2008.07.08 19:00 - Different Ways of Perceiving Being

 

(Comments from Sylectra)

 

Adams and Neela already were in the Pavilion when I arrived.

[19:00] You: Hi Adams, Neela

[19:01] Adams Rubble: Hi Sylectra

[19:01] Neela Blaisdale: Hi Sylectra

At this point Pema popped in.

[19:01] Neela Blaisdale: Hi Pema

[19:01] Adams Rubble: Hi Pema

[19:01] You: Hi Pema!!

[19:01] You: How is everybody?

[19:01] Pema Pera: Hi Adams, Neela, Syl!

[19:02] Adams Rubble: I am fine

[19:02] You: Good deal, I am better now that I am here with you

[19:02] Neela Blaisdale: Me too, SL is so calming

Friedrich joined the group.

[19:03] Neela Blaisdale: Especially in this area

[19:03] You: Sweet people like yourselves are so calming

[19:03] Neela Blaisdale: :)

[19:03] Adams Rubble: :)

[19:03] Pema Pera: Hi Fred!

[19:03] Friedrich Ochsenhorn: hey hey

[19:03] Adams Rubble: Hi Fred

[19:03] You: Hey Friedrich!

[19:04] Neela Blaisdale: Hello Fred

[19:04] You: I hear you but don't see you

[19:04] Friedrich Ochsenhorn: boo!

[19:04] Pema Pera: For me too, these meetings are stations of calm in the middle of a very busy period in my life

[19:04] Friedrich Ochsenhorn: like a good child? or is that the other way around? (seen, not heard?)

[19:04] You: THERE you are!

Pia joined us at that moment.

[19:05] Adams Rubble: Hello Pia

[19:05] You: Hi Pia!

[19:05] Neela Blaisdale: Hi Pia

[19:05] Pema Pera: Hi Pia!

[19:05] Pia Iger: Hi, Friends.

[19:05] Friedrich Ochsenhorn: hi pia

[19:05] You: Fred, I am glad you didn't use the other form of that saying, which would be like a good wife, haha

[19:05] Friedrich Ochsenhorn: snicker. well, its good to be seen.

[19:06] Neela Blaisdale: and heard!

[19:07] Pia Iger: I just read today 1pm blog, now it is posted so fast.

[19:07] Pia Iger: on wiki

[19:07] Adams Rubble: Fael and I have a very different view of Being :)

[19:07] You: Oh that's great!

[19:08] Pema Pera: tell us all about it, Adams!

[19:08] Pia Iger: yes. interesting confliction.

[19:08] Adams Rubble: Well, I started working on anxiety yesterday...

[19:08] Adams Rubble: and somehow it switched to Being

Stevenaia popped in and waited to fully “rez”.

[19:08] You: Steven!

[19:08] Pema Pera: Hi Steve!

[19:09] Pia Iger: Hi Steve!

[19:09] Adams Rubble: and I think I began to understand Being a bit

[19:09] You: Adams, you have a knack for this stuff! smiles

[19:09] stevenaia Michinaga: hello

[19:09] Friedrich Ochsenhorn: hey steve

[19:09] You: Steve, come sit by me

[19:09] Neela Blaisdale: Hello Steven

[19:09] Adams Rubble: and I see it as a large, all encompassing thing

[19:09] Adams Rubble: Hello Steven

[19:09] Adams Rubble: sort of like a very abstract God

[19:09] stevenaia Michinaga: one moment, I don;t want to sit on anyone..uninvited anyway

[19:10] Adams Rubble: in any case I have been thinking that out on my log the last couple of days

[19:10] Adams Rubble: Fael sent me a message questioning my viewpoint

[19:10] Adams Rubble: and we discussed it today at the 1 pm session

[19:10] Friedrich Ochsenhorn catches up on the past

[19:10] Adams Rubble: Fael sees Being from an individual standpoint

[19:11] Pia Iger: quote: Fael Illyar: Wouldn't surprise me. Although, the funny thing is that claiming Being is exactly you also screams incorrect to me :P

[19:11] Adams Rubble: a small Being so to speak

[19:11] Adams Rubble: I don;t want to misquote Fael

[19:11] Pia Iger: I just copied from the blog.

[19:12] Adams Rubble: I am thinking that fael and I are approaching this from different ends

[19:12] You: but perhaps there is room to play with our concept of being?

Bertrum had just arrived. The conversation was moving toward the dichotomy of perception about what is Being and how you can know if you have glimpsed/experienced it.

[19:12] You: Hello Bertrum!

[19:12] Pema Pera: Hi Bert!

[19:12] Adams Rubble: I think Fael has had more of a personal experience than I have

[19:12] Bertrum Quan: Hi

[19:12] Pia Iger: Hello, Bert.

[19:12] Adams Rubble: Hi Bertram

[19:12] Neela Blaisdale: Wouldn't the Zen view be that is both you and not you at the same time

[19:12] Adams Rubble: I am approaching this from the other end

[19:12] stevenaia Michinaga: Degrees of personal experience..?

[19:12] Neela Blaisdale: Hello Bert

[19:13] You: smiles

[19:13] Adams Rubble: Yes Steve

[19:13] stevenaia Michinaga: thinking you have one or you don't

[19:13] stevenaia Michinaga: t

[19:14] Adams Rubble: Yes I don't

[19:15] stevenaia Michinaga: so your Being experience is personal?

[19:15] Adams Rubble: So I guess I am wondering if we both are looking in the right direction

[19:15] Adams Rubble: Steve, mine is not personal

[19:15] Adams Rubble: not that I don;t think it can be

[19:15] Adams Rubble: I just have not experienced it yet

[19:16] stevenaia Michinaga: I wonder how that is possible? right unless you haven;t had one, or haven;t recognized it for what it is

[19:16] Friedrich Ochsenhorn: i once had a teacher explain to me that we somehow need to /simultaneously/ recognize that we are the center of the universe, at the same time recognize our infinitesimal insignificance in the face of all-there-is

[19:16] Pema Pera: I have not read the 1 pm blog, nor Adams' recent blog entries; will do that soon! As for what Being is, and how we can deal with it, or how it can deal with us, that's a question that I expect will unfold here over months and years . . . . but glad to see the discussion starting!

[19:16] You: I like that

[19:16] Adams Rubble: Steve, I don;t quite understand what you are saying

[19:17] Pema Pera: Yes, Fred, both!

[19:17] Adams Rubble: I think I agree Fred

[19:17] Neela Blaisdale: I also

[19:17] Pia Iger: nods to what Fred said.

[19:17] Neela Blaisdale: Agree with freds teacher

[19:18] Pia Iger: thanks for correction. Neela:)

[19:19] Friedrich Ochsenhorn: tnx. well, its plenty to juggle, and words don't help that much.

[19:19] stevenaia Michinaga: Being is what we are.. whether we see it in ourselves or not, in time I sure you you will, I view us all as wired for Being, just a matter of making the connections over time to see that.

[19:19] Pia Iger: since I quote Fael above, feel need to quote the other sentence she said to give a whole pic. "Fael Illyar: But for some reason trying to hold that Being is something larger than you just screams "not correct" to me.'

[19:19] stevenaia Michinaga: you are just asking "Are we there yet"

[19:19] Friedrich Ochsenhorn: hehe

[19:20] Pema Pera: What is essential is that we find new degrees of freedom in the world and life we thought we already knew . . . .

[19:20] Pema Pera: very direct, very experimental

[19:20] Pema Pera: in your face

[19:20] Pema Pera: words come later

[19:20] Pema Pera: to share, communicate, help each other to see better

[19:21] Adams Rubble: Thank you Steve and Pema

[19:21] Pia Iger: woops, Neela disappeared

Pia describes her experience washing dishes.

[19:22] Pia Iger: I have been avoiding to use the word Being,

[19:22] Pia Iger: since I did feel I really understand it

[19:22] Pia Iger: but today when I was washing dishes

[19:22] Adams Rubble: I was too until yesterday :)

[19:22] Pia Iger: the cool water ran over my hands

[19:23] Pia Iger: I suddenly feel: this is being. The word just came out automatically

[19:23] Pia Iger: *since I did not

[19:24] Pia Iger: or the word came out from the inside of myself.

[19:24] Pema Pera: That's a very nice and direct description, Pia

[19:24] You: wow, Pia

[19:24] Pema Pera: that is how we really need to start, to communicate

[19:24] Pema Pera: and from there we can circle outward to concepts, theories . . . .

[19:25] stevenaia Michinaga: examples are a wonderful starting place to share

[19:26] You: I love analogies because the force my brain to perceive something differently, but along structured pattern lines

[19:27] Pema Pera: art can help here too

[19:27] stevenaia Michinaga: art?

[19:27] Adams Rubble likes art

[19:28] Pema Pera: I remember Miyazaki's anime movie Princess Momonoke, where it started to rain, and then you saw a single close up of a single rain drop landing in a puddle

[19:28] Pema Pera: somehow it gave me the shivers

[19:28] Pema Pera: wb Neela!

[19:29] Neela Blaisdale: Thanks had very bad lag but I can't see you all yet

The discussion began to move into the difference between an active and a passive approach, between grasping for and discovering Being.

[19:29] Pema Pera: Being is at the base of everything, that's why we cannot find it when we search, but we can recognize it sometimes in its ongoing expressions, as Pia indicated

[19:29] Pema Pera: and more and more we can feel it penetrating our lives

[19:29] Pema Pera: from the inside out

[19:30] Pema Pera: nothing is outside Being

[19:30] Pema Pera: all is expressions of Being

[19:30] Pema Pera: Being is closer to us than our skin

[19:30] Pema Pera: closer than our emotions

[19:30] Pema Pera: closer than our thoughts

[19:30] Pema Pera: very very odd and strange . . . .

[19:30] Pema Pera: and yet totally natural, like a home coming . . . .

[19:31] Pema Pera: but yes, starting with examples seems best

[19:31] You: I love the contrast in what you said, Pema

[19:31] Pema Pera: like Fred's contrast

[19:32] Bertrum Quan: Pema, would you say when one begins to study the works of art over the ages, one begins to glimpse human collective consciousness?

[19:33] Pema Pera: Well, we ALL have had experiences of Being, but we generally don't tend to notice/know it . . . and all it takes is to have one clear sense of recognition, ideally with the help of a teacher who can give some additional guidance, and from there on Being can unfold all by itself, very naturally . . . .

[19:33] Pema Pera: so art can help

[19:33] Pema Pera: the smile of a child

[19:34] Pema Pera: water over dirty dishes

[19:34] Pema Pera: :)

[19:34] Bertrum Quan: What I'm suggesting, it art may be a way to get a sense of the magnitude...

[19:34] You: the icy rings around the moon on a cold night

[19:34] Bertrum Quan: from the outside...

[19:34] Pema Pera: Yes, it may help -- and anything may help, but the core is:

[19:34] Pema Pera: Being is the "AM" in I am

[19:35] Pema Pera: we can say "I am" every day

[19:35] Pema Pera: I am this I am that

[19:35] Pema Pera: I am happy

[19:35] Pema Pera: I am sad

[19:35] Pema Pera: but if we drop

[19:35] Pema Pera: I and happy and sad and everything

[19:35] Pema Pera: and REALLY focus on the AM

[19:35] Pema Pera: like with a magnifying glass

[19:35] Pema Pera: in bright sunlight

[19:35] Pema Pera: setting fire on a twig of wood

[19:35] Pema Pera: we can recognize AM

[19:36] Pema Pera: and hence Being

Pema transitions out with a silly goodbye.

[19:36] Pema Pera: Alas, . . .

[19:36] Pema Pera: . . . my colleagues have arrived

[19:36] Pema Pera: in RL here in Nakameguro

[19:36] Pema Pera: in Tokyo

[19:36] Pema Pera: and they're coming to take me away, haha,

[19:36] Pema Pera: . . . .

[19:36] You: lol

[19:36] Pema Pera: (to a happy farm?)

[19:36] You: That was great , Pema

[19:36] Neela Blaisdale: :)

[19:36] Adams Rubble: :)

[19:36] stevenaia Michinaga: you bringing them here?

[19:37] Pema Pera: would be nice!

[19:37] Pema Pera: but alas,

[19:37] Pema Pera: They're coming to take me away, HA HA They're coming to take me away, HO HO HEE HEE HA HA To the funny farm Where life is beautiful all the time

[19:37] stevenaia Michinaga: thanks for your comments pema, always

[19:37] You: LOL

[19:37] Pema Pera: see you soon, when I come out again :-)

[19:38] stevenaia Michinaga: I had that 45 pema

[19:38] You: Have fun, Pema

[19:38] Pema Pera: (this was an age check)

[19:38] Pia Iger: bye, Pema

[19:38] Pema Pera: bye everybody

[19:38] stevenaia Michinaga: before is was banned

[19:38] Adams Rubble: bye Pema, thanks :)

[19:38] Neela Blaisdale: Bye Pema

[19:38] Friedrich Ochsenhorn: ha ha, ho ho, he he

[19:38] stevenaia Michinaga: lol

[19:38] Bertrum Quan: bye

[19:38] You: A pleasure, Pema

[19:38] Pema Pera: bfn

[19:39] Pia Iger: Neela, were you typing something before your crashed?

[19:39] Pia Iger: I am still waiting... curiously

Words versus pictures for communicating ideas about Being.

[19:41] Neela Blaisdale: Yes I was saying in response to fred that I think words can be helpful especially when describing or sharing universal feelings, like laughing with Pema!

[19:41] You: smiles

[19:42] Friedrich Ochsenhorn: oh, I'm a big fan of words. but, they are often more confusing than clarifying

[19:42] You: that's an interesting debate I have heard here in this group

[19:42] You: It has many sides

[19:42] Pia Iger: on the other side, a good pc of art can speak more than thousands of word in a second

[19:43] Adams Rubble: I'd like to respond to something Bertram said

[19:43] You: OK..

[19:43] Adams Rubble: Art through the ages is at least as varied as the world today

[19:44] Friedrich Ochsenhorn: though, i wonder sometimes - art is great at posing questions, but I am not sure how well it presents answers

[19:44] Adams Rubble: some contradictory

[19:44] Adams Rubble: There are so many ideas and nuances

[19:44] You: Perhaps the questions matter as much or more...

[19:44] Adams Rubble: and so much art has been lost

[19:44] Friedrich Ochsenhorn: perhaps q/a is yet another false dichotomy to transcend, and asking the right questions is harder/more important than the answers

[19:44] Adams Rubble: I think we need to look at art works individually for meaning

[19:45] Adams Rubble: much as Pema is saying we should look for Being

[19:45] Adams Rubble: :)

[19:46] Bertrum Quan: My point was attempt move toward the magnitude of Being.

The micro and macro of Being.

[19:46] Friedrich Ochsenhorn: i forget which ancients claimed to find the universe in a grain of sand, but i imagine if you look at /anything/ closely enough you ought to be able to discern Being

[19:46] Bertrum Quan: In one sense we are all what went before and are...

[19:46] You: or maybe if you squint a little and tilt your head to the side...

[19:47] Friedrich Ochsenhorn: hard part is taking that proposition seriously, as more than just poetry

[19:47] Friedrich Ochsenhorn: heh

[19:47] Neela Blaisdale: So is it a question of the looking rather than the seeing?

[19:47] Adams Rubble: I agree with you on the magnitude Bertrum

[19:47] Adams Rubble: I maybe missed your point :)

[19:48] Bertrum Quan: Pema mention that art is helpful in seeing.

[19:48] Bertrum Quan: helpful

[19:49] Adams Rubble: Yes, often the artist points us to something that he/she sees

[19:50] Adams Rubble: Moon has been using the example of Japanese painters who focus on a single branch rather than a tree or a landscape

[19:50] Adams Rubble: Look at enough of them and soon that is what you see when you go outside

[19:51] Friedrich Ochsenhorn: heh. I'm thinking of Crumb's drawings of the visual urban clutter

[19:52] Adams Rubble: clutter/garbage/rubble has its own aesthetic :)

[19:52] Bertrum Quan: Yes. You can see magnitude in some Japanese woodblocks, for example. The focus of the image is off into infinity. The people are only small features in the frame.

[19:52] Adams Rubble: aesthetic

[19:52] Bertrum Quan: There is a sense of the larger world--Being,

[19:53] Friedrich Ochsenhorn: Adams: yes, my apartment is full of, aesthetic ;-)

[19:53] Adams Rubble: haha

[19:54] Bertrum Quan: There are micro and macro views of Being...

[19:54] Bertrum Quan: Each looking at it from a different perspective

[19:54] Bertrum Quan: In art, in life...

[19:55] Pia Iger: yes.

[19:55] Adams Rubble: and with friends?...the views of Fael and I

[19:55] You: that's fascinating

[19:55] Adams Rubble: approaching from different directions

[19:56] Adams Rubble: I hope so :)

[19:56] Pia Iger: could be:)

[19:56] Adams Rubble: (Fael and me)

[19:56] Friedrich Ochsenhorn: well, the theologians may have been onto something when they talked about not being able to ascribe any positive attributes to the divine. You could only express what it wasn't

[19:57] Adams Rubble: :)

[19:57] Friedrich Ochsenhorn: even the infinite is in-finite - not-finite

[19:59] You: does that sort of consign it to the negative space, though?

[19:59] Friedrich Ochsenhorn: well, it leaves it up to the imagination

[19:59] Friedrich Ochsenhorn: at best, you can gesture

[19:59] stevenaia Michinaga: I must go, see you all soon

[19:59] Friedrich Ochsenhorn: but, yeah, i think so. who knows.

[19:59] stevenaia Michinaga is Offline

[19:59] Friedrich Ochsenhorn: in-comprehensible (ultimately)

[19:59] You: oh, we lost Steven

[20:00] Adams Rubble: bye Steve

[20:00] Friedrich Ochsenhorn: though, we have been talking about the value in striving

[20:01] Neela Blaisdale: Goodnight all

[20:01] Pia Iger: Nite, Neela

[20:01] Adams Rubble: goodnight Neela

[20:01] Friedrich Ochsenhorn: yes, sadly i too will not-be here, momentarily

[20:01] You: nite, Neela

[20:01] Adams Rubble: bye Fred

[20:01] You: bye for now, Fred

[20:01] Bertrum Quan: bye

[20:01] Friedrich Ochsenhorn: cya! fun talking.. catch up soon.

[20:01] Pia Iger: bye

[20:02] Pia Iger: I enjoy everyone's different angles.

[20:02] You: wonderful conversation tonight

[20:03] Bertrum Quan: Many paths to the same place...

[20:03] Adams Rubble agrees with all that

[20:03] Pia Iger: Thanks for hosting this, Syl

[20:03] Adams Rubble: yes Syl

[20:04] You: anytime!

[20:04] You: Thank you guys as well

[20:04] Adams Rubble: I saw your house Pia, very nice

[20:04] Pia Iger: just the default hut . need to start to work on it.

[20:05] Pia Iger: I saw you have marshmallow in front of your house.

[20:05] Adams Rubble: and hot dogs :)

[20:05] Adams Rubble: help yourself

[20:05] You: haha

[20:05] You: cute

[20:05] Bertrum Quan: I'd like to see that!

[20:06] You: I have to be going too

[20:06] Adams Rubble: There's a fire and they're there for the taking :)

[20:06] You: Thanks all for a great discussion

[20:06] Adams Rubble: Good night all :)

[20:06] Pia Iger: cool, Adams.

[20:06] Bertrum Quan: Bye Syl

[20:06] Pia Iger: good night, all.

[20:06] You: Night!

[20:06] You: Take care, Pia!

[20:06] You: :)