2009.01.22 07:00 - Relativism

Relativism, and I don't mean your Uncle Harry.  Moral relativism ... you make the call.  - CH

Caledonia Heron: hi Gaya :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Cal :)
Caledonia Heron: how are you?
Gaya Ethaniel: Well thank you :) Yourself?
Caledonia Heron: I'm well thanks :)
Caledonia Heron: what's new in 9sec world?
Gaya Ethaniel: I haven't done it for about 2 weeks and wondering what's going on
Gaya Ethaniel: I'm ok not doing it btw
Caledonia Heron: haven't done meditation or the meetings?
Caledonia Heron: seems fine to take a break :)
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Gaya Ethaniel: I'm sure I will start soon again

  

Caledonia Heron: hi Adams :)
Adams Rubble: Good Morning Cal :)
Caledonia Heron: cute 'do :)
Adams Rubble: Good afternoon Gaya :)
Adams Rubble: :)
Caledonia Heron: Gaya was just mentioning she is on a break from 9sec stuff ... what's new with you Adams?
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Adams :)
Adams Rubble: Hmmm. I am mighty busy these days so maybe I am too. I'm not sure :)
Adams Rubble: I haven;t been writing much
Caledonia Heron: hmmm, I think I am in a nearby place Adams :)
Adams Rubble: There seems to be too much going on and we just sort of brush everything a little bit
Adams Rubble: Otherwise it flies by'
Caledonia Heron: yes, the first month is almost gone :)
Adams Rubble: :)
Caledonia Heron: I am looking for signs of spring :)
Adams Rubble: Yes, Spring was in my brain this morning as I rode in (It was a balmy 19 degrees this morning). hehe
Caledonia Heron: it was 78 here yesterday .... take heart :)
Adams Rubble: oh my
Caledonia Heron: I went outside walking barefoot :)
Adams Rubble: :)
Adams Rubble: Wouldn't want to do that here
Adams Rubble: by the third step you would be frozen to the ground
Caledonia Heron: lol
Gaya Ethaniel: /afk
Gaya Ethaniel: [apologies]
Adams Rubble: no apologies needed Gaya :)
Caledonia Heron: yesterday there was a for sale sign on the ranch across the street from me .... it kind of ripples my personal "fabric"
Adams Rubble: Do you mean what happens now?
Caledonia Heron: mmm like it disturbs the equilibrium somehow :)
Adams Rubble: yes
Adams Rubble: Of course there are so many houses around me that it is happening all the time but I understand the sentiment
Adams Rubble: The wider space becomes personal somehow
Caledonia Heron: yes. I think the space will remain the same (hoping)..... :)
Adams Rubble: Here it would become 450 new houses :p
Caledonia Heron: that is happening like crazy around here.... getting on my nerves :)
Adams Rubble: ah there too
Caledonia Heron: yep
Adams Rubble: One would have thought the downturn would have given us a break from that
Adams Rubble: Wherever it happens in the "rural" areas around that, the roadways become speedways
Adams Rubble: around here that is
Caledonia Heron: yeah, it's busier for sure
Gaya Ethaniel: back
Adams Rubble: wb Gaya :)
Caledonia Heron: I am looking at strategic landscaping :)
Caledonia Heron: :)
Adams Rubble: Yes trees and mounds do wonders :)
Caledonia Heron: berm planting :)

  

Caledonia Heron: where can we go with this discussion today as we all seem to be in a lull?
Gaya Ethaniel: ty :)
Adams Rubble looks blank
Caledonia Heron: lol
Caledonia Heron: uhhhhh
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Adams Rubble: :)
Caledonia Heron: wonder why we are taking a break?
Caledonia Heron: 1. busy
Adams Rubble: yep
Caledonia Heron: 2. still busy
Caledonia Heron: :)
Adams Rubble: yep
Adams Rubble: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Caledonia Heron: I know some people say that the 9sec/variations help a lot when they are busy or stressed
Adams Rubble: I am here in a different personality that has been pretty much chained up in the basement the past few days :)
Caledonia Heron: sounds kinky
Adams Rubble: Hello Fael :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Fael :)
Adams Rubble: uh oh Cal
Caledonia Heron: hey Fael :)
Fael Illyar: Hi Adams, Cal, Gaya :)
Caledonia Heron: feeling better Fael?
Caledonia Heron: Fael is looking for water before she dries up :)
Fael Illyar smiles.
Fael Illyar: So, did I interrupt something?
Fael Illyar likes Adams's hair.
Gaya Ethaniel: Fael you said you wanted to ask PaB members about logs?
Caledonia Heron: no, not really .... we are wondering why we're all taking a break from pab
Fael Illyar: It seems to be in the air :)
Adams Rubble came to PaB this morning :)
Caledonia Heron: really?
Caledonia Heron: yes, me too :)
Adams Rubble: :)

  

Fael Illyar: I've been participating rather little recently.
Caledonia Heron: you know what I mean silly Adams :)
Fael Illyar: but, yes, I wanted to talk about autologger a bit :)
Fael Illyar: more precisely, giving out the logs
Caledonia Heron: ?
Fael Illyar: it needs some limits
Adams Rubble: It would have been useful to have access to the logs
Fael Illyar: of course, only guardians.
Adams Rubble: especially the scribes
Fael Illyar: and preferably only guardians who were present
Fael Illyar: and scribes are a special case too...
Caledonia Heron: yes, agree with distribution to present guardians and scribes
Fael Illyar: I have practically two options for making this work. web interface or then through this autorecorder thing here in the middle of this pool.
Adams Rubble: Which is easier?
Fael Illyar: but web interface would take more work and I'd also need to make a user account system
Fael Illyar: more usernames and passwords to remember :P
Adams Rubble: so poolside then :)
Fael Illyar: although... perhaps possible to make it so that you can come here, get a one time password from the recorder here and then use it to view a list of logs where you were present
Fael Illyar: that wouldn't be that much work.
Adams Rubble doesn;t see the need for limiting to those present. The logs are public
Fael Illyar: these are raw logs.
Caledonia Heron: there is sensitive data sometimes
Fael Illyar: the public ones go through the guardian
Fael Illyar: who will remove the parts that are not for public.
Adams Rubble: Well we all are responsible guardians aren;t wee?
Adams Rubble: we
Fael Illyar: that part cannot be automated.
Fael Illyar: I'm pretty sure there are situations where people say things they don't want anyone but those who were present to see.
Adams Rubble: Some of the guardians are not posting for days and days
Caledonia Heron: agreed Adams
Fael Illyar: Adams, part of that is that it's a lot of work for them to clean up the logs.
Fael Illyar: being able to get a readily formatted version from the autologger would make it less of a problem
Adams Rubble thinks the scribe system is not going to work if there is not a way to get to the logs very soon
Fael Illyar: for the moment, until the system works, I'll volunteer to give links to the logs to those who need them.
Fael Illyar: on request
Adams Rubble: That would help
Fael Illyar: the system is ready for that
Caledonia Heron: sounds reasonable
Fael Illyar: I'll send an email about it to the mailing list.
Adams Rubble: Thanks fael :)
Caledonia Heron: yes, thank you.

  

Adams Rubble: Going back to whatever break we may be taking from PaB. I was only have kidding
Adams Rubble: half kidding
Gaya Ethaniel: Thank you Fael
Fael Illyar: One thing that'd be very easy to implement, though, would be to make the autologger give out a link to the log when someone closes the logging.
Adams Rubble: It is a nice break for me to be here in your company this morning
Caledonia Heron: I know what you mean Adams, it's always lurking, .... :)
Fael Illyar: as in, clicks the autologger, and then clicks the stop button.
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Adams Rubble: That might help those who are having technical issues fael
Fael Illyar: or alternatively, I could make a button for claiming the log and then having autologger send the link to the log with IMs once the recording stops
Fael Illyar: these both should be easy enough to implement right now, although not replaceable on the fly.
Adams Rubble: can it be programmed to send the link to the scribe for that period?
Fael Illyar: it could, someone will have to update a notecard containing the scribe list though to keep it going to the right person if there are changes.
Adams Rubble wonders what Cal is going to do with this session
Adams Rubble: :)
Fael Illyar: at the moment, it looks like only Wol will be able to touch the notecards this thing contains
Adams Rubble: ah
Fael Illyar: for some reason they're no transfer
Adams Rubble: The chief magician
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Caledonia Heron: ? Adams?
Gaya Ethaniel: Chained self?
Adams Rubble looks around
Adams Rubble: who me?
Caledonia Heron: ??Adams Rubble wonders what Cal is going to do with this session?? --- what do you mean Adams?
Fael Illyar: but I'll implement the functionality that pressing the stop button will give the presser the link to the log
Adams Rubble: ah
Gaya Ethaniel: I just remember something you said above Adadms [scrolls back]
Fael Illyar: only helps those who stay to the end of their session though
Adams Rubble may be talking too much
Gaya Ethaniel: May I say Fael, implement one option and see how that works out?
Gaya Ethaniel: Perhaps talking to Wol about different options would be good too
Fael Illyar: well, it can work if the last one present presses the stop and then relays the link to the guardian.
Adams Rubble: Please let that one pass unnoticed Cal :)

  

Fael Illyar: Hi Samuel :)
Samuel Okelly: hello every1 :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Samuel
Adams Rubble: Hello Samuel
Caledonia Heron: sure
Caledonia Heron: hi Samuel
Caledonia Heron: have you been here before Samuel?
Samuel Okelly: yes, ive been here a couple times before
Caledonia Heron: ok, making sure you know the purpose and that we record :)
Samuel Okelly: sure :) i need to watch my "Ps & Qs" ;-)
Fael Illyar: Samuel had an interesting question about the moral value of compassion. Did someone give you a satisfactory answer yet?
Samuel Okelly: not really fael... the jury is still out on that one
Fael Illyar: This is just my interpretation but I see morals as an attempt to codify compassion.
Samuel Okelly: the question i keep returning to is where do morals originate?
Caledonia Heron: at the end of stories :)
Samuel Okelly: :)

  

Samuel Okelly: what is it that gives "compassion" its moral value?
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Adams Rubble: Why does compassion have to have a moral value?
Fael Illyar: my answer would be, it doesn't have any. Instead, morals are an attempt to make rules to make people act in a seemingly compassionate way
Caledonia Heron: compassion is what it is, perhaps the moral is a guidepost to help remind people to honor it
Adams Rubble: One can't MAKE people act compassionately
Adams Rubble: it comes from within
Fael Illyar: yet, it's entirely possible to follow morals and be entirely uncompassionate.
Adams Rubble: exactly
Samuel Okelly: the point is not if compassion is moral not but rather why is anything considered "moral"?
Adams Rubble: St.Paul teaches that
Adams Rubble: teaches it is possible to follow morals and not be compassionate that is
Adams Rubble thinks morals are bad for morale
Caledonia Heron: I was playing with those 2 words too :)
Adams Rubble: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)

  

Samuel Okelly: all joking apart i think you make a good point... :)
Samuel Okelly: morals may well be considered "bad" for morale as i would posit that it is our "conscience" that they appeal to
Caledonia Heron: morals are a construct, perhaps invoked by religious forces long ago to corral the wayward :)
Gaya Ethaniel laughs @ wayward
Adams Rubble: we each have our own moral system that overrides anything decitated from outside
Fael Illyar: to someone who is truly compassionate, morals are meaningless.
Adams Rubble: dictated that is
Adams Rubble not sure what decitated means
Caledonia Heron: again, compassion is just there, being compassion .... other stuff is window dressing imo
Samuel Okelly: so morals are entirely a personal thing for you admas?
Fael Illyar: admas?
Adams Rubble: yes Samuel
Fael Illyar not familiar with the word.
Samuel Okelly: and justice?
Adams Rubble tries out Admas Rubble
Fael Illyar: ah
Adams Rubble: Woooo. Justice is a loaded word
Caledonia Heron: decitated is when 10 people dictate something :)
Adams Rubble: :)
Adams Rubble: hehe
Gaya Ethaniel laughs @ AR being tried out

  

Samuel Okelly: if the is no independant moral sense, on what basis do we form our laws and legislation?
Adams Rubble shrugs
Samuel Okelly: exactly ;-)
Adams Rubble: One can have a justice system based only on taboos
Fael Illyar: There is no way to make laws that'd work right in every situation.
Fael Illyar: (if you can even agree on what is "right")
Samuel Okelly: why do you say that fael?
Fael Illyar: because, if you made laws that'd work right always, they'd be so complex that no-one would have the time to learn them :)
Adams Rubble: :)
Samuel Okelly: that assumes an awfull lot to me...and that implies because something hasnt been done it can not be done
Fael Illyar: I'm not saying it can't be done.
Fael Illyar: I'm saying it can but is impractical
Adams Rubble: Not sure Samuel. It may only recognize the human element
Fael Illyar: costs outweigh the benefits
Samuel Okelly: "
[7:59] Fael Illyar: There is no way to make laws that'd work right in every situation."
Adams Rubble: None of us can assume everything about anyone else
Fael Illyar: although, in practise, no-one has the time to make laws that complex either.
Caledonia Heron: none of us should assume anything about anyone :)
Samuel Okelly: why not?
Adams Rubble: :)
Samuel Okelly: why should we not assume?
Adams Rubble: Because your "self" only sees my "self" Samuel
Fael Illyar: assumption as such is fine to me. As long as it can be dropped the moment it's clear it isn't so.
Samuel Okelly: my question is not a frivolous one though when considering moiral worth and value
Caledonia Heron: to survive we must assume many things, however the optimal scenario where we might experience what's so on a moment to moment basis has no assumptions in it .... imo, mileage may vary
Fael Illyar: assumptions are natural and necessary but the assumptions that are not good are ones that you make and then never let go of.
Samuel Okelly: "assumptions that are not good are ones that you make and then never let go of." even if they are correct?
Fael Illyar: if it's correct, you don't need an assumption.

  

Samuel Okelly: i am assuming that you are say at a table now in RL... am i correct?
Caledonia Heron: easy one :)
Caledonia Heron: try a harder one
Adams Rubble: Sorry I have to go. All hell is breaking loose here :)
Adams Rubble: bye everyone :)
Fael Illyar: See you later Adams :)
Samuel Okelly: the point is that even if i was wrong, i needed to make the assumption
Gaya Ethaniel: Have a good day Adams
Samuel Okelly: tc adams
Fael Illyar: why did you need to make it?
Caledonia Heron: I assume that you will make correct moral decsions and act on them compassionately
Caledonia Heron: bye Adams :)
Caledonia Heron: is it reasonable to assume that?
Gaya Ethaniel: I think that a good 'strategy' Cal
Samuel Okelly: +well i am no saint and frequently make mistakes so i dont ALWAYS make the correct moral decidions
Fael Illyar: always good to keep in mind why you me assumptions when you do.
Fael Illyar: uh, make
Caledonia Heron: of course Samuel - take it as a hypothetical :)
Samuel Okelly: oh i do cal... :)
Caledonia Heron: :)

  

Fael Illyar: many assumptions we do routinely about others are not necessary at all.
Fael Illyar: many are actually counterproductive.
Samuel Okelly: i remain unconvinced that theres any merit to be found in a morally relativistic approach to ethics
Fael Illyar: what does it mean to be morally relativistic?
Samuel Okelly: i am using "moral relavistism" to describe a view that each person makes up there own moral worth
Caledonia Heron: there are certain truths that are not relative
Fael Illyar: Samuel, we all do.
Samuel Okelly: proof?
Fael Illyar: I'd more like want to see proof that it isn't so ... how can you tell what morals someone else has?
Fael Illyar: how can you tell if they're the same as yours?
Samuel Okelly: you made a statment and im asking for clarification
Caledonia Heron: people group up ... formally and informally
Caledonia Heron: the groups are one indicator of moral similarity
Samuel Okelly: there is a difference ppl erring at an understanding of something but that is not the same as saying that something does not exist
Fael Illyar: I guess I'll need clarification of what you mean with moral worth
Samuel Okelly: just in its simplest sense... the value we assign to the human condition
Samuel Okelly: we assign a value" to ideas of "love" for example
Fael Illyar: well, each person has their own values ... right? (I'm clearly missing something here)
Samuel Okelly: i am suggesting that maybe each person doesnt have their own values but rather a personal understanding of an objective truth
Gaya Ethaniel: For example, I see that Samuel is part of two Catholic groups in SL and remembering our conversation here yesterday with Samuel, I make an assumption that he is against abortion
Fael Illyar: umm... how is that anything but another way of expressing the same thing, Samuel?
Caledonia Heron: I would agree that there is a high percentage chance of that also Gaya ... perhaps an incorrect assumption ... again this goes to groups being indicators of morals
Samuel Okelly: moral objectivism vs moral relativism
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Cal
Fael Illyar: I do not understand the difference

  

Samuel Okelly: most ppl would accept that something such as human slavery is wrong would yolu agree?
Gaya Ethaniel: [I mean hence it's an assumption]
Fael Illyar: Yes, I'd agree that slavery is wrong.
Caledonia Heron: well most people agree killing is wrong but we have all kinds of wars, genocide going on
Fael Illyar: and yes, that most people would agree ad well
Samuel Okelly: the moral objectivist would argue that slavery was wrong yesterday, is wrong today and will be wrong tommorow
Fael Illyar: moral relativistic would then argue that it changes?
Samuel Okelly: whereas the morall relativist is unable to argue that slavery is wrong "for everyone"
Samuel Okelly: the most the moral relavitist can say is that it is wrong for them
Gaya Ethaniel: I'm afraid I need to go. Enjoy your day
Samuel Okelly: (personally speaking that is)
Fael Illyar: See you later Gaya :)
Samuel Okelly: tc gay
Caledonia Heron: bye Gaya :)
Caledonia Heron: I need to go also :)
Samuel Okelly: tc cal :)
Fael Illyar: See you later Cal :)
Caledonia Heron:  :)