2011.10.14 06:00 - Regarding Reality: Protective Shells and Healing Caves

This is the second session of "Regarding Reality", an exploration based on the writings of Maxine Walden... 

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Wester!
Wester Kiranov: hi eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Nice that you could make it
Wester Kiranov: yeah - is the time/reality workshop here? or somewhere else?
Eliza Madrigal: Here... in just a few minutes :)
Wester Kiranov: good
Eliza Madrigal: It feels good to meet again at this time
Wester Kiranov: yes :-)
Wester Kiranov: hi maxine
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Maxine :)

--BELL--

Maxine Walden: hi, Wester, nice to see you!
Maxine Walden: hi, Eliza, nice to see you too
Eliza Madrigal: ty :)
Maxine Walden: I appreciated your putting our discussion here on the wiki last week, Eliza. Thanks so much
Eliza Madrigal: Most welcome Maxine. What a lovely discussion
Eliza Madrigal: the feeling of it stayed with me the week
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Maxine Walden: Ah, it was a nice way to begin our discussion. We began to speak about some of the things which interfere with our inner harmony, Wester
Wester Kiranov: hi pema
Maxine Walden: And how we can withdraw into an inner place (snailshell) to protect ourselves, but really hide from ourselves and the world
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Pema :) Hi Bruce :)
Pema Pera: hi everybody!
Maxine Walden: hi, Pema, I was just reviewing some of our discussion from lat week for Wester.
Wester Kiranov: sounds like the "cocoon" in Shambhala
Maxine Walden: hi, Bruce
Maxine Walden: ah, likely so, Wester
Wester Kiranov: hi bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Hello, everyone.
Wester Kiranov: hi yaku
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ya :)
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Yaku.
Pema Pera: good afternoon, Yaku!
Maxine Walden: hi, Yaku
Maxine Walden: Are we ready to being our continue our discussion? Or should we wait a couple of minutes
Maxine Walden: begin
Maxine Walden: begin as being
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Pema Pera: I'm ready :)
Eliza Madrigal: being ready too
Maxine Walden: :)
Wester Kiranov: ready
Maxine Walden: OK...
Maxine Walden: Just letting thoughts gather again...thought we might just ponder the very human experience of having feelings at times which are more than we can bear to experience.
Bruce Mowbray: me too.
Maxine Walden: Lots of times as children we can feel overwhelmed and indeed pulled apart by emotions too large to bear, and that pulled apart feeling can make us feel so small we wish to pull away from the world, certainly from the feelings
Maxine Walden: But even as 'grownups' we can wary of such feelings, because of the threat to our well being
Maxine Walden: And so the fullness of emotion or expcerience which can actually help us to grow and more deeply experience ourselves and the world, makes us instead go into a shell of some kind, our snailshell of last week's discussion
Maxine Walden: Also from that vulnerable place of 'smallness' we can see the outer world in a way which makes us feel even smaller: such as 'he is so calm and I am so nervous' or 'he knows so much because he is so calm....and I feel so small in comparison'
Maxine Walden: That painful experience of seeing something which indeed may be food for thought (what he/she might be able to teach me) but seeing it as a threat to one's self esteem.
Maxine Walden: Being unable to learn because 'I should know it all, or should be able to do it, know it, myself'
Maxine Walden: Ironically we encounter this among our colleagues and friends, maybe even within ourselves, from this 'shell' of 'should have everything I need to make it in the world'
Eliza Madrigal: mmm
Maxine Walden: (shall I pause here ?)
Pema Pera: yes, very recognizable, Maxine! "more than we can bear" . . . ."more than we (mistakenly) think we can bear"? --- there are two elements, that what seems overwhelming, outside of us, and that which convinces us of the "I can't" in can't bear which is inside us . . . .
Maxine Walden: yes, Pema!
Eliza Madrigal: just very soothing... as I recognize what you are saying my shoulders relax and relax

--BELL--

Maxine Walden: and perhaps the inner sense of fragility convinces us we cannot bear the outer intensity...makes us feel even more fragile toward the world and its challenges
Bruce Mowbray hopes we'll distinguish between "Silence/solitude as a healing cave" and cocoon/snailshell.
Wester Kiranov: that's a good point, bruce
Maxine Walden: very nice wondering, Bruce. Would you like to share your thought Bruceon that and we can discuss?
Maxine Walden: on that, Bruce, and we can discuss?
Eliza Madrigal: Hi oO0Oo, have given you a note :)
Bruce Mowbray: Just "hoping" in silence -- except inward questions. . . and being a solitary myself. . .
Bruce Mowbray listens.
oO0Oo Resident: :) Hi everyone! ::listens::
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, 0.
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Adams.
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Adams :) Note on the way
Maxine Walden: My thought as well, Bruce. Hoping in silence I think is residing in more openness; the snailshell is laced with dread
Adams Kira: Hello. Sorry to be late and interrupt
Maxine Walden: hi, Adams, glad you could come
Maxine Walden: that inner atmosphere so affects our 'view' of the world and our safety in it.
Pema Pera: there is a path from "I can't bear" to "I don't need to bear" -- not fighting the "can't" but dropping the notion of "bearing", the sensed need for struggle
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen :)
Wester Kiranov: hi zen
Zen Arado: Hi all
Zen Arado: sorry I'm ruthed
Eliza Madrigal: the shell to me seems retreat unaware.. without intention
Maxine Walden: agree, perhaps dropping the 'can't' or facing it in some way which defangs the fear
Zen Arado: tr Eliza
Maxine Walden: say more, Eliza?
Eliza Madrigal: considering that retreating to a cave of silence there is knowing embrace...
Eliza Madrigal: whereas the shell I see after some accident...
Eliza Madrigal: something like that
Maxine Walden: shell resorted to after some perceived trauma?
Maxine Walden: or endangering event?
Eliza Madrigal: perhaps yet, stored up at the ready
Eliza Madrigal: *yes
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Wester Kiranov: you can retreat for a moment, and know you'll be back - but the shell is not meant to be temporary
Eliza Madrigal: mmm
Maxine Walden: For me, one way to think about the basic 'trauma' is whether I feel myself to have been shattered in some way, by trauma, by humiliation, etc...and if I feel such I am likely to resort to a shell, not expecting I can recover, at least not easily recover because of the depth of the inner experience of trauma
Maxine Walden: The potential tragedy of doing so, resorting to a firmly protective shell, is that I then may perceive the 'world out there' to be dangerous and take up an attitude of such that I then do not further test. I develop the ongoing illusion of a dangerous world out there, and live as such
Bruce Mowbray likes the notion of "retreat" --- then, shaking off the dust, remounting, and ridinging on (echoes of Wol)
Maxine Walden: out of harmony with that outer world because I am also out of harmony with my inner world...
Bruce Mowbray: riding*
Pema Pera: like breaking a leg and walking the rest of your life with a cast . . .
Wester Kiranov: I don't feel you need a trrauma to create a shell. To me, it's more like the basic mechanism "I'm not grumpy, he was offensive"
Maxine Walden: yes...nice, or rather vivid image, Pema
Maxine Walden: :) agree, Wester
Wester Kiranov: or even "I know I'm grumpy, but it's still his fault that I became agry/sad"
Wester Kiranov: *angry
Eliza Madrigal nods Wester... this is that hidden aspect was thinking of too... taken for granted.... closet full of shells
Maxine Walden: would you think of that as a kind of projection of my grimpiness, Wester? Attributing it to 'him' or the blame to him?
Maxine Walden: One of the problem with 'shells' is that we cannot take full accountability for ourselves and our states of mind; they are 'due to others'

--BELL--

Wester Kiranov: Almost. The mood colors what I see, even makes me see or not see things.
Maxine Walden: agree
Wester Kiranov: I only see certain aspects of things (inevitably) and what aspects I see is colored by my mood
Wester Kiranov: and hten I blame those aspects on how they resonate with my mood
Wester Kiranov: but those aspects really are there, i just could have chosen to focus on different ones, and I don't know that
Zen Arado: a shell protects but also suffocates...reminds me of the koan about the chick in the egg and the mother hen tapping on the outside to release it
Maxine Walden: are you thinking of 'mood' as a potential shell? or lens through which we view the world?
Zen Arado: so ideally shells should be removed as soon as possib;e..but only at the right time?
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Druth :) note forthcoming
druth Vlodovic: ty
Zen Arado: Hi Druth
Wester Kiranov: the mood is the lens, but when you reify it I think it could be a shell
Bruce Mowbray: When fearful/grumpt I tend to literalize everything -- when lighter and aware, I tend to dance in the moment, lighter.
Bruce Mowbray: grumpy*
Maxine Walden: :) timing, Zen: when is the shell protective, and when does it become suffocating?
Pema Pera nods at Bruce
Zen Arado: and who knows..the chick or the mother?
Eliza Madrigal nods
Maxine Walden: For me, Bruce brings up an interesting point: when I feel grumpy or jagged I become more 'literal', less lyrical
Zen Arado: or they both know?
Pema Pera: like with a broken leg, for a while a cast is a good enclosure
Eliza Madrigal: resonates with my experience too, re concretizing...
Maxine Walden: who knows, Zen, hopefully the sense of timeing from a sensitive but not too intrusive mother may help
Bruce Mowbray: For the chick, the shell becomes a gate . . .
Zen Arado: maybe we know if we stop thnking....intuitively
Zen Arado: know intuitively I mean
Adams Kira: Speaking of the chick, we can inherit shells from our parents which are difficult to recognize
Maxine Walden: I find that whenever I am not able to be fully present with myself, when out of harmony, than I concretize at least to some extent
Eliza Madrigal nods Adams
Zen Arado: yes Adams
Eliza Madrigal: shells instead of blankets
Maxine Walden: agree, Adams, care to say more?
Adams Kira: Parents can pass on "predjudices" as one example
Maxine Walden: nodding
Adams Kira: Just to be fair, we can pass on shells to our children too :)
Maxine Walden: :)
Zen Arado: an agressive parent might drive us into one
Eliza Madrigal: yes, often hidden fears that may be unreasonable but haven't been looked at
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Johanm (will give you a note and IM you about the session)
Zen Arado: Hi Johann
Johanm89 Resident: HI
Maxine Walden: from generation to generation...we can pass our 'assumptions' or patterns of 'how to be' along
Maxine Walden: with no awareness at allof doing so.
Adams Kira: yes Maxine
druth Vlodovic: I like to hope that the shells I grow around my children have an exit they can use from time to time, making them more of a safe refuge during exploration
Eliza Madrigal: :)) Druth, nice
Pema Pera: yes, a shell less upbringing would be terrible, impossible even
Maxine Walden: protective shells with breathing holes...
Pema Pera: :-)
Eliza Madrigal: nice to remember that shells themselves aren't inherently 'wrong'
Adams Kira: :)
Maxine Walden: agree, having no shell from one's parents would 'feel' like not being held at all, perhaps even being lost in space
Eliza Madrigal: mmm
Pema Pera: this pavilion here in space, and this meeting in time, are very helpful shells . . . .
Johanm89 Resident: yes
Maxine Walden: :) yes

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal smiles - shells with a 90 second cave
Maxine Walden: :)
Wester Kiranov: I think we should keep an eye on the distinction between shell and healing cave...
Adams Kira thinking about the levels of the barriers around us some os easily deaslt with and others taking much work to recognize
Adams Kira: so easily dealt with*
druth Vlodovic: I like the image of the snail shell, since I carry mine around with me :)
Pema Pera: support is needed everywhere: a glass supports the water it holds
Pema Pera: a container
Maxine Walden: (at the recent Vashon retreat the lighthouse, we learned was built with a foundation of 90 creosoted timbers, and thus is earthquake proof due to the sway power of the timbers..) a kind of flexible foundation, variation of flexible shell/protection
druth Vlodovic: so we take our shape from our shells?
Pema Pera: not if we can be like water :-)
Pema Pera: but yes, to some degree for sure
Eliza Madrigal: Wonderful, Maxine
Maxine Walden: :)
Eliza Madrigal: 'sway power of the timbers'
Maxine Walden: perhaps taking the shape of our parents' 'glass' as shaping our view according to how we were 'held' b them
Bruce Mowbray: A backpack may serve better than a shell -- without the self-constriction of shells -- then "drop" the pack, at intervals.
druth Vlodovic: but metaphors are so much fun!
Eliza Madrigal: :))
druth Vlodovic: you can play with them until they break
Bruce Mowbray: ;-) oh yeah.
Adams Kira: A man walks into a bar and says "I'll have the container he is drinking from"
Eliza Madrigal: Like that Bruce.... if we can drop for a moment there may come space to see what to re-pick up, or not
Maxine Walden: :))
Wester Kiranov: metaphors are actually easier to play with and keep fluid than many other parts of language, I think
Wester Kiranov: and all language shapes the way we think
Maxine Walden: language as a container or giver of shape to our nascent thoughts?
Wester Kiranov: or a seed for thoughts...
Adams Kira: I think the main problem with metaphors is when we forget they are metaphors
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Wester Kiranov: to use a different metaphor :)
Bruce Mowbray: the metaphor is a way of mapping -- but not the terriroty
Eliza Madrigal: and why do so? connection?
Bruce Mowbray: territory*
Maxine Walden: :) agree, and when we consider them, metaphhors, as 'concrete truths'
druth Vlodovic: I guess a metaphor is a kind of protective shell, it guards us from directly experiencing the subject, giving us objective distance
Maxine Walden: hmm, druth, interesting
Wester Kiranov: how are metaphors more of a shell than the rest of language?
Eliza Madrigal: climbing up metaphors in order to connect feels hard, whereas connecting then flowing down into metaphor often can feel refreshing
Maxine Walden: beautiful thought, Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: considering the effort aspect...
Maxine Walden: flowing down into metaphor...without too much effort
Eliza Madrigal: 'dropping the bearing aspect' ala earlier Pema
Bruce Mowbray: metaphors lubricate the space between realms - enabling participation.
Pema Pera: offering somebody a rose is presenting a nonverbal metaphor . . . to some extent most if not all of our communication is metaphoric
Eliza Madrigal nods
Maxine Walden: agree
Pema Pera: and how we handle it, as Eliza said, determines the quality
Wester Kiranov: right, we couldn't have this conversation without metaphor
Pema Pera: :-)
Zen Arado: but don't they entrap us into ways of thought?
Eliza Madrigal: not inherently?
Wester Kiranov: only if we reify them
Zen Arado: by their cery effectiveness?
Zen Arado: vey*
Pema Pera: just noticed a parallel between bull's and bear's market: bullying and bearing -- never thought about that
Adams Kira: )
Bruce Mowbray: only if we buy into their "maps" as "literalisms," Zen.
Maxine Walden: :)) lovely thought, Pema!!
Eliza Madrigal: :)
oO0Oo Resident: wow

--BELL--

Adams Kira: They do the bullying and we do the bearing. hehe
Pema Pera: thank you so much Maxine, and everybody, for a lovely session of RR
Pema Pera: Rest and relaxation? regarding reality?
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, thanks Maxine and everyone.
Wester Kiranov: have to go, guys, sorry. rl calling
Eliza Madrigal giggles @ Adams and yes Thanks much Maxine, everyone!
Bruce Mowbray: Hi Luci.
Maxine Walden: Lovely conversation, everyone.
Wester Kiranov: thank you all!
Adams Kira: Thanks you maxine and everyone :)
Eliza Madrigal: "the foolish are trapped by karma and the wise released by it' - stonepeace quote
Zen Arado: thanks everyone
Maxine Walden: see you next time
Zen Arado: nice Eliza
Pema Pera: bye for now
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Boots.
Eliza Madrigal wavess