2008.07.07 13:00 - Club Vice is now Club Nice

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    That afternoon, Stim was the guardian. The comments in the log here are his.

    I and four others were ready early today, and started to settle in.

    Delani Gabardini: i have to find another cushion - don’t like kneeling
    Delani Gabardini: better
    Quilty Bookmite: Hi Delani
    Delani Gabardini: hi quilty
    Delani Gabardini: stim
    Delani Gabardini: adams
    Stim Morane: Hi Delani!
    Delani Gabardini: fael and solo
    Faenik: ah :)
    Solobill Laville: :)
    Fael Illyar: :)
    Delani Gabardini: oops moon went offline
    Fael Illyar: failed teleport I guess?
    Quilty Bookmite: Must have been connection problems.
    Quilty Bookmite: :-)
    Delani Gabardini: wonder if that fellow out there wants to join us
    Solobill Laville: brb
    Delani Gabardini: here moon is
    Moon Fargis: hello everyone
    Moon Fargis: yes crashed
    Quilty Bookmite: Welcome back Moon
    Delani Gabardini: oh no
    Stim Morane: Hi Moon
    Quilty Bookmite: hi Udge
    Delani Gabardini: fael - u have no skirt on

    A Second Life bug, only apparent to some of the participants.

    Udge Watanabe: hello everyone
    Delani Gabardini: hi udge
    Udge Watanabe: sorry I’m late
    Quilty Bookmite: :-)
    Fael Illyar: something bugs, I’ll try relogging
    Faenik: indeed?
    Udge Watanabe: wb fael
    Delani Gabardini: fael don’t worry about your skirt or lack of it
    Quilty Bookmite: It looks to be there to me.
    Udge Watanabe: you look skirted to me (grey, but skirted :-)
    Delani Gabardini: must be the angle
    Solobill Laville: I think the issue may be the crosslegged sit
    Delani Gabardini: i see bare legs
    Solobill Laville: Maybe you should try the kneel
    Solobill Laville: The pillow to Adams right is kneel, Fael
    Delani Gabardini: good landing isen
    Stim Morane: Hi Isen
    Quilty Bookmite: Hi Isen
    Moon Fargis: wb isen
    Adams Rubble: Hello Isen
    Solobill Laville: Yes, very smooth Isen :)

    Time to get going.

    Stim Morane: I’m glad we’re here … what would you all like to discuss?
    Moon Fargis: so lets pab a bit :)
    Delani Gabardini: adams I finally read your log - very good
    Adams Rubble: thank you
    Delani Gabardini: topic?
    Isen Enzo: Wobbliness?
    Solobill Laville: I’m wobbly

    This was a reference to several previous discussions of the Buddhist term “duhkha”, often mistranslated as “suffering”.

    Quilty Bookmite: Physical wobbliness or spiritual?
    Isen Enzo: brb
    Solobill Laville: Hi Fael
    Quilty Bookmite: hi Fael. Quick change?
    Isen Enzo: Wobbliness- i read a translation of “dukkha”…
    Solobill Laville: Just what I was thinking Isen!
    Delani Gabardini: it doesn’t mean suffering
    Fael Illyar: Hello Again
    Isen Enzo: that was- dukkha is described as a wobbly axle..
    Isen Enzo: maybe on a potters wheel…
    Delani Gabardini: well that is suffereing
    Isen Enzo: maybe on a cart wheel..
    Delani Gabardini: wobbles
    Isen Enzo: the idea is that life is wobbly..
    Isen Enzo: not even
    Moon Fargis looks at delani wobbling
    Isen Enzo: and our inabality to put up with the wobbliness..
    Isen Enzo: is what caused the suffereng..
    Isen Enzo: life is wobbly..
    Udge Watanabe: wobbly as “imperfectible”?
    Isen Enzo: inability to put up with the unevenness is what brings sufering.
    Isen Enzo: yes
    Quilty Bookmite: Continuously changing?
    Isen Enzo: wobbly is the best it will get..
    Isen Enzo: never even..
    Delani Gabardini: unstability
    Isen Enzo: never smooth..
    Isen Enzo: kinda, but not quiet..
    Isen Enzo: lumpy..
    Isen Enzo: bumpy
    Fael Illyar: Wobbly as in constantly moving/changing. If you can’t accept the changes, you’ll suffer.
    Isen Enzo: yes!
    Delani Gabardini: moon carlos is coming
    Udge Watanabe: (sorry, I have to lie down for a few minutes. RL lumpy :-(
    Isen Enzo: The big sorta ephinay for me is that..
    Quilty Bookmite: Hope you are OK Udge
    Isen Enzo: life is not suffering..
    Solobill Laville: Yes, me too Udge
    Isen Enzo: life is wobbly..
    Isen Enzo: suffring is in the second noble truth..
    Moon Fargis: isnt the unevenes the beauty? evenes, like same distances i na picture, makes everything boring, in japanese art tradition this uneveness is a big thing, objects arent placed in the middle, not the same ammount of them aso wich makes it beautifull to watch
    Solobill Laville: I think that is true, Moon
    Solobill Laville: and that is one of the great mysteries
    Isen Enzo: brb
    Isen Enzo: sale
    Fael Illyar: Yes, I think the unevenness is beautiful exactly because it reflects reality :)
    Faenik: ah :)
    Isen Enzo: but do you see what I mean?
    Isen Enzo: a revelation of sortts for me..
    Solobill Laville: There often seems to be quite a link between pain and beauty
    Isen Enzo: life is not suffering, but it sure is uneven!
    Isen Enzo: a basic change to the usual order of the fave four..
    Delani Gabardini: life is not sufferening it is the endless desires that result often in the sufferening
    Moon Fargis: how true
    Faenik: ah :)
    Stim Morane: yes. the view is not that life is unsatisfactory, but that our approach to being imports unsatisfactoriness. Pain is not unsatisfactoriness, pain is just part of life, as you’ve said.
    Delani Gabardini: and i think we must experience it
    Stim Morane: yes

    Our discussion to this point could have been extended to include more pointed or personal considerations of how the “duhkha” theme could be applied to practice, but it was also getting time to consider other matters.

    Delani Gabardini: can I add a new topic that I need some help on
    Udge Watanabe: back
    Moon Fargis: sure
    Delani Gabardini: well - in the heart sutra which i say every day it says form is emptiness and emptiness is form - every time i think i get this concept I realize “i don’t got it”!!
    Delani Gabardini: so can someone elaborate and help me out
    Moon Fargis: sure
    Moon Fargis: do you see the table?
    Delani Gabardini: yup
    Moon Fargis: is there really a table?
    Delani Gabardini: as long as I perceive it as a table i guess it is
    Delani Gabardini: but if I walk away the table on longer exists
    Moon Fargis: does the table really exist?
    Delani Gabardini: well - what is the definition of “exist”
    Moon Fargis: well is is really there or do you think its just a group of red grean and blue dots showed by your monitor interpreted by your eye as table
    Delani Gabardini: Hi dianket
    Delani Gabardini: sorry Moon
    Isen Enzo: apologies- must leave..
    Quilty Bookmite: Bye Isen
    Udge Watanabe: bye Isen, take care
    Delani Gabardini: bye isen
    Moon Fargis: bye isen
    Stim Morane: Bye Isen
    Adams Rubble: Bye Isen
    Delani Gabardini: carlos just went through the floor
    Stim Morane: Delani, the sutra is making a strange but wonderful sort of “matter of fact” claim.
    Fael Illyar: Bye Isen :)
    Stim Morane: Whether or not it’s an “existence” claim is another matter.
    Faenik loves wells!
    Stim Morane: The sutra is talking about sunyata, which is not exactly part of our ordinary understanding.
    Stim Morane: The issue is the “real nature”, the Suchness, of all.
    Delani Gabardini: ty
    Delani Gabardini: that helps
    Delani Gabardini: I am taking this to literally i think
    Quilty Bookmite: I have also read the heart sutra many times. Sometimes bits of it make sense to me.
    Stim Morane: We might agree that things like cars exist, and still say that they are sunya, “empty”.
    Delani Gabardini: carlos is having trouble landing
    Dianket Wobbit: hellow
    Stim Morane: Existence is itself a “codependent arising” thing, which means its nature is qualified.

    By “qualified” I meant “not absolute”. The sutra Delani mentioned is not really saying that ordinary objects don’t exist. The whole class of literature, of which this sutra is a very concise example, is really making a different sort of point than a simple “nonexistence” claim.

    Delani Gabardini: hi carlos - can u sit
    Quilty Bookmite: Hi Dianket
    Delani Gabardini: pls
    Moon Fargis: wb dianket
    Delani Gabardini: everyone this is dianket
    Fael Illyar: Hi Dianket
    Dianket Wobbit: Hi moon hi alll
    Solobill Laville: Hello Dianket
    Stim Morane: its being is not self-generated or guaranteed
    Udge Watanabe: hello Dianket
    Stim Morane: Anyway, the sutra you mention is really talking about the so-called “skandhas”, which are fundamental factors in the appearance of particular forms etc.
    Solobill Laville: Stim, do you think there is a practical relationship between faith and practice in terms of sunyata?
    Dianket Wobbit: like landing on emptinesshaha
    Adams Rubble: I must go. Bye everyone :)
    Delani Gabardini: very good carlos
    Stim Morane: It’s saying all appearance involves factors which are themselves empty in a special sense.
    Delani Gabardini: bye adams
    Solobill Laville: bye adams
    Quilty Bookmite: Bye Adams
    Udge Watanabe: bye adms
    Moon Fargis: bye adams
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Stim Morane: This can indeed be verified.
    Moon Fargis: take us avatars for example
    Solobill Laville: I think that was what I was getting at :)
    Moon Fargis: we are all empty:)
    Stim Morane: faith in that tradition means “the confidence that comes from understanding”.
    Delani Gabardini: well that is my issue - everytime I think I understand I realize that I don’t
    Stim Morane: So as we investigate and come to gradually see something of what being is, “faith” grows, and insight can then grow further …
    Delani Gabardini: and I have been studying for 10 years
    Stim Morane: Yes.
    Stim Morane: How do you feel about that?
    Delani Gabardini: perhaps I should try accepting and not working so hard to analyze
    Delani Gabardini: and ty - that helps
    Moon Fargis: dalani: well your words and thoughts your mind ans knowlledge give things a form
    Stim Morane: We’re all probably in a similar situation. What do the rest of you think or feel re this?
    Moon Fargis: but remove all this terms from thinsg.. what does they be then?
    Stim Morane: Yes, that’s true, Moon.
    Dianket Wobbit: is like i was teached in taichi 1sth do later understand
    Moon Fargis: i guess empty
    Moon Fargis: formless
    Delani Gabardini: i like the tai chi analogy
    Delani Gabardini: very good
    Quilty Bookmite: If I try to intellectualise it I just end up confused.
    Dianket Wobbit: yes
    Quilty Bookmite: If I just “absorb” it it makes some sort of sense.
    Delani Gabardini: u know this really helps me to hear u all comment
    Dianket Wobbit: or be aware of the emptiness
    Stim Morane: Yes, the traditional analysis does seem to us modern people rather “intellectual”. In the original context, it was supplemented by a lot of other training. And for some people, it was and is counter-productive.
    Stim Morane: There are many forms of practice, many roads to appreciating “emptiness”. It’s natural.
    Stim Morane: But maybe it doesn’t come as soon as we would like.
    Quilty Bookmite: You shouldn;t see your understanding of this scripture as a measure of how deep your practice is.
    Stim Morane: Yes, Quilty. A good point!
    Stim Morane: The measure is how you live.
    Delani Gabardini: ty Quilty - I have been feeling like a failure
    Delani Gabardini: in some ways
    Dianket Wobbit: the experience comes when it comes we can not “produce” it, i lost many time messed in producing something
    Faenik: why not?
    Delani Gabardini: ummm
    Quilty Bookmite: Dogen said that training is enlightenment.
    Stim Morane: Yes, it is not “produced”. Even talking about it “coming” is a mistake.
    Dianket Wobbit: yes
    Quilty Bookmite: Just doing your practice is enough.
    Stim Morane: Yes. Dogen’s view is very sane.
    Stim Morane: But he also talked about the importance of sincerity in practice.
    Stim Morane: sorry about spelling
    Dianket Wobbit: i mean coming to concient of what hapened
    Delani Gabardini: spell checker needed here
    Stim Morane: anyway, mechanical practice wouldn’t be “sincere”. But importing a need to see something gets us back to importing unsatisfactoriness again.
    Stim Morane: no worries, as they say down under
    Quilty Bookmite: very good points Stim!
    Moon Fargis is happy he uses a online dictionary now
    Delani Gabardini: yes that is why it is frustrating
    Delani Gabardini: we all need online dictionaries
    Stim Morane: Dogen’s view is very simple-seeming, but also very advanced.
    Quilty Bookmite: To set a target on your practice would lead to unsatisfactoriness.
    Stim Morane: Actually, I am just a spazz … damaged arms = bad typing.
    Delani Gabardini: hehe
    Stim Morane: in advanced practice, wanting enlightenment is definitely a no-no
    Stim Morane: the whole notion that “you are practicing” is a mistake
    Stim Morane: this is the kind of point that the “emptiness” teaching was meant to address.
    Stim Morane: even realization is empty.
    Stim Morane: So no goal.
    Stim Morane: emptiness is empty, etc. You’ve all heard this stuff, I’m sure.
    Stim Morane: What thrilled me about it was that it turns out to be true!
    Fael Illyar: In a way, I have a goal with doing explorations and meditation but it’s very immediate and accomplished by just doing them. Nothing longterm.
    Stim Morane: But even seeing it’s “truth” is another trap.

    Much could be said about the points just raised, but in the process our discussion would have become perhaps too narrowly focused. And then a new participant joined us, opening things up again.

    Delani Gabardini: Dianket is new to this meeting - can someone briefly explain playasbeing
    Quilty Bookmite: I think that is a good thing Fael.
    Delani Gabardini: that was weird
    Stim Morane: Oh, good point. Who is able to present that?
    Delani Gabardini: no takers
    Dianket Wobbit: playasbeing?
    Solobill Laville: http://playasbeing.wordpress.com/
    Solobill Laville: here is the blog
    Moon Fargis: :) lets say in short words, play as being is a 9 second mini meditation every 15 minutes
    Fael Illyar: This is a play as being meeting. :)
    Delani Gabardini: yes - it is sort of an experiential project started by Pema
    Solobill Laville: It is an experiment in experiencing Being
    Delani Gabardini: Pema is a rl astrophysicist
    Moon Fargis: in this 9 seconds you let go yourself from what you are attached atm
    Delani Gabardini: participants stop every 15 mins and for 9 secs let the mind go
    Moon Fargis: realise atleast thats what i do
    Dianket Wobbit: ha like the tradition to play the bell every 20 ´ during samu
    Stim Morane: Yes
    Delani Gabardini: yes
    Stim Morane: it’s admittedly somewhat under-defined. But that is seen here as an advantage.
    Delani Gabardini: and then we have these meetings and sometimes discuss our experience or discuss other topics
    Delani Gabardini: yes it is very free- form
    Delani Gabardini: does anyone want to share what they experienced today?
    Stim Morane: frequent very short appreciative connections to life, to being, are the emphasis.
    Delani Gabardini: sorry brb - rl calls
    Faenik: could be
    Stim Morane: Good question, Delani. Any takers?
    Moon Fargis: ok i think fael has some great experiences made, me as a zennie already got a lowdrived mind so nothing really much changed for me
    Dianket Wobbit: the actualization, to be found one self in building always in an empti camp of blessings
    Solobill Laville: I practice Shikan-taza and find that I quickly get to that point
    Moon Fargis: but it always depends on the person
    Solobill Laville: Yes, to what Moon said
    Fael Illyar: I managed to meditate walking to work quite deeply today.

    Storm had described a type of walking practice to Fael in a previous meeting.

    Fael Illyar: interestingly, it’s starting to not matter that I’m doing something.
    Stim Morane: walking is a natural opportunity for meditation
    Stim Morane: one of the traditional 4
    Fael Illyar: I’ve also tried to meditate while washing dishes :)
    Solobill Laville: That is cool, Fael
    Stim Morane: sure!
    Stim Morane: a classic
    Stim Morane: and sweeping floors!
    Solobill Laville: Awareness :)
    Stim Morane: the secret is always “to do it!”
    Quilty Bookmite: Four, Stim?
    Stim Morane: sitting, standing, walking, lying down
    Quilty Bookmite: Ah. I see. thanks.
    Fael Illyar: standing is the one I’ve done least I think
    Stim Morane: standing is excellent but requires a bit of training
    Fael Illyar: I’ve been doing the lying down while trying to fall asleep every night
    Stim Morane: yes, Fael. A good practice.
    Quilty Bookmite: I used to do Tai Chi. Ifoundit very meditative while standing.
    Fael Illyar: I’m not sure if it counts as I seem to fall asleep rather fast that way
    Stim Morane: Yes, taichi discusses this very well.
    Quilty Bookmite: But I also do walking meditation.
    Dianket Wobbit: do thinks, thinking if it is worthly to do them
    Stim Morane: Hi Cal!
    Fael Illyar: Hi Cal
    Delani Gabardini: recently at my temple we did dancing meditatioin

    I wanted to find out more about this dancing meditation … perhaps another time.

    Delani Gabardini: hi cal
    Dianket Wobbit: Hi Cal
    Solobill Laville: Hello, Cal!
    Caledonia Heron: hi there :)
    Caledonia Heron:
    Quilty Bookmite: It’s amazing how difficult walking slowly can be. :-)
    Quilty Bookmite: Hi Caledonia
    Delani Gabardini: very difficult
    Fael Illyar: Anyway, as for my reason for doing meditation. It keeps my mind clear :)
    Stim Morane: yes, extremely slow walking can cause nausea and blackouts
    Fael Illyar: not meditating for a while makes me feel like I needto clean up
    Stim Morane: we are so used to a control-oriented approach
    Delani Gabardini: and falling over
    Stim Morane: yes, falling.
    Quilty Bookmite: Will you join us Caledonia?
    Faenik: could be
    Stim Morane: if we move too slowly, the control-mania is undermined, which is disturbing.
    Caledonia Heron:
    Quilty Bookmite: OK. :-)
    Caledonia Heron:
    Stim Morane: anyway, there are lots of opportunities
    Stim Morane: for lay people especially, we need to take advantage of them
    Fael Illyar: We should mark these pillows somehow so we can communicate which ones are not taken yet :)
    Stim Morane: How would we do that?

    I was deliberately inviting trouble.

    Moon Fargis: with sirens, fog and glow
    Delani Gabardini: haha
    Solobill Laville: hehe
    Stim Morane: great ideas, Moon. It’ll be very interesting here.
    Moon Fargis: stim:you know the pab logo over there:)
    Stim Morane: yes
    Moon Fargis: i mean what happens when you click on it
    Stim Morane: Yes

    Moon activated the PaB logo present in the PaB tea house. It began showing up with sparks, like a firework some people call a “fountain”.

    Caledonia Heron: yikes
    Delani Gabardini: how od u stop it
    Moon Fargis: oh that where alot of licks
    Quilty Bookmite: Dramatic. :-)
    Udge Watanabe: sorry, I couldn’t resist.
    Moon Fargis: well not by clicking it again :)
    Fael Illyar: waiting, not clicking again
    Delani Gabardini: i just did
    Fael Illyar: every click is 20 seconds
    Stim Morane: :)
    Delani Gabardini: oh no
    Delani Gabardini: yea
    Quilty Bookmite: :-D
    Moon Fargis: well normally this is used to bring a dead discussion up but it alo can be used to let a discussion die
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Stim Morane: oh well
    Moon Fargis: lets enjoy the silence:)

    Moon was right. We just sat for a while and appreciated both the silence and shared presence in the tea house.

    Solobill Laville: :)
    Caledonia Heron: I was on my way here and came across Storm - he showed me the new land by the sea
    Stim Morane: ?
    Solobill Laville: The tiki bar?
    Caledonia Heron: mmm, there is a hut over the sea, maybe a tiki bar, and some land vacated by Club Vice which now bought is Club Nice
    Stim Morane: oh right.
    Solobill Laville: Yep, hope you had sunscreen Cal
    Caledonia Heron: yes, SLNoBurn :)
    Solobill Laville: hehe
    Caledonia Heron:
    Delani Gabardini: well we have covered several topics so u may have come at a good time
    Stim Morane: actually your arrival helped us to enjoy the silence, as Moon suggested
    Caledonia Heron: ok, sure, as is usually the case :)
    Stim Morane: I am very sleepy, though, so I will probably go soon.
    Quilty Bookmite: Must go I’m afraid. Got to feed guinea pigs.
    Quilty Bookmite: :-)
    Caledonia Heron: :)
    Solobill Laville: ty Stim
    Fael Illyar: Ok, See you later Quilty, Stim :)
    Quilty Bookmite: Bye Stim and bye all.
    Solobill Laville: gb QUilty

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