That afternoon, Stim was the guardian. The comments in the log here are his.
I and four others were ready early today, and started to settle in.
Delani Gabardini: i have to find another cushion - don’t like kneeling
Delani Gabardini: better
Quilty Bookmite: Hi Delani
Delani Gabardini: hi quilty
Delani Gabardini: stim
Delani Gabardini: adams
Stim Morane: Hi Delani!
Delani Gabardini: fael and solo
Faenik: ah :)
Solobill Laville: :)
Fael Illyar: :)
Delani Gabardini: oops moon went offline
Fael Illyar: failed teleport I guess?
Quilty Bookmite: Must have been connection problems.
Quilty Bookmite: :-)
Delani Gabardini: wonder if that fellow out there wants to join us
Solobill Laville: brb
Delani Gabardini: here moon is
Moon Fargis: hello everyone
Moon Fargis: yes crashed
Quilty Bookmite: Welcome back Moon
Delani Gabardini: oh no
Stim Morane: Hi Moon
Quilty Bookmite: hi Udge
Delani Gabardini: fael - u have no skirt on
A Second Life bug, only apparent to some of the participants.
Udge Watanabe: hello everyone
Delani Gabardini: hi udge
Udge Watanabe: sorry I’m late
Quilty Bookmite: :-)
Fael Illyar: something bugs, I’ll try relogging
Faenik: indeed?
Udge Watanabe: wb fael
Delani Gabardini: fael don’t worry about your skirt or lack of it
Quilty Bookmite: It looks to be there to me.
Udge Watanabe: you look skirted to me (grey, but skirted :-)
Delani Gabardini: must be the angle
Solobill Laville: I think the issue may be the crosslegged sit
Delani Gabardini: i see bare legs
Solobill Laville: Maybe you should try the kneel
Solobill Laville: The pillow to Adams right is kneel, Fael
Delani Gabardini: good landing isen
Stim Morane: Hi Isen
Quilty Bookmite: Hi Isen
Moon Fargis: wb isen
Adams Rubble: Hello Isen
Solobill Laville: Yes, very smooth Isen :)
Time to get going.
Stim Morane: I’m glad we’re here … what would you all like to discuss?
Moon Fargis: so lets pab a bit :)
Delani Gabardini: adams I finally read your log - very good
Adams Rubble: thank you
Delani Gabardini: topic?
Isen Enzo: Wobbliness?
Solobill Laville: I’m wobbly
This was a reference to several previous discussions of the Buddhist term “duhkha”, often mistranslated as “suffering”.
Quilty Bookmite: Physical wobbliness or spiritual?
Isen Enzo: brb
Solobill Laville: Hi Fael
Quilty Bookmite: hi Fael. Quick change?
Isen Enzo: Wobbliness- i read a translation of “dukkha”…
Solobill Laville: Just what I was thinking Isen!
Delani Gabardini: it doesn’t mean suffering
Fael Illyar: Hello Again
Isen Enzo: that was- dukkha is described as a wobbly axle..
Isen Enzo: maybe on a potters wheel…
Delani Gabardini: well that is suffereing
Isen Enzo: maybe on a cart wheel..
Delani Gabardini: wobbles
Isen Enzo: the idea is that life is wobbly..
Isen Enzo: not even
Moon Fargis looks at delani wobbling
Isen Enzo: and our inabality to put up with the wobbliness..
Isen Enzo: is what caused the suffereng..
Isen Enzo: life is wobbly..
Udge Watanabe: wobbly as “imperfectible”?
Isen Enzo: inability to put up with the unevenness is what brings sufering.
Isen Enzo: yes
Quilty Bookmite: Continuously changing?
Isen Enzo: wobbly is the best it will get..
Isen Enzo: never even..
Delani Gabardini: unstability
Isen Enzo: never smooth..
Isen Enzo: kinda, but not quiet..
Isen Enzo: lumpy..
Isen Enzo: bumpy
Fael Illyar: Wobbly as in constantly moving/changing. If you can’t accept the changes, you’ll suffer.
Isen Enzo: yes!
Delani Gabardini: moon carlos is coming
Udge Watanabe: (sorry, I have to lie down for a few minutes. RL lumpy :-(
Isen Enzo: The big sorta ephinay for me is that..
Quilty Bookmite: Hope you are OK Udge
Isen Enzo: life is not suffering..
Solobill Laville: Yes, me too Udge
Isen Enzo: life is wobbly..
Isen Enzo: suffring is in the second noble truth..
Moon Fargis: isnt the unevenes the beauty? evenes, like same distances i na picture, makes everything boring, in japanese art tradition this uneveness is a big thing, objects arent placed in the middle, not the same ammount of them aso wich makes it beautifull to watch
Solobill Laville: I think that is true, Moon
Solobill Laville: and that is one of the great mysteries
Isen Enzo: brb
Isen Enzo: sale
Fael Illyar: Yes, I think the unevenness is beautiful exactly because it reflects reality :)
Faenik: ah :)
Isen Enzo: but do you see what I mean?
Isen Enzo: a revelation of sortts for me..
Solobill Laville: There often seems to be quite a link between pain and beauty
Isen Enzo: life is not suffering, but it sure is uneven!
Isen Enzo: a basic change to the usual order of the fave four..
Delani Gabardini: life is not sufferening it is the endless desires that result often in the sufferening
Moon Fargis: how true
Faenik: ah :)
Stim Morane: yes. the view is not that life is unsatisfactory, but that our approach to being imports unsatisfactoriness. Pain is not unsatisfactoriness, pain is just part of life, as you’ve said.
Delani Gabardini: and i think we must experience it
Stim Morane: yes
Our discussion to this point could have been extended to include more pointed or personal considerations of how the “duhkha” theme could be applied to practice, but it was also getting time to consider other matters.
Delani Gabardini: can I add a new topic that I need some help on
Udge Watanabe: back
Moon Fargis: sure
Delani Gabardini: well - in the heart sutra which i say every day it says form is emptiness and emptiness is form - every time i think i get this concept I realize “i don’t got it”!!
Delani Gabardini: so can someone elaborate and help me out
Moon Fargis: sure
Moon Fargis: do you see the table?
Delani Gabardini: yup
Moon Fargis: is there really a table?
Delani Gabardini: as long as I perceive it as a table i guess it is
Delani Gabardini: but if I walk away the table on longer exists
Moon Fargis: does the table really exist?
Delani Gabardini: well - what is the definition of “exist”
Moon Fargis: well is is really there or do you think its just a group of red grean and blue dots showed by your monitor interpreted by your eye as table
Delani Gabardini: Hi dianket
Delani Gabardini: sorry Moon
Isen Enzo: apologies- must leave..
Quilty Bookmite: Bye Isen
Udge Watanabe: bye Isen, take care
Delani Gabardini: bye isen
Moon Fargis: bye isen
Stim Morane: Bye Isen
Adams Rubble: Bye Isen
Delani Gabardini: carlos just went through the floor
Stim Morane: Delani, the sutra is making a strange but wonderful sort of “matter of fact” claim.
Fael Illyar: Bye Isen :)
Stim Morane: Whether or not it’s an “existence” claim is another matter.
Faenik loves wells!
Stim Morane: The sutra is talking about sunyata, which is not exactly part of our ordinary understanding.
Stim Morane: The issue is the “real nature”, the Suchness, of all.
Delani Gabardini: ty
Delani Gabardini: that helps
Delani Gabardini: I am taking this to literally i think
Quilty Bookmite: I have also read the heart sutra many times. Sometimes bits of it make sense to me.
Stim Morane: We might agree that things like cars exist, and still say that they are sunya, “empty”.
Delani Gabardini: carlos is having trouble landing
Dianket Wobbit: hellow
Stim Morane: Existence is itself a “codependent arising” thing, which means its nature is qualified.
By “qualified” I meant “not absolute”. The sutra Delani mentioned is not really saying that ordinary objects don’t exist. The whole class of literature, of which this sutra is a very concise example, is really making a different sort of point than a simple “nonexistence” claim.
Delani Gabardini: hi carlos - can u sit
Quilty Bookmite: Hi Dianket
Delani Gabardini: pls
Moon Fargis: wb dianket
Delani Gabardini: everyone this is dianket
Fael Illyar: Hi Dianket
Dianket Wobbit: Hi moon hi alll
Solobill Laville: Hello Dianket
Stim Morane: its being is not self-generated or guaranteed
Udge Watanabe: hello Dianket
Stim Morane: Anyway, the sutra you mention is really talking about the so-called “skandhas”, which are fundamental factors in the appearance of particular forms etc.
Solobill Laville: Stim, do you think there is a practical relationship between faith and practice in terms of sunyata?
Dianket Wobbit: like landing on emptinesshaha
Adams Rubble: I must go. Bye everyone :)
Delani Gabardini: very good carlos
Stim Morane: It’s saying all appearance involves factors which are themselves empty in a special sense.
Delani Gabardini: bye adams
Solobill Laville: bye adams
Quilty Bookmite: Bye Adams
Udge Watanabe: bye adms
Moon Fargis: bye adams
Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
Stim Morane: This can indeed be verified.
Moon Fargis: take us avatars for example
Solobill Laville: I think that was what I was getting at :)
Moon Fargis: we are all empty:)
Stim Morane: faith in that tradition means “the confidence that comes from understanding”.
Delani Gabardini: well that is my issue - everytime I think I understand I realize that I don’t
Stim Morane: So as we investigate and come to gradually see something of what being is, “faith” grows, and insight can then grow further …
Delani Gabardini: and I have been studying for 10 years
Stim Morane: Yes.
Stim Morane: How do you feel about that?
Delani Gabardini: perhaps I should try accepting and not working so hard to analyze
Delani Gabardini: and ty - that helps
Moon Fargis: dalani: well your words and thoughts your mind ans knowlledge give things a form
Stim Morane: We’re all probably in a similar situation. What do the rest of you think or feel re this?
Moon Fargis: but remove all this terms from thinsg.. what does they be then?
Stim Morane: Yes, that’s true, Moon.
Dianket Wobbit: is like i was teached in taichi 1sth do later understand
Moon Fargis: i guess empty
Moon Fargis: formless
Delani Gabardini: i like the tai chi analogy
Delani Gabardini: very good
Quilty Bookmite: If I try to intellectualise it I just end up confused.
Dianket Wobbit: yes
Quilty Bookmite: If I just “absorb” it it makes some sort of sense.
Delani Gabardini: u know this really helps me to hear u all comment
Dianket Wobbit: or be aware of the emptiness
Stim Morane: Yes, the traditional analysis does seem to us modern people rather “intellectual”. In the original context, it was supplemented by a lot of other training. And for some people, it was and is counter-productive.
Stim Morane: There are many forms of practice, many roads to appreciating “emptiness”. It’s natural.
Stim Morane: But maybe it doesn’t come as soon as we would like.
Quilty Bookmite: You shouldn;t see your understanding of this scripture as a measure of how deep your practice is.
Stim Morane: Yes, Quilty. A good point!
Stim Morane: The measure is how you live.
Delani Gabardini: ty Quilty - I have been feeling like a failure
Delani Gabardini: in some ways
Dianket Wobbit: the experience comes when it comes we can not “produce” it, i lost many time messed in producing something
Faenik: why not?
Delani Gabardini: ummm
Quilty Bookmite: Dogen said that training is enlightenment.
Stim Morane: Yes, it is not “produced”. Even talking about it “coming” is a mistake.
Dianket Wobbit: yes
Quilty Bookmite: Just doing your practice is enough.
Stim Morane: Yes. Dogen’s view is very sane.
Stim Morane: But he also talked about the importance of sincerity in practice.
Stim Morane: sorry about spelling
Dianket Wobbit: i mean coming to concient of what hapened
Delani Gabardini: spell checker needed here
Stim Morane: anyway, mechanical practice wouldn’t be “sincere”. But importing a need to see something gets us back to importing unsatisfactoriness again.
Stim Morane: no worries, as they say down under
Quilty Bookmite: very good points Stim!
Moon Fargis is happy he uses a online dictionary now
Delani Gabardini: yes that is why it is frustrating
Delani Gabardini: we all need online dictionaries
Stim Morane: Dogen’s view is very simple-seeming, but also very advanced.
Quilty Bookmite: To set a target on your practice would lead to unsatisfactoriness.
Stim Morane: Actually, I am just a spazz … damaged arms = bad typing.
Delani Gabardini: hehe
Stim Morane: in advanced practice, wanting enlightenment is definitely a no-no
Stim Morane: the whole notion that “you are practicing” is a mistake
Stim Morane: this is the kind of point that the “emptiness” teaching was meant to address.
Stim Morane: even realization is empty.
Stim Morane: So no goal.
Stim Morane: emptiness is empty, etc. You’ve all heard this stuff, I’m sure.
Stim Morane: What thrilled me about it was that it turns out to be true!
Fael Illyar: In a way, I have a goal with doing explorations and meditation but it’s very immediate and accomplished by just doing them. Nothing longterm.
Stim Morane: But even seeing it’s “truth” is another trap.
Much could be said about the points just raised, but in the process our discussion would have become perhaps too narrowly focused. And then a new participant joined us, opening things up again.
Delani Gabardini: Dianket is new to this meeting - can someone briefly explain playasbeing
Quilty Bookmite: I think that is a good thing Fael.
Delani Gabardini: that was weird
Stim Morane: Oh, good point. Who is able to present that?
Delani Gabardini: no takers
Dianket Wobbit: playasbeing?
Solobill Laville: http://playasbeing.wordpress.com/
Solobill Laville: here is the blog
Moon Fargis: :) lets say in short words, play as being is a 9 second mini meditation every 15 minutes
Fael Illyar: This is a play as being meeting. :)
Delani Gabardini: yes - it is sort of an experiential project started by Pema
Solobill Laville: It is an experiment in experiencing Being
Delani Gabardini: Pema is a rl astrophysicist
Moon Fargis: in this 9 seconds you let go yourself from what you are attached atm
Delani Gabardini: participants stop every 15 mins and for 9 secs let the mind go
Moon Fargis: realise atleast thats what i do
Dianket Wobbit: ha like the tradition to play the bell every 20 ´ during samu
Stim Morane: Yes
Delani Gabardini: yes
Stim Morane: it’s admittedly somewhat under-defined. But that is seen here as an advantage.
Delani Gabardini: and then we have these meetings and sometimes discuss our experience or discuss other topics
Delani Gabardini: yes it is very free- form
Delani Gabardini: does anyone want to share what they experienced today?
Stim Morane: frequent very short appreciative connections to life, to being, are the emphasis.
Delani Gabardini: sorry brb - rl calls
Faenik: could be
Stim Morane: Good question, Delani. Any takers?
Moon Fargis: ok i think fael has some great experiences made, me as a zennie already got a lowdrived mind so nothing really much changed for me
Dianket Wobbit: the actualization, to be found one self in building always in an empti camp of blessings
Solobill Laville: I practice Shikan-taza and find that I quickly get to that point
Moon Fargis: but it always depends on the person
Solobill Laville: Yes, to what Moon said
Fael Illyar: I managed to meditate walking to work quite deeply today.
Storm had described a type of walking practice to Fael in a previous meeting.
Fael Illyar: interestingly, it’s starting to not matter that I’m doing something.
Stim Morane: walking is a natural opportunity for meditation
Stim Morane: one of the traditional 4
Fael Illyar: I’ve also tried to meditate while washing dishes :)
Solobill Laville: That is cool, Fael
Stim Morane: sure!
Stim Morane: a classic
Stim Morane: and sweeping floors!
Solobill Laville: Awareness :)
Stim Morane: the secret is always “to do it!”
Quilty Bookmite: Four, Stim?
Stim Morane: sitting, standing, walking, lying down
Quilty Bookmite: Ah. I see. thanks.
Fael Illyar: standing is the one I’ve done least I think
Stim Morane: standing is excellent but requires a bit of training
Fael Illyar: I’ve been doing the lying down while trying to fall asleep every night
Stim Morane: yes, Fael. A good practice.
Quilty Bookmite: I used to do Tai Chi. Ifoundit very meditative while standing.
Fael Illyar: I’m not sure if it counts as I seem to fall asleep rather fast that way
Stim Morane: Yes, taichi discusses this very well.
Quilty Bookmite: But I also do walking meditation.
Dianket Wobbit: do thinks, thinking if it is worthly to do them
Stim Morane: Hi Cal!
Fael Illyar: Hi Cal
Delani Gabardini: recently at my temple we did dancing meditatioin
I wanted to find out more about this dancing meditation … perhaps another time.
Delani Gabardini: hi cal
Dianket Wobbit: Hi Cal
Solobill Laville: Hello, Cal!
Caledonia Heron: hi there :)
Caledonia Heron:
Quilty Bookmite: It’s amazing how difficult walking slowly can be. :-)
Quilty Bookmite: Hi Caledonia
Delani Gabardini: very difficult
Fael Illyar: Anyway, as for my reason for doing meditation. It keeps my mind clear :)
Stim Morane: yes, extremely slow walking can cause nausea and blackouts
Fael Illyar: not meditating for a while makes me feel like I needto clean up
Stim Morane: we are so used to a control-oriented approach
Delani Gabardini: and falling over
Stim Morane: yes, falling.
Quilty Bookmite: Will you join us Caledonia?
Faenik: could be
Stim Morane: if we move too slowly, the control-mania is undermined, which is disturbing.
Caledonia Heron:
Quilty Bookmite: OK. :-)
Caledonia Heron:
Stim Morane: anyway, there are lots of opportunities
Stim Morane: for lay people especially, we need to take advantage of them
Fael Illyar: We should mark these pillows somehow so we can communicate which ones are not taken yet :)
Stim Morane: How would we do that?
I was deliberately inviting trouble.
Moon Fargis: with sirens, fog and glow
Delani Gabardini: haha
Solobill Laville: hehe
Stim Morane: great ideas, Moon. It’ll be very interesting here.
Moon Fargis: stim:you know the pab logo over there:)
Stim Morane: yes
Moon Fargis: i mean what happens when you click on it
Stim Morane: Yes
Moon activated the PaB logo present in the PaB tea house. It began showing up with sparks, like a firework some people call a “fountain”.
Caledonia Heron: yikes
Delani Gabardini: how od u stop it
Moon Fargis: oh that where alot of licks
Quilty Bookmite: Dramatic. :-)
Udge Watanabe: sorry, I couldn’t resist.
Moon Fargis: well not by clicking it again :)
Fael Illyar: waiting, not clicking again
Delani Gabardini: i just did
Fael Illyar: every click is 20 seconds
Stim Morane: :)
Delani Gabardini: oh no
Delani Gabardini: yea
Quilty Bookmite: :-D
Moon Fargis: well normally this is used to bring a dead discussion up but it alo can be used to let a discussion die
Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
Stim Morane: oh well
Moon Fargis: lets enjoy the silence:)
Moon was right. We just sat for a while and appreciated both the silence and shared presence in the tea house.
Solobill Laville: :)
Caledonia Heron: I was on my way here and came across Storm - he showed me the new land by the sea
Stim Morane: ?
Solobill Laville: The tiki bar?
Caledonia Heron: mmm, there is a hut over the sea, maybe a tiki bar, and some land vacated by Club Vice which now bought is Club Nice
Stim Morane: oh right.
Solobill Laville: Yep, hope you had sunscreen Cal
Caledonia Heron: yes, SLNoBurn :)
Solobill Laville: hehe
Caledonia Heron:
Delani Gabardini: well we have covered several topics so u may have come at a good time
Stim Morane: actually your arrival helped us to enjoy the silence, as Moon suggested
Caledonia Heron: ok, sure, as is usually the case :)
Stim Morane: I am very sleepy, though, so I will probably go soon.
Quilty Bookmite: Must go I’m afraid. Got to feed guinea pigs.
Quilty Bookmite: :-)
Caledonia Heron: :)
Solobill Laville: ty Stim
Fael Illyar: Ok, See you later Quilty, Stim :)
Quilty Bookmite: Bye Stim and bye all.
Solobill Laville: gb QUilty
