2009.01.17 13:00 - Dreams, meditation, everything in between

Aurora Kitaj was guardian. Within minutes of her arriving, Zen, Friend and Allan arrived. It was Zen's first visit to PaB. The session began with greetings and Zen being informed about the meetings and shown the wiki http://playasbeing.wik.is/

Aurora Kitaj: thanks for coming along to PaB http://playasbeing.wik.is/ here's the wiki and just so you know there are 4 sessions a day every day and they are recorded
Aurora Kitaj: and posted up on the wiki
Aurora Kitaj: http://playasbeing.wik.is/
Aurora Kitaj: the sessions are open to all and discussion can range quite widely
Aurora Kitaj: depending on what participants feel is important at the tim
Zen Arado: ok
Aurora Kitaj: Hi Allan, come and join us
Zen Arado: Hi Allan
Friend Oliva: Hi, Allan
Allan Whiteberry: Hi Everyone
Aurora Kitaj: Is this your first session Allan and Zen? I know that Friend was here last week
Zen Arado: Yes
Allan Whiteberry: No, I have been before
Zen Arado: I usually go to Zen meetings
Zen Arado: or conversation cafe
Aurora Kitaj: I'm afraid that my chat isn't coming out in the order that I'm typing it lol
Aurora Kitaj: so don't be suprised if it sounds a bit disjointed

Scath arrived

Zen Arado: ther's Scathach
Aurora Kitaj: ;-)))
Zen Arado: Hi Scath
Aurora Kitaj: Hi Scath
Aurora Kitaj: nice to see you again
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Friend, Allan
Allan Whiteberry: Hello Scathach
Friend Oliva: Hello, Scathach nice to see you
Aurora Kitaj: now once members have decided on a topic, we try to stick to that, but there's no point in waiting in silence until more people arrive
Aurora Kitaj: so is there anything on people's minds that you would like to discuss?
Aurora Kitaj: Zen, you often go to Zen meetings
Zen Arado: yes
Friend Oliva: Is dreams a good topic?
Aurora Kitaj: or conversation cafe
Zen Arado: I'm a practicing zen buddhist
Aurora Kitaj: I don't know these can you say anything about them?
Zen Arado: yeah sure
Zen Arado: baout what?
Aurora Kitaj: Sorry Scath, my chat is coming out at different times to when I type it lol
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Zen Arado: lag
Aurora Kitaj: yes
Aurora Kitaj: dream is a great topic
Zen Arado: about zen Aurora?
Zen Arado: or dreams?
Friend Oliva: I'm open for all topics...but do you all like to talk abouts dreams?
Zen Arado: sure
Scathach Rhiadra: yes, dreams are interesting:)
Friend Oliva: Do you remember your dreams...I guess Zen you do?
Zen Arado: sometimes
Zen Arado: usually only the ones before I wake
Zen Arado: and they fade quickly
Friend Oliva: when I meditate I can better remember my dreams
Zen Arado: oh
Friend Oliva: Are dreams sort of real?
Zen Arado: no and I think life is a dream too
Zen Arado: largely
Aurora Kitaj: how depressing... sorry lol
Zen Arado: a waking dream
Friend Oliva: me too, Zen
Zen Arado: why Aurora?
Aurora Kitaj: so I'm going through all this ***** in rl and it's a dream
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Zen Arado: why shoud that be depressing?
Zen Arado: :)
Scathach Rhiadra: but a very realistic dream:)
Friend Oliva: ...yes, a very realistic dream
Zen Arado: we are fooled by it
Aurora Kitaj: well perhaps it isn't but my life and my children's well being depends on playing the day which I can handle,
Friend Oliva: by dreams or by life?
Aurora Kitaj: but if it's not even real what's the point in going to work? Having children?
Aurora Kitaj: *playing the game
Zen Arado: but there is an underlying reality
Aurora Kitaj: oh
Friend Oliva: ...yes, I think so too, Zen
Friend Oliva: There must be a realitiy behind it
Aurora Kitaj: this is really interesting
Scathach Rhiadra: and we have to fully engage with it, to live
Zen Arado: do you feel bad if you have a bad dream for a long time?
Aurora Kitaj: I have such a literal understanding of these ideas
Zen Arado: on waking
Zen Arado: anyone?
Aurora Kitaj: I cannot seem to get my head around them ;-)
Friend Oliva: Yes, Zen I had actually this night a bad dream
Scathach Rhiadra: yes, I have often woken up and felt 'disturbed', for want of a better word
Zen Arado: I used to as well
Friend Oliva: And I feld depressed afterwards
Zen Arado: it's becouse we take them too seriously i think
Zen Arado: they are only thoughts
Zen Arado: agree?
Friend Oliva: When I'm dreaming it is real, that's
Friend Oliva: why I get upset about it
Zen Arado: because we hold onto it
Friend Oliva: ...it effects my nerviose system
Zen Arado: instead of letting it go
Zen Arado: agree?
Scathach Rhiadra: and the same for the waking dream?
Zen Arado: ah ha yes Scath
Zen Arado: thats what I think
Scathach Rhiadra: clinging to our perceptions, instead of letting go
Zen Arado: we take our thoughts too seriously
Zen Arado: yes thoughts are useful but they are just thoughts
Friend Oliva: but it is fun to keep to your thoughts, Zen
Zen Arado: we shouldnt let ourselves get tossed around by them
Zen Arado: oh ye true Friend
Scathach Rhiadra: easier said than done:)
Allan Whiteberry: is your "self" different from "you"?
Zen Arado: yes thats where we nedd meditation
Allan Whiteberry: Your thoughts are part of you
Zen Arado: I'm sorry Im putting Buddhist ideas across
Zen Arado: or new age ones
Zen Arado: oh yes
Zen Arado: you can't stop thinking
Scathach Rhiadra: well, how would you define 'self' and 'you', allan?
Allan Whiteberry: They are the same
Friend Oliva: Aurora, have we lost you...I'm sorry, if the topic doesn't suite you
Zen Arado: have you heard of lucid dreaming?
Aurora Kitaj: no
Allan Whiteberry: vaguely
Friend Oliva: What are these?
Zen Arado: it is Toltec wisdom
Zen Arado: Carlos Castenada
Aurora Kitaj: no sorry friend it suits me fine.. it's my kids
Allan Whiteberry: Is lucid dreaming when you realize it is a dream?
Aurora Kitaj: taking me away for a second
Zen Arado: the old shaman don uan taught how to stay lucid when dreaming
Friend Oliva: Are your kids not sleeping yet?
Scathach Rhiadra: ah, like waking in a dream
Zen Arado: yes Allan
Aurora Kitaj: ;-(
Zen Arado: you can be awake and control the dream
Friend Oliva: :-)
Aurora Kitaj: they're in bed lol
Zen Arado: :)
Allan Whiteberry: That happents to me usually just before I wake up
Friend Oliva: Okay, controling dreams
Zen Arado: there is a technique
Zen Arado: you concentrate on one hand if I remember correctly
Zen Arado: I'm not sure what good it does though :)
Aurora Kitaj: listens
Friend Oliva: It would be fun, at least
Zen Arado: do any of you put importance on dreams?
Zen Arado: think they reveal things?
Aurora Kitaj: I try not to
Friend Oliva: Yes, but I don't interpretate them.
Aurora Kitaj: I'm afraid, because I tell my kids not to take nightmares seriously
Zen Arado: exactly Aouora
Friend Oliva: e.g. if my life is good, my dreams are also good...normally
Scathach Rhiadra: apart from sort of organising your experiences from the day, I wouldn't put any importance to them
Zen Arado: don't we often dream about things that are going on in our lives?
Aurora Kitaj: yes, but as children, I expect we all experienced very nasty nightmares
Friend Oliva: Yes, Zen
Aurora Kitaj: how to do interpret these, I thought it was about learning
Aurora Kitaj: because learning can be painfult
Friend Oliva: Dreams have alot to do with the subconsiuosnes
Friend Oliva: sorry, for my english
Zen Arado: sorry ive just invited a friend

Boone arrived and was greeted

Zen Arado: Hi Boone
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Boone:)
Friend Oliva: Hi, Boone
Zen Arado: we are talking about dreams
Boone Enoch: HI Zen, Scathach, everyone:)
Zen Arado: don't analysts still use dreams ?
Aurora Kitaj: Hello boone, nice to see you... please take a seat
Zen Arado: in their practice?
Aurora Kitaj: Let me give you an idea about what we are discussing today
Scathach Rhiadra: I believe some of them do
Aurora Kitaj: dreams
Friend Oliva: Do you remember your dreams, Boone?
Boone Enoch: I did when I was younger, not so much now.
Boone Enoch: more fragmented now.
Zen Arado: they often express fears I think
Zen Arado: anybody have recurrent dreams?
Scathach Rhiadra: does anyone think time seems to be different in dreams?
Friend Oliva: Not always...I dream about everyday stuff
Zen Arado: yes Scath
Friend Oliva: Yes, Scath time goes by much slower in dreams
Friend Oliva: the worldly time...I mean
Scathach Rhiadra: yes, that is what I find
Zen Arado: I dream I am flying
Zen Arado: very often
Friend Oliva: great
Zen Arado: now I can!
Friend Oliva: It must be a nice feeling, Zen
Zen Arado: yes in SL I mean
Aurora Kitaj: Very freudian
Zen Arado: or I dream about old work anxieties
Zen Arado: some of them from 40 years ago!
Aurora Kitaj: giggles
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Aurora Kitaj: when you were a baby?
Zen Arado: thanks Aurora!
Boone Enoch: I've had dreams about having exams in college and being unprepared for them.
Zen Arado: yes me too
Friend Oliva: ...and were you unprepared?
Boone Enoch: anxiety attacts.
Aurora Kitaj: humiliation at work is a classic
Boone Enoch: yes, in the dreams I hadn't been to class in weeks and didn't even know what the subject was.
Zen Arado: yes happened to me to
Friend Oliva: yes, that that the subconsiosness fears comes in dreams up front
Aurora Kitaj: perhaps we were all at the same virtual college lol
Friend Oliva: Last night it was the same with me
Zen Arado: old anxieties seem very common for dreams
Zen Arado: Oh?
Zen Arado: maybe we bury them and they need to be worked out?
Zen Arado: or faced anyway
Boone Enoch: given a context?
Boone Enoch: or they need to be put into a context?
Zen Arado: maybe thats waht dreams do
Friend Oliva: I think our subconsciousnes has alot with dreams to do
Scathach Rhiadra: going back to the ooint about our waking lives being a dream...
Scathach Rhiadra: has anybody read or heard the chinese story of the butterfly's Dream?
Zen Arado: no ?
Friend Oliva: no, Scath
Zen Arado: please tell
Boone Enoch: butterfly dreamed it was a man?
Scathach Rhiadra: I read it when I was a child and it really affected me
Scathach Rhiadra: yes, Boone, a man had a dream one night, that he was a butterfly..
Friend Oliva: Kafka
Scathach Rhiadra: the dream was so realistic, he lived the butterfly's whole life
Scathach Rhiadra: and in the morning, he could not decide if he had dreamed of being a butterfly, or if his life was a butterfly's dream
Friend Oliva: I guess, that's what Zen ment
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Zen Arado: yes how do we know this isn't a dream?
Friend Oliva: What is life, anyway
Scathach Rhiadra: well, we can't prove it:)
Zen Arado: for most of us it is maybe
Zen Arado: we are immersed in our version of reality which is really just a dream?
Aurora Kitaj: now that sounds pretty depressing to me to... about the man who thought he might be a butterfly
Zen Arado: don't see where the depression comes in Aurora?
Aurora Kitaj: not unless you are married to him
Aurora Kitaj: sorry to be negative
Scathach Rhiadra: hmm, he thought his life might be a dream, not necessarily that he might be a butterfly
Aurora Kitaj: oh
Zen Arado: no ust trying to see the connection
Zen Arado: it might be that everything is a waste of time if it is just a dream?
Scathach Rhiadra: at least that is what I took from the story, I probably didn't tell it completly
Friend Oliva: Why is dreaming a waste of time? It is not
Aurora Kitaj: yes, but one of the things that makes animals and humans what they are is that they constantly strive all their lives
Friend Oliva: What else would we do, or should we do?
Aurora Kitaj: to reproduce or to protect themseves,
Zen Arado: if life is a dream it is pointless?
Aurora Kitaj: why would they do it if it is a waste of time?
Friend Oliva: What point? What aim?
Friend Oliva: There seems not to be an aim
Zen Arado: but if you start to think it is just a dream
Boone Enoch: that's what our biology programmed us to do.
Aurora Kitaj: living makes us what we are, into these highly evolved organisms
Zen Arado: existensonalism?
Aurora Kitaj: striving, fighting whatever you like to call it
Friend Oliva: and love
Aurora Kitaj: now here's where I get confused, wondering if love is just a construct
Zen Arado: aren't there 2 tpes of dreams?
Friend Oliva: but it is a nice construct
Aurora Kitaj: what role does it perform?
Zen Arado: rem sleep
Aurora Kitaj: but we are talking about dreams
Zen Arado: no maybe dreams only occur in REM sleep?
Aurora Kitaj: not sure
Friend Oliva: life can be nice, dreams can be nice...our life is always about feeling
Aurora Kitaj: yes, if only it was like that all the time
Zen Arado: are daydreams god?
Scathach Rhiadra: and we have to live our lives, be engaged, even if we realise it is not the ultimate reality
Boone Enoch: our minds have a need to put things into narratives.
Friend Oliva: Daydreams can be dangerious
Zen Arado: yes Boone
Aurora Kitaj: yes
Aurora Kitaj: they can raise false expectations
Zen Arado: yes they take us away from facing reality
Friend Oliva: Right, you two
Zen Arado: I did a lot of that when I was a kid
Aurora Kitaj: me too
Friend Oliva: They disconnect us in a way from the flow of what is going on in RL
Friend Oliva: I do it still today
Zen Arado: yes that is what we are all doing is it not?
Boone Enoch: and wind up feeling alienated.
Aurora Kitaj: I don't need to worry about dreams or daydreams these days, too tired, too busy for either
Zen Arado: that's why they talk about 'awakening' in Buddhism
Boone Enoch: yes
Friend Oliva: Aurora, you need a vacation ;-)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Zen Arado: yes Aurora
Aurora Kitaj: thank you guys
Zen Arado: everyone is too busy!
Aurora Kitaj: yes
Friend Oliva: We love you...you know
Zen Arado: 'what is this life so full of care...
Zen Arado: no time to stop and stare
Friend Oliva: Kapitalism!
Zen Arado: maybe
Friend Oliva: Yes, we need a different system
Friend Oliva: one that suits us better
Aurora Kitaj: Isn't it the sweat and grime, the shattered nerves, the twisted synew that keep us healthy and alive?
Scathach Rhiadra: but also the good things?
Zen Arado: too much stress
Aurora Kitaj: If we have too much time to sit around, we loose out?
Aurora Kitaj: Isn't this what we are designed for?
Aurora Kitaj: evolved?
Friend Oliva: We could use that time, to do something whorthwhile
Scathach Rhiadra: we also have the capacity to appreciate, all that appears to us in living
Zen Arado: there was a news story on Facebook yesterday.
Aurora Kitaj: But doing something worthwhile might result in sweat an stress and shattered nerves too?
Zen Arado: about a great violinist called Joshua Bell
Friend Oliva: no
Aurora Kitaj: true Scath
Zen Arado: can I tell this story?
Friend Oliva: Aurora, if we do things in a
Scathach Rhiadra: please do:)
Aurora Kitaj: please do
Friend Oliva: slower way than it is not
Zen Arado: anyway the great violinist stood in a subway in Washington
Zen Arado: and played Bach on a stradivarius

Samuel arrived at this point; it was his first time at PaB. Aurora supplied the wiki, explained the ground rules and sought agreement for Samuel’s name to be recorded.

Aurora Kitaj: Hello Samuel, please come and join us
Aurora Kitaj: here take as seat
Zen Arado: and hardly anyone even noticed him!
Friend Oliva: Hi, Samuel
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Samuel
Samuel Okelly: hello every1 :)
Zen Arado: what does that say about the waking dream?
Aurora Kitaj: Samuel, we are talking about dreams today
Friend Oliva: We are all somewhere else, Zen
Zen Arado: exactly
Zen Arado: we are so un indful of what is going on around us
Zen Arado: unmindful
Friend Oliva: Zen, did you try to be in the here and now?
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: that's why I practice meditation
Friend Oliva: I tried it too, but there is a little problem
Zen Arado: what?
Friend Oliva: I need to manage my everyday life and
Friend Oliva: I need to think!
Zen Arado: meditation does not prevent thought
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Boone Enoch: yes
Friend Oliva: I mean, at work I have to do heavy thinking...about
Friend Oliva: how to manage my family
Zen Arado: of course
Friend Oliva: I have to do heavy thinking
Zen Arado: but you do your thinking then come back to the present!
Friend Oliva: Yes, I try, but as you know
Friend Oliva: if you start to get involved
Friend Oliva: with that, it gets harder and harder
Friend Oliva: to let loose
Zen Arado: you ust keep trying it takes practice
Zen Arado: thats all meditation is
Friend Oliva: And what is so great about a clear mind, anyway?
Zen Arado: you keep bring your mind back when it wanders
Boone Enoch: the idea is not to achieve a blank slate.
Friend Oliva: Meditation is like walking out on life, or?
Zen Arado: no it is coming back to your life
Boone Enoch: it's to learn to let go of thoughts and not be enthralled to them
Scathach Rhiadra: waking up to life:)
Zen Arado: yes
Friend Oliva: if I stop thinking?
Scathach Rhiadra: but you don't stop thinking
Zen Arado: no you don't stop thinking!!!!!
Zen Arado: you can't
Zen Arado: that is what brains do
Boone Enoch: yes
Friend Oliva: if my mind is very quiet...how do you call it?
Zen Arado: sometimes it is quiet
Zen Arado: sometimes it is busy
Zen Arado: you just notice it
Friend Oliva: isn't meditation all about "no thoughts"?
Zen Arado: and come back to waht you are concentrating on
Zen Arado: usually the breath
Friend Oliva: or your nose
Boone Enoch: no it's being aware or the coming and going of thoughts.
Zen Arado: your thoughts will quiten though
Boone Enoch: and learning not to be carried away by them.
Zen Arado: but you don't try to force it
Aurora Kitaj: Hi Claire, nice to see you ... here come and take a seat
Friend Oliva: Hello
Aurora Kitaj: We're talking about dreams... meditation
Zen Arado: Hi Claire
Aurora Kitaj: today
Friend Oliva: For me life gets boring, when I'm not thinking.
Aurora Kitaj: I can send you a chat log, but it's pretty long,
Aurora Kitaj: you might prefer to just go with the flow... but happy to send note card if this owuld help
Zen Arado: your thinking makes you unmindful of the richness of life though perhaps
Zen Arado: like the people rushing around in the subway
Zen Arado: and not seeing the beauty around them
Boone Enoch: you're somewhere else, not there.
Friend Oliva: ...in an underground, e.g., Zen?
Zen Arado: yes :)
Friend Oliva: not in Frankfurt
Zen Arado: or the Tube Aurora
Aurora Kitaj: yes
Scathach Rhiadra: when you learn to be aware of your thoughts and not go following them, you can be mech more centred for when you have to concentrate on thinking, if that makes sense:)
Friend Oliva: Yes, Scath
Friend Oliva: and meditation is more healthy
Aurora Kitaj: Yes, Scath
Samuel Okelly: does anyone know if I am I right in thinking that the goal of Buddhist meditation is to "free the mind" of everything?
Zen Arado: there is no goal
Boone Enoch: brb
Friend Oliva: Yes, Samuel, I think so too
Zen Arado: it's getting away from seeking goals
Zen Arado: at least thats my understanding of zen
Zen Arado: its just being
Zen Arado: not doing
Samuel Okelly: maybe a poor choice of words on my part.., i only meant to infer purpose and objective
Friend Oliva: Isn't the opposite of what we are doing, Zen...seeking to reach goals?
Scathach Rhiadra: or some Buddhists see the goal as trying to achieve an awakened mind:)
Zen Arado: its hard to put inot words
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Zen Arado: but if you strive hard after a goal it can get further away from you
Friend Oliva: ...interesting
Zen Arado: because thats the way we normally behave
Zen Arado: its more about letting go
Friend Oliva: ...like looking at an experiment an messing it up
Aurora Kitaj: this is facinating, and I'm really trying hard to follow, but clearly my mind needs so training in this areas
Samuel Okelly: i fail to understand how it is possible to achieve such a state of mind that is free of thought (other than a state of deep clinical unconsciousness)
Zen Arado: it really takes meditation practice not logical thought
Friend Oliva: ...inner silence and concentration...hard to achive
Samuel Okelly: so such activity concedes that it is in itself not a logical pursuit?
Scathach Rhiadra: hmmm, a state of awareness is not really unconcious
Boone Enoch: back
Zen Arado: wb
Aurora Kitaj: wb Boone
Boone Enoch: thx
Scathach Rhiadra: wb
Zen Arado: you have to practice not think
Zen Arado: it isn't an intellectual understanding
Friend Oliva: Meditation is a very nice feeling
Zen Arado: thats what I mean
Zen Arado: yes but things can come up
Friend Oliva: it is worthwile
Zen Arado: that are unpleasant
Zen Arado: from your past
Samuel Okelly: Isn’t that a contradiction as "to practice" would seem to imply a conscious effort to do something eg think in a certain way?
Zen Arado: sorry if I am pushing this Aurora
Boone Enoch: practice in a sense of commitment to it.
Friend Oliva: ...had anyone seen things in a window that were not there`? Zen, you?
Aurora Kitaj: np Zen
Boone Enoch: ongoing commitment.
Zen Arado: we all see according to our conditioning
Zen Arado: I don't think we all se the same reality
Friend Oliva: ...after meditation. e.g. or when we wake up...
Samuel Okelly: yet such a commitment would by its very nature surely be a conscious commiment no?
Friend Oliva: I have seen fishes
Zen Arado: some people have great visions
Zen Arado: others see nothing
Zen Arado: zen teachers tell you that great experiences are ust imagination
Aurora Kitaj: is this like near death experiences?
Zen Arado: it is the ordinary here and now that is miraculous
Friend Oliva: Isn't life a dream, anyway?
Aurora Kitaj: can they tell us anything about the workings ofthe human mind?
Zen Arado: I don't know Aurora
Zen Arado: for most of us yes I think
Zen Arado: you study the mind from inside
Friend Oliva: Yes
Boone Enoch: it helps to discover what motivates us.
Friend Oliva: ...and that our mind takes something for
Friend Oliva: reality
Friend Oliva: that isn't
Zen Arado: yes
Aurora Kitaj: facinating
Friend Oliva: ...but what is behind life?
Friend Oliva: the 1 mio. question?
Zen Arado: who knows?
Friend Oliva: I would like to know
Boone Enoch: it just is.
Aurora Kitaj: evolution?
Friend Oliva: Yes, evolution
Zen Arado: no harm in wondering and investigating
Zen Arado: thats our nature
Friend Oliva: But it is crasy
Friend Oliva: we all work and live
Friend Oliva: and don't now why
Friend Oliva: Most of us even
Friend Oliva: forget or never realise
Friend Oliva: that is isn't all
Samuel Okelly: A similarly interesting question for me is how do we “know” anything? how do we justify even to ourselves what is true and valid belief?
Friend Oliva: I think, therefor I am
Zen Arado: that's a big area in philosophy Samuel -- epistemology
Samuel Okelly: solispsism does really answer that though does it?
Zen Arado: does it?
Friend Oliva: Maybe we are god...who is dreaming all this?
Samuel Okelly: maybe
Zen Arado: metaphysical speculation
Zen Arado: a lot of it is a waste of time I think
Samuel Okelly: by what process do each of us here judge our beliefs to be valid?
Scathach Rhiadra: ah, what is solispism?
Friend Oliva: ...the father, the holy gost and Jesus
Aurora Kitaj: Ah, Gilles is just on line, perhaps we should invite to discuss the finer points in that area
Zen Arado: what are beliefs?
Samuel Okelly: it is the premis that all we can ever know is "the self"
Scathach Rhiadra: ty:)
Boone Enoch: the belief that you as a conscious being is the only thing that yu can be certain that exists.
Samuel Okelly: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/solipsism
Zen Arado: I don't believe there is a 'self'
Friend Oliva: Yes and no, Zen. Maybe it
Friend Oliva: is a question of definition
Zen Arado: where is it?
Samuel Okelly: even if we do not require absolute certainty... how do we justify to ourselves our beliefs to valid and just
Zen Arado: I don't believe in beliefs :)
Zen Arado: they are just frozen opinions
Zen Arado: sory I am getting too zen!
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Scathach Rhiadra: our felt experiences are all we have to go on
Aurora Kitaj: One cannot get too Zen Zen!
Zen Arado: ha ha
Boone Enoch: :)
Samuel Okelly: Zen, can you explain the purpose of such grammatical contradictions such as “i” don’t believe in the “self”… and I don’t believe in beliefs…..?
Zen Arado: no
Zen Arado: show me the self
Samuel Okelly: i see :)
Zen Arado: it doesnt exist
Friend Oliva: the self is a construct
Samuel Okelly: you dont believe in you?
Zen Arado: even in philosophy
Friend Oliva: Yes, i believe in me...but what does it say?
Zen Arado: 'I' am ust a bunch of mental and physical processes
Scathach Rhiadra: some would say there is no fixed, inherently existant self that is independant of everything else
Zen Arado: exactly
Samuel Okelly: "just" a bunch of porocesses? implying no value or worth?
Boone Enoch: yes, Scathach
Zen Arado: the worth is what you attach to this bunch of processes
Friend Oliva: Our self is a representative of our subconsciousness
Samuel Okelly: that is precisely my point... why add "just" a bunch of processes?
Scathach Rhiadra: the interrelatedness and interdependance gives everything worth
Aurora Kitaj: Hello Tenk, nice to see you again
Zen Arado: to distinguish from some mysterious unchanging thing
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Tenk
Friend Oliva: Hello Tenk
Zen Arado: that is often implied by 'self'
Samuel Okelly: that would imply that "our self" is NOT representative of our consciousness
Aurora Kitaj: we are talking about dreams and meditation, but the conversation is 'wide-ranging'
Zen Arado: I do not see the connection?
Tenk Kidd: Thank you for inviting me - I'll sit quiet and listen :)
Aurora Kitaj: You know that these discussions are recorded on a chat log
Zen Arado: with the subconscious?
Aurora Kitaj: and posted on the PaB wiki, so if you want to stay anonymous, please let me know.
Aurora Kitaj: Np Tenk
Aurora Kitaj: ^^
Zen Arado: no self is a tenet of Buddhism
Zen Arado: I also studied it in phiosophy
Zen Arado: it is calle 'personal identity' there
Zen Arado: a belief? I don't know
Samuel Okelly: isnt that simply a form of extreme nuhilism?
Zen Arado: if you look for it you can't find it
Samuel Okelly: nihilism
Zen Arado: why?
Zen Arado: this bunch of processes still gets great enjoyment out of life
Samuel Okelly: if "no self is a tenet of Buddhism" then that would , by defination, correspond to nihilism http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/nihilism
Zen Arado: nihilism is a kind of despair to my mind
Friend Oliva: it's the opposite of nihilism
Samuel Okelly: Philosophy. a. an extreme form of skepticism: the denial of all real existence or the possibility of an objective basis for truth. b. nothingness or nonexistence.
Zen Arado: everything is meaningless?
Scathach Rhiadra: ah, but saying there is no inherently existing self, is not the samwe as saying nothing exists
Zen Arado: why does no self equate to that?
Scathach Rhiadra: same*
Zen Arado: yes Scath
Samuel Okelly: no self" = "nothingness"
Friend Oliva: no
Boone Enoch: no, Samuel
Zen Arado: no the processes are still there
Scathach Rhiadra: no, our idea of a fixed self does not exist
Zen Arado: yes its the 'fixed' part that is wrong
Zen Arado: I think
Scathach Rhiadra thinks that did not come out right:)
Boone Enoch: a self that is permanent and unchanging point of reference does not exits.
Zen Arado: yes
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Samuel Okelly: but when you bang your finger in the door it is "you" that feels the a unique physical pain (as opposed tp a shared experience)
Zen Arado: we are changing every moment
Zen Arado: along with everything else
Aurora Kitaj: listens
Boone Enoch: pain exists.
Zen Arado: there is a pain
Friend Oliva: ...like SL exists
Zen Arado: but is always changing
Scathach Rhiadra: is my 'self' the same self that existed five minutes ago?
Aurora Kitaj: Hello Bobby, please feel free to come and join us, come and take a seat..
Zen Arado: no
Aurora Kitaj: ;)
Samuel Okelly: to say something changes, either in part or in whole, is not the same as saying that it does not exist
Scathach Rhiadra: exactly
Samuel Okelly: because "the self" changes is not reason of itself to deny its existence
Zen Arado: or that it does exist
Scathach Rhiadra: but if have an idea that our self is non-changing and think of it as such..
Zen Arado: there is no self TO change !
Boone Enoch: there is no "fixed" you.
Boone Enoch: everything is in flux.
Samuel Okelly: a similar argument has been applied the notion of "time" eg there is no "now"
Friend Oliva: ...but I do always the same mistakes
Zen Arado: I don't understand time
Scathach Rhiadra: or no past or future , just 'now'?
Zen Arado: we put a construction on it
Zen Arado: a linear one
Zen Arado: but thats ust our construction isn't it?
Aurora Kitaj: heard that
Aurora Kitaj: very interesting about the absence of time
Aurora Kitaj: or flexible time
Zen Arado: doesn't relativity change that?
Samuel Okelly: the same is argument is used to suggest that what has been nolonger exists, what will be has not existed and trying ti pinpoint the "now" as a fixed unit or variable is impossible
Samuel Okelly: relativity has explained that i think
Boone Enoch: thanks for the discussion. very interesting but I have to log.
Boone Enoch: Good bye everyone.
Friend Oliva: Night, Boone
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Boone
Zen Arado: ok bye Boone
Zen Arado: see you again
Zen Arado: maybe I should go too
Zen Arado: how long do these meetings last Aurora?
Friend Oliva: I have to leave soon, too.
Scathach Rhiadra: normally only 1 hour, this has been a marathon:)
Samuel Okelly: :)
Zen Arado: :)
Aurora Kitaj: usually an hour
Samuel Okelly: thank you for the interesting points every1 :)
Aurora Kitaj: so we've gone on over the time. Could reasonalbely
Aurora Kitaj: wind up now if ppl agree
Zen Arado: yes thanks everyone
Zen Arado: sure
Friend Oliva: Thanks to you all
Aurora Kitaj: Thanks everyone for making this such an incredibly informative session
Scathach Rhiadra: yes, thank you everyone, for the great discussion:)
Samuel Okelly: tc every1 :)
Aurora Kitaj: especially to those who are visiitng for the first time
Scathach Rhiadra: namasté
Aurora Kitaj: Tenk, Samuel,
Samuel Okelly: see you all again soon! cheerio for now :)
Aurora Kitaj: Bye all
Zen Arado: sure bye all
Friend Oliva: Have a nice day
Friend Oliva: Do are always doing a good job, Aurora
Aurora Kitaj: Thank you Friend... you are too kind

Discussion finishes, farewells are said, ppl leave