2008.07.31 01:00 - From YSBS to ESBS

That night I met Gaya, and after a while Sky joined us as well.

Pema Pera: morning, Gaya!
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Gaya Ethaniel: How are you feeling?
Pema Pera: oh, fine, a bit sleepy, but that's okay :-)
Pema Pera: and you?
Gaya Ethaniel: Just a little tired otherwise ok
Pema Pera: have you been playing with the YSBS exploration, lately?
Gaya Ethaniel: I don't do it consciously Pema. But I talked about it in the context of 'autopilot' with Adele and Caledonia. You?
Gaya Ethaniel: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/2008/07/2008.07.30_07%3a00_-_Autopilot_and_the_Sweet_Spot
Pema Pera: Ah, I haven't read that yet, but will do so, of course
Gaya Ethaniel: btw log for 28 1AM is missing (we talked about YSBS)
Pema Pera: I'm a few days behind, going through everything, and loading it up on the PaB blog at the same time
Gaya Ethaniel: It's ok Pema
Pema Pera: looking forward to catching up :)
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Gaya Ethaniel: Quite today
Gaya Ethaniel: quiet*
Pema Pera: yes, it fluctuates
Gaya Ethaniel: brb
Pema Pera: sure, np
Pema Pera: Hi Sky!
Pema Pera: welcome under the night sky :)
Sky Szimmer: hey there.
Sky Szimmer: nice and quiet
Pema Pera: it must be just as late -- or early -- for you as for me :-)
Sky Szimmer: : )
Pema Pera: yeah, Gaya is afk for a bit
Sky Szimmer: can't sleep
Pema Pera: does that often happen?
Sky Szimmer: no. late though.
Sky Szimmer: this PaB is disturbing my sleep some
Pema Pera: recently, or for a while already?
Sky Szimmer: for some time
Gaya Ethaniel: back
Sky Szimmer: i like to relax into it at night, but then sometimes it keeps me up
Gaya Ethaniel: thinking about PaB?
Sky Szimmer: yup.
Gaya Ethaniel: i do have a trick for that
Sky Szimmer: do tell
Gaya Ethaniel: do body sweeping while lying down in bed - very similar to hypnosis
Gaya Ethaniel: though... it doesn't always work for me
Sky Szimmer: yes. thank you for the suggestion.
Gaya Ethaniel: np Sky

 

The conversation went to the topic of relative and ultimate ways of viewing reality.

 

Sky Szimmer: had an interesting chat this afternoon with quilty, avastu and gen
Gaya Ethaniel: Please tell us
Sky Szimmer: its about relative v. ultimate reality
Sky Szimmer: avastu doesn't seem to indulge the notion of of relative reality
Gaya Ethaniel: what was the definition we guys agreed upon in regards to r & u r?
Sky Szimmer: relative reality of having responsibilities and consequences
Sky Szimmer: we didn't define it exactly
Gaya Ethaniel: i c
Gaya Ethaniel: maybe examples could help
Sky Szimmer: ultimately who has responsibilities
Sky Szimmer: as there is no doer
Sky Szimmer: all happens
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Sky Szimmer: get the picture
Gaya Ethaniel: yes
Sky Szimmer: so, taking care of my child just happens
Sky Szimmer: i am not responsible
Sky Szimmer: hard to fly with that
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Sky Szimmer: i see his point
Pema Pera: well, "I am not responsible" is a mix
Sky Szimmer: ultimately
Pema Pera: when there is an "i"
Pema Pera: that I should be responsible, don't you think?
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Pema Pera: the "i" is in the relative picture
Sky Szimmer: i agree
Gaya Ethaniel: otherwise it's just the way it is
Sky Szimmer: i see your point
Pema Pera: and there responsibility is really important
Pema Pera: it can be quite dangerous to mix elements from the two pictures
Gaya Ethaniel: Please expand that point Pema?
Sky Szimmer: quite so. avastus doesn't respond too clearly on that one
Sky Szimmer: i understand his point but can be easily misconstrued
Pema Pera: if we really stay in the relative part, we can try to live our life as well as we can there, Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Pema Pera: and if we squarely jump to the absolute part, that's fine too

 

I brought up the unavoidable problem of mixing up the two, the absolute and the relative, and getting confused about them -- but as long as we can see that danger, we can try to deal with it as best we can.

 

Pema Pera: but the problem is that all of us have the tendency -- me included -- to do it half-way
Gaya Ethaniel: the decision depends on personal circumstances isn't it?
Pema Pera: and it is very important to notice that
Pema Pera: it is not so much a decision, perhaps
Pema Pera: as so much lingering habits
Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok
Pema Pera: for a moment we get a glimpse of the absolute
Pema Pera: the next moment we're back in the relative
Pema Pera: but still we try to hold on to the picture of the absolute
Sky Szimmer: exactly Pema. lingering habits, so when we are in the "i" picture, we should act responsibly and when we are in the Being picture, all is oK
Pema Pera: trying to translate it into relative terms
Pema Pera: yes, Sky
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Pema Pera: but trying to embed the absolute in terms of the content of memory in the relative is the dangerous part
Gaya Ethaniel: so be aware of where we are and be responsive to each situation?
Pema Pera: there is where arrogance and pride and confusion can easily come about
Gaya Ethaniel: i c
Pema Pera: yes, Gaya
Pema Pera: and in case of doubt, leave it out (the absolute perspective)
Pema Pera: :)
Sky Szimmer: yes it is easy to get sucked into the arrogance, pride and confusion
Gaya Ethaniel: so an example for the dangerous situation could be clinging onto the experience of Being?
Pema Pera: sure, yes
Sky Szimmer: because we have a memory and an insight
Gaya Ethaniel often feels like being arrogant discussing Being at PaB
Pema Pera: Being sees a glimpse of Being, and then a moment later, the "I" says "hey, that's great, I just saw Being" -- and that's putting things on its head
Sky Szimmer: I do that one alot
Gaya Ethaniel: Guilt attack!
Pema Pera: but saying "wow, Being saw Being, how neat, I'd like to learn to step aside better and more often" -- that's perfect
Gaya Ethaniel: i c
Sky Szimmer: me too
Gaya Ethaniel: so these days, RL person talks to Gaya about it, feels better for it
Pema Pera: ;)
Gaya Ethaniel: it helps me to realise it's not a 'person' being aware of Being... does it make sense?
Pema Pera: yes, that's crucial
Pema Pera: central
Pema Pera: a person can never be aware of Being
Gaya Ethaniel: but it's akward when talking in PaB though
Pema Pera: sure
Pema Pera: and we have to bend words and language to talk
Gaya Ethaniel sighs
Pema Pera: I often talk losely, hoping the context is clear
Pema Pera: Avastu is more systematic
Gaya Ethaniel: i c
Pema Pera: each has its advantage
Pema Pera: more systematic is more precise, for sure
Pema Pera: more loose may sometimes help to get the flavor more
Gaya Ethaniel talks very loosely
Pema Pera: I like both :)
Gaya Ethaniel: yes agree Pema
Pema Pera: it would be nice to be able to type in two colors
Pema Pera: so we know for each sentence which was is in the relative, and which is the absolute realm

 

Gaya hit the nail on the head.

 

Gaya Ethaniel: different people at PaB offer unique point of views that i can absorb as i see it fit
Sky Szimmer: so, i like to ask about perspective or point of view
Pema Pera: yes, Sky?
Gaya Ethaniel: sure
Pema Pera: and yes, Gaya!
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Sky Szimmer: it seems that in doing the exercise, there is a wider opening in the perspective
Pema Pera: yes
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Sky Szimmer: so it is not so much "seeing" through the eyes right?
Gaya Ethaniel: no i don't think so
Gaya Ethaniel: i maybe sometimes see through Pema's eyes
Pema Pera: you mean the BS part of YSBS, Sky?
Sky Szimmer: yes.
Gaya Ethaniel: oh ok
Pema Pera: indeed, not through the eyes
Gaya Ethaniel: no... not through eyes
Pema Pera: you let Being see
Pema Pera: Being sees in/as everything
Pema Pera: Being has no need for eyes
Pema Pera: no need for you even
Pema Pera: certainly no need for your eyes :-)
Sky Szimmer: but still, I sense that the perspective is still somewhat linked to my body
Pema Pera: no
Pema Pera: it isn't
Sky Szimmer: it is not like i am floating above and looking down as i do now
Pema Pera: the light of the projector is not linked to any particular person appearing in the movie
Pema Pera: can you say more, Sky?
Gaya Ethaniel: maybe Pema, Sky is talking about my previous experience we talked about
Gaya Ethaniel: like something looking down above my body
Sky Szimmer: i sense what you just described
Sky Szimmer: Pema
Sky Szimmer: but yet I can't see in back of my head, i can't see above myself
Sky Szimmer: my point of view is still through "mouseview"
Pema Pera: that is YS in YSBS
Pema Pera: the BS part has no perspective
Pema Pera: no vantage point
Pema Pera: it is everywhere, like mist floating in a valley
Sky Szimmer: ah. i sense what you are saying. i am not there yet
Pema Pera: like the love of a mother being everywhere in the room of the child
Pema Pera: you will never be there ;)
Sky Szimmer: the awareness is not there yet
Pema Pera: but you can step aside
Pema Pera: and let Being be there
Sky Szimmer: i haven't been able to let go completely
Pema Pera: Being is already there
Pema Pera: yes, Sky, and it is interesting to look more closely at that

We then got into a more slow and careful scrutiny of what is hard about stepping aside.

 

Sky Szimmer: yes. but I haven't been able to step aside completely
Sky Szimmer: maybe it is too much observation
Pema Pera: now how do you know that?
Pema Pera: let us go slowly
Gaya Ethaniel: it will come Sky... naturally
Pema Pera: what does it mean
Sky Szimmer: what
Pema Pera: that you haven't been able to step aside?
Pema Pera: can you describe that
Pema Pera: carefully
Sky Szimmer: i have a perspective
Pema Pera: let us take little steps here
Pema Pera: yes?
Sky Szimmer: a consciousness
Sky Szimmer: so when i look out into the world, i see it through the consciousness
Sky Szimmer: i am aware of all that is
Sky Szimmer: including myself
Pema Pera: yes
Sky Szimmer: but then, even if I am not fully aware of my body, I am still somewhat looking through it
Gaya Ethaniel: sounds like you're doing 'BS' except maybe too caught up with 'seeing' part literally
Sky Szimmer: not consciously
Sky Szimmer: let me rephrase
Gaya Ethaniel: please
Pema Pera: yes please
Sky Szimmer: when I look out, i am conscious of everything including my body
Sky Szimmer: i view
Sky Szimmer: view from the body
Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok
Sky Szimmer: though there is an awareness there is no body
Sky Szimmer: this is so mumble jumble
Gaya Ethaniel: no Sky i understand you here
Pema Pera: yes, that is the normal way of looking, the way you usually view the world, the YS part, right?
Sky Szimmer: no.
Pema Pera: no?
Sky Szimmer: i think it is different
Gaya Ethaniel: to me you sound as though half way there
Gaya Ethaniel: later you would not 'see' yourself in that experience
Sky Szimmer: in YS, it is not as expansive
Pema Pera: ah, but you said "i view"
Pema Pera: isn't that YS?
Sky Szimmer: no consciousness view
Sky Szimmer: awareness of all that is going on

This seemed like a good time to introduce a more radical version of YSBS, one that had occurred to me earlier, about a week ago, and that I had briefly mentioned to Sky when I met her in RL several days ago.

 

Pema Pera: Perhaps it is time to sharpen YSBS here, as we discussed when we met in RL, Sky
Pema Pera: Let me summarize for Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: please
Sky Szimmer: there are no borders between the body within and without
Sky Szimmer: please
Pema Pera: Originally, when first talking about YSBS, almost two weeks ago,
Pema Pera: I considered YS the normal, every-day way of looking at the world, without trying to practice or look in any special way
Pema Pera: and BS the way to let Being see.
Pema Pera: But then an alternative form offered itself later
Pema Pera: and I mentioned that to Sky when we met
Pema Pera: namely to do the YS in a kind of idealized way.
Pema Pera: let me explain:
Pema Pera: you can imagine how it would be to do the YS part if you were fully enlightened
Pema Pera: imagine that you had practiced for many lifetimes
Gaya Ethaniel: if fully enlightened, surely there is no distinction between YS & BS?
Pema Pera: and you had reached the best possible way of seeing, living, being as a person, but still as a person, with a you who would be a super-realized you
Pema Pera: how would it be to see as that you, in YS?
Pema Pera: And then you can contrast that with BS
Pema Pera: letting Being see
Pema Pera: most likely, initially, there is no difference
Sky Szimmer: i agree with Gaya. Wouldn't that be the same, an enlightened one and Being
Pema Pera: but after some practice, you might see some difference
Gaya Ethaniel: Pema - are you saying that the fully enlightened person would have different 'characters' to deal with different relative realities and ultimate reality as they arise
Pema Pera: no, let me be careful and slow in trying to describe this new YSBS
Gaya Ethaniel: pls
Pema Pera: hmmm, let us give it a different name

Sky typed it before I could do so :-)

 

Sky Szimmer: ESBS
Pema Pera: yes
Pema Pera: was just thinking about that too :)
Pema Pera: Enlightened you seeing vs Being seeing
Pema Pera: So what do I mean with ES?
Sky Szimmer: i can't wait
Pema Pera: If we try . . . hahahaha
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Pema Pera: . . . . nice weather today, isn't it, Sky, here in SL ?
Gaya Ethaniel: pls tell me what an 'englightened you' means here
Pema Pera: I really enjoy meeting you all here
Sky Szimmer: geez
Pema Pera: . . . . just teasing Sky
Pema Pera: hehehe
Pema Pera: sorry, try again.
Gaya Ethaniel: thanks

Just couldn't help myself :). But then I continued.

Pema Pera: We are speaking now on the relative level, right? Let us establish that first
Sky Szimmer: good
Gaya Ethaniel: in terms of YS?
Sky Szimmer: ES
Pema Pera: even when we talk about "absolute level" here we are talking within the relative level about the absolute level
Pema Pera: slowly!
Gaya Ethaniel: or ES sure but just waiting for definition of E
Pema Pera: please :)
Pema Pera: before any YS ES or BS
Gaya Ethaniel slowly takes her hands off keyboard

:>)

Pema Pera: let us first establisht the paradox of talking about relative vs absolute all within the relative
Pema Pera: any words we are using here are firmly embedded in the relative
Sky Szimmer: but... you like keeping me hanging... : )
Pema Pera: so when I say "absolute" I use a relative word "absolute" within a relative sentence in relative points of view that we all share here, hoping that it somehow can point to something else, labeled absolute, right?
Pema Pera: sorry to go so slow, but this is crucial
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Pema Pera: no, this time no teasing, Sky

I really wanted to make sure that we were careful with this relative vs. absolute distinction, that we always have to discuss within the relative realm of words and sentences. Just at that time Vertigo dropped in again.

 

Pema Pera: hi Vertigo!
Gaya Ethaniel: I'm with you so far Pema
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Sky Szimmer: pls go on
Vertigo Ethaniel: whoops, this is where i logged out
Vertigo Ethaniel: hi
Pema Pera: welcome back, Vertigo
Pema Pera: so when we now talk about enligthenment, we are trying to picture what that could be
Pema Pera: and we may have a naive picture as a kind of hero or super-human
Pema Pera: or we can have a very sophisticated picture of someone having stepped aside, as I like to say
Pema Pera: but whatever picture we have, as long as it is a picture, it is in effect still a YS version
Pema Pera: no matter how refined
Gaya Ethaniel: but that someone is unable to step aside all the time or always stepped aside Pema?
Pema Pera: well, Gaya, that's an interesting question, but if you don't mind, let's keep that question on hold for just a few minutes
Gaya Ethaniel: sure
Gaya Ethaniel: so i guess looking at your statement [2:01] Pema Pera: but whatever picture we have, as long as it is a picture, it is in effect still a YS version - my question is not really relevant
Pema Pera: I'd like to make the point that no matter how clever or experienced or intuitively cool we are -- anything we can think about or imagine about a fully enlightened person is still a version of YS
Sky Szimmer: ah. when i picture an enlightened person, i am still seeing a person there, but maybe in ES, there is no person there?
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Gaya Ethaniel: i'm with you Pema
Sky Szimmer: am i with you Pema
Pema Pera: this is very subtle
Pema Pera: in ES, there is a person thinking there is no person
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Pema Pera: a very good try
Pema Pera: important to try to do
Pema Pera: and also very important then to notice how that fails
Sky Szimmer: ah. in Being, there is no person thinking there is no person
Sky Szimmer: right?
Gaya Ethaniel: mm hmm
Pema Pera: six hours ago Adelene talked about the importance of failure
Pema Pera: exactly, Sky
Pema Pera: so if we contrast ES and BS
Pema Pera: we may get a sense fo the subtle difference between the two
Pema Pera: subtle but HUGE
Sky Szimmer: this is subtle alright and it is HUGE!
Gaya Ethaniel is all ears
Sky Szimmer: me too
Pema Pera: :)

I had the feeling that we were coming closer now in describing the new ESBS exploration. This one is even more tricky to point out than the YSBS one! And like with YSBS, there is not just one way of doing it, as Storm reminded us so clearly, not even ten or a hundred, bur myriad ways.

 

Sky Szimmer: thanks. good assignment. didn't understand it before
Pema Pera: so in ES there is a "be all you can be"
Sky Szimmer: when we met
Pema Pera: yes, this is really hard, Sky
Pema Pera: and there are many many levels
Pema Pera: you can do this for the rest of your life
Pema Pera: and discover new levels all the time
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Pema Pera: more and more subtle ways of noticing how there is some egg shell of the self left sticking to what you thought was BS
Pema Pera: Being Seeing
Vertigo Ethaniel: interesting discussion
Vertigo Ethaniel: i will add something when ive listened a bit longer
Pema Pera: I don't know whether this makes sense, Vertigo
Pema Pera: please, go ahead, Vertigo -- your name is so appropriate here :-)

It really is! I had to think of Richard Feynman, who said about quantum mechanics something like "if it doesn't drive you crazy, you haven't yet understood it". As for ESBS, if you don't get some kind of vertigo at some point, you probably haven't gotten a glimpse of it :-). This is not to say that we have to push ourselves hard. I agree with Maxine and others that we have to be kind and careful with ourselves. The main point is to learn to step aside. And then, when we think we did, step more aside. And more. And more. And then we see that there are still a zillion layers of more subtle self left. We drop that too. And so on.

Sky Szimmer: Thanks Pema. Got to run. My other half doesnn't understand why I am still up
Sky Szimmer: uh oh
Pema Pera: it is all Vertigo from here on
Pema Pera: bye Sky!
Vertigo Ethaniel: i have no subject for discussion :)
Pema Pera: :)
Vertigo Ethaniel: my mind is calm
Gaya Ethaniel: Missed Sky... was making a note
Pema Pera: yes, Gaya?
Gaya Ethaniel: I was making a note about what we just discussed - the subtle difference and misssed Sky going :(
Pema Pera: she went superfast
Pema Pera: RL calling her back :)
Gaya Ethaniel: yea
Gaya Ethaniel: so Pema in regards to E
Gaya Ethaniel: really there isn't a being that is enlightened we could say?
Pema Pera: actually, I should probably get some sleep too, the second half of my night rest -- but please, continue, I can hang in for a bit longer
Pema Pera: that is correct Gaya
Pema Pera: the whole notion of enlightenment is totally false
Vertigo Ethaniel: its depends on what you define as enlightened
Pema Pera: absolutely speaking
Pema Pera: and yet can be very inspiring, relatively speaking
Gaya Ethaniel: wow... finally i think i understand what you meant Pema when you said the other day " 'fully enlightened' "
Pema Pera: paradox of paradoxes
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Pema Pera: everything is fully enlightened as it is, already . . . .
Pema Pera: "reaching" enlightenment is totally impossible
Gaya Ethaniel nods

Vertigo introduced another angle.

Vertigo Ethaniel: i consider the journey to enlightenment what counts
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Pema Pera: can you say more, Vertigo?
Vertigo Ethaniel: life is a thing to be cherished and enjoyed, and enlightenment shouldnt be viewed as an unobtainable goal, even if it is..
Vertigo Ethaniel: but the journey towards it can provide its own enlightening moments
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Vertigo Ethaniel: and what you make of that, is what makes your life unique
Gaya Ethaniel: very true Vertigo
Pema Pera: yes, Vertigo
Pema Pera: that is the perfect way to view it, within our world, in which we find ourselves
Pema Pera: which earlier, before you came, we called a relative perspective
Pema Pera: if we find a self and other, in relation to each other, relative
Pema Pera: then that is the best way to proceed
Pema Pera: and if everyone would do that, this world would be so much more beautiful . . . .
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Pema Pera: even if a few people would do that
Pema Pera: it would make a huge difference
Vertigo Ethaniel: each person is living their life according to their own path. that they are choosing one way and not another is only indicative of the teachings they have aquired.
Pema Pera: and of their own intuition, yes
Pema Pera: a combination, I think
Gaya Ethaniel: yes
Pema Pera: nature and nurture, both :)
Gaya Ethaniel: teachings can come from intuition also
Vertigo Ethaniel: i think most people would consider the path to inner peace a myth and a fairytale
Vertigo Ethaniel: which saddens me
Pema Pera: yes, that is very sad

It is the main problem of our time, that so many people don't even know what they are missing, that there is even the possibility of walking a meaningful path, any path! But once you see there is a path, there are two approaches. I started with the first one, linking it to what Vertigo said.

Pema Pera: and I think there are two solutions
Pema Pera: one is the relative path for which I have enormous respect, which you emphasized
Pema Pera: but there is another one too, which we are exploring in Play as Being here.
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Pema Pera: And the two are not in contradiction
Pema Pera: if anyone at any time loses the perspective that you described, Vertigo,
Pema Pera: then they have lost it all
Pema Pera: also PaB
Gaya Ethaniel: mm hmm
Pema Pera: it is extremely important to retain a sense of responsibility in the relative realm
Pema Pera: thank you for reminding us!
Gaya Ethaniel: guess it's easy to take mind off things so to say
Pema Pera: so given the choice of laughing about a path or journey, and trying to take it seriously, by all means take it
Pema Pera: but there may come a point where you begin to wonder where it will ultimately lead
Vertigo Ethaniel: perhaps
Gaya Ethaniel: ... i don't do the wondering bits Pema
Vertigo Ethaniel: but thats the fun of the journey isnt it?
Pema Pera: sure
Pema Pera: but sometimes things are not that much fun, though
Pema Pera: then what?
Gaya Ethaniel: you could say that!
Pema Pera: hope that walking on, things will get better?
Gaya Ethaniel: no no expectation
Gaya Ethaniel: leave what i lived behind and live in present fully and no wondering about what has not yet passed
Vertigo Ethaniel: things can take a different turn, but perhaps its meerly a new direction to take your life
Vertigo Ethaniel: and i dont think thats inherently bad
Pema Pera: that is a wise attitude, Vertigo
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Vertigo Ethaniel: however, it can be different to what you expected!
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Vertigo Ethaniel: and thats a different thing i guess :)

I then was about to talk about the second approach, but I was more interested in what Vertigo said at about the same time.

Pema Pera: the question is, is there an alternative to taking such an attitude -- ah
Pema Pera: can you say more?
Vertigo Ethaniel: for instance, having your heart set on a path in life, only to realise it may never happen
Vertigo Ethaniel: ive been in that situation many times already
Vertigo Ethaniel: but its just led me to my current life
Gaya Ethaniel: ah... we are back on failure here i think
Vertigo Ethaniel: and i dont think i w
Vertigo Ethaniel: would change things
Gaya Ethaniel: shame we don't have the log yet, i can give it to you as a note card Vertigo, would you like it?
Vertigo Ethaniel: well, its not nessicarily failure... yes please
Pema Pera: can you say more, Vertigo?
Vertigo Ethaniel: things can happen of which you have no control
Pema Pera: all the time :)
Vertigo Ethaniel: and things can happen of which you had total control
Vertigo Ethaniel: in either case, its the path your life took, and so must be cherished
Pema Pera: yes, certainly
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Pema Pera: may I give a metaphor, Vertigo? But I don't want to interrupt your description . . . it can wait too
Vertigo Ethaniel: oh please go ahead
Vertigo Ethaniel: ive spoken enough, hehe
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Pema Pera: oh no, I very much like what you said
Pema Pera: both the content and the concise way in which you summarized that content
Pema Pera: so thank you!
Pema Pera: Here is my metaphor
Vertigo Ethaniel: namaste

I then went back, trying to use a metaphore to illustrate the two approaches, to walking a path and jumping to the end of the path.

Pema Pera: I feel like an amateur film maker, pretty poor, just beginning, bumbling around
Pema Pera: I have made a few amateur movies, but really pretty shoddy
Pema Pera: and I am unhappy about their quality
Pema Pera: I am burdened by that unhappiness
Pema Pera: now there are two ways out
Pema Pera: one way is to become better and better
Pema Pera: learn to make movies that are really much better
Pema Pera: and that way I can feel better about all that
Vertigo Ethaniel: of course, yes
Pema Pera: the other way is to realize that the movies are only movies
Pema Pera: and in that way drop all the worrying
Pema Pera: Well, this metaphor is incomplete, and can be taken in many ways, of course
Gaya Ethaniel: yes, that realisation is a way of letting go of your desire to be 'better'
Vertigo Ethaniel: yes, i do understand, and youre correct
Pema Pera: so as long as a path is an attempt to improve in whatever subtle way, it is a round-about attempt, and there is a short-cut that is rigorously totally non-approvement-oriented
Pema Pera: is your path the latter?
Vertigo Ethaniel: im not sure
Vertigo Ethaniel: my path is my path, it just is
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Vertigo Ethaniel: im sure when looking back on things, i will be able to tell for sure, but right now it is about living in the moment and knowing that it is precious
Pema Pera: that's wonderful, Vertigo, I bow to that !
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Vertigo Ethaniel: namate to you both!
Vertigo Ethaniel: namaste :)
Pema Pera: I would love to ask more about what "the moment" can mean for you, but perhaps it is getting too late for that now
Pema Pera: Next time I would love to compare notes about "the moment"
Vertigo Ethaniel: i will be here from time to time
Gaya Ethaniel: Good night Pema
Pema Pera: whether that is "past, present, future minus past and minus future"
Pema Pera: or something else altogether
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Pema Pera: thank you, Gaya, you too!
Vertigo Ethaniel: thats a large topic :)
Pema Pera: yes ;)
Pema Pera: another night
Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks Vertigo. Was good to talk to you.
Vertigo Ethaniel: you too
Pema Pera: thank you for stopping by Vertigo!
Pema Pera: your timing was impeccable :)
Vertigo Ethaniel: i think i might go and enjoy nature
Vertigo Ethaniel: hehe
Pema Pera: hahaha
Pema Pera: and perhaps let nature enjoy you too, while you are at it :)
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Pema Pera: c u !
Vertigo Ethaniel: bye!