2011.01.15 07:00 - stoicism et al

The Guardian for this meeting was Bertram Jacobus. The comments are by Bertram Jacobus.

Arisia Vita: Hi Corvi, and Lugh
Corvuscorva Nightfire: well....yes.....I would agree...but then again...I hold that there is a something, too...Hi, Arisia!
Corvuscorva Nightfire: which I am interpreting as "rain"
Lugh Fehr: somthing that is raining?
Lugh Fehr: heyy arisia
Arisia Vita: hope you are well and happy Lugh
Corvuscorva Nightfire: perhaps simply appearances arising from appearances, my interpretation being yet another arising from all of that. "it's raining"
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Arisia, we are discussing the origins of the universe
Arisia Vita: ah, wonderful
Corvuscorva Nightfire: or rather "what is"
Lugh Fehr: hehe tnx i hope you are happy lso
Arisia Vita: any conclusions yet?
Corvuscorva Nightfire grins.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: laughs
Corvuscorva Nightfire: of course not!
Arisia Vita: I am glad the universe allowed our paths to cross just now, may they never diverge...
Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles warmly.
--BELL--
Arisia Vita: welcome Arch
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Lugh...I like your interpretation of the universe, and I hope that my gentle disagreement was not disagreeable.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hiya Arch!
Arisia Vita: to have differences is a blessing...
Arisia Vita: Friends learn from differences and love from similarities.
Lugh Fehr: hey arch hehe the disagreement was a disagreeing
Corvuscorva Nightfire: hehehee
Arisia Vita: welcome Bert
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi Bert
Bertram Jacobus: ty ari and hello all :-)
Lugh Fehr: hey bert
Archmage Atlantis: Hi, Bert.......I was unsure of who would claim the log......I did so....please claim it as this is your GoC meeeting
Archmage Atlantis: That is probably something I shoul have said in im
Bertram Jacobus: i´m very thankful that people take it over - i´m such a bad guardian - forget it sometimes ... so tyVm arch - and yes, i´ll do so
Bertram Jacobus: same here lol
Corvuscorva Nightfire giggles at you two.
Archmage Atlantis: ty Cor, laughter is the better way *grin*
Bertram Jacobus: better then crying ? :-)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: smiles. Well, more enjoyable most of the time, anyway.
Bertram Jacobus: or is it "better as" ?
Archmage Atlantis: yes, Bert.....and better than being stoic
Arisia Vita: welcome Satia
Corvuscorva Nightfire: definitely better than THAT in my mind. Hello, Satia.
Satia Ruby: HEL-LOOOOO =)
Satia Ruby: and thanks :-)
Bertram Jacobus: hy sweetheart
Archmage Atlantis: welcome satia
Bertram Jacobus: what was in your mind corvi ?
Satia Ruby: sorry i´m lagging :-/
Archmage Atlantis: Probably some extraterristrial alien shiek
Corvuscorva Nightfire: the horrors of stoicism, Bertram.
Bertram Jacobus: oh. i see corvi. why is that ?! ;-)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: ooof...hmmm...
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I think that I see stoicism as "stuffing" feelings...which has been a painful thing in my life. Like eating sandspurs.
Bertram Jacobus: and what is the difference between stoicism and a meditative quietness ...
Corvuscorva Nightfire: mmm...
Corvuscorva Nightfire: THAT I see as "not eating sandspurs"
Bertram Jacobus: yes. and couldn´t one switch to it - isn´t it close ?
--BELL--
Corvuscorva Nightfire: not one bit. polar opposites.
Arisia Vita: welcome stevenaia
stevenaia Michinaga: morning, Hi Corvi, LTNS
Bertram Jacobus: but both are quiet corvi ?
Bertram Jacobus: and hi steven
Corvuscorva Nightfire: yeah both are quiet, but one is a soundproof room and one is a pagoda
Corvuscorva Nightfire giggles.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: at least...that's how I see the difference
Bertram Jacobus: wow - "okay" ...
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Clearly you see it differently, would you mind sharingyour vision?
Lugh Fehr: im reading the wiki on stoics very intresting
Bertram Jacobus: but ... where does the stoicism comes from and aren´t there also things besides it ?
Bertram Jacobus: me ?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: mmm.....could you clarify more?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: nods, smiling..mmmhmm
Bertram Jacobus: hm - sry. may be i expressed something wrongly. i only have the vision of mediative quietness. and would like to understand how stoicism may "work" - so i wanted to ask you about it ... ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: hi bruce :-)
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Bruce. Observerm
Corvuscorva Nightfire: listens,thinks...
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I suspect what I am thinking of is not "stoicism" in any classical sense.
Lugh Fehr: i thinck i like the stoics
Bruce Mowbray: Good day, Arch, Arisia, stevenaia, Corvus, satia, Bert, and Lugh!
Bruce Mowbray: whew!
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I am thinking of what I think of as stoicism....like..."not complaining"
Bertram Jacobus: but i did not want to push or insist corvi ! hope, taht is not an impression or similar what occured now
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Heya Bruce!
Lugh Fehr: godday
Corvuscorva Nightfire: oh no, Bertram...I am in an idea batting around mood...which can look a little aggressive.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I don't feel angry or upset, and I am sorry if it appears that way.
Bertram Jacobus: but as you described it before, it seems not to be a nice state of mind, feeling stoical (?) ...
Bertram Jacobus: not at all corvi
Corvuscorva Nightfire: it does not feel like a nice state of mined. It feels like alot of bottled energy.
Bertram Jacobus: ah i see ... a little bit ... ty for explaining it, making it a bit more clear, sharing it ! ...
Corvuscorva Nightfire: thank you, Bertram!
Bertram Jacobus: but being aware and reacting, thinking - all that seems to be possible ...
Corvuscorva Nightfire: nods...like the beginning of "the big bang"
Corvuscorva Nightfire: laughs
Bertram Jacobus: only not the mood to act - may be ? and that is something, i often notice : acting is not too wide spread sometimes, especially in chats - again : may be ...
Bertram Jacobus: yeah !
Bertram Jacobus: you have wonderful pictures , allegories corvi ! :-)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: laughs..oh, Bertram, thank you.
Bertram Jacobus: and i can´t help : all that sounds to me so close to the "wu wei" idea - only as one comparison ...
Corvuscorva Nightfire: listens.
--BELL--
Bertram Jacobus: i have not much more to say about it - if the "wu wei" is known (?)
Lugh Fehr: i thinck they got a good point if philosofy is not beneficial to life why practise it at all
Corvuscorva Nightfire: nods to lugh...what IS a stoic?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: really...in philosopy, I mean?
Bertram Jacobus: yes, beneficial ...
Bertram Jacobus: without an option for the transcendental or so to call absolute, i don´t see any benefits in all those more abstract teachings ...
Lugh Fehr: it seems a rare thing for philosofers to discouse somthing that could be actually benefitial in itself
Bertram Jacobus: really ? i thought philosophists would love to play with thoughts, no ?
Lugh Fehr: yes but mostly i hear of metafisical and stuff like that not how to have a good relationsphip whit people or somthing
Lugh Fehr: like the far off problems not the here and now
Bertram Jacobus: ah yes. i see and agree. and that´s why i prefere religions instead of philosophy
Bruce Mowbray: By definition, philosophers love to pursue "wisdom." And part of that pursuit is "ethics" - which involves human relationships.
Bertram Jacobus: but it seems to me that philosophers tend to handle things much more complicated as it would be necessairy or needed
Bertram Jacobus: can be much more simple
Lugh Fehr: like how to generate a happy feeling
Lugh Fehr: not how to find everlasting meaning and happines
Lugh Fehr: hehehe
Bertram Jacobus: my means for that are good actions and meditation
Bruce Mowbray wonders if it is possible to "generate happiness. Think happiness is a by-product of behavior and thinking - not a direct product, goal, or achievement in itself.
stevenaia Michinaga: RL calls, see you all soon
Lugh Fehr: i thinck it is the only achivement we search and thincking and behaiver a by product hehe the exact other way round
Bertram Jacobus: it may be seen as a matter of the view angle bruce ...
Lugh Fehr: byebye
Bertram Jacobus: bye steven ...
Bertram Jacobus: it may be seen as a matter of the view angle bruce and lugh ... :o)
Lugh Fehr: yeah i thinck they are both right from different perspectives
Bertram Jacobus: and i agree once more to you lugh, with the claim "all beings want to be happy and avoid suffering" ...
--BELL--
Lugh Fehr: is unhappieness a sickness?
Bruce Mowbray: excellent question, Lugh.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: a "dis-ease?'
Bertram Jacobus: again a question of the view angle i´d say ...
Lugh Fehr: mabey a sickness of the mind only exsists in the mind
Bertram Jacobus: hehe corvi ! :-)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: giggles.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: an old pun.
Lugh Fehr: :)
Bertram Jacobus: i don´t think, that we can divide things completely. i think, taht all seems to be linked with everything. so also the mind ...
Corvuscorva Nightfire: illness: impairment of normal physiological function affecting part or all of an organism defectiveness or unsoundness; "drugs have become a sickness they cannot cure"; "a great sickness of his judgment" nausea: the state that precedes vomiting
Corvuscorva Nightfire: wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webw
Bertram Jacobus: so sickness of mind may affect also so called material things - like the EEG shows : the mind moves the needle ...
Corvuscorva Nightfire: do these work as definitions of sickness?
Bruce Mowbray: "Happiness" and "sickness" are also concepts that are influenced by our mental "framing" and language. . .
Bruce Mowbray: for example, I heard a TV commercial say, "We have a cure for baldness...."
Bruce Mowbray: Since when is BALDNESS a DISEASE?
Lugh Fehr: hehehe
Bruce Mowbray: even though our "happiness" supposedly depends upon our not being bald. . . (?) so that makes BALDNESS a disease. . . ?
Lugh Fehr: a disease is somthing unwanted by the consepts of mind
Lugh Fehr: even if we are dieing only the mind is capable of complining about it
Corvuscorva Nightfire: of course if you can get some loving while bald, or if finding a partner ceases to become a concern, or if you can come to understand that most people are more interested in who you are than your appearance and that some people find you sexy bald
Corvuscorva Nightfire: baldness ceases to cause "dis-ease"
Bruce Mowbray: Well, then, for many people baldness and many other perfectly natural and normal processes will be thought of as "diseases."
Corvuscorva Nightfire blushes.
Lugh Fehr: well if you have an ugly nose it can lead you to surgery
Lugh Fehr: same repercutions as haveing a phisical pain
Corvuscorva Nightfire: but who SAYS it's ugly?
Bertram Jacobus: sry friends, i´ll leave - ty all very much for the chat - and may all beings be happy pls ! ...
Lugh Fehr: your mind
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I mean...some folks I find very attractive have large noses.
Lugh Fehr: byebye
Bruce Mowbray: saw a thing on TV yesterday about young kids having plastic surgery because other kids were bullying them for their physical appearance.
Alfred Kelberry: hi :)
Bruce Mowbray: translation: in order to be happy, I need to look like others think I should look.
Lugh Fehr: a disise that can only be cured by surgery
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Boxy!
Lugh Fehr: ?*
Alfred Kelberry: good to see it's not empty :)
Lugh Fehr: hey alf
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hiay, Alf
Satia Ruby: i have to leave too
Corvuscorva Nightfire: nods to Bruce.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye, Satia
Bruce Mowbray: Look out, Boxy! You're right in the line of fire from Arch's fireballs.
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Lugh Fehr: byebye i am going to eat somthing hehe
Alfred Kelberry: what are they for?
Bruce Mowbray wonders if Boxy has every considered plastic surgery. . . or a "cure" for baldness.
Bruce Mowbray: ever*
Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Lugh.
Alfred Kelberry: um, not really :)
Bruce Mowbray: Good! You're fine just as you are. . . (and don't let anyone persuade you differently).
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye LUgh!
Alfred Kelberry: i might do lasik one day
Arisia Vita: I must fly too my friends
Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye, Arisia
Arisia Vita: be well and happy
Corvuscorva Nightfire: smiles
Alfred Kelberry: fly safely :)
Bruce Mowbray: You too, Arisia.
Arisia Vita: ty!
Bruce Mowbray: Have a happy weekend.
--BELL--
Bruce Mowbray: Must be gone . May all be well and happy.
Alfred Kelberry: ok, i'm off as well
Alfred Kelberry: it's been a nice short visit :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I too, must go...real life calls.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye!