2009.01.31 13:00 - Virtual violence

Wol Euler recovered this session from the autologging database and suggested a provisional title. Aurora was the guardian.

Zen Arado: I saw somebody else using one
Aurora Kitaj: Well I'm getting stressed out by my new digital camera in rl
Aurora Kitaj: so don't think I could cope with a TV on sl
Zen Arado: life is getting too technical
Adelene Dawner snerks.
Zen Arado: especially for us old folks!
Adelene Dawner giggles at Squee.
Zen Arado: in ZEn they say 'in the expet's mind there are few possibilites
Aurora Kitaj: hate to admit it Zen, but for me it's so true
Zen Arado: so cultivate a 'beginners mind'
Zen Arado: you sure need it in SL!
Zen Arado: have we a topic?
Aurora Kitaj: Adelene, thanks for sitting so close to me. In rl it's so cold and you are keeping me warm ;)
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Zen Arado: how does having a fury avatar affect your real life persona?
Zen Arado: maybe it doesn't
Adelene Dawner: It does... but I tend to think in metaphors to begin with, so that's how it works for me.
Zen Arado: or how does any avatar affect rl peresona?
Adelene Dawner: (I have stuff to say on that but am in IM - one moment)
Zen Arado: we all think in metaphors
Zen Arado: I think
Aurora Kitaj: Hi Scath
Scathach Rhiadra: Hi Aurora:)
Zen Arado: Hi Scath
Aurora Kitaj: and welcome back Aisha
Scathach Rhiadra: Hi Zen, Friend, Adekine:)
Friend Oliva: Hi
Aurora Kitaj: We are sort of talking about the problems with new technology
Scathach Rhiadra: ah, a perenial subject
Zen Arado: sometimes I feel like giving up onit
Aurora Kitaj: especially those experienced by those who maybe young at heart, but not so young in numbers
Zen Arado: computers especially
Zen Arado: so time consumimg just keeping them going
Zen Arado: and trying to understand them
Aurora Kitaj: like anything that has instructions in small text for me ;(
Scathach Rhiadra: or the instructions are badly tanslated from chinese
Zen Arado: I can't change the time on my watch without consulting the manual
Adelene Dawner is out of IM now
Zen Arado: yes and so complicated
Aurora Kitaj: Friend, where are you with new technology?
Aurora Kitaj: and Scath, how about you?
Aurora Kitaj: Hi Nicholas, great to see you here ;)
Zen Arado: Hi Nicholas
Aurora Kitaj: Is this your first time at Play as Being
Nicholas Hawthorne: hi
Scathach Rhiadra: I find it ok, though rarely use manuals after I get the basics
Friend Oliva: I'm asking myself, why they take so much of our time without giving much back
Scathach Rhiadra: Hi Nicolas
Scathach Rhiadra: I just use trial and error mostly:)
Aurora Kitaj: Hi Poppie, come and take a seat
Aurora Kitaj: nice of you to come and join us..
Zen Arado: trial and error is dangerous!
Aurora Kitaj: we're talking about new technology and problems using it
Scathach Rhiadra: Hi Poppy
Zen Arado: Hi Poppie
Aurora Kitaj: or maybe if people find it easy, why?
Poppie Sorbet: hi everyone x
Aurora Kitaj: Hi Lefonz
Scathach Rhiadra: true Zen, but if its works basically, I've sometimes found new functions by chance
Zen Arado: Hi Lefonz
Aurora Kitaj: Nice to see you again ;)
Poppie Sorbet: will wait til everything has rezzed then have a seat
Friend Oliva: Hello
Aurora Kitaj: Come and take a seat
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Fefonz:)
Fefonz Quan: hello everyone :-)
Zen Arado: mobile phones ar beyond a large percentage of the population
Zen Arado: they get children to set them
Scathach Rhiadra: they are particularly difficult to understand:)
Aurora Kitaj: Lefonz, we are talking about new technology, blessings and pitfalls ;)
Nicholas Hawthorne: lag
Fefonz Quan: thanks :)
Poppie Sorbet: I dont think I could live without an internet connection now
Aurora Kitaj: owner ship of movile phones has over taken the population
Fefonz Quan: i can adopt it as my Franch version name
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Poppie Sorbet: can do without a mobile or phone
Scathach Rhiadra: I can't imagine life without SL either:)
Zen Arado: I find that if peope are too knowledgeable and geeky in here it creates a kind of class division
Friend Oliva: I don't need TV
Zen Arado: yes you get addicted
Nicholas Hawthorne: life without sl would be so boring
Nicholas Hawthorne: at least for some people
Zen Arado: are we addicted?
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Aurora Kitaj: when it goes down, sl is hard to do without
Aurora Kitaj: what could people do without?
Scathach Rhiadra: well, I haven't turned on the TV for months
Nicholas Hawthorne: i hate when there is a power outage, then there is really nothing to do, no TV, no Wii, no sl, or internet
Fefonz Quan: well, till 4 months ago i've lived without SL and had no complaints...
Fefonz Quan: (and havev not TV too)
Scathach Rhiadra: but now Fefonz, would you give it up?
Scathach Rhiadra: SL
Poppie Sorbet: I dont watch tv...........unless it's a documentry
Zen Arado: I watch the news
Fefonz Quan: no, mostly four the great company :)
Fefonz Quan: but it is just another way of communication
Nicholas Hawthorne: hehe, the only channels i watch has to do with science, discovery communications, and nasa TV
Aurora Kitaj: Sorry Fefonz, oops about getting your name wrong
Zen Arado: big lag in messages!
Zen Arado: some of them!
Fefonz Quan: (It sounded nice Aurora, np :))
Scathach Rhiadra: does NASA do TV?
Zen Arado: tv is too passive for me now
Aurora Kitaj: Probably
Zen Arado: sl mad me realise how passive it was
Nicholas Hawthorne: yeah, nasa does do TV, dish network is channel 213
Aurora Kitaj: Hey, they do have some good documentaries on now and again
Aurora Kitaj: you cannot deny that
Scathach Rhiadra: ah, ty Nicholas
Zen Arado: you just sit there and take whatever they give you
Adelene Dawner: "TV is like a really, really good screensaver"
Zen Arado: ha ha
Scathach Rhiadra: heh
Nicholas Hawthorne: or watch it live on the internet >nasa.gov/nasaTV
Friend Oliva: But TV can be very relaxing
Aurora Kitaj: Someone told me sl was a screen saver yesterday
Nicholas Hawthorne: lol, well i've seen the login screen be a screensaver
Fefonz Quan: sorry for the cliche, but i think we need to separate between the technology per ce, and the ways we are using it
Nicholas Hawthorne: or a desktop picture
Zen Arado: they spin the content out in documentaries though
Fefonz Quan: cell phone is great when your car got stuck in the middle of the snow blizard
Zen Arado: they make maybe 4 points and padd them out with fancy graphics
Nicholas Hawthorne: zen not always, some documentaries are really well made, the show "Planet Earth" is an example
Zen Arado: ok
Aurora Kitaj: well in the really good ones that is not obvious (documentaries)
Zen Arado: some of them are good
Aurora Kitaj: anything by David Attenborough
Nicholas Hawthorne: planet earth took 5 years to film, and alot of $
Fefonz Quan: but cell phones are horrible when you need to hear on the bus about your neightbours last night adventures
Poppie Sorbet: I Lurve David........
Nicholas Hawthorne: lol,
Aurora Kitaj: David?
Zen Arado: can you watch it anywhere?
Aisha Heaney: david tennant?
Aurora Kitaj: k
Nicholas Hawthorne: watch what?
Aurora Kitaj: lol
Poppie Sorbet: am watching one on bbc tommorrow about darwin
Aurora Kitaj: you a Dr Who fan Aisha?
Aurora Kitaj: ^^
Aisha Heaney: mmhmm
Nicholas Hawthorne: lol
Scathach Rhiadra: yes, and somepeople seem to have to keep upgrading their phones all the time,when they can't even use them correctly
Poppie Sorbet: Attenborough
Nicholas Hawthorne: scrubs is a good show too,
Zen Arado: i am too critical now
Nicholas Hawthorne: who watches the daily show with jon stewart?
Scathach Rhiadra: ah, American?
Fefonz Quan: yes, Scathach, and then they are into waisting a lot of money for nothing
Zen Arado: I can't seem to immerse myself in dramas
Aurora Kitaj: Oh yes, anyone use AIM? Sent 20 messages a day to the same person
Zen Arado: talk show
Aurora Kitaj: too much contact can be a bad too;)
Fefonz Quan: Lost - my donation to the TV shows here, tough i watch in on the internet - does it count?
Nicholas Hawthorne: lol the daily show is so funny sometimes, that i laugh, and i'm not the kind of person who laughs out loud often
Aisha Heaney: we use AIM
Zen Arado: what about sport?
Scathach Rhiadra: ah, I loved Lost
Aurora Kitaj: that's a negative lol
Fefonz Quan: 5th season is on, and it is goood
Aurora Kitaj: (sport)
Nicholas Hawthorne: lol the only sports i watch is what my dad watches
Nicholas Hawthorne: lol
Aurora Kitaj: Never seen Lost
Zen Arado: season of what?
Scathach Rhiadra: I might just have to turn the TV on for that:)
Fefonz Quan: Lost
Zen Arado: oh
Aurora Kitaj: but know that it's addictivie
Zen Arado: never seen it
Nicholas Hawthorne: i've heard it's good, like one of those other shows, like survivor, or house or something
Fefonz Quan: well, 50 minutes a week, how much harm can it be?
Zen Arado: I watch soccer sometimes
Aurora Kitaj: who do you support Zen?
Zen Arado: Manchester United
Zen Arado: of course :)
Aurora Kitaj: :)
Nicholas Hawthorne: lol
Scathach Rhiadra: anyone use Twitter?
Zen Arado: no
Fefonz Quan: what is twitter?
Poppie Sorbet: no
Nicholas Hawthorne: nopew
Friend Oliva: no, but what is it all about?
Scathach Rhiadra: you have never heard of Twitter?
Zen Arado: heard of it
Friend Oliva: yes
Aisha Heaney: we use twitter too
Zen Arado: like Facebook?
Aurora Kitaj: Yes, to all
Nicholas Hawthorne: itsn't Twitter like facebook ,or myspace
Scathach Rhiadra: yes like facebook, but much simpler
Nicholas Hawthorne: lol
Zen Arado: I use Facebook
Aurora Kitaj: Me too
Zen Arado: I can waste enough time with that
Nicholas Hawthorne: anyone use skype?
Zen Arado: yes
Friend Oliva: no
Fefonz Quan: non of the above, my true friends know how to find me :-)
Zen Arado: but rarely
Scathach Rhiadra: no
Zen Arado: facebook is good
Poppie Sorbet: I use facebook
Nicholas Hawthorne: yeah it is good lol
Zen Arado: like this in a way
Scathach Rhiadra: I have a friend, here in SL, who joined twitter a while ago...
Zen Arado: I can now post videos !
Nicholas Hawthorne is about to kill the birds, becuase he is getting annoyed
Scathach Rhiadra: now she must be 'tweeting' about 20 updates an hour
Fefonz Quan: i relly like the birds :)
Zen Arado: me too
Zen Arado: crows though ?
Nicholas Hawthorne: it's enough that it's a bird, it's a crow for goodness sakes!, i hate the sound of them
Aurora Kitaj: Hello Tenk, nice of you to come ;)
Zen Arado: harbingers of death haha
Aurora Kitaj: We're talking about techno fear and all the good things it can do too!
Aurora Kitaj: Come and take a seat
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Tenk
Friend Oliva: Hi
Zen Arado: Hi Tenk
Fefonz Quan: hi tenk
Tenk Kidd: Hello all!
Poppie Sorbet: Hi Tenk
Fefonz Quan: i think tech is exactly like ny sharp kitchen knife
Friend Oliva: Technology costs also a lot of money
Nicholas Hawthorne: brb
Fefonz Quan: as long as you know how to handle it, you won't get cut
Friend Oliva: e.g. SL is for the First-World
Zen Arado: yes
Nicholas Hawthorne: bk
Nicholas Hawthorne: brb again
Aurora Kitaj: wb Nicholas
Nicholas Hawthorne: afk
Zen Arado: only Western nations in here
Friend Oliva: Sometimes I feel ashame, when hearing
Zen Arado: yes
Fefonz Quan: yet, soemtimes it develops so fast, that the morals, socil behaviour and psychological sides are lagging behind tremendously
Friend Oliva: that one avatar needs the current of an average
Friend Oliva: Brasilien
Scathach Rhiadra: yes, but there are some efforts to distribute cheap computers to the third world, and get a lot of people online
Scathach Rhiadra: so they can benefit from the internet
Zen Arado: but slow
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Zen Arado: I have a friend lives in Tunisia
Fefonz Quan: when i was in India, there were many internet coffee's around
Zen Arado: cant get youtube his govt doesnt allow it
Friend Oliva: >es, I know that from Peru
Aurora Kitaj: are there many people from developing countires?
Friend Oliva: there are also a lot of Internet-Cafes
Aurora Kitaj: like africa, india and so on
Zen Arado: there are rich people in India too
Zen Arado: it is developing fast
Zen Arado: and China
Fefonz Quan: well, very few percentage
Nicholas Hawthorne: bk, had to take the phone
Zen Arado: admittedly
Aurora Kitaj: Hi there Tarmel, nice to see you;)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Tarmel:)
Aurora Kitaj: Please come and take a seat
Zen Arado: Hi Tarmel
Fefonz Quan: Hey tarmel, good to see you :)
Nicholas Hawthorne: ow
Tarmel Udimo: hello veryone
Poppie Sorbet: Hi Tarmel
Aurora Kitaj: Just whist we are talking about technology, can I mention that it seems that the younger generation often find it really easy
Nicholas Hawthorne: lol
Zen Arado: what generation is that Arora?
Scathach Rhiadra: yes, they grow up with it
Fefonz Quan: yeah, they would find it really hard to spend some days without a cell
Aurora Kitaj: can I mention that I know that certain ppl here are
Aurora Kitaj: brilliant at building on sl
Zen Arado: I a few generations beyond them :)
Aurora Kitaj: the most incredible structures like space ships
Poppie Sorbet: yes, more difficult for us as we had to learn and adjust, they get taught stuff at school, most classrooms are interactive and computer based
Tenk Kidd: One of the problems with web-based communities like SL is that Governments interpret it as a threat to their soveriegnty, which I find very odd as most manufacturing is done by multinationals.
Fefonz Quan: who is the rocket engineer here?
Tarmel Udimo: where can one see the space ships
Zen Arado: they are afraid of new ideas Tenk
Aurora Kitaj: Nicholas
Scathach Rhiadra: they are afraid of loosing control
Tarmel Udimo: like your feathers nicholas
Zen Arado: people would see how muc freedom there is in other parts of the world
Nicholas Hawthorne: thnxs lol
Zen Arado: not me!
Aurora Kitaj: believe
Aurora Kitaj: Tenk it is Nicholas
Zen Arado: I still dont know what I am doing
Zen Arado: just muddle along
Tarmel Udimo: can we ride in your space ships nicolas?
Fefonz Quan: eah, me too :)
Aurora Kitaj: nor do I most of the time Zen, just make it up as you go along
Nicholas Hawthorne: um well,
Zen Arado: yes
Aurora Kitaj: giggles
Nicholas Hawthorne: let me think
Zen Arado: thats me all right :)
Tenk Kidd: In SL, a design house for spaceships is Ananke
Fefonz Quan: we can have group trips some times
Nicholas Hawthorne: i would have to mod something to have all of you come to the space station at once
Zen Arado: where do you go?
Poppie Sorbet: How many poeple can fit in ur spaceshop?
Nicholas Hawthorne: plus it's on a special sim lol
Nicholas Hawthorne: well, i have ships that carry only 3, i have a ship that carries 10 but, will have to mod something to have you get out
Nicholas Hawthorne: in "space"
Aurora Kitaj: cool
Tarmel Udimo: count me in
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Tenk Kidd: There is the old saying 'Knowledge is Power' - by controlling or diverting the spreasof knowledge, politicians can exert leverage on populations and become powerful themselves...
Nicholas Hawthorne: i will have to do it fast lol
Fefonz Quan: ah, space, if only we had the ability to teleport there ;-)
Tarmel Udimo: I think religion used to hold power that way tooo
Scathach Rhiadra: in some places it stilldoes Tarmel
Tarmel Udimo: imagine not being able to read and write
Zen Arado: yes
Nicholas Hawthorne: well, i have the next best thing fefonz, i go to like 600 m up
Tarmel Udimo: hey that sounds good
Fefonz Quan: too low for space, the last time ive chaecked
Zen Arado: You can't fly freely around SL though?
Nicholas Hawthorne: and being up that high, if you stand up and i'm docking the ship, you fall
Nicholas Hawthorne: lol
Tenk Kidd: I think that is true Tarmel, sometimes by perpetuating ignorance and labelling it faith or virtue
Nicholas Hawthorne: we are talking m here
Nicholas Hawthorne: lol
Fefonz Quan: yo, it might take longer trhan 9 seconds, this fall...
Nicholas Hawthorne: hehe
Zen Arado: can you kill an aavatar?
Aurora Kitaj: hope not!
Nicholas Hawthorne: 600 + m to 26 m
Aurora Kitaj: ;)
Scathach Rhiadra: I've fallen from 2000 m
Nicholas Hawthorne: lol
Aurora Kitaj: Scath takes the record
Nicholas Hawthorne: what's the limit where you can edit a ship
Tenk Kidd: there was recently a 'murder case' in japan in mapelworld
Fefonz Quan: (me too, with a parachute)
Tarmel Udimo: yes when more and more people were able to read that's when freedom began
Zen Arado: yes
Nicholas Hawthorne: lol
Tarmel Udimo: mapelworld?
Fefonz Quan: (land of the pancakes?)
Nicholas Hawthorne: lol
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Nicholas Hawthorne: tha'ts maple
Zen Arado: I heard someone went into a meeting and 'killed' the people there
Tenk Kidd: I think it is called that - a play universe a little like SL
Zen Arado: oh
Tarmel Udimo: oh :-)
Tarmel Udimo: but in japan
Aurora Kitaj: you certainly learn a lot at PaB
Tarmel Udimo: yes
Nicholas Hawthorne: lol japan has alot of cutting edge stuff, i've heard somewhere that NYC is about 6 months behind japan when releasing new stuff like phones
Zen Arado: yes
Scathach Rhiadra: and what caused the murder do you know Tenk?
Nicholas Hawthorne: 6 months is a long time to wait for a cutting edge technology
Scathach Rhiadra: oops, missed your answer:)
Aurora Kitaj: I heard today that there is a town where they sell every possible electornic device ... the whole town is given over to it
Aurora Kitaj: saw pictures it's near Tokyo
Tenk Kidd: The story was that a 'partner' who was suddenly 'divorced' logged in as their former husband and deleted his account (keep your passwords difficult to guess, people!)
Tarmel Udimo: and then you have places like papanew guine where the have one mobile phone to an area and no service :-)
Zen Arado: Ah
Fefonz Quan: somehow i guess that if people hear coulc have weapons that kills, big wars at SL will start in no time :-(
Scathach Rhiadra: mm, that is unfortunalely true
Tarmel Udimo: it was weird someone showed up her with a machine gun a few days ago
Tarmel Udimo: and it felt very weird
Tenk Kidd: there are ways to disrupt an avatar, but it does not persist past a relog
Scathach Rhiadra: ah, I saw a SWAT guy here a while ago:)
Tarmel Udimo: where you here too scath
Aurora Kitaj: yes, seen that at sandboxes, guns being let off, nasty stuff
Scathach Rhiadra: a few weeks ago?
Fefonz Quan: SWAT?
Tarmel Udimo: yeah maybe it was weeks not days :-)
Zen Arado: some body ran over me with a tank in a sandbox
Aurora Kitaj: OMG
Zen Arado: didnt go there again
Scathach Rhiadra: the american special services, or something like that
Tarmel Udimo: so is a snadbox a play area
Tenk Kidd: there are gaming zones where fighting is expected - you use a 'meter' to record heath - DCS2 is an example
Fefonz Quan: what is SWAT?)
Tenk Kidd: a sandbox is an area where 'anything goes' so you can build big stuff and test scripts safely
Tarmel Udimo: i don't know why we are surprised, there must be an evolutionary button that gets switched on
Scathach Rhiadra: SWAT is like a special police tactical service
Zen Arado: for building
Tarmel Udimo: thta means you are no longer attached to violent methods of communication
Fefonz Quan: ah, ok, thanks Scath
Scathach Rhiadra: just look at athe number of serious griefers around
Tarmel Udimo: griefers?
Aurora Kitaj: aren't there role play areas on sl where people us guns etc?
Scathach Rhiadra: people who attack and disrupt other avatars
Fefonz Quan: (so when you shoot someone you send him to third life? :))
Scathach Rhiadra: haha
Tenk Kidd: Yes there are RP areas which are violent. Ord Mantel is a SciFi one, for example
Tarmel Udimo: if only fefonz and if only it happened in RL
Aurora Kitaj: to be frank, guns on sl doesn't worry that much, problem is in rl where I live, knives and guns ;(
Tarmel Udimo: RP?
Scathach Rhiadra: role play
Tarmel Udimo: ta
Fefonz Quan: where is it Aurora?
Aurora Kitaj: North East London (lots of stabbings in my area and gangs and guns)
Fefonz Quan asks in order to take coutions
Tenk Kidd: http://www.mahalo.com/Maple_Story_Murder the 'virtual Murder' story
Tarmel Udimo: thnaks tank
Zen Arado: ty Tenk
Tarmel Udimo: tenk sorry
Fefonz Quan: wow, and i thought london is a safe civilized city
Zen Arado: It's funny I live in N.Ireland and it is relativesl peaceful
Aurora Kitaj: Don't believe the PR, but for white middle class it pretty safe
Zen Arado: we don't get stabbings much
Scathach Rhiadra: we do in Dublin
Friend Oliva: In Frankfurt it is peaceful
Fefonz Quan: Great britain rules here i see :)
Poppie Sorbet: OMG............cant beleive woman got jailed
Aurora Kitaj: Poppie, I'm I being too down on our part of London?
Fefonz Quan: (or should i say united kingdoms, no offense meant anyhow)
Tarmel Udimo: reading about japanese women wow
Scathach Rhiadra: ahem, Dublin is in Ireland:)
Poppie Sorbet: No.............it is notoriously ruff!!!--lol
Zen Arado: maybe you get more publicity there
Zen Arado: I find the BBC tends to ignore the rest of Britain
Zen Arado: south east is most important
Fefonz Quan: yeah, i thought i missed that one... Sorry Scath
Aurora Kitaj: Hate to say this, but get the impression women's low status in Japanese society is maybe part of the problem (this is a guess)
Scathach Rhiadra: its possible
Zen Arado: it is changing rapidly though
Aurora Kitaj: Please tell Zen
Zen Arado: manyy are getting divorces
Zen Arado: there was a TV program a year or two ago
Zen Arado: they won't put up with husbands who spend all their time at work and after drinking Sake
Aurora Kitaj: I find Japan a ver ystrange country, it seems to break some rules
Fefonz Quan: well,you can understand that
Fefonz Quan: (to Zens message)
Aurora Kitaj: first it is afluent, and yet women have until recently had low status,
Aurora Kitaj: also it is perhaps the most technically advanced country in the world,
Aurora Kitaj: doesn't make sense
Scathach Rhiadra: it is also very 'insular'...
Fefonz Quan: aer you expecting correlation Aurora?
Zen Arado: old tradtions die hard
Scathach Rhiadra: there is a huge japanes community here in SL, but they don't mix
Aurora Kitaj: women are evidently as able as men to understand and develop technology and yet they are excluded in Japan?
Fefonz Quan: maybe, but why should technology lead to equality?
Aurora Kitaj: modernity = equality?
Zen Arado: thanks for discussion
Zen Arado: I have to go
Aurora Kitaj: leaving behind old ideas?
Zen Arado: bye
Fefonz Quan: thanks Zen, :)
Poppie Sorbet: Bye Zen
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Zen, namasté
Friend Oliva: Bye Zen
Aurora Kitaj: Zen thanks for you contributions
Tarmel Udimo: thanks guys, I have to go too, but it was nice meeting some new people
Tenk Kidd: I think there are difficult to understand cultural reasons for women not to enter technology as fully as men in Japan and in other cultures
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Tarmel, take care:)
Tarmel Udimo: see you next time
Poppie Sorbet: bye Tarmel
Fefonz Quan: see you tarmel
Aurora Kitaj: By Tarmel
Aurora Kitaj: thanks for coming
Fefonz Quan: i think there is no connection between technology, even modernity and morality
Poppie Sorbet: am off as well................
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Poppie
Tenk Kidd: Bye!
Fefonz Quan: some of the worst regimes were quite advanced technologically and culturally
Aurora Kitaj: Thanks for coming along and your contirbutions Poppie
Aurora Kitaj: Great to see you ;)
Fefonz Quan: bye Poppie
Poppie Sorbet: bye everyone, it has been lovely...................
Scathach Rhiadra nods @ Fefonz
Poppie Sorbet: and you too Aurora, looking fab!
Aurora Kitaj: Come again any time
Aurora Kitaj: thanks
Poppie Sorbet: will do x
Aurora Kitaj: ;)
Poppie Sorbet: bye Fefonz, Tenk, Scathach and friend
Friend Oliva: good night
Aurora Kitaj: Fefonz, that may very well be true, but seems to fly in the face of what were are all told
Aurora Kitaj: that we must embrace change and modernity
Fefonz Quan: so we should recheck all those tellings
Aurora Kitaj: so equality is completely separate? I htough a just society would be a more afective society
Fefonz Quan: free market, someone?
Aurora Kitaj: its that ago old problem ;)
Fefonz Quan: ego?
Aurora Kitaj: maybe
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Fefonz Quan: age?
Scathach Rhiadra: valuing the self above others
Aurora Kitaj: feel like pulling Zen back for this ^^
Aurora Kitaj: we were talking about exactly this not long ago
Scathach Rhiadra: yes, I remember:)
Fefonz Quan: if you could give us a link, it will be nice
Aurora Kitaj: but I will not go away, will it
Fefonz Quan: (reduce the chance we'll resay the same things)
Aurora Kitaj: I have a note card, is that anygood, Zen sent to me today. We were talking about being clingy
Fefonz Quan: (clingony?) :)
Aurora Kitaj: I said I wasn't and he explained that he didn't say I was, he just wanted to talk about attachment
Scathach Rhiadra: the chat log should be from this time Saturday a few weeks ago
Aurora Kitaj: but not sure whether I should given he's not here to give his sayso
Fefonz Quan: well if it's recordeed, you should feel free to summerize his ideas i guess
Fefonz Quan: or summarize, ir you like)
Aurora Kitaj: hold on
Aurora Kitaj: please do
Fefonz Quan: ?
Aurora Kitaj: "In our view, "suffering" is (in a nutshell) mental resistance to what is, attachment to what is not. Thus, old age, sickness, physical pain and death are not "suffering" in a Buddhist sense if there is no resistance. Easiest example: If you are getting old, infirm and slowing dying ... but your attitude is to "go with the flow", embracing the change, being one with the process, allowing it all, being in each moment without thought of how things "could be better" or "should be some other way" ... then where is the suffering? "Pain", maybe, but "suffering" no. Or, if you are attached to a loved one who leaves or dies ... and you release the attachment (loving them when present, letting them go when they go), there is no suffering. Even if there may yet be some grief or sadness at the parting but (if one embraces the human condition of sometimes being sad too), there is no "suffering". Perhaps natural human "sadness", yes, but no "suffering".
Tenk Kidd: Reads a bit like elements of Cognitive Behaviour Therapy...
Fefonz Quan: very good old basic buddhism, long before the word cognitive was around
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Tenk Kidd: ah, I think they may have used different analogies, but to the same ends
Aurora Kitaj: It touches on some of thoyes I can see why you would think that Tenk
Fefonz Quan: it is very well said, Aurora, but can you help me see the connection to our last discussion?
Aurora Kitaj: for me it does touch on some of those me society issues
Aurora Kitaj: although it may not intend to
Fefonz Quan: could you expand?
Aurora Kitaj: this might be very simplistic, but if you accept suffering in yourself, should you also allow and or accept it in others? For me the answer is no,
Aurora Kitaj: especially if i have a duty to care for someone like a child
Aurora Kitaj: maybe I'm missing the point, but this philosophy misses out societies response to discress of attachment.
Aurora Kitaj: sorry if I've got the wrong end of hte stick ;)
Fefonz Quan: on one hand, there is the suffering of oneself, coming from craving and attachement,
Aurora Kitaj: hmm
Fefonz Quan: but on the other hand, buddhism put a lot into compassion
Aurora Kitaj: listens
Fefonz Quan: which is - caring for other and empathy like their suffering is yours
Fefonz Quan: so in this percpective, benefiting yourself on the account of others is very wrong, aginainst all the profound teachings
Aurora Kitaj: thank you Fefonz, that's much clearer
Aurora Kitaj: I've just noticed the time
Aurora Kitaj: sorry every one
Aurora Kitaj: should have given people a time check at 2pm
Scathach Rhiadra: thanks Aurora
Aurora Kitaj: and i've let it drift
Fefonz Quan: no problem, Aurora :)
Scathach Rhiadra: good night, take care
Aurora Kitaj: this has been so interesting for me
Fefonz Quan: we are adult people,
Fefonz Quan: :)
Tenk Kidd: empathy is not a simple concept, or a wholly emotionalone. I do not think it applies to groups of people either - itcan onlyarise within an individual
Aurora Kitaj: thanks so much for staying etralong
Fefonz Quan: thanks aurora :)
Aurora Kitaj: yes Tenk
Friend Oliva: Thanks
Fefonz Quan: Tenk, coming to the bottom of it, every decision made by a society is made by individuals, at least the ones governing it
Fefonz Quan: (governing - i meant leading)
Friend Oliva: We are roled upon
Aurora Kitaj: Well it's another beautiful evening here in sl, and we are far from the very real problems inthe world
Aurora Kitaj: at the moment
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Tenk Kidd: I think you may be right Fefonz, but there is a tendency in every individual to abdiate their personal responsibility and take on the view of the geoup they are part of - be it mob, political party or religion - to 'fit in'
Fefonz Quan: A very old jewish wise man, when asked to teach the whole Tora (the old tentimony) said: don't do to your friend what you wouldn't like be done to you"
Aurora Kitaj: swallow the easy to understand 'world view'
Fefonz Quan: Tenk, surely there are a lot of forces aroud us pushing us to do what's easy, accepted and popular instead of what's right
Fefonz Quan: and i can think of some other problematic tendencies we have
Aurora Kitaj: listens
Tenk Kidd: I think people flock, shoal and swarm in very similar ways to birds, fish and insects when id comes to ideas - it just looks different
Tenk Kidd: no man is an island
Fefonz Quan: that's just another reason not to burn your bridges to the land, sin't it?
Friend Oliva: I have to leave. I'm sorry, tomorrow is a working day for me.
Fefonz Quan: Bye Friend ;)
Aurora Kitaj: so therthanks so much for coming Friend
Tenk Kidd: few people can survive in isolation from a community of some sort
Friend Oliva: You all have a pleasent SL-Night!
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Friend
Aurora Kitaj: bye
Aurora Kitaj: thanks
Tenk Kidd: Bye Friend :)
Fefonz Quan: who suggested isolation?
Aurora Kitaj: it's part of our learning to be with others survival strategy
Tenk Kidd: the concept arose with the idea that an individual is ultimately responsible for his own actions - in some cases, that may not be possible
Fefonz Quan: ultimately resposible - within the conditions around him. responsibility does not mean everything is possible, yet it means that you have a choice
Tenk Kidd: individual choice can be savagely limited by societal setting
Fefonz Quan: you act whithin society, you get good and bad influances- from TV, internet, etc - and then you choose
Tenk Kidd: sonetimes the abrogation to society values rather than individual conscience is voluntary on the part of the individual
Fefonz Quan: abrogation?
Tenk Kidd: relinquishment of title or responsibility
Scathach Rhiadra: is that no then how they make their choice?
Scathach Rhiadra: not*
Scathach Rhiadra: to ignore their conscience
Tenk Kidd: It's a choice in advance - think hyppocratic oath for doctors, vow of chastity for monks,the king's shilling for the military...
Scathach Rhiadra: but still a choice
Scathach Rhiadra: every decision we make we have the choice
Scathach Rhiadra: we may suffer for it, but it is still there
Tenk Kidd: how do you go against an action - make a choice against a vow - once bound by it?
Fefonz Quan: if you think remaining under the vow is against your morality - you can break it
Scathach Rhiadra: you may lose your freedom, even your life, but the choice is still yours
Tenk Kidd: have you ever been in that position?
Scathach Rhiadra: no, and I hope to never be in that situation
Scathach Rhiadra: but I still have to think about it
Fefonz Quan: position of vowing?
Tenk Kidd: acting in conscience against a vow given willingly
Fefonz Quan: i don't take vows so often...
Scathach Rhiadra: suppose in my work I am asked to do something which I think is wrong, maybe even illegall...
Tenk Kidd: I think you might hhold with pride to quite a few, except you don'tthink of them that way
Scathach Rhiadra: I must choose to act according to my conscience, and maybe riskk losing my job
Aurora Kitaj: brb
Fefonz Quan nods
Tenk Kidd: KK aurora
Scathach Rhiadra: I can try shifting the responsibility onto my employers, but it is stil my choice
Scathach Rhiadra: how I act
Tenk Kidd: I believe we have free will, but the range of that will can have limits which are not imposed personally
Fefonz Quan: still within the limits the range is wide, and many times we stop way before we get to the real limit
Tenk Kidd: otherwise we could have anarchy
Tenk Kidd: Scathach, Fefonz, Aurora, I'm afraidI must ask you to excuse me - thank you for the chat :)
Fefonz Quan: as a manager of a bank, i can raise my salary from 50 miillion to 55, or i can spread 5 million between my devoted employees
Fefonz Quan: Bye tenk, thanks for the talk
Scathach Rhiadra: ah, good night Tenk, take care:)
Aurora Kitaj: hello again
Fefonz Quan: wb
Scathach Rhiadra: wb Aurora
Tenk Kidd: I hope to meet you again :)
Aurora Kitaj: still going strong! Wow
Aurora Kitaj: the debate really took off after the end of the session lol
Tenk Kidd: I have to run Aurora!
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Aurora Kitaj: Bye Tenk
Fefonz Quan: as happens often ;)
Scathach Rhiadra: namasté
Aurora Kitaj: Thanks so much for your contribution
Tenk Kidd: Bye!
Aurora Kitaj: speak soon
Scathach Rhiadra: I must go too, thanks for the discussion, it was good:)
Aurora Kitaj: I have to go too now, but there is a small proble
Scathach Rhiadra: oh?
Fefonz Quan: Thanks Scath, Aurora :)
Fefonz Quan: ?
Aurora Kitaj: not sure how i@m going to get this up ont the wiki.. carefull editing lol
Fefonz Quan: do you have the recor?
Aurora Kitaj: summary of early debate probably
Aurora Kitaj: everything
Aurora Kitaj: yes
Scathach Rhiadra: did you claim the record?
Aurora Kitaj: yes, it's just the editing takes so long for me
Aurora Kitaj: gets easier
Aurora Kitaj: have to go back to storms advice
Aurora Kitaj: have a good evening Scath and Fefonz and thanks you so much for
Fefonz Quan: mostly cut and paste with some short remarks, isn't it?
Aurora Kitaj: your contributions to the the discussion
Aurora Kitaj: I heard that Fefonz ;)
Aurora Kitaj: bye for now and thanks
Scathach Rhiadra: ah, good night Aurora, take care, namasté
Fefonz Quan: Namaste :)
Scathach Rhiadra: night Fefonz, namasté
Fefonz Quan: (how do i put the apostroph above the e?)
Scathach Rhiadra: ah, its the button 'Alt GR' +e
Scathach Rhiadra: key*
Fefonz Quan: great :)
Fefonz Quan: Night Scatch
Scathach Rhiadra: :)