2009.01.11 13:00 - Phenomenology and PaB

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    The guardian for this discussion was Maxine Walden and all the comments are hers.  Scathach added some chat at the end of the conversation which did not receive comments.

    Maxine Walden: hi Neela
    Neela Blaisdale: Hi Maxine, Scatch
    Maxine Walden: hi Scatch
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Neela, Maxine
    Maxine Walden: how are you both today?
    Neela Blaisdale: Good, ty
    Scathach Rhiadra: me also good ty
    Scathach Rhiadra: how are you Maxine?
    Maxine Walden: oh, thanks, I am also well, use the weekend to  
    sort of relax and catch up
    Maxine Walden: and try to learn the wiki for the pheno reports

    We seem then to begin what will be interweaving strands of thought about the phenomenology experiments several are undertaking.

    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Neela Blaisdale: I was away for a few weeks, so much going on  
    Maxine Walden: ah, tell us your perceptions, Neela, what  
    seems new?
    Scathach Rhiadra: I think Alfred has been making things  
    easier for posting reports
    Maxine Walden: yes, Scatch, I have gathered that.
    Neela Blaisdale: Oh, the scribes, phenom sessions...
    Maxine Walden: yes, that is a lot to come back to; do you  
    feel 'on board' with these new things, Neela?

    The ever-constant issue of enough time

    Neela Blaisdale: No.... the problem is finding the the time  
    to catch up!
    Neela Blaisdale: I'm always in awe of the amount people do  
    herre in SL
    Maxine Walden: oh, right, I know a lot about that, ie time to  
    catch up; I often feel I don't have the time and i have not been away!
    Neela Blaisdale: with work and family...
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, and in so short a time:)
    Neela Blaisdale: there are so many things I'd like to to!

    Neela does a little dance which she then mentions was not intended

    Neela Blaisdale: whooops, have to get rid of that trigger
    Maxine Walden: (nice little dance, one of excitement or ...?)
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Neela Blaisdale: no accident, whenever I say G....O
    Neela Blaisdale: have to somehow search for it now in the  
    inventory to take it off
    Maxine Walden: ...so many things to look after
    Neela Blaisdale: :)

    Returning to the phenomenology experiments seems of value and we realize that Neela who has been away is not fully aware of them so part of the braided discussion involves explanation of the experiments

    Maxine Walden: Scatch, how are the pheno experiments going?  
    You seem to be giving a lot of focus to them
    Scathach Rhiadra: well' I'm finding them very interesting
    Scathach Rhiadra: very good for my practice, which surprised  
    me a bit:)
    Neela Blaisdale: what are the experiments Scath?
    Scathach Rhiadra: switching or dropping the subject/object  
    Scathach Rhiadra: its very difficult to not be the subject of  
    your experiences. and be 'seen' as an object
    Scathach Rhiadra: withour trying to move your location, or  
    your conciousness to an abject
    Maxine Walden: hi, Tarmel
    Neela Blaisdale: Hello Tarmel, nice to meet you don't think  
    we've met
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Tarmel:)
    Tarmel Udimo: hi everyone
    Tarmel Udimo: :-)
    Maxine Walden: we are talking about the pheno experiements;  
    Neela is back from being away an not familiar with them
    Tarmel Udimo: okay

    Another strand is whether we have posted our most recent experiment reports

    Tarmel Udimo: I haven't posted my latest one yet
    Scathach Rhiadra: neither have I:)
    Tarmel Udimo: I had to leave the meeting how did it go
    Tarmel Udimo: glad to know i'm not alone there scath
    Maxine Walden: Neela, the first experiement began with  
    looking at a spoon or common object, being the seeing subject...and  
    then to remain in your own skin but let the spoon 'see' you, be the  
    object of the spoon's seeing
    Maxine Walden: and the main focus as I understand it, is to  
    practice being the object, not the subject, and most of us are finding  
    it difficult.
    Scathach Rhiadra nods:)
    Maxine Walden: My understanding is that we are taking a week  
    off from practice 3# in order to master getting the reports on a wiki  
    which has been created to 'house' the reports and explorations
    Maxine Walden: Is that your understaning Scatch and Tarmel?
    Tarmel Udimo: yes
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, so report 3 is now not due until Thurs

    And we speak about the new wiki for phenom reports

    Neela Blaisdale: Is there a separate wiki for this?
    Tarmel Udimo: what was number 3?
    Maxine Walden: right, not til Thursday, and am not sure if #3  
    is supposed to have a different focus
    Scathach Rhiadra: how do you mean?
    Scathach Rhiadra: oh, I think we are to focus on what being  
    'seen' means
    Tarmel Udimo: so continue to do the same exercise?
    Scathach Rhiadra: and do the 2(b) experiment
    Tarmel Udimo: okay
    Maxine Walden: yes, virtually continue the same experiement,  
    'being seen'.
    Maxine Walden: And what is the address of the wiki, for  
    Neela, I do not have it at hand
    Scathach Rhiadra: hold on...

    Fefonz joins us

    Maxine Walden: hi Fefonz
    Tarmel Udimo: hi fefonz
    Fefonz Quan: Hello everyone :-)
    Scathach Rhiadra: it is http://pheno.wik.is/
    Neela Blaisdale: Hello Fefonz
    Neela Blaisdale: ty Scath
    Maxine Walden: thanks, Scath
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Fefonz

    Thoughts turn to the most recent phenom meeting on the previous Friday, 2pm SL at Kira cafe.  And it seems that there is general agreement among us of the need to let newcomers know of the level of focus at these meetings.

    Tarmel Udimo: I was glad that you spoke up at the beginning  
    of the metting suggesting that we keep to the topic maxine ;)
    Maxine Walden: Neela, there is a 2pm SL meeting every Friday  
    at Kira Cafe for the pheno experiments
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, it was in danger of wandering off into  
    Maxine Walden: Oh, thanks Tarmel, it felt important to do so  
    as things were going
    Maxine Walden: we are referring to Friday's meeting, Neela
    Tarmel Udimo: yes I know Pema prefers not to have ground  
    rules, but I think out of respect for the group and the sensitivity of  
    the material
    Tarmel Udimo: that we at least suggest that those attend be  
    mindful of why we are there
    Maxine Walden: that seems to be a very good point, Tarmel
    Scathach Rhiadra agrees
    Fefonz Quan nods

    Neela brings up a very interesting question, the relationship between the phenom exercises and PaB and her question stirs us all to review our own ideas about the relationship

    Neela Blaisdale: Just looking at the wiki, I see the 2 a and  
    b experiements. So where is the current PaB practice in all of this? A  
    little confusing...
    Scathach Rhiadra: its quite separate from PaB
    Scathach Rhiadra: although I understand Phenonemology is  
    connected to PaB
    Maxine Walden: separate and yet not entirely so, from my  
    understanding: because reversing roles, surrendering the subject role  
    is part of the PaB experience I think
    Maxine Walden: I think Pema introduced the 'seeing' and  
    'being seen' also as part of 'appearance' as a represenation of Being.  
    Is that what others understand?
    Tarmel Udimo: yes
    Tarmel Udimo: its easy to let the 9sec slide sometimes, this  
    is good way of staying connected to why we are here
    Fefonz Quan: i thought it is a little extended than the PaB
    Fefonz Quan: because it demanded more "active imagination"
    Fefonz Quan: like "imagine yourself being seen by the spoon"
    Fefonz Quan: while the PaB is more raw, clean and "pure" maybe
    Scathach Rhiadra: hmmm, my understanding is that we are not  
    to 'imagine' anything, but shift or perspective, so to speak
    Tarmel Udimo: yes that is my understanding too
    Maxine Walden: I think Pema suggested that I was being too  
    active when I was imagining, yes, agreeing with what Scath and Tarmel  
    are just saying
    Fefonz Quan: i agree, but this "shifting" is somehow doing,  
    where the PaB doesn't demand it at all
    Maxine Walden: so that makes it even more intriguing: not too  
    active, not doing anything out of the ordinary, just switching, but,  
    Fefonz I do agree that it does feel different from PaB
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Fefonz Quan: stopping, dropping, seeing and appereciating  
    (even the last term i argue is a little doing)
    Fefonz Quan: that's for PaB, so i'm with Maxine on that
    Scathach Rhiadra: I think Pema said something about pheno  
    experiments starting at the other end, looking at phenomema, while PaB  
    starts with Being
    Tarmel Udimo: perhaps it feels more "raw, clean and "pure"  
    because you are used to this perspective

    We are joined by someone who is just beginning to explore SL.  Since he did not stay long I have ommitted reference to him, leaving the strand of discussion about PaB and phenom 

    Fefonz Quan: no, just because it doesn't demand me to "do"  
    Fefonz Quan: and this shift is very doing
    Scathach Rhiadra: and we are still only doing the first  
    experiments, I amagiane there will be many more, woth different focus
    Tarmel Udimo: my understanding is whether subject, object or  
    appearance it is all being
    Scathach Rhiadra: imagine*
    Fefonz Quan: i can swith to seeing by the spoon, or the cat,  
    or the wall, or milliion other perspectives, but u have to choose
    Fefonz Quan: switch*

    Neela has to leave as the discussion remains intense

    Neela Blaisdale: Well see you all soon, must
    Neela Blaisdale: Bye, have a good night everyone
    Fefonz Quan: Bye Neela
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Neela
    Tarmel Udimo: so I am curious Fefonz, when you are doing PaB  
    you feel like you are doing nothing where as when you do the  
    expereiments you are doing 'something"?
    Tarmel Udimo: bye Neela
    Fefonz Quan: in a sense yes, tarmel
    Fefonz Quan: (i tried to show this on the choosing above)
    Fefonz Quan: ] Fefonz Quan: i can swith to seeing by  
    the spoon, or the cat, or the wall, or milliion other perspectives,  
    but u have to choose
    Fefonz Quan: and this choice needs to be made - hence doing
    Scathach Rhiadra: I think we all had trouble when we were  
    trying to 'be' a spoon or other object, so we seem to be focusing on  
    just being seen as an object...
    Scathach Rhiadra: hmmm:)
    Tarmel Udimo: without an understanding of what Pab is
    Tarmel Udimo: do you think you are being seen when you are  
    doing Pab Fefonz?
    Fefonz Quan: seeing by who or by what?
    Tarmel Udimo: well in the expereiment we are being seen as an  
    object do you feel this could be similar to what you are doing by  
    Fefonz Quan: maybe, and maybe not
    Fefonz Quan: surely there is some connection, i don't deny it
    Fefonz Quan: but yet i feel these are different approaches
    Scathach Rhiadra nods agreement with Fefonz
    Tarmel Udimo: although they may be different approaches do  
    they have the same result?
    Fefonz Quan: i think the term "being seen" needs so much  
    Scathach Rhiadra: but I don't think they were meant to be the  
    same approach
    Fefonz Quan: and comtemplation by the experimenter
    Fefonz Quan: that it is far more philosophical than being
    Fefonz Quan: (agree with scathach)
    Fefonz Quan: is being and "been smelled" is the same too?
    Tarmel Udimo: I think that was my point
    Scathach Rhiadra: could 'seen' not mean being perceived or  
    Tarmel Udimo: behind it all is being how we perceive,  
    connect , relate see be seen is a way in to being
    Scathach Rhiadra: brb
    Fefonz Quan: well, everything can be a way into being, we  
    just argue that those are two different ways :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: back, sorry telephone!

    After paying attention and IMing to someone very new to SL who only got confused and distracted from the above discussion, I try to come back to the discussion but am aware that now I feel a bit lost, maybe disoriented.  As the others seem to be at ease I conclude that perhaps I have been a bit de-centered.  With some thought, others suggest that perhaps some of their emotion has crept into the discussion.

    Maxine Walden: It may be just me, with my IMing the newcomer and all,  
    and thus not attending to the intense discussion here, but is everyone  
    feeling OK, or has a bit of tension/dissent crept into the group?
    Maxine Walden: Just trying to get a sense of the flow of things
    Tarmel Udimo: no i wasn't feeling that
    Scathach Rhiadra: no, I don't think so, does anyone else?:)
    Fefonz Quan: me neither
    Maxine Walden: OK, just my slight disconnection perhaps,  
    having to attend to the newbie and not wishing to leave the group
    Fefonz Quan: (or was it me with a hint of cynicism sorry for  
    that ;-)
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Tarmel Udimo: perhaps what you are picking up on was my  
    frustration about the pheno group and then this spilled over into  
    introducing a new person into Pab :-)

    Continuing to feel a bit of my frustration I mention that I will need to leave shortly.

    Maxine Walden: But having said that I do need to leave in a  
    couple of minutes, to go to another meeting; will take the chatlog but  
    if you all continue and wish to send me any further chat I will add it  
    to the log
    Tarmel Udimo: okay
    Scathach Rhiadra: ok Maxine

    I wonder about the intense emotions which may be present from the discussion as well as stirred by our individual experiences re PaB and the phenom experiments

    Maxine Walden: I think we each have intense experiences here  
    and our emotions are very likely to be a part of it
    Tarmel Udimo: yes
    Fefonz Quan: ?me nods
    Scathach Rhiadra: agreed
    Fefonz Quan nods
    Maxine Walden: OK, I will go now, glad for the meeting, and  
    will welcome further chat as we can
    Tarmel Udimo: and how quickly we all assumed it had to be us  
    that caused the tension when there was none :-)

    I then leave and the remainder of the discussion, below, was sent by Scathach.

    Tarmel Udimo: bye maxine
    Fefonz Quan: bye maxine :)
    Fefonz Quan: i like it that emotions are involved here and  
    we're not just having some intelectual debate
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, they are very personal experiences we  
    are trying to describe:)
    Tarmel Udimo: yes
    Tarmel Udimo: I do feel being seen is a deeper connection to  
    being in a strange way
    Scathach Rhiadra: maybe getting to the root of perception, so  
    to speak?
    Tarmel Udimo: :-)
    Tarmel Udimo: yes it allows us to remove a few more layers
    Fefonz Quan: i agree that this is an interesting technique
    Fefonz Quan: i just felt that though it give some new feel
    Fefonz Quan: (though i didn't post my experiment yet:))
    Scathach Rhiadra: :))
    Tarmel Udimo: smiles
    Fefonz Quan: yet, i felt that i need to propel my imagination  
    in order to do it
    Fefonz Quan: and knowing the tremendous power of the  
    imagination in illusions and delusions
    Tarmel Udimo: yes?

    Fefonz Quan: i find it untrusty
    Fefonz Quan: as a starting point
    Scathach Rhiadra: hmmm, yes, Ive felt the need to avoid using  
    my imagination
    Fefonz Quan: (adding layers rather then peeling them, i i may  
    Tarmel Udimo: okay now I understand
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Fefonz Quan: :)

    Tarmel Udimo: interestingly I felt the opposite stripped of  
    layers :-)
    Fefonz Quan: for some moments i did too, but i don't trust my  
    feeling here :-)
    Tarmel Udimo: and yet you trust your Pab expereinces -  
    Fefonz Quan: experiences i can describe
    Fefonz Quan: "feeling stripped" i treat as a conclusion/ 
    definition, that might be wrong
    Fefonz Quan: (at least metaphorical stripped :-))
    Tarmel Udimo: :-)
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Tarmel Udimo: and yet experiences are so subjective too
    Fefonz Quan: yes. i think i shouldn't stress it further,  
    because we kind of agree
    Tarmel Udimo: well in a way we are talking about trust
    Fefonz Quan: my main point was that the technique of "seeing"  
    was more force"non-active action"
    Tarmel Udimo: trust in Pab, trust in the expereiment and  
    trusting ourselves
    Fefonz Quan: thats all
    Fefonz Quan: yes, trust is an issue here
    Fefonz Quan: i am willing to trust both experiences, and yet  
    i can tell they are different experiments setup,for me
    Tarmel Udimo: I wasn't trying to disagree with you I was  
    trying to undersatnd more clearly what you really meant
    Tarmel Udimo: okay
    Tarmel Udimo: I understand
    Fefonz Quan: and yes, they might conclude in similar results.
    Fefonz Quan: So does visualizing complex deities sitting on  
    your head, vajrayana wise
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Tarmel Udimo: :-)
    Tarmel Udimo: so many people seem to benifit from complex  
    deities sitting on their heads :-)
    Tarmel Udimo: makes one wander
    Fefonz Quan: i nkow some complex people standing on their  
    heads :)
    Fefonz Quan: know*
    Scathach Rhiadra: :))
    Tarmel Udimo: grins
    Fefonz Quan: yes, we like complex stuff,
    Fefonz Quan: it keeps us entertained
    Scathach Rhiadra nods:)
    Tarmel Udimo: yes we do - well its monday morning for me and  
    so as much as I would rather sit and chat I must head back to RL and  
    be real... :-)
    Fefonz Quan: :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Tarmel, namasté
    Fefonz Quan: get real tarmel
    Tarmel Udimo: can one of you send the log to maxine?
    Tarmel Udimo: bye nice talking to you
    Fefonz Quan: i'm not sure i have it...
    Fefonz Quan: nice talking to you too
    Scathach Rhiadra: I will send it to Maxine
    Tarmel Udimo is Offline
    Fefonz Quan: thanks.
    Fefonz Quan: i enjoyed the talk,
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, it was very good, lively:)

    Fefonz Quan: and i felt frustrated when not understood and  
    relieved when i waws understood
    Scathach Rhiadra: ah, yes, it is frustrating thinking you are  
    being misunderstood:)
    Fefonz Quan: sometimes it seems like so many words are needed  
    to explain a single thought
    Scathach Rhiadra: and writing a report on what is a few  
    moments experience can take me hours:)
    Fefonz Quan: :)
    Fefonz Quan: i should goto sleep, it's past midnight here...
    Fefonz Quan: thanks for the talk
    Scathach Rhiadra: thank you, good night, namaste:)

    Fefonz Quan: _/!\_
    Fefonz Quan: :-)=
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