2009.01.31 19:00 - The lines of friendship

 The guardian at this meeting was Sylectra and the comments are hers.

Adelene Dawner: 'lo Syl!

Adelene Dawner: Meet pridemate Aisha!

Aisha Heaney: hi!

Sylectra Darwin: Hi Aisha!

Sylectra Darwin: Thanks for the lift, Ade. :)

Adelene Dawner: ^.^

Sylectra Darwin: Excuse me a minute...brb

Sylectra Darwin: back

Sylectra Darwin: So how are you guys tonight?

Adelene Dawner: Sleepy but good :)

Aisha Heaney: we're ok

Adelene Dawner: ^.^

Sylectra Darwin: Well good. I am sleepy too - very loooong week.

Adelene Dawner is pondering relationships, these last few days.

Adelene Dawner: pondering, even.

Sylectra Darwin: maybe a little of both?

Adelene Dawner: heh

Adelene Dawner: I find myself suddenly less picky about who I consider a pridemate... I'm still very picky, but not as completely perfectionistic about it as I was... which is kind of scary, but I've figured out why that's happening, and I think it's probably a good thing in the end.

Aisha Heaney nestle with their catbird. "Adelene is a friend and confidant and family to us."

Adelene Dawner snuggles Aisha.

Squee: If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.

Aisha Heaney: are there others coming?

Sylectra Darwin: sure :)

Sylectra Darwin: I think Steven is almost ready to arrive.

Adelene Dawner: Hi Steve!

Sylectra Darwin: Hey Stevie!

stevenaia Michinaga: hello

Sylectra Darwin: have a seat.

Sylectra Darwin: It's chilly tonight so we're huddling for warmth.

Adelene Dawner has already found a lap today so you're just going to have to put up with cold toes ^.^-

stevenaia Michinaga: I need to rezz before cuddling

Sylectra Darwin: well that's uncharitable...haha

Adelene Dawner giggles.

stevenaia Michinaga: not me

stevenaia Michinaga: hello Aisha, have we met?

Sylectra Darwin: So Aisha, this is the first time I have seen you here, although I am not usually around on Saturdays.

Sylectra Darwin: grins

Aisha Heaney: yes, we're new

Aisha Heaney: hello

stevenaia Michinaga: hello, how many of you are there in there?

Sylectra Darwin: Are we of many minds tonight?

Aisha Heaney: we are luparo, a system of three

stevenaia Michinaga: wonders how you came across this group?

Adelene Dawner: I know Aisha from a group she and I used to belong to, a while ago.

Sylectra Darwin: Are there really three of you in there?

Aisha Heaney: jessica, dawn, and erica.

Aisha Heaney: erica doesn't really front unless she's needed, so really it's just the two of us right now :)

stevenaia Michinaga: ..smiles, friends are especially welcome

Adelene Dawner grins at Steve. ^.^

Sylectra Darwin: well that is cool.

Sylectra Darwin: we're a relaxed bunch tonight.

Adelene Dawner did have a topic if we want one.

Sylectra Darwin: I am finally relaxing after a very challenging week.

Sylectra Darwin: Sure, Ade!

Aisha Heaney: there are almost as many as earlier, and we're in a far better mindspace to be here

stevenaia Michinaga: I was painting (a room ) all day, it was very relaxing, like meditation

Adelene Dawner: [19:05] Adelene Dawner is pondering relationships, these last few days.

[19:07] Adelene Dawner: I find myself suddenly less picky about who I consider a pridemate... I'm still very picky, but not as completely perfectionistic about it as I was... which is kind of scary, but I've figured out why that's happening, and I think it's probably a good thing in the end.

Adelene Dawner: (pridemate = seriously more of a big deal than 'friends')

Sylectra Darwin: I know what you mean, Ade.

Sylectra Darwin: We get it down to the essentials the next time around after a disappointing relationship.

Sylectra Darwin: Are we on a journey we can share? Can we grow and laugh together?

stevenaia Michinaga: I have considered similar things related to evaluation of new people... settled on acceptance until the situation tells me otherwise

Adelene Dawner: Well... the pridemate thing isn't really about Tommy... I've looked at people as pride/near-pride/friends/aquaintences for a long time, actually.

stevenaia Michinaga: open first, evaluate later, that way you start with closeness... of sorts, maybe not immidiately but soon after

Adelene Dawner: mmhmm

Sylectra Darwin: The trick is maintaining the childlike wonder of the other person.

Adelene Dawner: I tend to be really open with friends. The difference is that I don't trust friends to give advice or comment reasonably on my life.

Sylectra Darwin: That sounds like a fair boundary line, unless you are needing their advice.

Adelene Dawner: Pride... I do... Three and Corvi are very good examples of that. They can talk me into things that I'd *never* do on my own, things that really realy scare me, that I see as dangerous... that's a lot of power to give someone.

stevenaia Michinaga: always amazed the impact of words on actions

Sylectra Darwin: That's trust.

stevenaia Michinaga: yes sylectra

Adelene Dawner: And up 'till... oh, a few weeks ago? I was *exceptionally* picky about trusting people like that, almost to the point of paranoia in some ways... and then all of a sudden... I'm not...

stevenaia Michinaga: do the three of you Aisha trust each other equally?

Aisha Heaney: we share headspace. we have to

Sylectra Darwin: That's wonderful Ade.

Adelene Dawner is not sure 'wonderful' is the right word.

Adelene Dawner: 'dangerous' and 'stupid' come to mind first.

stevenaia Michinaga: if it allows you to "drop" resistance, it is

Squee: Even after all this time, the sun never says to the earth, "you owe me". Look what happens with a love like that. It lights the whole sky.

Sylectra Darwin: "trusting" and "letting go" are very powerful things.

Adelene Dawner: and dangerous. I *know* they are, I've been hurt like that before.

Adelene Dawner: But like I said, I've figured out why that's happening... still not used to it, but I see why, and it does make sense, kind of.

Sylectra Darwin: Part of the ebb and flow of life, don't you think? I won't say it's all joy rides.

stevenaia Michinaga: yes, the label "gullible" is sometimes worn bye the open souls (like me)

Adelene Dawner nodnods at Steve.

Aisha Heaney: :)

Adelene Dawner: I've never been gullible. The situations I was in, I had no choice but to trust people... parents, authority figures. But it taught me that when I did have the choice, it wasn't really a choice at all, because one way was so life-threateningly dangerous.

Sylectra Darwin: There is a way to be open to everythng and still not get hurt. But it takes some spiritual chops.

Adelene Dawner nods at Syl.

Adelene Dawner: Anyway, what I finally realized, somewhere in the back of my brain where it's useful, is that I *do* have power, even when I'm not directly in control... that if I trust someone and they do betray me, it's not actually that likely to be life-threatening now... I can take steps to control the damage.

Sylectra Darwin: Well it's true that in dangerous situations your survival instincts are more important.

Sylectra Darwin: yes.

Sylectra Darwin: I am living with two teenage girls right now. And watching how they interact with others their age is quite illuminating,

Adelene Dawner: Didn't have that option, most of the times it was important, and didn't realize I had it for a lot more.

Sylectra Darwin: One of them blindly trusts everyone and she gets hurt a lot.

stevenaia Michinaga: how unfortunate

Sylectra Darwin: The other one is cautious about who gets to be in her inner circle

Sylectra Darwin: The latter has a solid but small circle of friends who never let her down.

Adelene Dawner nods.

stevenaia Michinaga: trust begets trust for the worthy... much like love... it grows

Adelene Dawner: mmhmm

Sylectra Darwin: A beautiful thing...and if I could kind of extend that example, I would say it's a pleasure to be able to interact with lovely people who have good energy...even if they are your waiter or the grocer or your tailor

A new arrival joined us.

Sylectra Darwin: Shawn, hello.

Adelene Dawner nods at Syl.

stevenaia Michinaga: yes

Shawn Varriale: hello

Adelene Dawner: That's kind of like something I was thinking about, too, related...

Sylectra Darwin: Would you like to join us?

Adelene Dawner: It's odd some of the people who I think if as 'pride'...

Aisha Heaney: we've been hurt a lot in thepast but for now... we have a circle of partners and a circle of friends and family of choice

Adelene Dawner: and some of the people I don't...

Adelene Dawner: Like, Moon *just* graduated from near-pride to pride... but another person I know, who I speak to maybe once a month for a few hours, I realized a few days ago that I definitely think of her as pride.

stevenaia Michinaga: your circle grows

Adelene Dawner: mmhmm

stevenaia Michinaga: greater joy

Sylectra Darwin: New/old friends...all good.

Adelene Dawner nods ^.^

Adelene Dawner: Still kinda poking at that whole 'I have power' thing. It's odd.

Sylectra Darwin: We all have power. I am glad you know you do.

Adelene Dawner nods. "I knew I did... but this is a kind I hadn't noticed before."

Adelene Dawner: Very different from what I'm used to, which is the power to say no, and cut people off, and put up walls to stay safe.

Sylectra Darwin: power...or choice?

stevenaia Michinaga: I often reflect on the "speed of closeness" as it relates to giving of power to others rather than having power

stevenaia Michinaga: the power of openness

Adelene Dawner: choice and power are almost the same thing

Adelene Dawner: In fact that might be a better way of wording it, as choice...

Adelene Dawner: I knew I had the choice to tell people to go bugger off.

stevenaia Michinaga: lol

stevenaia Michinaga: the real "trick" is to not need to tell them

Adelene Dawner: I just realized that I can make the choice to let people stay, even when they're not completely 110% trustworthy, and still be safe-enough, doing so.

Adelene Dawner nods at Steve.

Adelene Dawner: Being able to tell people to bugger off is important, but it's also important to use it wisely and sparingly.

stevenaia Michinaga: yes, the hard part is to not let things "get to you"

Adelene Dawner: Yep.

Adelene Dawner: Sometimes 'bugger off' *is* the right choice, though. It was with Tommy, in the end... *he* decided to turn it into his way or no way, so, no way.

stevenaia Michinaga: his power, his choice

Adelene Dawner: mmhmm

stevenaia Michinaga: but had he accepted your thoughts?... hmm

Adelene Dawner: I'd ask in what sense you meant, but the answer is almost certainly 'no' regardless of what the answer would be.

stevenaia Michinaga: power can also be the appearance of controlling other

Sylectra Darwin: Is that power? Or manipulation, or maybe control?

stevenaia Michinaga: you can choose to tell someone to bugger off, but they don't have to, you may have to choose to leave

stevenaia Michinaga: for example

Adelene Dawner: leaving is a type of 'telling someone to bugger off'

stevenaia Michinaga: yes

Adelene Dawner: who leaves the location is a matter of who claims the territory, not about who decides that the relationship is over.

Adelene Dawner: If it'd been my apartment, he'd've been the one to leave... but it'd still have been me telling him to bugger off.

Sylectra Darwin: hmmm

Shawn Varriale: I've been trying to determine your exact topic of convo right now but uh I haven't quite got it yet...

Sylectra Darwin: grins

stevenaia Michinaga: we talk about the nature of reality here

Squee: You always deserve to be the most important person in somebody's life.

Shawn Varriale: apparently...but like i mean right now

Sylectra Darwin: right now we are talking about personal power...trust, control, manipulation, and the differences between them

Adelene Dawner: Relationships, power, trust, and openness, at the moment. Might help to know that Tommy is my ex-BF, who I recently left.

stevenaia Michinaga: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Informatio..._in_a_Nutshell

stevenaia Michinaga: here is a link to the groups Wiki, we post all the conversations, is it ok if we include your comments, Shawn

Shawn Varriale: yes

stevenaia Michinaga: we meet 4 times a day, sometimes the conversatiosn are personal, other times they are more general

Sylectra Darwin: Sometimes we actually stay on topic, too. :)

stevenaia Michinaga: not we here, a larger groups of approx 30 of us

Adelene Dawner: hehehe

Shawn Varriale: haha

Sylectra Darwin: But what is actually on topic is always open to interpretation.

Adelene Dawner thinks we're on topic.

stevenaia Michinaga: a simple topic of relationships always has larger ripples into life

Shawn Varriale: of course

stevenaia Michinaga: feel free to join us any time Shawn, I must leave now, thanks for the invitation Sylectra, nice to see you broadening your "Pride" Ade

Adelene Dawner: ^.^

Adelene Dawner: cya around, near-pride Steve.

stevenaia Michinaga: smiles

Adelene Dawner: ^.^

Sylectra Darwin: night, Steve

Sylectra Darwin: sleep well.

Adelene Dawner thinks...

Adelene Dawner: that 'bugger off' thing... it really is kind of manipulative. I mean, not badly, not in a way I'd consider unacceptable, but it really is a case of laying down the law and telling someone that they can't do something, period the end, no room for discussion.

Sylectra Darwin: That's better known as setting the boundaries and enforcing them.

Adelene Dawner: Yep.

Sylectra Darwin: It does get easier the more you do it.

Adelene Dawner: Like I said, I don't consider it unacceptable. But I do see why some people (like, oh, my mother) really get offended.

Shawn Varriale: why do you call it manipulative?

Adelene Dawner: 'cause I tend to be very blunt and am not afraid to use negative-connotation words if they're accurate? ^.-

Sylectra Darwin: hehe, plain spoken, huh?

Shawn Varriale: lol

Shawn Varriale: i think manipulation implies deceit...bluntness isn't really manipulative, if anything else its honest

Shawn Varriale: not that its always reasonable

Adelene Dawner: Manipulating someone is bacsically by definition controling their behavior in some way. 'Laying down the law' and insisting that they not do something, in this example communicate with you, is manipulative. Not that that makes it wrong.

Aisha Heaney: That bell!

Aisha Heaney: It dings on the quarter hour doesn't it.

Sylectra Darwin: What I have noticed is that everyone views boundary-setting differently depending on their own personal growth in that area.

Aisha Heaney: We just sussed that out.

Adelene Dawner: Every 15 mins, Aisha. We're supposed to do a 9-second mini-meditaton when it rings.

Adelene Dawner nods at Syl.

Shawn Varriale: You're right Adelene I just looked up the definition of manipulate =].....

Sylectra Darwin: grins

Adelene Dawner: Some people are more sensitive to manipulation than others, or to social norms, and might react badly to boundaries being set, even if the boundaries are there for a good reason (I'm not going to say 'normal' or 'acceptable' as those are waaay to variable to define well.)

Adelene Dawner: In my mom's case it's a social norm thing... she considers it unacceptably abnormal for me to set strict boundaries with her.

Sylectra Darwin: A common role for a mom. :)

Shawn Varriale: Can you give an example of a boundary in that context? Like any example

Adelene Dawner: With my mother?

Shawn Varriale: uhh if it displays your point with another prson or whatever that would be cool too

Shawn Varriale: With your mother is probably more appropriate.

Adelene Dawner thinks

Sylectra Darwin: Good questions, Shawn.

Adelene Dawner: The first thing that pops to mind is that I do not want her even *trying* to give me advice on medical issues. I know she and I have wildly different priorities there and don't trust her not to try to sneak around and talk me into something I'd have a problem with doing.

Shawn Varriale: She considers your rejection of her advice unacceptable?

Adelene Dawner: Very.

Shawn Varriale: And you consider it acceptable?

Adelene Dawner: I consider it dangerous not to.

Shawn Varriale: lol

Shawn Varriale: Are we considering the uh

Shawn Varriale: acceptability of manipulation right now?

Adelene Dawner: mmhmm

Adelene Dawner: I don't trust her not to try to manipulate me in ways that she'd find acceptable but I find unacceptable, so I'm manipulating her (much more gently) in ways that I find acceptable and she doesn't.

Adelene Dawner: Or 'have manipulated' - we don't speak, at this point, so it's pretty moot.

Inflatable Core joined us.

Sylectra Darwin: Hi Inflatable!

Inflatable Core: hiya

Shawn Varriale: The most typical thing one could say is that youre supposed to explain to your mother the way you feel about her manipulation.

Shawn Varriale: But I dont know like I said.

Shawn Varriale: That's so typical.

Shawn Varriale: I don't know if I actually find that reasonable.

Adelene Dawner: I did try that, actually.

Sylectra Darwin: That's a tough discussion.

Shawn Varriale: yes

Adelene Dawner: In the context of 'I have a problem with you trying to do that, and here's why, and I need you to stop'.

Sylectra Darwin: Hi Gisler.

Adelene Dawner: She didn't take that well.

Sylectra Darwin: Want to join us?

Sylectra Darwin: Inflatable, you know about the Play as Being group? Is it okay if we record your comments for the wiki?

Shawn Varriale: Do you think whether or not certain manipulation is acceptable or unacceptable is something objective or subjective to a person's opinion?

Adelene Dawner: Definitely subjective.

Sylectra Darwin: Yes.

Shawn Varriale: What should one consider when deciding?

Sylectra Darwin: I usually consult my rules for fair communication in relationships.

Adelene Dawner: I tend to go by safety, first, and then try to use the absolute least manipulation I can after that... but I also count manipulating myself in that equation, or it wouldn't work.

Sylectra Darwin: I guess I try to lean toward the objective but then you run the risk of trying to ignore the emotional value inherent in the relationship.

Squee: Insanity: A perfectly rational response to an insane world.

Adelene Dawner giggles. "Yes, Squee, it is ultimately hopeless."

Sylectra Darwin: I have to tell on myself here and admit that fairness actually cannot exist, and that manipulation is always happenng on some level. I know how that sounds. :)

Adelene Dawner nods at Syl. "minimizing it seems to work, though."

Inflatable Core: I need to go hunt someone.

Sylectra Darwin: okie dokie.

Sylectra Darwin: Thanks for listening.

Sylectra Darwin: night, Inflatable.

Adelene Dawner: And manipulating *situations* is a completely different kettle of fish than manipulating people.

Inflatable Core: See ya.

Adelene Dawner: Cya, Core.

Sylectra Darwin: I can see that too, Ade.

Adelene Dawner: (and manipulating situations is not necessarily safer, either. Just different.)

Shawn Varriale: So Sylectra are you basically saying that people are never free from self interest and are therefore always manipulating? Or is that not accurate?

Adelene Dawner: Accurate but tangential, I think.

Adelene Dawner: Being alive involves manipulating people, by its nature.

Sylectra Darwin: Shawn, that is accurate.

Sylectra Darwin: We cannot fully pull ourselves free of the human tendency to work a situation in our own favor.

Adelene Dawner: We just tend to use nicer words for the socially acceptable kinds of manipulations :)

Sylectra Darwin: Sometimes our manipulation is as simple as a smile. Other times it's more nefarious, like threats to withhold love or twisting a version of events.

Adelene Dawner thinks: Setting boundaries, cutting a deal, negotiating, compromise...

Adelene Dawner: Most or all social interactions involve manipulation in some way or another... in fact we seem to *require* some forms of it, to *survive*... babies can die of social deprivation if it's severe enough.

Aisha Heaney: <--- are severely touch-deprived

Adelene Dawner nudges Aisha... yes?

Sylectra Darwin: I know I start to wither if I don't get a hug every 12 hours.

Shawn Varriale: lol

Sylectra Darwin: grins

Sylectra Darwin: My dog is fun to hug if I don't have my guy around.

Aisha Heaney curl up with their catbird. ^.^

Adelene Dawner: ^.^

Adelene Dawner is gonna have to get that guest bedroom set up. ^.^

Sylectra Darwin: good plan.

Aisha Heaney: Ade wants us to visit lots

Adelene Dawner: mmhmm ^.^

Sylectra Darwin: Well guys, I am getting the sleepies so I must depart, but feel free to stay and chat.

Adelene Dawner: ok, Syl

Aisha Heaney: Ade-- our body is demanding we put it horizontal

Aisha Heaney: We'll be back on yim in a few?

Adelene Dawner: I donno how much more awake I have, but, for a little while anyway.

Aisha Heaney: go sleep then.... :)