2008.07.31 07:00 - A Fish Sees No Water

Hey There, this is Cal and here's the log for the Thurs 7am session this week.  It seemed like there were some golden moments, I hope you get that sense.

A summer morning, starting slowly as I sat by myself for a while thinking about the Ithaca log I had just read:

Caledonia Heron: hi Stargate :)
Stargate Tone: Hello Caledonia
Stargate Tone: ...sorry I'm a little confused
Caledonia Heron: how do you mean?
Stargate Tone: came in a way to the wrong place...
Stargate Tone: meaning that I didn't mean to come here
Stargate Tone: but because I'm here 'again'.....
Stargate Tone: maybe it was ment....
Caledonia Heron: lol, ok
Caledonia Heron: where did you mean to be?
Stargate Tone: wouldn't it be the time for the meeting here ?
Caledonia Heron: it is, you are correct
Stargate Tone: ...it's normally been several persons here...in the meetings...
Caledonia Heron: yes, strangely vacant...maybe it was something I said :)
Stargate Tone: vacant...sorry my english; donno that word
Caledonia Heron: empty
Caledonia Heron: your English is fine :)
Stargate Tone: oh no....have so huge much lag
Caledonia Heron: I thought that might be so :)
Stargate Tone: but the rest I understood, and I'm sure that the emptyness
Stargate Tone: has nothing to do with your words
Caledonia Heron: lol, yes I was kidding :)
Stargate Tone: ok
Stargate Tone: 'got it' now :)****

So nice to have Gen pop in:) :

genesis Zhangsun is Online
Stargate Tone: Hello genesis
Caledonia Heron: my comment more reflects something on my mind - the fact that something I said was received in a different context than the spirit offered :)
Caledonia Heron: hey Gen :)
genesis Zhangsun: Hi Cal!
genesis Zhangsun: Hi Stargate
Stargate Tone: ...well...
Caledonia Heron: nice to see you Gen - it's been a while :)
genesis Zhangsun: Yeah I know!
Stargate Tone: like I said...I thought that I came to the wrong place....
Caledonia Heron: your session is a time conflict for me ...I have a meeting that hour I can't miss :)
Stargate Tone: but...you two can know better....
genesis Zhangsun: and the last conversation went down in PaB history ')
Caledonia Heron: you are in exactly the right place :)
genesis Zhangsun: oops ;)
Stargate Tone: Thank you Caledonia for your words
Caledonia Heron: lol, it was remarkable wasn't it Gen? really a pleasure
genesis Zhangsun: yeah I wish could come to your sessions more often!
Stargate Tone: Hello my friend Randall

Never saw Randall, and, here comes Avastu:) :

genesis Zhangsun: Hi Avastu
Caledonia Heron: hey there Avastu :)
Avastu Maruti: hello my friends
Caledonia Heron: we will find a way Gen.... like now :)
Caledonia Heron: I was joking a bit with Stargate on being alone here for a bit, wondering if it was something I said and trying to explain why
Caledonia Heron: sometimes we get to talking and maybe it sounds like we're being disagreeable or bossy, trying to instruct
Caledonia Heron: when really, it is partially an effort to share, partially to sort out our own understandings, partially to see if others understand
Caledonia Heron: maybe partly what others understand to be true for them

Stargate tells us about feeling a bit unwelcome:

Stargate Tone: ...and...well...why I thought that I'm on wrong place...cuz I - some while ago - received so much the words
Stargate Tone: 'do not come here; you speak too much'
Stargate Tone: so I have been off
genesis Zhangsun: really?
Stargate Tone: but been sad for that, cuz I got so many friends from the group
genesis Zhangsun: someone asked you to be quiet?
Stargate Tone: but I've needed to speak with them in IM ...
Stargate Tone: yes
Avastu Maruti: tell us who, Star, and I'll break out my "hammer"... :)
Caledonia Heron: funny you should use that word :)
Stargate Tone: ...well...my way of thinking is not always liked...cuz I speak 'too much' of the freedom...
Stargate Tone: and listening to one's own heart....
Stargate Tone: ....my 'ears' are hearing something that gives me huge much warmth
Stargate Tone: yet
Stargate Tone: for me
genesis Zhangsun: Well I am glad you listened to your heart and came back
Caledonia Heron: yeah, me too
Stargate Tone: nobody must ever be 'disturbed'
Stargate Tone: so ...that's why I was away for long....
genesis Zhangsun: lol we are all disturbed!

The intensity of PaB has racheted up a bit and it's showing a little along the edges:

Caledonia Heron: I have this sense there is so much going on in the group for individuals that some wires are getting crossed
genesis Zhangsun: I think that is why so many of us are here ;)
Stargate Tone: and I'll never tell for whom...cuz that's irrelevant
Stargate Tone: as I'm now 'taken back'
Caledonia Heron: lol, you never left
Stargate Tone: cuz I feel even more that I'm asked to come....
Caledonia Heron: yes, of course, very welcome :)
genesis Zhangsun: Stargate why do you come to PaB?
Stargate Tone: well...not exactly...yet; was not completely present either...
genesis Zhangsun: sorry that sounds a little harsh...what does it bring you?
Stargate Tone: oh
Stargate Tone: well....I have not learned yet much to think what something brings to me....
Stargate Tone: I've used just to lisen to my heart that where shall I go and what shall I do....
Stargate Tone: ...and indeed; I loved to take part to the meetings...untill...
Stargate Tone: but...well...hope that we can drop that case now
Caledonia Heron: sure, we can move on

Stargate shares what the meetings have given her:

Stargate Tone: what the meetings have given me; much friendship ....love...wonderful contacts with wonderful people
Stargate Tone: ...I have no expectations....
Stargate Tone: not in SL not in RL....
Caledonia Heron: I'm going to go back to what's on my mind...such that it is..... I have mental constructs of my relationships with people here and things are getting very personal and nerves are a bit frayed
Stargate Tone: oh dear...feel now a little bit confused that I've been 'the topic' so much *
Caledonia Heron: I have this sense things are perhaps being taken out of context
genesis Zhangsun: I agree Cal and Stargate I think your experience illustrates some of this "fraying"
genesis Zhangsun: when people seek so hard for the truth they can sometimes be agitated and frustrated
genesis Zhangsun: because they grasp for it
genesis Zhangsun: and cannot hold on to it
genesis Zhangsun: and sometimes take it out on others ;)
Avastu Maruti: brilliantly said!

Sometimes things are meant one way, heard another.  It can be a surprise to find this out. :

Caledonia Heron: I have heard things characterized in ways I know full well are not how they were meant and so I look to our vocabulary of how we discuss things here, the spirit in which we participate, that these are *ideas* - they are not personal statements about each other or for/against each other...just an attempt to express, to describe what is happening for each of us
Caledonia Heron: anyway, it's on my mind :)
genesis Zhangsun: yes very true Cal sometimes I find myself saying things, contributing a point of view I never realized I had and almost certain is not my own but felt it was important to contribute in that moment
genesis Zhangsun: regardless of whether it was "wrong"
genesis Zhangsun: or silly
genesis Zhangsun: and maybe sometimes offensive
Caledonia Heron: sure, whether intentional or not, if we are honest, authentic, with each other, it can only be an open expression - not really a judgement as such
Caledonia Heron: considering most of us have never met, it is remarkable we are so glued together :)
genesis Zhangsun: sometimes in creating a "net" to hold the "truth" we must pull in all different directions
genesis Zhangsun: it is the glue
genesis Zhangsun: or the safety net that Pema talks about
genesis Zhangsun: we pull from all different sides
genesis Zhangsun: and something sticks

Below I tried and failed to remember something about the corners of the universe:

Caledonia Heron: yes, like it is postulated about the universe :)
genesis Zhangsun: the sounds wonderful more on that Cal?
Caledonia Heron: I was thinking of a theory of the universe that offers the picture that the entirety has edges and that it is expanding by being pulled at the edges....I have likely remembered it incorrectly - I'm sure if there's an astrophysicist in the crowd we can get the real thing :)
Caledonia Heron: so, back to the net, we can use that to assist one another, if one is falling we hold the edges and the faller can bounce to the center and spring back up :)

Avastu decides to chime in, aiming for the heart of the sun - I broke the remaining conversation into small, flavorful canapes, each something to savor on it's own.  :

Avastu Maruti: If I may...
Caledonia Heron: sure,
Avastu Maruti: What is SEEING the universe? Where is this seen?
Caledonia Heron: holy smokes
Caledonia Heron: it's all made up
Caledonia Heron: something we make up

Where does the world, the picture, we see reside?:

Avastu Maruti: We think that we're "in the head" - looking out clear transparent "eyes"
Avastu Maruti: the eyes are not windows
Avastu Maruti: there is not a "me" "in here" and a "universe out there"
Avastu Maruti: the eyes take the reflection and pass the data along nerves to the brain
Avastu Maruti: along with other "data" received from the other senses
Avastu Maruti: the brain translates and creates a "picture"
Avastu Maruti: WHERE is that picture happening?
Avastu Maruti: That "picture" is Consciousness
Avastu Maruti: The "Universe" AND the "one who sees the universe" are both Consciousness
Stargate Tone: so sorry I was 'around' for a while...read your lines ...but not so well...
Avastu Maruti: like a dream...

Is everything make-believe, a concept?:

genesis Zhangsun: Avastu is it the relationship between the Universe and the one who sees which is consciousness?
Avastu Maruti: both of these appear IN Consciousness
Caledonia Heron: even that is made up
Avastu Maruti: yes!
Caledonia Heron: none of this is real
Avastu Maruti: even "consciousness" is only a concept appearing in THIS!

If everything is made up, are our relationships real?:

genesis Zhangsun: is the relationship real, the appreciation of one another, the love which is our true nature and true nature of all things?
Caledonia Heron: so the question, if it's not real, what is it? it is likely unanswerable
Avastu Maruti: yes, no answer, as Genesis said, the moment you try to grasp truth, you fail
Avastu Maruti: can you get out of this "picture"?
Caledonia Heron: sure, cease
Avastu Maruti: because any answer can only come within the "picture"

Is love inside and outside the picture?:

genesis Zhangsun: yes so even the concept of love is within this picture?
Caledonia Heron: yes Gen, I think so
Avastu Maruti: yes! Yet Love IS
Stargate Tone: yes
Avastu Maruti: Love is the unconditional acceptance of all that arises
Stargate Tone: YES
Stargate Tone: YES
Avastu Maruti: and that is already happening!
genesis Zhangsun: so it is not a thing but a process?
Avastu Maruti: things or processes are concepts appearing IN this

We may cover our "IS-Ness":

Avastu Maruti: yet this nameless THIS!, this IS-Ness, is what you are, however undefinable
Caledonia Heron: what a lot we package around our IS-Ness :)
Avastu Maruti: yes!
genesis Zhangsun: so much to drop
genesis Zhangsun: to let go of
Caledonia Heron: some small packages, some rolling, growing snowballs
Caledonia Heron: each of us packaging our IS-Ness differently
Avastu Maruti: Being, being itself
Caledonia Heron: ha!, if you finally remove the whole package, maybe there's nothing there

Can anything be outside mental translation?:

Avastu Maruti: what IS there, outside of mental translation?
genesis Zhangsun: energy?
Avastu Maruti: even this "person" we've taken ourselves to be
Caledonia Heron: the fish in water can't see the water
Avastu Maruti: yes!
Avastu Maruti: brilliant!
Caledonia Heron: can the fish see fire?
Avastu Maruti: does the question of "fire" arise to fish?
Caledonia Heron: would the fish know it to be a fire?
Avastu Maruti: "fire" arises in this "human experience" - the mind is the only tool we have
Caledonia Heron: fire can be anything, it is "not water"
Avastu Maruti: yet anything that appears is never outside of this "picture" in Consciousness
Avastu Maruti: only the mind creates the distinction between "fire" and "water"
Caledonia Heron: so even "other" is a construct
Avastu Maruti: yes!
Caledonia Heron: :)

Can we know "outside" our minds?  "Know" outside our constructs?:

Avastu Maruti: what isn't a construct of mind?
Caledonia Heron: we can postulate with our "minds" that there is "other" while not really knowing it outside our "minds"
genesis Zhangsun: so is this perhaps why our observation of something changes - it's because there really is no subject object
genesis Zhangsun: such as presented by the quantum enigma
Caledonia Heron: it is kind of a test for reality
Avastu Maruti: reality is whatever THIS is - yet mind creates a lot of stories on top of that

High revs, all cylinders firing and then something funny happened:

Caledonia Heron: hi there ASS :)
ASS Baxton: HI!
Caledonia Heron: a funny name that
ASS Baxton: really?
ASS Baxton: why?
Stargate Tone: Hi ASS
ASS Baxton: HI!
genesis Zhangsun: Hey ASS
Caledonia Heron: come on dude, you're pulling my chain right?
genesis Zhangsun: lol
Caledonia Heron: we're having a very interesting discussion - you are free to join us :)
ASS Baxton: what?

Back in the starship, warp drive....Do the constructs, the stories, apply to everything?:

Caledonia Heron: yes, Avastu, lots of stories, some more complicated than others :)
Avastu Maruti: yes
genesis Zhangsun: so science and religion these are all stories?
Caledonia Heron: lots of back and forth to complicate them also :)
ASS Baxton: YES!
Caledonia Heron: tread lightly....science is a story that through experimentation can be replicated
Caledonia Heron: demonstrated
Avastu Maruti: anything perceivable or conceivable can only appear in this picture of Consciousness
Avastu Maruti: even the idea of "me"

What can be demonstrated outside the picture?  This really hits if for me so I'll repeat....what can be demonstrated outside the picture?:

genesis Zhangsun: but what can be demonstrated outside of this picture?
Avastu Maruti: you tell me
Caledonia Heron: HA! you've put your finger on it Gen!
genesis Zhangsun: Cal?
Caledonia Heron: the $64K question
genesis Zhangsun: :)
genesis Zhangsun: so then isn't science a story too then?
Avastu Maruti: we're left with nothing to grasp, nothing to hold, nowhere to go
Caledonia Heron: sure, another story.... much different approach
genesis Zhangsun: is it better?
genesis Zhangsun: more accurate
Caledonia Heron: indifferent
genesis Zhangsun: according to this "picture" view it is not
Caledonia Heron: it is not better, worse, more accurate, .... rather a perspective, and approach, a structured construct in and of itself, imo

ASS hit the eject button:

ASS Baxton: sorry! I want to leave! BYE! everyone!
Caledonia Heron: bye ASS
genesis Zhangsun: bye Ass!
Caledonia Heron: lol
genesis Zhangsun: thanks for joining
Caledonia Heron: hilarious name, jeez

Can you test for "IT"?:

genesis Zhangsun: all human made, human constructed and therefore human limited?
Caledonia Heron: pretty much
Avastu Maruti: IN WHAT does this human experience arise?
Avastu Maruti: What KNOWS it?
Caledonia Heron: and how do we test for it?
Avastu Maruti: no test necessary - you ARE!
Avastu Maruti: that is undeniable
Caledonia Heron: not necessary yet interesting to consider

Does "knowing" change?:

Avastu Maruti: but WHAT you are is the question
Avastu Maruti: what is knowing this experience?
Avastu Maruti: does THAT change? does THAT require testing?
Avastu Maruti: that knowing is always there
Caledonia Heron: the knowingness of it changes, and no, nothing requires testing
Avastu Maruti: does the knowing really change?
Avastu Maruti: or do "things" change within it?
Caledonia Heron: in the construct you have provided, no it does not change... however our perceptions of our knowingness change

What should we do with "knowing"? :

Avastu Maruti: "my knowingness" is itself another identification
Caledonia Heron: yes
Caledonia Heron: all is parsed, identified
Avastu Maruti: no one possesses knowing - the "one" who could possess arises IN this present activity of knowing
Avastu Maruti: brb
Caledonia Heron: hmmm, what to do with this knowing it's all nothing?
Caledonia Heron: minds want to do stuff :)
genesis Zhangsun: we celebrate it

So we celebrate, we celebrate by dancing! :

Caledonia Heron: yippee!!
genesis Zhangsun: whoohoo!
Caledonia Heron: celebrating now :)
genesis Zhangsun: ??????·????  ?

Time to go:

Avastu Maruti: sorry my friends - must go for now... :)
Caledonia Heron: I was a little crossways there for a while ...thanks for the talk :)
Stargate Tone: was wanderfull to meet *
Caledonia Heron: bye Avastu :)
genesis Zhangsun: Bye Avastu
Avastu Maruti: good bye my friends
Stargate Tone: stargate
genesis Zhangsun: yes wonderful
Caledonia Heron: yes Stargate, thanks for coming :)
Caledonia Heron: bye, Gen - really nice to see you :)
genesis Zhangsun: Bye everyone!
genesis Zhangsun: Nice to see you too Cal!
genesis Zhangsun: see you on Monday!
Stargate Tone: so sad that my hearts were again stolen by the tp
genesis Zhangsun: in RL
Caledonia Heron: yes!!
Caledonia Heron: it will be fun!
genesis Zhangsun: yes wonderful!
genesis Zhangsun: Bye everyone!
Caledonia Heron: see you :)