2009.01.11 13:00 - Phenomenology and PaB

The guardian for this discussion was Maxine Walden and all the comments are hers.  Scathach added some chat at the end of the conversation which did not receive comments.

Maxine Walden: hi Neela
Neela Blaisdale: Hi Maxine, Scatch
Maxine Walden: hi Scatch
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Neela, Maxine
Maxine Walden: how are you both today?
Neela Blaisdale: Good, ty
Scathach Rhiadra: me also good ty
Scathach Rhiadra: how are you Maxine?
Maxine Walden: oh, thanks, I am also well, use the weekend to  
sort of relax and catch up
Maxine Walden: and try to learn the wiki for the pheno reports

We seem then to begin what will be interweaving strands of thought about the phenomenology experiments several are undertaking.

Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Neela Blaisdale: I was away for a few weeks, so much going on  
here!
Maxine Walden: ah, tell us your perceptions, Neela, what  
seems new?
Scathach Rhiadra: I think Alfred has been making things  
easier for posting reports
Maxine Walden: yes, Scatch, I have gathered that.
Neela Blaisdale: Oh, the scribes, phenom sessions...
Maxine Walden: yes, that is a lot to come back to; do you  
feel 'on board' with these new things, Neela?

The ever-constant issue of enough time

Neela Blaisdale: No.... the problem is finding the the time  
to catch up!
Neela Blaisdale: I'm always in awe of the amount people do  
herre in SL
Maxine Walden: oh, right, I know a lot about that, ie time to  
catch up; I often feel I don't have the time and i have not been away!
Neela Blaisdale: with work and family...
Scathach Rhiadra: yes, and in so short a time:)
Neela Blaisdale: there are so many things I'd like to to!

Neela does a little dance which she then mentions was not intended

Neela Blaisdale: whooops, have to get rid of that trigger
Maxine Walden: (nice little dance, one of excitement or ...?)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Neela Blaisdale: no accident, whenever I say G....O
Neela Blaisdale: have to somehow search for it now in the  
inventory to take it off
Maxine Walden: ...so many things to look after
Neela Blaisdale: :)

Returning to the phenomenology experiments seems of value and we realize that Neela who has been away is not fully aware of them so part of the braided discussion involves explanation of the experiments

Maxine Walden: Scatch, how are the pheno experiments going?  
You seem to be giving a lot of focus to them
Scathach Rhiadra: well' I'm finding them very interesting
Scathach Rhiadra: very good for my practice, which surprised  
me a bit:)
Neela Blaisdale: what are the experiments Scath?
Scathach Rhiadra: switching or dropping the subject/object  
roles
Scathach Rhiadra: its very difficult to not be the subject of  
your experiences. and be 'seen' as an object
Scathach Rhiadra: withour trying to move your location, or  
your conciousness to an abject
Maxine Walden: hi, Tarmel
Neela Blaisdale: Hello Tarmel, nice to meet you don't think  
we've met
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Tarmel:)
Tarmel Udimo: hi everyone
Tarmel Udimo: :-)
Maxine Walden: we are talking about the pheno experiements;  
Neela is back from being away an not familiar with them
Tarmel Udimo: okay

Another strand is whether we have posted our most recent experiment reports

Tarmel Udimo: I haven't posted my latest one yet
Scathach Rhiadra: neither have I:)
Tarmel Udimo: I had to leave the meeting how did it go
Tarmel Udimo: glad to know i'm not alone there scath
Maxine Walden: Neela, the first experiement began with  
looking at a spoon or common object, being the seeing subject...and  
then to remain in your own skin but let the spoon 'see' you, be the  
object of the spoon's seeing
Maxine Walden: and the main focus as I understand it, is to  
practice being the object, not the subject, and most of us are finding  
it difficult.
Scathach Rhiadra nods:)
Maxine Walden: My understanding is that we are taking a week  
off from practice 3# in order to master getting the reports on a wiki  
which has been created to 'house' the reports and explorations
Maxine Walden: Is that your understaning Scatch and Tarmel?
Tarmel Udimo: yes
Scathach Rhiadra: yes, so report 3 is now not due until Thurs

And we speak about the new wiki for phenom reports

Neela Blaisdale: Is there a separate wiki for this?
Tarmel Udimo: what was number 3?
Maxine Walden: right, not til Thursday, and am not sure if #3  
is supposed to have a different focus
Scathach Rhiadra: how do you mean?
Scathach Rhiadra: oh, I think we are to focus on what being  
'seen' means
Tarmel Udimo: so continue to do the same exercise?
Scathach Rhiadra: and do the 2(b) experiment
Tarmel Udimo: okay
Maxine Walden: yes, virtually continue the same experiement,  
'being seen'.
Maxine Walden: And what is the address of the wiki, for  
Neela, I do not have it at hand
Scathach Rhiadra: hold on...

Fefonz joins us

Maxine Walden: hi Fefonz
Tarmel Udimo: hi fefonz
Fefonz Quan: Hello everyone :-)
Scathach Rhiadra: it is http://pheno.wik.is/
Neela Blaisdale: Hello Fefonz
Neela Blaisdale: ty Scath
Maxine Walden: thanks, Scath
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Fefonz

Thoughts turn to the most recent phenom meeting on the previous Friday, 2pm SL at Kira cafe.  And it seems that there is general agreement among us of the need to let newcomers know of the level of focus at these meetings.

Tarmel Udimo: I was glad that you spoke up at the beginning  
of the metting suggesting that we keep to the topic maxine ;)
Maxine Walden: Neela, there is a 2pm SL meeting every Friday  
at Kira Cafe for the pheno experiments
Scathach Rhiadra: yes, it was in danger of wandering off into  
speculation:)
Maxine Walden: Oh, thanks Tarmel, it felt important to do so  
as things were going
Maxine Walden: we are referring to Friday's meeting, Neela
Tarmel Udimo: yes I know Pema prefers not to have ground  
rules, but I think out of respect for the group and the sensitivity of  
the material
Tarmel Udimo: that we at least suggest that those attend be  
mindful of why we are there
Maxine Walden: that seems to be a very good point, Tarmel
Scathach Rhiadra agrees
Fefonz Quan nods

Neela brings up a very interesting question, the relationship between the phenom exercises and PaB and her question stirs us all to review our own ideas about the relationship

Neela Blaisdale: Just looking at the wiki, I see the 2 a and  
b experiements. So where is the current PaB practice in all of this? A  
little confusing...
Scathach Rhiadra: its quite separate from PaB
Scathach Rhiadra: although I understand Phenonemology is  
connected to PaB
Maxine Walden: separate and yet not entirely so, from my  
understanding: because reversing roles, surrendering the subject role  
is part of the PaB experience I think
Maxine Walden: I think Pema introduced the 'seeing' and  
'being seen' also as part of 'appearance' as a represenation of Being.  
Is that what others understand?
Tarmel Udimo: yes
Tarmel Udimo: its easy to let the 9sec slide sometimes, this  
is good way of staying connected to why we are here
Fefonz Quan: i thought it is a little extended than the PaB
Fefonz Quan: because it demanded more "active imagination"
Fefonz Quan: like "imagine yourself being seen by the spoon"
Fefonz Quan: while the PaB is more raw, clean and "pure" maybe
Scathach Rhiadra: hmmm, my understanding is that we are not  
to 'imagine' anything, but shift or perspective, so to speak
Tarmel Udimo: yes that is my understanding too
Maxine Walden: I think Pema suggested that I was being too  
active when I was imagining, yes, agreeing with what Scath and Tarmel  
are just saying
Fefonz Quan: i agree, but this "shifting" is somehow doing,  
where the PaB doesn't demand it at all
Maxine Walden: so that makes it even more intriguing: not too  
active, not doing anything out of the ordinary, just switching, but,  
Fefonz I do agree that it does feel different from PaB
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Fefonz Quan: stopping, dropping, seeing and appereciating  
(even the last term i argue is a little doing)
Fefonz Quan: that's for PaB, so i'm with Maxine on that
Scathach Rhiadra: I think Pema said something about pheno  
experiments starting at the other end, looking at phenomema, while PaB  
starts with Being
Tarmel Udimo: perhaps it feels more "raw, clean and "pure"  
because you are used to this perspective

We are joined by someone who is just beginning to explore SL.  Since he did not stay long I have ommitted reference to him, leaving the strand of discussion about PaB and phenom 

Fefonz Quan: no, just because it doesn't demand me to "do"  
anything
Fefonz Quan: and this shift is very doing
Scathach Rhiadra: and we are still only doing the first  
experiments, I amagiane there will be many more, woth different focus
Tarmel Udimo: my understanding is whether subject, object or  
appearance it is all being
Scathach Rhiadra: imagine*
Fefonz Quan: i can swith to seeing by the spoon, or the cat,  
or the wall, or milliion other perspectives, but u have to choose
Fefonz Quan: switch*

Neela has to leave as the discussion remains intense

Neela Blaisdale: Well see you all soon, must
Neela Blaisdale: Bye, have a good night everyone
Fefonz Quan: Bye Neela
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Neela
Tarmel Udimo: so I am curious Fefonz, when you are doing PaB  
you feel like you are doing nothing where as when you do the  
expereiments you are doing 'something"?
Tarmel Udimo: bye Neela
Fefonz Quan: in a sense yes, tarmel
Fefonz Quan: (i tried to show this on the choosing above)
Fefonz Quan: ] Fefonz Quan: i can swith to seeing by  
the spoon, or the cat, or the wall, or milliion other perspectives,  
but u have to choose
Fefonz Quan: and this choice needs to be made - hence doing
Scathach Rhiadra: I think we all had trouble when we were  
trying to 'be' a spoon or other object, so we seem to be focusing on  
just being seen as an object...
Scathach Rhiadra: hmmm:)
Tarmel Udimo: without an understanding of what Pab is
Tarmel Udimo: do you think you are being seen when you are  
doing Pab Fefonz?
Fefonz Quan: seeing by who or by what?
Tarmel Udimo: well in the expereiment we are being seen as an  
object do you feel this could be similar to what you are doing by  
stopping
Fefonz Quan: maybe, and maybe not
Fefonz Quan: surely there is some connection, i don't deny it
Fefonz Quan: but yet i feel these are different approaches
Scathach Rhiadra nods agreement with Fefonz
Tarmel Udimo: although they may be different approaches do  
they have the same result?
Fefonz Quan: i think the term "being seen" needs so much  
explanation
Scathach Rhiadra: but I don't think they were meant to be the  
same approach
Fefonz Quan: and comtemplation by the experimenter
Fefonz Quan: that it is far more philosophical than being
Fefonz Quan: (agree with scathach)
Fefonz Quan: is being and "been smelled" is the same too?
Tarmel Udimo: I think that was my point
Scathach Rhiadra: could 'seen' not mean being perceived or  
experienced
Tarmel Udimo: behind it all is being how we perceive,  
connect , relate see be seen is a way in to being
Scathach Rhiadra: brb
Fefonz Quan: well, everything can be a way into being, we  
just argue that those are two different ways :)
Scathach Rhiadra: back, sorry telephone!

After paying attention and IMing to someone very new to SL who only got confused and distracted from the above discussion, I try to come back to the discussion but am aware that now I feel a bit lost, maybe disoriented.  As the others seem to be at ease I conclude that perhaps I have been a bit de-centered.  With some thought, others suggest that perhaps some of their emotion has crept into the discussion.

Maxine Walden: It may be just me, with my IMing the newcomer and all,  
and thus not attending to the intense discussion here, but is everyone  
feeling OK, or has a bit of tension/dissent crept into the group?
Maxine Walden: Just trying to get a sense of the flow of things
Tarmel Udimo: no i wasn't feeling that
Scathach Rhiadra: no, I don't think so, does anyone else?:)
Fefonz Quan: me neither
Maxine Walden: OK, just my slight disconnection perhaps,  
having to attend to the newbie and not wishing to leave the group
Fefonz Quan: (or was it me with a hint of cynicism sorry for  
that ;-)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Tarmel Udimo: perhaps what you are picking up on was my  
frustration about the pheno group and then this spilled over into  
introducing a new person into Pab :-)

Continuing to feel a bit of my frustration I mention that I will need to leave shortly.

Maxine Walden: But having said that I do need to leave in a  
couple of minutes, to go to another meeting; will take the chatlog but  
if you all continue and wish to send me any further chat I will add it  
to the log
Tarmel Udimo: okay
Scathach Rhiadra: ok Maxine

I wonder about the intense emotions which may be present from the discussion as well as stirred by our individual experiences re PaB and the phenom experiments

Maxine Walden: I think we each have intense experiences here  
and our emotions are very likely to be a part of it
Tarmel Udimo: yes
Fefonz Quan: ?me nods
Scathach Rhiadra: agreed
Fefonz Quan nods
Maxine Walden: OK, I will go now, glad for the meeting, and  
will welcome further chat as we can
Tarmel Udimo: and how quickly we all assumed it had to be us  
that caused the tension when there was none :-)

I then leave and the remainder of the discussion, below, was sent by Scathach.

Tarmel Udimo: bye maxine
Fefonz Quan: bye maxine :)
Fefonz Quan: i like it that emotions are involved here and  
we're not just having some intelectual debate
Scathach Rhiadra: yes, they are very personal experiences we  
are trying to describe:)
Tarmel Udimo: yes
Tarmel Udimo: I do feel being seen is a deeper connection to  
being in a strange way
Scathach Rhiadra: maybe getting to the root of perception, so  
to speak?
Tarmel Udimo: :-)
Tarmel Udimo: yes it allows us to remove a few more layers
Fefonz Quan: i agree that this is an interesting technique
Fefonz Quan: i just felt that though it give some new feel
Fefonz Quan: (though i didn't post my experiment yet:))
Scathach Rhiadra: :))
Tarmel Udimo: smiles
Fefonz Quan: yet, i felt that i need to propel my imagination  
in order to do it
Fefonz Quan: and knowing the tremendous power of the  
imagination in illusions and delusions
Tarmel Udimo: yes?

Fefonz Quan: i find it untrusty
Fefonz Quan: as a starting point
Scathach Rhiadra: hmmm, yes, Ive felt the need to avoid using  
my imagination
Fefonz Quan: (adding layers rather then peeling them, i i may  
say)
Tarmel Udimo: okay now I understand
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Fefonz Quan: :)

Tarmel Udimo: interestingly I felt the opposite stripped of  
layers :-)
Fefonz Quan: for some moments i did too, but i don't trust my  
feeling here :-)
Tarmel Udimo: and yet you trust your Pab expereinces -  
interesting...
Fefonz Quan: experiences i can describe
Fefonz Quan: "feeling stripped" i treat as a conclusion/ 
definition, that might be wrong
Fefonz Quan: (at least metaphorical stripped :-))
Tarmel Udimo: :-)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Tarmel Udimo: and yet experiences are so subjective too
Fefonz Quan: yes. i think i shouldn't stress it further,  
because we kind of agree
Tarmel Udimo: well in a way we are talking about trust
Fefonz Quan: my main point was that the technique of "seeing"  
was more force"non-active action"
Tarmel Udimo: trust in Pab, trust in the expereiment and  
trusting ourselves
Fefonz Quan: thats all
Fefonz Quan: yes, trust is an issue here
Fefonz Quan: i am willing to trust both experiences, and yet  
i can tell they are different experiments setup,for me
Tarmel Udimo: I wasn't trying to disagree with you I was  
trying to undersatnd more clearly what you really meant
Tarmel Udimo: okay
Tarmel Udimo: I understand
Fefonz Quan: and yes, they might conclude in similar results.
Fefonz Quan: So does visualizing complex deities sitting on  
your head, vajrayana wise
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Tarmel Udimo: :-)
Tarmel Udimo: so many people seem to benifit from complex  
deities sitting on their heads :-)
Tarmel Udimo: makes one wander
Fefonz Quan: i nkow some complex people standing on their  
heads :)
Fefonz Quan: know*
Scathach Rhiadra: :))
Tarmel Udimo: grins
Fefonz Quan: yes, we like complex stuff,
Fefonz Quan: it keeps us entertained
Scathach Rhiadra nods:)
Tarmel Udimo: yes we do - well its monday morning for me and  
so as much as I would rather sit and chat I must head back to RL and  
be real... :-)
Fefonz Quan: :)
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Tarmel, namasté
Fefonz Quan: get real tarmel
Tarmel Udimo: can one of you send the log to maxine?
Tarmel Udimo: bye nice talking to you
Fefonz Quan: i'm not sure i have it...
Fefonz Quan: nice talking to you too
Scathach Rhiadra: I will send it to Maxine
Tarmel Udimo is Offline
Fefonz Quan: thanks.
Fefonz Quan: i enjoyed the talk,
Scathach Rhiadra: yes, it was very good, lively:)

Fefonz Quan: and i felt frustrated when not understood and  
relieved when i waws understood
Scathach Rhiadra: ah, yes, it is frustrating thinking you are  
being misunderstood:)
Fefonz Quan: sometimes it seems like so many words are needed  
to explain a single thought
Scathach Rhiadra: and writing a report on what is a few  
moments experience can take me hours:)
Fefonz Quan: :)
Fefonz Quan: i should goto sleep, it's past midnight here...
Fefonz Quan: thanks for the talk
Scathach Rhiadra: thank you, good night, namaste:)

Fefonz Quan: _/!\_
Fefonz Quan: :-)=