2009.01.04 13:00 - Dimensions, doubts and experience

The guardian for this meeting was Maxine Walden.  The comments are hers

When I got to the pavilion Scathach was already there.  We are almost immediately joined by Riddle and I ask how the New Year has been for each of us

Maxine Walden: hi, Scath
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Maxine
Maxine Walden: how are you?
Scathach Rhiadra: fine, and you?
Maxine Walden: fine, just back from a couple of days  
away...letting the New Year get under way
Riddle Sideways: Hi Everybody
Maxine Walden: hi, Riddle
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Riddle
Maxine Walden: How is the New Year treating each of you so far?
Riddle Sideways: very relaxing
Maxine Walden: nice!
Riddle Sideways: several parties
Scathach Rhiadra: yes, it has been very relaxing, but back to  
work tomorrow
Maxine Walden: ah, yes, seems work may be beckoning for many  
of us...seems like New Year offering hope for many...
Riddle Sideways: I've worked the last couple weeks but nobody  
else there
Riddle Sideways: few crisis' and little choas
Maxine Walden: oh, Riddle? How's that? All taking time off  
but you?
Riddle Sideways: yep
Riddle Sideways: I am the new kid
Riddle Sideways: without vacation time
Scathach Rhiadra: ah :)
Maxine Walden: ah, so holding the fort
Riddle Sideways: funny, I have the support phone on a product  
I don;t know anything about
Maxine Walden: that must be an interesting position to be in...
Scathach Rhiadra: I 've been in that position a few times:)
Riddle Sideways: that is a use of the word interesting that I  
don't understand
Scathach Rhiadra: the ancient Chinese curse 'interesting'?
Riddle Sideways: ah so

I apoligize for using an ambiguous word which did not acknowledge the situation Riddle has been describing

Maxine Walden: perhaps, Riddle, it is a mis-use of the word  
'interesting'; ...
Riddle Sideways: bad

And then we are on to the phenomological workshop experiments involving change in perspective toward/from an object (a common spoon) which we refer to as 'spoons'.  It is soon apparent that nearly all of us are struggling with the changes of perspective, nearly all except Riddle.  In the middle of this Tarmel joins us.

Riddle Sideways: but, enough about me... how about those  
spoons?
Scathach Rhiadra: ha:)
Riddle Sideways: I've been reading what I have been missing
Riddle Sideways: Hi Tarmel
Maxine Walden: and I have been away the past few days, but  
found that I was having a difficult time not being the subject...what  
about you?
Maxine Walden: hi, Tarmel
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Tarmel:)
Tarmel Udimo: hi everyone :-)
Maxine Walden: Tarmel,
Riddle Sideways: that is the problem... when YOU are always  
the subject
Maxine Walden: we have just been beginning to talk about the  
'spoons' experiements
Tarmel Udimo: okay
Scathach Rhiadra: yes it is very difficult to change your  
view without changing your position
Tarmel Udimo: can you say more
Scathach Rhiadra: to still remain in position in your  
awareness but take the view from outside yourself, so to speak
Tarmel Udimo: yes I find it difficult too
Maxine Walden: I found myself so aware of the focus of the  
observer, and wondered if some of the difficulty had to do with an  
almost hardwired ancestral quality of being the predator, the subject  
viewing the object, as it were

As Riddle seemed to have not difficulty in this exercise we ask more about his experience

Riddle Sideways: I did not find it hard at all, so I think I  
have missed something of the instructions
Scathach Rhiadra: looking back at my two reports, I don't  
think there was much difference in my experience between them
Maxine Walden: oh, Riddle, please tell us your experience
Tarmel Udimo: yes
Scathach Rhiadra: please do:)
Riddle Sideways: for years and years I have been doing  
"outside" of myself exercises
Riddle Sideways: or being in me, but feeling behind/out the  
back
Riddle Sideways: being multiple people, objects, space
Riddle Sideways: that one spoon was ... well it seemed too easy
Riddle Sideways: I do confess that the spoon did not try to  
bend me :)

We may get a little distracted in here, but that may also be due to the intriguing nature of the out of self practices Riddle is trying to describe to us

Tarmel Udimo: is that part of timeline theory?
Tarmel Udimo: I think its time line pratice I meant to say
Maxine Walden: not sure what timeline theory is, Tarmel
Maxine Walden: or time line practice?
Tarmel Udimo: a friend was exploring a technique where by you  
discover which time line you're on
Riddle Sideways: Tarmel, last weeks PaB wiki and Kiri  
sessions were talking about spoon exercises
Riddle Sideways: ooo interesting
Riddle Sideways: or which timeline others are on
Scathach Rhiadra: that sounds interesting
Maxine Walden: I need a little more explanation about  
timelines in this context...
Tarmel Udimo: yes I know about spoon except it sounded like a  
time line exercise...
Tarmel Udimo: okay its all a bit vague for me and I hadn't  
meant to take us away from talking about riddles experience

Riddle is happy to have the focus go elsewhere, but we insist coming back to his experience

Riddle Sideways: no no take away
Tarmel Udimo: but first tell us more about what you're doing
Maxine Walden: right, maybe we should stay with Riddle's  
experience and perhaps get to time lines as well
Tarmel Udimo: Riddle?
Riddle Sideways: darn, back to me
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Tarmel Udimo: yep

And so he tells us more detail but seems to also be grappling with staying in one's body, having the spoon look at one

Riddle Sideways: seems I have always tried to see things from  
other points of view
Riddle Sideways: when I read about spoon exercises yesterday
Riddle Sideways: I already had a spoon (albeit a little dirty)  
there on the table
Riddle Sideways: it was easy to become the spoon
Riddle Sideways: looking out atthe environment
Riddle Sideways: a bunch harder for the spoon to look at me
Riddle Sideways: spoon didn't care much about me
Maxine Walden: right, the spoon looking at you, that is what  
is so hard for me...because it feels I have to impute some 'seeing'  
into the spoon, even though I have heard Pema say otherwise...
Maxine Walden: is that what others are struggling with?
Riddle Sideways: brb
Tarmel Udimo: well I seemed to have slipped into being  
both... :-)
Riddle Sideways: sorry, phone call
Riddle Sideways: spoon seeing was okay

Scathach brings up the notion of the subjects and objects being only perceptions

Scathach Rhiadra: I seem to have trouble seeing both the  
spoon and 'me' as anything but perceptions

Crusty joins us, sporting a jolly Santa hat and an elegant cape; as he is coming in mid-paragraph we make sure he is aware of what we are calling the 'spoons' 

Maxine Walden: hi, Crusty
Riddle Sideways: spoon directed at silly body was hard
Riddle Sideways: Hi Crusty
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Crusty
Tarmel Udimo: hi royal juggler
Tarmel Udimo: smiles
Riddle Sideways: nice cape
Tarmel Udimo: alchemist
Crusty Goldshark: hi guys
Maxine Walden: Crusty, we are talking about the the  
experiements some of us are doing having to do with spoons, are you  
familiar with those?
Riddle Sideways: yes, we is all perceptions
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Tarmel Udimo: :-)
Crusty Goldshark: yes I know of spoons

Scatchach continues with her notion re perceptions

Scathach Rhiadra: exactly, so I'm thinking one perception  
trying to look at another perception
Maxine Walden: OK, just wanting to make sure..
Riddle Sideways: to know we are perceptions is a big  
important step
Tarmel Udimo: I think its just being looked at in its  
simplest variation , No?
Scathach Rhiadra: can't help feeling the important bit is in  
the perceiving or awareness
Riddle Sideways: no trouble thinking of my percepted main av  
seeing the perception av labeled Tarmel
Scathach Rhiadra: not the perceiver or object

And then it seems that our different perceptions may be introducing doubt:

Tarmel Udimo: hummm maybe I am missing something... :)
Riddle Sideways: perceiving perceptions... trickey wording
Scathach Rhiadra: or maybe I am:))
Tarmel Udimo: grins
Maxine Walden: or maybe there are different ways to view the  
experiment and all of these vertices pertain
Tarmel Udimo: yes I think so
Riddle Sideways: yes, back to the beginning, where I thought  
that I had missed something in the instructions

As we all seemed to be struggling in our own way It seemed meaningful to make the following observation:

Maxine Walden: isn't it interesting that when something seems  
easy and someone else is struggling we feel we may have missed  
something, that it should be as difficult for us as them?
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Riddle Sideways: :)
Tarmel Udimo: that's a point yes..
Riddle Sideways: we spend so much time the other way around
Riddle Sideways: that it is awkward being the easy one
Maxine Walden: yes, exactly, Riddle, we are so un-used to  
that position
Scathach Rhiadra: like 'no pain no gain'
Riddle Sideways: so if we did not pain...
Riddle Sideways: we question the gains
Maxine Walden: yes, doubt seems to come in there, doubting  
things that come easily

So having mentioned how hampered we can be by doubt, Tarmel mentions the other side of the coin interspersed by Riddle's mention of his many years seeking higher dimensions and the two see to have a braided conversation for a bit, playing with different connotations about the same word, 'beam'

Tarmel Udimo: yes and yet there are whole ways of being  
linked to phrases like 'going with the flow'
Riddle Sideways: well, 40 years of trying to image the 4th or  
nth dimensional projections has been some work
Tarmel Udimo: and the line of least resistance
Riddle Sideways: if the line/flow is in the right direction
Tarmel Udimo: and how's your brain now riddle :-)
Riddle Sideways: is it easy to get where you should
Riddle Sideways: thanks for asking, but my mind is a mess
Tarmel Udimo: yes it feels great when I am on "the beam" I  
call it
Tarmel Udimo: but when not on it wow talk about making one's  
life a struggle
Riddle Sideways: light or balence beam?
Tarmel Udimo: both ;)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Riddle Sideways: that would be tooooo straight and narrow
Tarmel Udimo: yes except there's nothing like 'ease"

It felt important to ask Riddle more specifically about his pursuit of the 4th dimension

Maxine Walden: you have been spending a lot of time imagining  
the 4th dimension, Riddle?
Riddle Sideways: favorite subject
Tarmel Udimo: just my question
Maxine Walden: I would be interested in hearing more, Riddle,  
about your experience
Riddle Sideways: we/I don't have enough time

And he and Tarmel continue 

Tarmel Udimo: have you read guirjieef?
Tarmel Udimo: spelling not sure
Riddle Sideways: don't think so
Tarmel Udimo: will find link for you - in the mean time tell  
us why you look at the 4th dimension?
Riddle Sideways: just googled lots of links
Riddle Sideways: not sure how it started
Riddle Sideways: there was this geometry class in high school
Riddle Sideways: made a big deal about 2 dimensions of sheets  
of paper
Riddle Sideways: and 3 dimentional solids
Riddle Sideways: but didn't tell me about more dimentions
Riddle Sideways: made me go look it up
Riddle Sideways: flatland book was written ... half a century ago

Crusty has to leave

Crusty Goldshark: cu later
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Crusty
Maxine Walden: bye Crusty
Riddle Sideways: ok, bye Crusty

And just as he does Riddle's doubt seems to seep in and we offer reassurance

Riddle Sideways: happens that way.
Riddle Sideways: I start taking over chat
Riddle Sideways: and people leave :)
Scathach Rhiadra: :))
Tarmel Udimo: I will need to give link at a later date as i  
am looking for a certain book that I think you will find interesting...
Maxine Walden: but we are here, really interested, Riddle
Riddle Sideways: thanks
Tarmel Udimo: yes I am

Riddle mentions his struggle and the current resolution

Riddle Sideways: then there was a huge debate about 4th  
dimension being time not spacial
Riddle Sideways: I wrestled with that for years
Riddle Sideways: now peacefully think both are higher  
dimensions

While Riddle mentions the many dimensions from a physics position, Tarmel and then I bring up other aspects such as 'being' and 'meaning'

Tarmel Udimo: well "being" is multidimensional
Riddle Sideways: string theory helps by saying that you need  
7-10 dimensions to understand it
Tarmel Udimo: and I think part of our problem is that it is  
experiencial and can't be explained...
Riddle Sideways: yes, Being is wherever we take it
Riddle Sideways: or it takes us
Riddle Sideways: both and neither
Riddle Sideways: we find it so hard to explain a 'spoon' to  
each other
Maxine Walden: and then there is the dimension of  
meaning...which may be unique for each of us
Riddle Sideways: how should we explain Being
Tarmel Udimo: yes meaning...
Maxine Walden: think you were saying that Tarmel, our  
experience is difficult to explain to each other

And we realize again the possible paradox involving our unity in 'being' and yet the uniqueness of each of our own experience

Riddle Sideways: we each "live"in our own "space"
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Riddle Sideways: we define it and try to share with you, but...
Riddle Sideways: sharing/trading meaning is tough
Scathach Rhiadra: noone can see through another's eyes
Tarmel Udimo: well yes that it is a feeling state and we can  
try to explain it but ...
Tarmel Udimo: but I wander if we are all experiencing being  
simultaneously would be seeing that in each other?
Tarmel Udimo: wonder
Maxine Walden: interesting to ponder
Riddle Sideways: /methinks yes and no
Tarmel Udimo: pema talks about seeing as a way to understanding
Tarmel Udimo: but this word is also about experiencing
Riddle Sideways: yes, substitute any of several words

Riddle suggests possibly the varying tensions inherent in different perspectives, different aspects of being

Riddle Sideways: somteimes it is easier to understand as a  
spoon understands
Tarmel Udimo: hehehe
Riddle Sideways: then to see as spoon sees
Riddle Sideways: and/or experience as spoon experiences
Riddle Sideways: the fun play is sometimes involving the words  
experimented with, sometimes the acts of thinking, and sometimes the role reversals
Maxine Walden: I want to get your thought clearly, Riddle,  
could you just say your last thought again: words and thinking  
roles...reversals

Riddle summarizes some of the frustrations as well as the pleasures of these conversations, and the reader may also be able to experience some of the frustration in that Riddle's complex thought is not fully expressed, perhaps not fully expressible

Riddle Sideways wishes thoughts were clearer, lets see/ 
understand/experience
Riddle Sideways: we have 2 very common threads here
Riddle Sideways: words about the words we are using
Riddle Sideways: those chats are fun
Riddle Sideways: we have other chats about what we are ....
Riddle Sideways: are, thinking, being, see, experience
Riddle Sideways: then come here couple times a week
Riddle Sideways: to chat and compare
Riddle Sideways: SL is failing me
Tarmel Udimo: are you a scientist too riddle
Riddle Sideways: like to think of self as both artist and  
scientist

Here I feel once again that time is too short, even with our having taken an hour so far, so I begin my goodbyes. 

Maxine Walden: yes, thank you. I have really enjoyed this  
conversation and wish I could continue, but I have another meeting to  
go to. And this is my day to take the chatlog. If after I go there are  
other thoughts, if someone could email them to me I will add them to  
the wiki.
Scathach Rhiadra: night Maxine
Riddle Sideways: bye Maxine
Tarmel Udimo: bye maxine - its always good to have you here