2008.07.21 19:00 - Clear Cloudless Sky

Thorberg Nordlicht was the guardian. Pia Iger posted this log, no time to add the comments yet.

Thorberg Nordlicht: I see
Adelene Dawner: (I did the modifications myself, of course.)
doug Sosa: threedee is a real persona
Thorberg Nordlicht: hello Doug; join us; we were just commenting on Adelene's avatar
doug Sosa: amazing visual
Pia Iger: Hi, All,
doug Sosa: hi
Thorberg Nordlicht: hello Pia; take a look at Threedee and Adelene's avatars
Pia Iger: Can they move a bit?
doug Sosa: fabulous. great to be in such company and to feel (relatively) fearless.
Thorberg Nordlicht: is that you growling, threedee?
Threedee Shepherd: um hm
Thorberg Nordlicht: well, gee, uh, maybe you get to lead the conversation tonight; i'm not about to argue with you :-)
Adelene Dawner laughs.
Tara Farmer: this is the best i got
Pia Iger: I wonder how their typiest feel in these AV? how different from human form AV?
Threedee Shepherd: note the following change in paws indicates how I am not, tonite
Thorberg Nordlicht: another impressive avatar; Tara looks like a StarWars character
Tara Farmer: " I am your fatha"
Tara Farmer: lol
Thorberg Nordlicht: hahaha

Thorberg Nordlicht: so, folks, pardon an abrupt change of subject, but has anyone been practicing the 9-second moment?
Threedee Shepherd: yes
Adelene Dawner: In my case, I don't identify as human... I don't identify as a bird, either, but I relate to the metaphor of flight, so this av is comfortable to me.
Tara Farmer: wb prosper
doug Sosa: i've been trying it in strange circumstances, like this afternoon I had guests, and its amazing how, like a pill slipped into a drink, one can just slide the nine into a conversation.
Prosper Telling: yeah, kinda crashed
Thorberg Nordlicht: you "slid the nine into a conversation"?
doug Sosa: right, just tried the 9sec without breaking the conversation.
Pia Iger: ppl thought you were "musing" or thoughtful, :)
doug Sosa: ppl?
Pia Iger: people.
doug Sosa: oh, them.
doug Sosa: no. they didn't notice.
Prosper Telling: interesting
Pia Iger: so this practice is very doable in our modern life.
doug Sosa: i felt warmer toward them, easier, becaue of 9 sec i didn't have to do anything.
doug Sosa: Modern life remember the line" nobody knows you are a dog."
Pia Iger: hehee
Thorberg Nordlicht: i'm back; system problems; hope i didn't miss anything
doug Sosa: welcome back.
Pia Iger: just projecting. even if you were angry or cold to someone, after 9-sec break, it may be possible to change your mood to be warmer.
Tara Farmer: admittedly I am not practicing the nine seconds
doug Sosa: actually i find the "warmer" comes on as soon as the nine seconds starts.
Pia Iger: why it is that?
Prosper Telling: For myself it is in letting go of my thoughts and just being in the moment for 9 secs.
doug Sosa: i think because i just let go of the arrow direction of the conversation and see them as people, almost as extras drafted unwillingly into the war of life.
Prosper Telling: It's easy to lose focus on the petty stuff, the things that are not you.
Threedee Shepherd: I'm new here, and to this. I find it hard to do with my eyes open.
Pia Iger: nods to Doug and Prosper, good points.

Threedee Shepherd: I know this may sound argumentative and is not meant to be so, but to start down a path, if there are "things that are not you," who are they
doug Sosa: thanks. didn't see it. had MY eyes well, if not closed, not seeing.
Prosper Telling: From a Buddhist point of view, last night's dreams
Threedee Shepherd: still my dreams
Tara Farmer: yes i find it difficult to imagine something as not being me
Prosper Telling: Where's the 'my'?
Tara Farmer: i am part of everything and everything is a part of me
Tara Farmer: also, everything is nothing and nothing is everything
doug Sosa: what of the table in front of us? It is you and it isn't at the same time. That is the beauty, and the mystery.
Tara Farmer: well it is there, because i perceive it to be there
Threedee Shepherd: I do know and am actually trying to avoid the Zen of this, and to try to ground in a different way
Tara Farmer: if i didn't it would not exist
Prosper Telling: The 'i' is part of what I see missing.
Prosper Telling: Zen or not Zen, it's just words.
doug Sosa: the cat comes around the corner and sees the dog. Did the dog not exist? We were watching them both the whole time.
Tara Farmer: zen would tell you it's nothing
Tara Farmer: and Pema says the 9 second meditation is not directly related to buddhism
Tara Farmer: BTW
Prosper Telling: Then you have a third, the witness, the on looker
Adelene Dawner: "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
doug Sosa: Oh i like that.
Threedee Shepherd: In practical terms the dog did not "exist" for the cat until it was seen. no surprise.
Pia Iger: I remember the saying, Adelene.
doug Sosa: but exist is not about the perception of one, but the perception of the many. I and my companions saw the dog and the cat.
Tara Farmer: Doug, you read the Seth Material?
doug Sosa: As you drive down the road at night, does the bridge awash exist of not before we run into it?
Threedee Shepherd: I go with Ade. Reality IS. I do not insist my perception of it is it.
Prosper Telling: Part of what I like about Playasbeing is that it is not specifically Buddhist. It's an extra tool.
Tara Farmer: but your perception of it, is it
doug Sosa: Seth ... authority...??
Tara Farmer: the six senses perceive it
Threedee Shepherd: is it for me. My perception can be faulty, but the reality is there and if the bridge is washed out I will land in the water.
Tara Farmer: Seth material, Jane Roberts
Prosper Telling: At the end of the day I feel we might find the perfect word but reality will still evade us.

Adelene Dawner: Tara - if I perceive you as, say, rude (which I do not), does that mean that you *are* rude?
Thorberg Nordlicht: The Seth Material: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seth_Material
Tara Farmer: adelene, i perceive you as rude
Prosper Telling: What does a persimmon taste like?
doug Sosa: which you are not.
Adelene Dawner shrugs. "Lots of people perceive me that way. Lots of people don't. I don't see any relevance to my Self, either way."
Tara Farmer: well clearly you set out to immediately throw people off
Tara Farmer: that much is true
Prosper Telling: Apparently I missed something
Threedee Shepherd: what happened?
doug Sosa: me too.
Thorberg Nordlicht: who did we lose?
Adelene Dawner: Apparently she got offended. *shrug*
Thorberg Nordlicht: did we lose Tara?
Adelene Dawner: She left.
Prosper Telling: Tara bamfed out
doug Sosa: great word.
doug Sosa: people take being serious too seriously. The more serious the more we need to be tolerant.
Prosper Telling: I credit Chris Claremont, what can I say
Threedee Shepherd: may I try again?
Thorberg Nordlicht: I IMed her (Tara)
Prosper Telling: tolerant is a good word.... Not to cherish our own thoughts too highly.
doug Sosa: yes.
Threedee Shepherd: thanks
doug Sosa: or be too serious without humor about the words of others. Like threedee the lion is not so scary

Threedee Shepherd: I recognize that I am trying to see/be in a different way in the 9 seconds. I accept that much of the rest of the time is obscured in *clouds* that are generated by me (using me as opposed to you) thus I want to somehow respect and embrace that part of me in some useful way as I seek to learn more
Thorberg Nordlicht: I've exchanged IMs with Tara, and she insists she's not coming back; anyway, folks, let's just carry on
Threedee Shepherd: her choice
Pia Iger: nicely put, Threedee.
doug Sosa: "clouds" is interesting. What is the experience of the cloud that leads you to call it "cloud"?
Prosper Telling: Well I think we're all different here. From my POV we all have different affinities.
Threedee Shepherd: I used clouds metaphorically to imply a haze generated from many sources that obscures clarity
Prosper Telling: it's a good word imho
doug Sosa: i must go for dinner, not the lion's, but to eat some salmon.
Pia Iger: :)
Prosper Telling: enjoy
Adelene Dawner sighs. "I'm not sure if I should mention this; I'm intending to share possibly-relevant information, not cause drama. But Tara has IMd me, apparently trying to start an argument by insulting me."
Thorberg Nordlicht: that's unfortunate; hopefully, you can resolve the matter between yourselves
Adelene Dawner nods.

Thorberg Nordlicht: in the meantime, where were we?
Thorberg Nordlicht: clouds?
Pia Iger: Not ripping off Threedee, actually on my today's note, I was using the word" Cloud"
Threedee Shepherd: I guess I am suggesting there is not false-self but false-perception
Pia Iger: I feel 9-sec kind of clear up my mind,
Prosper Telling: Do we have anything other than our perception?
Threedee Shepherd: Based on experience, no.
Pia Iger: in cloud is like being mindlessness, not clear where you are, what you are
Pia Iger: but there are different perceptions,
Threedee Shepherd: I meant and probably might have better said "obscuring haze"
Pia Iger: the opposit of haze/cloud would be clear, fresh.
Threedee Shepherd: "direct"
Prosper Telling: I still like clouds :-) Also the clear blue sky is a metaphor for the unobscured mind.
Threedee Shepherd: yes, that works

Thorberg Nordlicht: "Clear water, all the way to the bottom; a fish swims like a fish. / Vast sky, transparent throughout: a bird flies like a bird."
Pia Iger: what that from, Thor?
Prosper Telling: /gasho
Thorberg Nordlicht: a quote from Dogen Zenji; see http://news.sfzc.org/content/view/555/46/
Pia Iger: oh. I am speechless now.
Prosper Telling: :-)
Thorberg Nordlicht: the entire quote is..
Thorberg Nordlicht: “Realization, neither general nor particular, is effort without desire. Clear water all the way to the bottom: a fish swims like a fish. Vast sky transparent throughout; a bird flies like a bird.” Dogen Zenji

Threedee Shepherd: I am not sure I understand "effort without desire"
Thorberg Nordlicht: ((pondering))
Adelene Dawner: We've discussed that, Three - I'll go find a quote to remind you.
Pia Iger: I noticed I still have desire with my efforts.
Prosper Telling: What does it take for a a river to be wet? Or the day sky to be blue?
Threedee Shepherd: neither effort OR desire
Thorberg Nordlicht: "effort with desire" would be "effort that seeks to attain something"
Adelene Dawner: [2008/07/15 20:01] You: Life is learning. The societies that we live in, their main function is to provide lessons, which conflicts strongly with them being fair. I still strive for an end to predjudice - ableism especially, as that's my calling this time, but sexism and racism are closely enough related to be relevant. I know, though, that it might be necessary for those prejudices to stay with this society for a while longer, or even permanently. I strive, but I'm not attached.
Thorberg Nordlicht: Zazen requires "the single-minded effort" but without attainment
Thorberg Nordlicht: Suzuki Roshi says "*we" don't do Zazen; Zazen does Zazen"
Prosper Telling: Knowing the Japanese words would be helpful and knowing the Sanskrit from them... but I think a case be made for just being to be, just  doing to do.
Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm
Prosper Telling: You practice to practice, cultivate to cultivate, without calculation.
Thorberg Nordlicht: yes
Threedee Shepherd: I was thrown off by a concrete and physical sense of effort
Thorberg Nordlicht: Zazen has a "benefit" but it's nothing we can understand ahead of time, so any idea we have that we're doing Zazen "in order to achieve" something... isn't it
Adelene Dawner notes to Threedee that her concept of 'parse' is a skill that everyone can improve in :D
Thorberg Nordlicht: and our effort to achieve something through practicing Zazen just gets in the way
Thorberg Nordlicht: so it's better to just practice without attainment
Thorberg Nordlicht: "enlightenment" will take care of itself
Threedee Shepherd: yes
Thorberg Nordlicht: *itself

Thorberg Nordlicht: there's another quote from suzuki roshi -- i can't remember exactly how it goes, but it's something to the effect that -- when the shepard is away (we're not living mindfully) then the sheep will stray (i thoughts will wander), but when the shepard is simply "paying attention" (being mindful) then the sheep will not stray; the flock will take care of itself
Thorberg Nordlicht: and now that i typed that, i realize i did a very poor job of reproducing the quote; i'll have to look it up and get back to you
Prosper Telling: I like that one
Threedee Shepherd: the meaning came through :)

Thorberg Nordlicht: to me the point was that all that's necessary is to live mindfully -- just *be* present -- and the rest of our state of mind will take care of itself
Pia Iger: so far, the core of what I realized is be at Now, at Moment. It is so essential.
Thorberg Nordlicht: yes, we spend so much time living in the past (our memory) or in the future (our imagination) that we forget to -- as you say -- be at Now
Threedee Shepherd: that is difficult given that so much of consciousness itself deals with memory and they future.
Prosper Telling: I'm smiling here, Thor. Thank you. I guess it takes a lot of patience, like emptying an ocean with five gallon bucket, it is through this simple act of mindful for this that in the Sutras it is said that Amida Buddha established his Pure Land... Such a simple practice yet with profound merit and viirtue.
Prosper Telling: Pia, Now and Being are just two sides of the same thing, when seen in the context of time, the other in Space I think
Pia Iger: Space as "Here"
Threedee Shepherd nods

Thorberg Nordlicht: this is a GREAT conversation, but I have to step away for just a moment to grab dinner (must show respect for the cook in this house); be right back
Threedee Shepherd: k
Adelene Dawner: Oo, relevant Jonathan Livingston Seagull quote: "If our friendship depends on things like space and time, then when we finally overcome space and time, we've destroyed our own brotherhood! But overcome space, and all we have left is Here. Overcome time, and all we have left is Now. And in the middle of Here and Now, don't you think that we might see each other once or twice?"
Prosper Telling: What's the couplet,
Prosper Telling: No doubt, No fear,
Prosper Telling: Just now, just here.
Adelene Dawner: (that, um, may not be useful to anyone who hasn't near-memorized the book. But I find it meaningful. ^.^ )
Pia Iger: Threedee, I think 'consciousness itself deals with memory and they future' is exactly the clouds you said before.
Threedee Shepherd: and sensible, especially the Might once or twice
Prosper Telling: lol... actually it was but I have way tooo much stuff of dubious value floating in my noggin'
Prosper Telling: not to relate.
Prosper Telling: I must go myself. Thank you.
Pia Iger: bye, Prosper.
Prosper Telling: Bye
Thorberg Nordlicht: good night Prosper
Threedee Shepherd: pia, that resonates, and still some statefulness is there even when that kind of consciousness is transcended
Threedee Shepherd: bye prosper
Thorberg Nordlicht: ((typing with one hand as i eat dinner))
Adelene Dawner is now thouroughly distracted from here by the Jonathan Livingston Seagull wikiquotes page. ^.^
Thorberg Nordlicht: :)
Pia Iger: nice talk. maybe we can continue next time.
Thorberg Nordlicht: yes, good session, tonight
Pia Iger: so Thor can enjoy his dinner fully:)
Threedee Shepherd: indeed, more another time
Adelene Dawner: yup :)
Pia Iger: see you later, Threedee and Adelene.
Thorberg Nordlicht: well, you folks don't have to break it up just for me
Thorberg Nordlicht: but i *do* have be going now
Thorberg Nordlicht: good night, everyone
Threedee Shepherd: goddnight all, I will go too.
Adelene Dawner: 'night all
Thorberg Nordlicht: i'll be host again next monday night
Thorberg Nordlicht: see you all then, i hope