2008.07.04 01:00 - Kwan Seum Bosal

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    That night, when I walked up to the pavilion at 1 am, Fael was already seated.

    Fael Illyar: Hi Pema
    Pema Pera: Hi Fael!
    Pema Pera: Thanks for setting up the wiki
    Pema Pera: just got my first taste of it — looks nice!
    Fael Illyar: :)
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Fael Illyar: I just finished bumping the “pema” account to admin level.
    Pema Pera: thanks!
    Pema Pera: could you delete the other account I created by mistake?
    Fael Illyar: I’ve added the others as Managers. Needs some consideration on how to do things.
    Pema Pera: and you are admin right?
    Fael Illyar: Ah, yes, I already removed “piet”
    Fael Illyar: yes, I created the wiki so naturally.
    Pema Pera: don’t know that guy “piet” :)

    I had mistakenly logged in with my own name, but then realized that it would be confusing to talk about matters PaB with that name. Actually, here in PaB we have it easy, using only our SL names. In the MICA astronomy group we frequently use two name handles for everyone, SL and RL, because almost all of us have met in RL and many of us have been collaborating for decades. The result is frequent mild confusion :).

    Pema Pera: what’s the difference between managers and admin?
    Fael Illyar: I’d think it’s most likely user management
    Fael Illyar: Hi Caspian
    Pema Pera: Hi Caspian!
    Caspian Inglewood takes a humble bow
    Pema Pera: /gassho

    Caspian walked up and joined us.

    Fael Illyar: and perhaps some other things.
    Caspian Inglewood: very small gathering
    Pema Pera: yup
    Pema Pera: often when I come here there is nobody
    Fael Illyar: This time gatherings usually are small.
    Pema Pera: at 1 am SLT
    Caspian Inglewood: yah
    Caspian Inglewood: some nights are full, usually weekends
    Pema Pera: But I like the idea of having continued presence every six hours
    Fael Illyar: yesterday was the biggest I’ve seen so far
    Pema Pera: did you count?
    Fael Illyar: for this time slot of course. 5 people
    Caspian Inglewood: I have seen more than last night before
    Pema Pera: ah!
    Pema Pera: I thought you meant evening
    Caspian Inglewood: maybe different time though
    Pema Pera: yes
    Pema Pera: 14 may have been the maximum so far
    Caspian Inglewood: someone was left standing

    That would have been funny, yes, given that we had exactly 13 cushions in our circle.

    Pema Pera: oh, yes, that would be here — but that was at the old tea house
    Pema Pera: we started nearby in a different place
    Caspian Inglewood: okay
    Pema Pera: but that only fitted ten or so inside
    Pema Pera: so often we camped outside :)
    Caspian Inglewood: do either of you make animatin?
    Pema Pera: no
    Pema Pera: but would be fun!
    Pema Pera: have you?
    Caspian Inglewood: no
    Pema Pera: you mean movies?
    Caspian Inglewood: I will need to commission Ryusho
    Pema Pera: in SL?
    Caspian Inglewood: need chanting animation
    Pema Pera: ah!
    Caspian Inglewood: in SL
    Pema Pera: that kind of animation, no I don’t know about that
    Fael Illyar: Moon makes animation
    Caspian Inglewood: yeah i know
    Caspian Inglewood: i will find someone
    Caspian Inglewood: Moon has given me nice things before for free
    Caspian Inglewood: free is best price
    Pema Pera: :)
    Fael Illyar: Moon is very friendly :)
    Pema Pera: yes indeed
    Caspian Inglewood: yes
    Pema Pera: and very playful too
    Fael Illyar: Although, I think there is a difference in free from a friends as opposed to free from a shop.
    Caspian Inglewood: i am particularly partial to Ryusho
    Caspian Inglewood: some of my best animations friends have given

    Meesha joined us, so there were four of us, happily so given the many nights that I’ve been here just by myself, this last week.

    Pema Pera: Hi Meesha!
    Fael Illyar: Hi Meesha
    Caspian Inglewood: hi meesha
    Meesha Cuttita: hello, sorry i’m late
    Caspian Inglewood: has she rezzed for you?
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Pema Pera: np Meesha!
    Pema Pera: everyone here keeps coming and going :)
    Meesha Cuttita: ok then
    Meesha Cuttita: :)
    Pema Pera: glad to see you coming back Meesha!
    Meesha Cuttita: it is a very good technique and i liked practicing it
    Meesha Cuttita: very helpful
    Pema Pera: great! Can you tell us how it went?
    Meesha Cuttita: well first of all i must admit i didn’t manage to do it every 15 minutes
    Meesha Cuttita: but more like every hour or 2 hours even
    Fael Illyar: Caspian, have you been doing the explorations?
    Meesha Cuttita: but for those 9 seconds or so i felt such enormous relief like someone was tickling me from the inside :))
    Caspian Inglewood: I have not
    Fael Illyar: I’ve set alarms myself so I remember to do them every 15 minutes.
    Fael Illyar: I’ve got a bell sound every 15 minutes
    Pema Pera: Thanks, Meesha, that’s a great start!
    Meesha Cuttita: and it seems the having also applies to all opinions and thoughts, judgements
    Pema Pera: YES! very much so
    Meesha Cuttita: all doubts - also part of having, not being
    Pema Pera: yes, could you get some sense of that?
    Meesha Cuttita: in being one is free
    Meesha Cuttita: yes
    Fael Illyar: Although, being free can be scary at first.
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Faenik: could be

    Caspian then told us about his practice.

    Pema Pera: Caspian, you may enjoy trying it a few tmes, just stopping what you do for 9 seconds. I’d be happy to hear how that would feel — or have you done similar things before, perhaps?
    Caspian Inglewood: ah, i do Kwan Seum Bosal chanting throughout day
    Pema Pera: many times?
    Caspian Inglewood: whenever feeling strikes
    Caspian Inglewood: yes, many times
    Pema Pera: Can you tell us a bit about it?
    Caspian Inglewood: yeah
    Caspian Inglewood: Kwan Seum Bosal is Bodhisattva of Compassion
    Caspian Inglewood: Avalokitesvara
    Caspian Inglewood: or Kwan yin
    Caspian Inglewood: you chant name to keep one pointed mind
    Caspian Inglewood: to develop clarity throughout day
    Pema Pera: That’s wonderful, fits right in with the Quan Yin areas that Storm has created here
    Pema Pera: What is the text that you recite?
    Caspian Inglewood: I will send link
    Caspian Inglewood: http://www.kwanumzen.com/practice/chants/namu-amita-bul-2004-12-04.mp3
    Pema Pera: thanks!
    Caspian Inglewood: this is full chant
    Caspian Inglewood: in personal practice, I only recite name
    Caspian Inglewood: like a mantra
    Pema Pera: ah, like “Kwan Seum Bosal” — is that the abbreviated version?
    Caspian Inglewood: I send wrong link
    Caspian Inglewood: http://www.kwanumzen.com/practice/chants/chanting-instructional-cd/09-kwan-seum-bosal.mp3
    Pema Pera: okay, thanks!
    Caspian Inglewood: yeah, just say name over and over
    Pema Pera: must be very powerful

    What a nice conncection that was, Quan Yin by another name!

    Caspian Inglewood: it means great love, great compassion
    Caspian Inglewood: yes, but honestly
    Caspian Inglewood: one can chant Coca Cola if they wish
    Caspian Inglewood: what is said is not so important
    Pema Pera: :)
    Caspian Inglewood: thank you for reaching out, btw
    Caspian Inglewood: I know that was for reason
    Pema Pera: oh, yw and thank you!
    Pema Pera: for a reason?
    Caspian Inglewood: to be inclusive
    Caspian Inglewood: that is all
    Pema Pera: yes, it was a tough call . . . .
    Faenik: why not?
    Pema Pera: . . . and frankly, I was not sure I was doing the right thing
    Caspian Inglewood: well it is similar is all
    Caspian Inglewood: like a daily reminder
    Caspian Inglewood: when very stressed
    Pema Pera: but well, one does the best one can :)
    Caspian Inglewood: or angry
    Caspian Inglewood: Kwan Seum Bosal
    Caspian Inglewood: yah well ty
    Pema Pera: ty too :)
    Pema Pera: One of the great things of this group
    Pema Pera: is that it is so diverse
    Pema Pera: and we all have to learn to deal with different styles
    Pema Pera: sometimes quite different . . . .
    Pema Pera: so far we seem to somehow manage :>)
    Caspian Inglewood: yah

    Meesha’s avatar went briefly in “away” mode.

    Caspian Inglewood: Meesha has keeled over
    Caspian Inglewood: lol
    Pema Pera: dropped what she had :)
    Fael Illyar: I’m often quiet myself but I do read what is being said.
    Meesha Cuttita: i’m right here
    Pema Pera: Meesha, that was really beautiful, your description earlier
    Meesha Cuttita: ty
    Pema Pera: yes, we realize, but your avatar slumped for a moment :)
    Meesha Cuttita: really?
    Pema Pera: I don’t know much about Course in Miracles
    Meesha Cuttita: lol
    Pema Pera: but I guess what you said has overlap with that too, right?
    Pema Pera: as I mentioned last time, I only knew the first two lines
    Caspian Inglewood: will only say that, while tickling feeling is nice
    Meesha Cuttita: well, in brief, religion is about believing in sth greater than you, right?
    Caspian Inglewood: is not the purpose of meditation
    Meesha Cuttita: but as such it is still HAVING a belief
    Fael Illyar: I actually find it a bit strange how I can be interested in reading what others say but not have anything to say about it myself :)
    Pema Pera: yes, Meesha
    Caspian Inglewood: just absorbing is good thing
    Faenik: why not?

    Fael had made an interesting point, but in the flow of the conversation there was no easy opening to get back to that in time, beyond Caspian’s affirmation. What she said reminded me of research: first you put all that you know on the table, then you just look at it, and then something calls out to you, some kind of connection, and then you can start naming and gaming and framing.

    Meesha Cuttita: so the ACIM tries to gradually help one pass into BEING by reducing some restrictive christian beliefs
    Meesha Cuttita: that’s the only difference
    Meesha Cuttita: and in tibetan buddhism, there is a lot of belief
    Pema Pera: are you still involved with that group, if I may ask?
    Caspian Inglewood: well, in brief, religion is about believing in sth greater than you, right?
    Caspian Inglewood: I must point out this is not true for Zen
    Meesha Cuttita: yes, caspian, but buddhism as such is not as much a religion - like theravada or zen - they are not about believing
    Caspian Inglewood: Tibetan Buddhism has always been very confusing for me
    Caspian Inglewood: many names to remember
    Meesha Cuttita: but i see the results in all these versions of religion can be exactly the same
    Pema Pera: There are two very different kinds of belief:
    Pema Pera: belief that something is worth trying very seriously
    Meesha Cuttita: like the practice of being here and now that eckhart tolle and people like him propagate
    Pema Pera: and blind belief
    Pema Pera: yes, Meesha
    Meesha Cuttita: oh yes, like faith in the practice
    Caspian Inglewood: imo, western style religion has the idea of a God or something outside of us
    Caspian Inglewood: to me, this is “opposites” religion
    Caspian Inglewood: absolute religion means to completely become independent
    Caspian Inglewood: that is Zen
    Meesha Cuttita: that’s the point the course in miracles is trying to make - to heal that misbelief
    Meesha Cuttita: well, anyway words can be so confusing :)))
    Caspian Inglewood: ah the course in miracles
    Caspian Inglewood: i have heard of, but know nothing about
    Pema Pera: sorry everybody, I have to leave now — dinner time for me here.
    Caspian Inglewood: bye Pema
    Meesha Cuttita: enjoy your dinner

    Time for me to leave. The remainder of the log is the text that Fael sent me, while the comments continue to be mine.

    Pema Pera: Thanks for coming all — wish I could stay!
    Pema Pera: thanks!
    Pema Pera: Fael, can you send me the log later?
    Meesha Cuttita: thank you!
    Caspian Inglewood: it is true, as you kind of point out, that religion is a western word
    Pema Pera: enjoy!
    Caspian Inglewood: Asian word is “path”
    Fael Illyar: Ok, see you later Pema :)
    Meesha Cuttita: bye
    Caspian Inglewood: actually, lol, “do”
    Meesha Cuttita: dropping all concepts can be scary for a westerner
    Faenik: why not?
    Meesha Cuttita: dropping the concept of god, of jesus
    Caspian Inglewood: yeah, because it is maybe easier to depend on something outside
    Caspian Inglewood: rather than self
    Meesha Cuttita: maybe
    Fael Illyar: I had a christian upbringing and one of the things I remember hearing a lot is about God being “in your heart” or that to find God, you just need look into your heart.
    Meesha Cuttita: yes, me too
    Caspian Inglewood: yah, the gnostic texts say this
    Caspian Inglewood: Meister Eckhart was big on this style of connection
    Caspian Inglewood: but was called heretic
    Meesha Cuttita: but in the practice of being, we let go of all concepts, because every concept is us having it
    Caspian Inglewood: in my experience, we go from concepts, to no concepts, back to concepts
    Caspian Inglewood: and this is how it should be
    Meesha Cuttita: why back?
    Meesha Cuttita: the mind spins and makes new concepts, i can relate to that
    Caspian Inglewood: because one cannot practically drop them
    Caspian Inglewood: but once one has seen that this life is more or less illusion
    Caspian Inglewood: we can return to world of convention
    Caspian Inglewood: where tree is tree
    Meesha Cuttita: but dropping them would be enlightenment, right?
    Fael Illyar: :)

    Meesha and Caspian compare notes about using concepts in different ways.

    Meesha Cuttita: caspian, what is different between the first having concepts and the second returning to them?
    Meesha Cuttita: is there a difference?
    Caspian Inglewood: lol, very interesting
    Caspian Inglewood: no difference
    Caspian Inglewood: like 0 degrees being 360 degrees
    Meesha Cuttita: hmm
    Caspian Inglewood: we have only gone full circle
    Caspian Inglewood: I look at it like this: ask a child
    Meesha Cuttita: but don’t we identify with them the first time and the second time round just see them as conventional reality, but not our reality?
    Caspian Inglewood: say, “is that a ‘dog’?”
    Caspian Inglewood: if they say yes, that is a dog!
    Caspian Inglewood: ha ha
    Faenik: why not?
    Caspian Inglewood: yes, the perspective does shift
    Caspian Inglewood: but still, you are using concepts
    Caspian Inglewood: but you are right
    Caspian Inglewood: the perception has shifted
    Caspian Inglewood: there really is nothing outside, anyway
    Caspian Inglewood: so no separation
    Meesha Cuttita: children - they are not absorbed in the self-identification completely yet
    Caspian Inglewood: but for purposes of convention…you know
    Meesha Cuttita: but on a good way there. lol
    Meesha Cuttita: yes. isee your point

    Fael linked the conversation to Being in Play as Being.

    Fael Illyar: I’ve been recently been thinking about self and being as sort of being on different parallel lines. Although the image has faults too.
    Caspian Inglewood: child mind is 99% Buddha mind, imo
    Meesha Cuttita: i guess that depends on their age too
    Caspian Inglewood: the other 1% is selfish
    Caspian Inglewood: ha ha ha
    Caspian Inglewood: what is this
    Caspian Inglewood: quantum physics?
    Meesha Cuttita: fael, could you explain that?
    Faenik: why not?
    Meesha Cuttita: caspian, do you practice zen buddhism?
    Caspian Inglewood: yes
    Fael Illyar: Well, they will both exist, there is still some sort of a link but it seems most of the “paradoxes” are talking about both of the lines at once. for example “knowing is not knowing” would be partially on one line and partially on the other
    Meesha Cuttita: hm, i find it difficult to imagine
    Fael Illyar: does this make any sense to you, Caspian?
    Caspian Inglewood: you mean this parallel separation between self and being?
    Fael Illyar: well, it’s separation but isn’t :P
    Caspian Inglewood: okay, good
    Caspian Inglewood: because I have trouble, for I try not to separate
    Caspian Inglewood: though green is green and blue is blue
    Caspian Inglewood: I am not sure I understand what you mean Fael
    Caspian Inglewood: try and explain in stupid mans’ terms///
    Caspian Inglewood: :)
    Caspian Inglewood: the way I have been trained, the self is only “what is my correct function?”
    Faenik: ah :)
    Caspian Inglewood: in other words, what are you doing?
    Caspian Inglewood: so there would be no parallel

    Indeed, parallel is not quite right, but then again, Being can not be captured in words. Fael made another attempt.

    Fael Illyar: well, traditionally it seems whatever relation there is between Being and self seems to be expressed as self being illusion and Being …well that’s left more fuzzy.
    Caspian Inglewood: okay
    Caspian Inglewood: self just needs better definition
    Caspian Inglewood: lol
    Caspian Inglewood: most people limit self to “inside”
    Caspian Inglewood: if self throws away inside and outside, then np
    Fael Illyar: However, calling self an illusion is itself partially wrong. It might make people think self needs to be done away with which isn’t the case at all.
    Caspian Inglewood: this is true
    Caspian Inglewood: many walk around talking of no self
    Caspian Inglewood: “I have attained no self.”
    Caspian Inglewood: ha ha ha
    Caspian Inglewood: no self only means help all beings
    Caspian Inglewood: you know?
    Caspian Inglewood: it is not about concept
    Caspian Inglewood: so true self is no self…meaning self for all beings
    Fael Illyar: Well, I’m trying to put things to words I don’t feel I understand here :P
    Fael Illyar: although I somehow seem to know what they aren’t.

    Reading this, I was struck again by the connection with scientific research. There, too, much of the work is trying to figure out what something is not. You start with a hypothesis, as guess as to what something is, and then it doesn’t seem to fit, and you keep checking and testing and gauging what’s going on.

    Caspian Inglewood: I think I get parts of what you mean
    Caspian Inglewood: I just do not understand the parallel line part
    Caspian Inglewood: that image is etched in brain now
    Meesha Cuttita: the self i think is the identification with this body and mind
    Meesha Cuttita: and it causes suffering
    Caspian Inglewood: yah, that is convetional self
    Caspian Inglewood: correct
    Caspian Inglewood: that is the self we hear people say get rid of
    Fael Illyar: self has a thinking model that distracts from Being. This thinking model seems to be very integral to self.
    Caspian Inglewood: the self confined basically to “only me”
    Meesha Cuttita: but to see things as they are and not identifying with them, eliminates suffering, because it is no longer ME who has the problem
    Caspian Inglewood: this is true Fael
    Meesha Cuttita: it is just being
    Caspian Inglewood: when thinking goes unchecked
    Caspian Inglewood: people make themselves special
    Caspian Inglewood: in short, they separate self from rest of world
    Caspian Inglewood: this is the illusory self
    Meesha Cuttita: maybe it is these two realities fael you are talking about

    A lot of interesting points had been brought up, many of them worthy topics for a whole session.

    Caspian Inglewood: I disagree Meesha
    Caspian Inglewood: identify or not identify, one still suffers
    Caspian Inglewood: I would say this
    Caspian Inglewood: seeing things clearly, as you say, allows for good coping strategy for suffering
    Caspian Inglewood: I think maybe this is what you mean
    Fael Illyar: as in, you will still suffer but will have learned how to keep from making it worse?
    Meesha Cuttita: i mean - like the body hurts, ok. but it is not me. there is agitation in the mind, regrets, sadness. OK, but it is not me
    Caspian Inglewood: I think as in you will assess the situation from sober standpoint
    Caspian Inglewood: for instance
    Caspian Inglewood: I am sick, I have cancer lets say
    Caspian Inglewood: I could wish away, or be very angry
    Caspian Inglewood: or I can go into sickness
    Meesha Cuttita: your body has cancer. not you
    Caspian Inglewood: this going in allows for ease of suffering
    Caspian Inglewood: for sick time is sick time
    Faenik: why not?
    Meesha Cuttita: yes exactly. nature is nature
    Fael Illyar: like quicksand? if you fight it, you’ll only end up deeper?
    Caspian Inglewood: yah exactly
    Caspian Inglewood: Zen, and Buddhism in general, is about not fighting the quicksand
    Caspian Inglewood: or, rather, fighting without attachment
    Caspian Inglewood: so you may take medication
    Caspian Inglewood: or you may strive for justice
    Caspian Inglewood: but you are not set on only one outcome
    Fael Illyar: you will accept whatever becomes of it.
    Caspian Inglewood: yah
    Caspian Inglewood: we have saying in Zen
    Caspian Inglewood: spring comes and the grass grows
    Caspian Inglewood: so what is will be
    Caspian Inglewood: it is so
    Caspian Inglewood: now, helping water grass will make grow faster
    Caspian Inglewood: lol
    Caspian Inglewood: so there are things you can do
    Caspian Inglewood: it is not a fatalistic point of view
    Caspian Inglewood: I flood a lot…sorry for this
    Fael Illyar: I find comparing things to a game of go helps. If you’ve made a mistake that means you’re going to lose a group of stones, trying to save them will only make it worse.

    How true! At this point Meesha had to leave.

    Meesha Cuttita: thanks for the chat i have to go
    Meesha Cuttita: see you!
    Caspian Inglewood: bye Meesha
    Fael Illyar: Ok, see you later Meesha :)
    Meesha Cuttita: bye bye
    Caspian Inglewood: yeah, just resign oneself to one’s fate
    Caspian Inglewood: but do not stop striving
    Caspian Inglewood: that is why it is not fatalism
    Fael Illyar: yes, abandon what you can’t have but instead go for something you can.
    Caspian Inglewood: or even go for what you can’t have, and be prepared to walk away empty handed
    Caspian Inglewood: lol
    Caspian Inglewood: like in Go
    Fael Illyar: hehe, yes :)
    Fael Illyar: It’s amusing how game of Go works for this sort of thing.
    Caspian Inglewood: I think that if one is I like the analogy
    Fael Illyar: To play well, you must not get attached to your stones.
    Caspian Inglewood: play the game, but just enjoy it for what is
    Caspian Inglewood: win, lose
    Caspian Inglewood: does not matter
    Fael Illyar: Yes, that viewpoint too.
    Caspian Inglewood: easier said than done!
    Caspian Inglewood: I like my stones
    Fael Illyar: Yes :)
    Faenik: ah :)

    From stones to shopping.

    Caspian Inglewood: wants to buy something
    Caspian Inglewood: but doesn’t know what
    Fael Illyar: :)
    Caspian Inglewood: ever been there?
    Fael Illyar: I might have been, years ago.
    Caspian Inglewood: SL can teach a person a lot
    Caspian Inglewood: a constant push to acquire accessories that will make you complete
    Fael Illyar: It’s been a while since I just wanted to buy something without knowing what.
    Caspian Inglewood: it is more in your face here, since you see yourself from the third person
    Fael Illyar: If I go browsing shops, I’ll bump into things I then want to buy occasionally but … oh wait, just going browsing shops means … well, not actually wanting to buy something, wanting to change the way you look would be more accurate.
    Caspian Inglewood: true
    Caspian Inglewood: plus, shopping here is so difficult
    Caspian Inglewood: you seldom can see something before buying
    Fael Illyar: In good shops you can.
    Caspian Inglewood: yeah this is true
    Caspian Inglewood: i can only say that i’ve wasted my money only once here
    Faenik: could be
    Caspian Inglewood: and it was only $80
    Caspian Inglewood: so no big deal
    Caspian Inglewood: well, without mentioning Zyngo
    Caspian Inglewood: but really, I played Zyngo for fun more than anything
    Fael Illyar: I tend to be very careful where I shop. I only tend to take shops seriously when it’s clear the owner has put a lot of effort into them.
    Caspian Inglewood: yeah
    Caspian Inglewood: i think Ryusho has done well over there
    Caspian Inglewood: high quality items
    Fael Illyar: Yes, ryusho has done more than most. Although it’s not just the items. Also the shop as a whole.
    Caspian Inglewood: yes
    Caspian Inglewood: a pose ball would be nice there, honestly
    Fael Illyar: posing stand?
    Caspian Inglewood: that is what i mean
    Caspian Inglewood: but that is the only detractor
    Fael Illyar just took another look at Ryusho’s shop.
    Caspian Inglewood: I have number one confidence that if I hire them
    Fael Illyar: looks like he’s done quite a bit there since I last looked
    Caspian Inglewood: they will make high quality product
    Caspian Inglewood: yes
    Caspian Inglewood: his outfits are very nice
    Caspian Inglewood: or her
    Caspian Inglewood: not sure which
    Caspian Inglewood: I think i will go shop now
    Caspian Inglewood: or make some money
    Fael Illyar: Ok, see you later Caspian :)
    Caspian Inglewood: bye Fael
    Caspian Inglewood: was nice chatting
    Caspian Inglewood takes a humble bow

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