That night, when I walked up to the pavilion at 1 am, Fael was already seated.
Fael Illyar: Hi Pema
Pema Pera: Hi Fael!
Pema Pera: Thanks for setting up the wiki
Pema Pera: just got my first taste of it — looks nice!
Fael Illyar: :)
Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
Fael Illyar: I just finished bumping the “pema” account to admin level.
Pema Pera: thanks!
Pema Pera: could you delete the other account I created by mistake?
Fael Illyar: I’ve added the others as Managers. Needs some consideration on how to do things.
Pema Pera: and you are admin right?
Fael Illyar: Ah, yes, I already removed “piet”
Fael Illyar: yes, I created the wiki so naturally.
Pema Pera: don’t know that guy “piet” :)
I had mistakenly logged in with my own name, but then realized that it would be confusing to talk about matters PaB with that name. Actually, here in PaB we have it easy, using only our SL names. In the MICA astronomy group we frequently use two name handles for everyone, SL and RL, because almost all of us have met in RL and many of us have been collaborating for decades. The result is frequent mild confusion :).
Pema Pera: what’s the difference between managers and admin?
Fael Illyar: I’d think it’s most likely user management
Fael Illyar: Hi Caspian
Pema Pera: Hi Caspian!
Caspian Inglewood takes a humble bow
Pema Pera: /gassho
Caspian walked up and joined us.
Fael Illyar: and perhaps some other things.
Caspian Inglewood: very small gathering
Pema Pera: yup
Pema Pera: often when I come here there is nobody
Fael Illyar: This time gatherings usually are small.
Pema Pera: at 1 am SLT
Caspian Inglewood: yah
Caspian Inglewood: some nights are full, usually weekends
Pema Pera: But I like the idea of having continued presence every six hours
Fael Illyar: yesterday was the biggest I’ve seen so far
Pema Pera: did you count?
Fael Illyar: for this time slot of course. 5 people
Caspian Inglewood: I have seen more than last night before
Pema Pera: ah!
Pema Pera: I thought you meant evening
Caspian Inglewood: maybe different time though
Pema Pera: yes
Pema Pera: 14 may have been the maximum so far
Caspian Inglewood: someone was left standing
That would have been funny, yes, given that we had exactly 13 cushions in our circle.
Pema Pera: oh, yes, that would be here — but that was at the old tea house
Pema Pera: we started nearby in a different place
Caspian Inglewood: okay
Pema Pera: but that only fitted ten or so inside
Pema Pera: so often we camped outside :)
Caspian Inglewood: do either of you make animatin?
Pema Pera: no
Pema Pera: but would be fun!
Pema Pera: have you?
Caspian Inglewood: no
Pema Pera: you mean movies?
Caspian Inglewood: I will need to commission Ryusho
Pema Pera: in SL?
Caspian Inglewood: need chanting animation
Pema Pera: ah!
Caspian Inglewood: in SL
Pema Pera: that kind of animation, no I don’t know about that
Fael Illyar: Moon makes animation
Caspian Inglewood: yeah i know
Caspian Inglewood: i will find someone
Caspian Inglewood: Moon has given me nice things before for free
Caspian Inglewood: free is best price
Pema Pera: :)
Fael Illyar: Moon is very friendly :)
Pema Pera: yes indeed
Caspian Inglewood: yes
Pema Pera: and very playful too
Fael Illyar: Although, I think there is a difference in free from a friends as opposed to free from a shop.
Caspian Inglewood: i am particularly partial to Ryusho
Caspian Inglewood: some of my best animations friends have given
Meesha joined us, so there were four of us, happily so given the many nights that I’ve been here just by myself, this last week.
Pema Pera: Hi Meesha!
Fael Illyar: Hi Meesha
Caspian Inglewood: hi meesha
Meesha Cuttita: hello, sorry i’m late
Caspian Inglewood: has she rezzed for you?
Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
Pema Pera: np Meesha!
Pema Pera: everyone here keeps coming and going :)
Meesha Cuttita: ok then
Meesha Cuttita: :)
Pema Pera: glad to see you coming back Meesha!
Meesha Cuttita: it is a very good technique and i liked practicing it
Meesha Cuttita: very helpful
Pema Pera: great! Can you tell us how it went?
Meesha Cuttita: well first of all i must admit i didn’t manage to do it every 15 minutes
Meesha Cuttita: but more like every hour or 2 hours even
Fael Illyar: Caspian, have you been doing the explorations?
Meesha Cuttita: but for those 9 seconds or so i felt such enormous relief like someone was tickling me from the inside :))
Caspian Inglewood: I have not
Fael Illyar: I’ve set alarms myself so I remember to do them every 15 minutes.
Fael Illyar: I’ve got a bell sound every 15 minutes
Pema Pera: Thanks, Meesha, that’s a great start!
Meesha Cuttita: and it seems the having also applies to all opinions and thoughts, judgements
Pema Pera: YES! very much so
Meesha Cuttita: all doubts - also part of having, not being
Pema Pera: yes, could you get some sense of that?
Meesha Cuttita: in being one is free
Meesha Cuttita: yes
Fael Illyar: Although, being free can be scary at first.
Pema Pera: :-)
Faenik: could be
Caspian then told us about his practice.
Pema Pera: Caspian, you may enjoy trying it a few tmes, just stopping what you do for 9 seconds. I’d be happy to hear how that would feel — or have you done similar things before, perhaps?
Caspian Inglewood: ah, i do Kwan Seum Bosal chanting throughout day
Pema Pera: many times?
Caspian Inglewood: whenever feeling strikes
Caspian Inglewood: yes, many times
Pema Pera: Can you tell us a bit about it?
Caspian Inglewood: yeah
Caspian Inglewood: Kwan Seum Bosal is Bodhisattva of Compassion
Caspian Inglewood: Avalokitesvara
Caspian Inglewood: or Kwan yin
Caspian Inglewood: you chant name to keep one pointed mind
Caspian Inglewood: to develop clarity throughout day
Pema Pera: That’s wonderful, fits right in with the Quan Yin areas that Storm has created here
Pema Pera: What is the text that you recite?
Caspian Inglewood: I will send link
Caspian Inglewood: http://www.kwanumzen.com/practice/chants/namu-amita-bul-2004-12-04.mp3
Pema Pera: thanks!
Caspian Inglewood: this is full chant
Caspian Inglewood: in personal practice, I only recite name
Caspian Inglewood: like a mantra
Pema Pera: ah, like “Kwan Seum Bosal” — is that the abbreviated version?
Caspian Inglewood: I send wrong link
Caspian Inglewood: http://www.kwanumzen.com/practice/chants/chanting-instructional-cd/09-kwan-seum-bosal.mp3
Pema Pera: okay, thanks!
Caspian Inglewood: yeah, just say name over and over
Pema Pera: must be very powerful
What a nice conncection that was, Quan Yin by another name!
Caspian Inglewood: it means great love, great compassion
Caspian Inglewood: yes, but honestly
Caspian Inglewood: one can chant Coca Cola if they wish
Caspian Inglewood: what is said is not so important
Pema Pera: :)
Caspian Inglewood: thank you for reaching out, btw
Caspian Inglewood: I know that was for reason
Pema Pera: oh, yw and thank you!
Pema Pera: for a reason?
Caspian Inglewood: to be inclusive
Caspian Inglewood: that is all
Pema Pera: yes, it was a tough call . . . .
Faenik: why not?
Pema Pera: . . . and frankly, I was not sure I was doing the right thing
Caspian Inglewood: well it is similar is all
Caspian Inglewood: like a daily reminder
Caspian Inglewood: when very stressed
Pema Pera: but well, one does the best one can :)
Caspian Inglewood: or angry
Caspian Inglewood: Kwan Seum Bosal
Caspian Inglewood: yah well ty
Pema Pera: ty too :)
Pema Pera: One of the great things of this group
Pema Pera: is that it is so diverse
Pema Pera: and we all have to learn to deal with different styles
Pema Pera: sometimes quite different . . . .
Pema Pera: so far we seem to somehow manage :>)
Caspian Inglewood: yah
Meesha’s avatar went briefly in “away” mode.
Caspian Inglewood: Meesha has keeled over
Caspian Inglewood: lol
Pema Pera: dropped what she had :)
Fael Illyar: I’m often quiet myself but I do read what is being said.
Meesha Cuttita: i’m right here
Pema Pera: Meesha, that was really beautiful, your description earlier
Meesha Cuttita: ty
Pema Pera: yes, we realize, but your avatar slumped for a moment :)
Meesha Cuttita: really?
Pema Pera: I don’t know much about Course in Miracles
Meesha Cuttita: lol
Pema Pera: but I guess what you said has overlap with that too, right?
Pema Pera: as I mentioned last time, I only knew the first two lines
Caspian Inglewood: will only say that, while tickling feeling is nice
Meesha Cuttita: well, in brief, religion is about believing in sth greater than you, right?
Caspian Inglewood: is not the purpose of meditation
Meesha Cuttita: but as such it is still HAVING a belief
Fael Illyar: I actually find it a bit strange how I can be interested in reading what others say but not have anything to say about it myself :)
Pema Pera: yes, Meesha
Caspian Inglewood: just absorbing is good thing
Faenik: why not?
Fael had made an interesting point, but in the flow of the conversation there was no easy opening to get back to that in time, beyond Caspian’s affirmation. What she said reminded me of research: first you put all that you know on the table, then you just look at it, and then something calls out to you, some kind of connection, and then you can start naming and gaming and framing.
Meesha Cuttita: so the ACIM tries to gradually help one pass into BEING by reducing some restrictive christian beliefs
Meesha Cuttita: that’s the only difference
Meesha Cuttita: and in tibetan buddhism, there is a lot of belief
Pema Pera: are you still involved with that group, if I may ask?
Caspian Inglewood: well, in brief, religion is about believing in sth greater than you, right?
Caspian Inglewood: I must point out this is not true for Zen
Meesha Cuttita: yes, caspian, but buddhism as such is not as much a religion - like theravada or zen - they are not about believing
Caspian Inglewood: Tibetan Buddhism has always been very confusing for me
Caspian Inglewood: many names to remember
Meesha Cuttita: but i see the results in all these versions of religion can be exactly the same
Pema Pera: There are two very different kinds of belief:
Pema Pera: belief that something is worth trying very seriously
Meesha Cuttita: like the practice of being here and now that eckhart tolle and people like him propagate
Pema Pera: and blind belief
Pema Pera: yes, Meesha
Meesha Cuttita: oh yes, like faith in the practice
Caspian Inglewood: imo, western style religion has the idea of a God or something outside of us
Caspian Inglewood: to me, this is “opposites” religion
Caspian Inglewood: absolute religion means to completely become independent
Caspian Inglewood: that is Zen
Meesha Cuttita: that’s the point the course in miracles is trying to make - to heal that misbelief
Meesha Cuttita: well, anyway words can be so confusing :)))
Caspian Inglewood: ah the course in miracles
Caspian Inglewood: i have heard of, but know nothing about
Pema Pera: sorry everybody, I have to leave now — dinner time for me here.
Caspian Inglewood: bye Pema
Meesha Cuttita: enjoy your dinner
Time for me to leave. The remainder of the log is the text that Fael sent me, while the comments continue to be mine.
Pema Pera: Thanks for coming all — wish I could stay!
Pema Pera: thanks!
Pema Pera: Fael, can you send me the log later?
Meesha Cuttita: thank you!
Caspian Inglewood: it is true, as you kind of point out, that religion is a western word
Pema Pera: enjoy!
Caspian Inglewood: Asian word is “path”
Fael Illyar: Ok, see you later Pema :)
Meesha Cuttita: bye
Caspian Inglewood: actually, lol, “do”
Meesha Cuttita: dropping all concepts can be scary for a westerner
Faenik: why not?
Meesha Cuttita: dropping the concept of god, of jesus
Caspian Inglewood: yeah, because it is maybe easier to depend on something outside
Caspian Inglewood: rather than self
Meesha Cuttita: maybe
Fael Illyar: I had a christian upbringing and one of the things I remember hearing a lot is about God being “in your heart” or that to find God, you just need look into your heart.
Meesha Cuttita: yes, me too
Caspian Inglewood: yah, the gnostic texts say this
Caspian Inglewood: Meister Eckhart was big on this style of connection
Caspian Inglewood: but was called heretic
Meesha Cuttita: but in the practice of being, we let go of all concepts, because every concept is us having it
Caspian Inglewood: in my experience, we go from concepts, to no concepts, back to concepts
Caspian Inglewood: and this is how it should be
Meesha Cuttita: why back?
Meesha Cuttita: the mind spins and makes new concepts, i can relate to that
Caspian Inglewood: because one cannot practically drop them
Caspian Inglewood: but once one has seen that this life is more or less illusion
Caspian Inglewood: we can return to world of convention
Caspian Inglewood: where tree is tree
Meesha Cuttita: but dropping them would be enlightenment, right?
Fael Illyar: :)
Meesha and Caspian compare notes about using concepts in different ways.
Meesha Cuttita: caspian, what is different between the first having concepts and the second returning to them?
Meesha Cuttita: is there a difference?
Caspian Inglewood: lol, very interesting
Caspian Inglewood: no difference
Caspian Inglewood: like 0 degrees being 360 degrees
Meesha Cuttita: hmm
Caspian Inglewood: we have only gone full circle
Caspian Inglewood: I look at it like this: ask a child
Meesha Cuttita: but don’t we identify with them the first time and the second time round just see them as conventional reality, but not our reality?
Caspian Inglewood: say, “is that a ‘dog’?”
Caspian Inglewood: if they say yes, that is a dog!
Caspian Inglewood: ha ha
Faenik: why not?
Caspian Inglewood: yes, the perspective does shift
Caspian Inglewood: but still, you are using concepts
Caspian Inglewood: but you are right
Caspian Inglewood: the perception has shifted
Caspian Inglewood: there really is nothing outside, anyway
Caspian Inglewood: so no separation
Meesha Cuttita: children - they are not absorbed in the self-identification completely yet
Caspian Inglewood: but for purposes of convention…you know
Meesha Cuttita: but on a good way there. lol
Meesha Cuttita: yes. isee your point
Fael linked the conversation to Being in Play as Being.
Fael Illyar: I’ve been recently been thinking about self and being as sort of being on different parallel lines. Although the image has faults too.
Caspian Inglewood: child mind is 99% Buddha mind, imo
Meesha Cuttita: i guess that depends on their age too
Caspian Inglewood: the other 1% is selfish
Caspian Inglewood: ha ha ha
Caspian Inglewood: what is this
Caspian Inglewood: quantum physics?
Meesha Cuttita: fael, could you explain that?
Faenik: why not?
Meesha Cuttita: caspian, do you practice zen buddhism?
Caspian Inglewood: yes
Fael Illyar: Well, they will both exist, there is still some sort of a link but it seems most of the “paradoxes” are talking about both of the lines at once. for example “knowing is not knowing” would be partially on one line and partially on the other
Meesha Cuttita: hm, i find it difficult to imagine
Fael Illyar: does this make any sense to you, Caspian?
Caspian Inglewood: you mean this parallel separation between self and being?
Fael Illyar: well, it’s separation but isn’t :P
Caspian Inglewood: okay, good
Caspian Inglewood: because I have trouble, for I try not to separate
Caspian Inglewood: though green is green and blue is blue
Caspian Inglewood: I am not sure I understand what you mean Fael
Caspian Inglewood: try and explain in stupid mans’ terms///
Caspian Inglewood: :)
Caspian Inglewood: the way I have been trained, the self is only “what is my correct function?”
Faenik: ah :)
Caspian Inglewood: in other words, what are you doing?
Caspian Inglewood: so there would be no parallel
Indeed, parallel is not quite right, but then again, Being can not be captured in words. Fael made another attempt.
Fael Illyar: well, traditionally it seems whatever relation there is between Being and self seems to be expressed as self being illusion and Being …well that’s left more fuzzy.
Caspian Inglewood: okay
Caspian Inglewood: self just needs better definition
Caspian Inglewood: lol
Caspian Inglewood: most people limit self to “inside”
Caspian Inglewood: if self throws away inside and outside, then np
Fael Illyar: However, calling self an illusion is itself partially wrong. It might make people think self needs to be done away with which isn’t the case at all.
Caspian Inglewood: this is true
Caspian Inglewood: many walk around talking of no self
Caspian Inglewood: “I have attained no self.”
Caspian Inglewood: ha ha ha
Caspian Inglewood: no self only means help all beings
Caspian Inglewood: you know?
Caspian Inglewood: it is not about concept
Caspian Inglewood: so true self is no self…meaning self for all beings
Fael Illyar: Well, I’m trying to put things to words I don’t feel I understand here :P
Fael Illyar: although I somehow seem to know what they aren’t.
Reading this, I was struck again by the connection with scientific research. There, too, much of the work is trying to figure out what something is not. You start with a hypothesis, as guess as to what something is, and then it doesn’t seem to fit, and you keep checking and testing and gauging what’s going on.
Caspian Inglewood: I think I get parts of what you mean
Caspian Inglewood: I just do not understand the parallel line part
Caspian Inglewood: that image is etched in brain now
Meesha Cuttita: the self i think is the identification with this body and mind
Meesha Cuttita: and it causes suffering
Caspian Inglewood: yah, that is convetional self
Caspian Inglewood: correct
Caspian Inglewood: that is the self we hear people say get rid of
Fael Illyar: self has a thinking model that distracts from Being. This thinking model seems to be very integral to self.
Caspian Inglewood: the self confined basically to “only me”
Meesha Cuttita: but to see things as they are and not identifying with them, eliminates suffering, because it is no longer ME who has the problem
Caspian Inglewood: this is true Fael
Meesha Cuttita: it is just being
Caspian Inglewood: when thinking goes unchecked
Caspian Inglewood: people make themselves special
Caspian Inglewood: in short, they separate self from rest of world
Caspian Inglewood: this is the illusory self
Meesha Cuttita: maybe it is these two realities fael you are talking about
A lot of interesting points had been brought up, many of them worthy topics for a whole session.
Caspian Inglewood: I disagree Meesha
Caspian Inglewood: identify or not identify, one still suffers
Caspian Inglewood: I would say this
Caspian Inglewood: seeing things clearly, as you say, allows for good coping strategy for suffering
Caspian Inglewood: I think maybe this is what you mean
Fael Illyar: as in, you will still suffer but will have learned how to keep from making it worse?
Meesha Cuttita: i mean - like the body hurts, ok. but it is not me. there is agitation in the mind, regrets, sadness. OK, but it is not me
Caspian Inglewood: I think as in you will assess the situation from sober standpoint
Caspian Inglewood: for instance
Caspian Inglewood: I am sick, I have cancer lets say
Caspian Inglewood: I could wish away, or be very angry
Caspian Inglewood: or I can go into sickness
Meesha Cuttita: your body has cancer. not you
Caspian Inglewood: this going in allows for ease of suffering
Caspian Inglewood: for sick time is sick time
Faenik: why not?
Meesha Cuttita: yes exactly. nature is nature
Fael Illyar: like quicksand? if you fight it, you’ll only end up deeper?
Caspian Inglewood: yah exactly
Caspian Inglewood: Zen, and Buddhism in general, is about not fighting the quicksand
Caspian Inglewood: or, rather, fighting without attachment
Caspian Inglewood: so you may take medication
Caspian Inglewood: or you may strive for justice
Caspian Inglewood: but you are not set on only one outcome
Fael Illyar: you will accept whatever becomes of it.
Caspian Inglewood: yah
Caspian Inglewood: we have saying in Zen
Caspian Inglewood: spring comes and the grass grows
Caspian Inglewood: so what is will be
Caspian Inglewood: it is so
Caspian Inglewood: now, helping water grass will make grow faster
Caspian Inglewood: lol
Caspian Inglewood: so there are things you can do
Caspian Inglewood: it is not a fatalistic point of view
Caspian Inglewood: I flood a lot…sorry for this
Fael Illyar: I find comparing things to a game of go helps. If you’ve made a mistake that means you’re going to lose a group of stones, trying to save them will only make it worse.
How true! At this point Meesha had to leave.
Meesha Cuttita: thanks for the chat i have to go
Meesha Cuttita: see you!
Caspian Inglewood: bye Meesha
Fael Illyar: Ok, see you later Meesha :)
Meesha Cuttita: bye bye
Caspian Inglewood: yeah, just resign oneself to one’s fate
Caspian Inglewood: but do not stop striving
Caspian Inglewood: that is why it is not fatalism
Fael Illyar: yes, abandon what you can’t have but instead go for something you can.
Caspian Inglewood: or even go for what you can’t have, and be prepared to walk away empty handed
Caspian Inglewood: lol
Caspian Inglewood: like in Go
Fael Illyar: hehe, yes :)
Fael Illyar: It’s amusing how game of Go works for this sort of thing.
Caspian Inglewood: I think that if one is I like the analogy
Fael Illyar: To play well, you must not get attached to your stones.
Caspian Inglewood: play the game, but just enjoy it for what is
Caspian Inglewood: win, lose
Caspian Inglewood: does not matter
Fael Illyar: Yes, that viewpoint too.
Caspian Inglewood: easier said than done!
Caspian Inglewood: I like my stones
Fael Illyar: Yes :)
Faenik: ah :)
From stones to shopping.
Caspian Inglewood: wants to buy something
Caspian Inglewood: but doesn’t know what
Fael Illyar: :)
Caspian Inglewood: ever been there?
Fael Illyar: I might have been, years ago.
Caspian Inglewood: SL can teach a person a lot
Caspian Inglewood: a constant push to acquire accessories that will make you complete
Fael Illyar: It’s been a while since I just wanted to buy something without knowing what.
Caspian Inglewood: it is more in your face here, since you see yourself from the third person
Fael Illyar: If I go browsing shops, I’ll bump into things I then want to buy occasionally but … oh wait, just going browsing shops means … well, not actually wanting to buy something, wanting to change the way you look would be more accurate.
Caspian Inglewood: true
Caspian Inglewood: plus, shopping here is so difficult
Caspian Inglewood: you seldom can see something before buying
Fael Illyar: In good shops you can.
Caspian Inglewood: yeah this is true
Caspian Inglewood: i can only say that i’ve wasted my money only once here
Faenik: could be
Caspian Inglewood: and it was only $80
Caspian Inglewood: so no big deal
Caspian Inglewood: well, without mentioning Zyngo
Caspian Inglewood: but really, I played Zyngo for fun more than anything
Fael Illyar: I tend to be very careful where I shop. I only tend to take shops seriously when it’s clear the owner has put a lot of effort into them.
Caspian Inglewood: yeah
Caspian Inglewood: i think Ryusho has done well over there
Caspian Inglewood: high quality items
Fael Illyar: Yes, ryusho has done more than most. Although it’s not just the items. Also the shop as a whole.
Caspian Inglewood: yes
Caspian Inglewood: a pose ball would be nice there, honestly
Fael Illyar: posing stand?
Caspian Inglewood: that is what i mean
Caspian Inglewood: but that is the only detractor
Fael Illyar just took another look at Ryusho’s shop.
Caspian Inglewood: I have number one confidence that if I hire them
Fael Illyar: looks like he’s done quite a bit there since I last looked
Caspian Inglewood: they will make high quality product
Caspian Inglewood: yes
Caspian Inglewood: his outfits are very nice
Caspian Inglewood: or her
Caspian Inglewood: not sure which
Caspian Inglewood: I think i will go shop now
Caspian Inglewood: or make some money
Fael Illyar: Ok, see you later Caspian :)
Caspian Inglewood: bye Fael
Caspian Inglewood: was nice chatting
Caspian Inglewood takes a humble bow
