2009.01.15 13:00 - What is "ideal"? (part 1)

The guardian for this extended session - which (who knows) may become part of a series - was Storm Nordwind. The comments are Storm's.

Things started quietly while I damped down the fountain and rearranged the cushions.

Storm Nordwind: Hi Fefonz
Fefonz Quan: Hi Storm :)
Storm Nordwind: I think I'll change the seating, please excuse!
Storm Nordwind: Good evening Gaya!
Fefonz Quan: Hi Gaya :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello :)
Wol Euler: hello storn, fefonz, gaya
Fefonz Quan: Hello Wol
Storm Nordwind: And the Pure Wol Euler joins us, I see
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Fefonz Quan: :)
Wol Euler: :)
Storm Nordwind: I guess the Impure one had to stay at home
Wol Euler: yep
Wol Euler: we tossed a coin...
Storm Nordwind: Hmmm.. Fael has left an semitransparent globe here. I guess I'll return it

Gaya introduced us to some demos of other virtual worlds. Our reaction was not wholly positive!

Gaya Ethaniel: Have you heard of 'Nurien'?
Fefonz Quan: Nope
Wol Euler: not yet :)
Gaya Ethaniel looks up
Storm Nordwind: A social networking service?
Gaya Ethaniel: http://www.nurien.com/service/main/main.nrn - is launching in North America soon
Gaya Ethaniel: [watch the promo video]
Wol Euler: it's all in Japanese...
Gaya Ethaniel: [Korean] can you see the video?
Wol Euler: ha! I was just about to ask "or is that Korean?"
Storm Nordwind: I can't read the Korean though
Moon Fargis: hi^^
Storm Nordwind: Hello Moon
Fefonz Quan: hi moo!
Fefonz Quan: n
Moon Fargis: ^^
Wol Euler: is that a virtual world or just airbrushed to death?
Wol Euler: hello moon
Fefonz Quan: is it the cheshire version moon?
Gaya Ethaniel: It's similar to SL except that it's not based on user-created content
Moon Fargis: haha
Gaya Ethaniel: Super visual
Wol Euler: nice av, moon
Storm Nordwind: Not user-created content = game or social chat service perhaps
Moon Fargis purrzzzzzzzzz
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes social networking tool with website feature [similar to Facebook, blog all thrown in] linked
Gaya Ethaniel: Apparently this is the trend... I feel sad about that
Storm Nordwind: Perhaps the more adventurous will use it as a staging post to something like SL
Gaya Ethaniel: Blue Mars http://avatar-reality.com/ apparently offer something in-between... well let's see
Storm Nordwind: I'm always interested in anything we can use for research, experimentation, education etc
Gaya Ethaniel: Here is a video you can perhaps watch on Nurien - http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=Uv80lK...eature=related
Storm Nordwind: Thank you Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: np :) took hours to download the viewer though... 2.5 or so GB

100 times the size of an SL viewer???! And no user generated content? No instant fans made here then, no matter how pretty it looked.

Wol Euler: hmmm, don't think I will be queueing up for that then.
Storm Nordwind: Me neither!!!
Gaya Ethaniel: heheheh, I'm just researching... visuals and animations are great
Storm Nordwind: I can't zoom in to the video with alt-click-slide!!
Wol Euler: yeah, there are so many bits of the web where that is broken :)

And it's true. I must have tried so many times to zoom into a browser picture without success!

Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Pila, oh Moon hi
Pila Mulligan: hi
Storm Nordwind: Hello Pila
Fefonz Quan: hi Pila
Pila Mulligan: greetings
Wol Euler: hello pila, happy new year
Pila Mulligan: hauoli makahiki hou

So I hazarded a provocative question. And it proved just the right point at which to light the blue touchpaper. We started by exploring a particular ideal.

Storm Nordwind: So this kind of leads me to think "what is the ideal virtual world?"
Storm Nordwind: Anyone any thoughts?
Wol Euler: depends on how you define "ideal", I think
Fefonz Quan: surely it's the one with ports to all of them :)
Storm Nordwind: Exactly. What's ideal for you Wol?
Wol Euler: well, user-created content (as opposed to being unable to script and build and texture) has to be very high on my list
Gaya Ethaniel: Same here
Storm Nordwind: Me too. Otherwise you're stuck with what you're given.
Wol Euler: the avs have to be animated, automatically, like the way our avs breathe, and the anims have to be configurable or changeable
Wol Euler: I feel that a lot of the intensity in SL comes from the realism of our avatars, the time people spend making poses and crafting AOs
Fefonz Quan: is there is no user-created content, what's the meaning of "world"
Fefonz Quan: ?
Storm Nordwind: You'd still be a world Fefonz, just someone else's!
Gaya Ethaniel: Though these platforms seem to offer higher quality animations and visuals
Gaya Ethaniel: But less in variety... perhaps
Wol Euler: they can do that, gaya, because it isn't user-created.
Storm Nordwind: Sure Gaya. If you limit what people can do, you can give it a lot of detail.
Wol Euler: the system can download all the textures to your disk permanently rather than having to get them from the SL servers
Wol Euler: that's the 2.5Gb "viewer" you downloaded
Gaya Ethaniel: If what people are saying is true about the trend, it's a shame that people like us are in minority
Gaya Ethaniel: mmhmm
Storm Nordwind thinks 2.5 GB gives a new meaning to the term "Thick client"
Wol Euler: who's saying it though? People who have a commercial or social interest in it being true?
Fefonz Quan haven't even entered facebook....
Gaya Ethaniel: heheheh and users can buy more stuff but all the money goes to the company who owns the service
Wol Euler: another significant point for Storm's question. It needs a functioning economy.
Gaya Ethaniel: Well most of people aren't interested in creating contents Wol, they just want to use these tools to network etc
Wol Euler: (to qualify as possibly ideal)
Storm Nordwind nods. Good point Wol
Wol Euler: yes, gaya, but if you can't create stuff, neither can designers like Avid or Lorac.
Storm Nordwind: If people don't create stuff, visitors get bored
Wol Euler: they have no powers or software features that aren't available to you and I
Gaya Ethaniel: mmhmm
Wol Euler: what they do have is RL talents :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes that counts more imo
Gaya Ethaniel: Kind of solid foundation
Storm Nordwind: I wonder if we could have done PaB in one of these other worlds. And if so, would it have evolved differently?
Wol Euler: (the ability to own and control land)
Wol Euler: Storm, what would you require to consider a virtual world "ideal"?

We began to steer to an exploration of what "ideal" meant in the first place.

Storm Nordwind: Ah Wol... the word "ideal" is not often on my lips. Like "favourite"! :)
Wol Euler: oh but you used it to us!
Wol Euler: sauce for the goose etc.
Storm Nordwind: True.
Wol Euler: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Storm Nordwind: It depends on context and requirement
Storm Nordwind: And hence my musing about PaB
Storm Nordwind: Something with more limitations may have worked for PaB
Storm Nordwind: But it would not have allowed us to express ourselves so well
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Storm Nordwind: I wonder how important that is
Storm Nordwind: I think I'd like to take SL as a baseline and improve it functionally
Wol Euler: for instance?
Storm Nordwind: Quality of animation for example
Storm Nordwind: But... I'm easily pleased... I usually work within constraints!
Storm Nordwind: Just as in RL!
Wol Euler: :)
Wol Euler: perhaps an ideal system would include a constraint or two to keep people on their toes?
Storm Nordwind: You mean REALLY like real life!? :)
Wol Euler: mmhmm :)
Wol Euler: or the minimum and maximum prim sizes in SL
Storm Nordwind thinks the prim sizes are important for collision detection
Fefonz Quan: yes, just like the ideal RL we are managing :)

And now we came to the central issues. What does "ideal" mean anyway?

Wol Euler: there are two ways of thinking of "ideal", I think
Wol Euler: the abstract and absolute Platonic perfection; or the working model that we have and are constantly tweaking
Wol Euler: where "ideal" means "four or five iterations ahead of where we are now"
Wol Euler: i.e. a moving target, very non-platonic
Storm Nordwind: Is there ever such a thing then?
Wol Euler: yes of course :)
Wol Euler: "A man's reach must exceed his grasp, else what's a Heaven for?"
Storm Nordwind: You mean, ideal is where no one can be bothered anymore to change things?
Wol Euler: no, ideal is that towards which we strive, but which we (thank God) will never achieve
Wol Euler: ideal is the nagging itch, the vague wonder, the kick in the pants
Storm Nordwind: And do you think an ideal is static, or can that change?

Wol makes a important statement...

Wol Euler: ideal is the reason that we change things!

...and that proves a point for debate.

Storm Nordwind disagrees
Fefonz Quan disagrees too
Wol Euler chuckles. Please do :) Tell me more
Storm Nordwind: Fefonz?
Storm Nordwind does not want to dominate the conversation

We start to unpack "ideal", but are we talking about the same thing?

Fefonz Quan: well i think this ideal issue is too abstract
Gaya Ethaniel: and subjective too... which adds further layers
Fefonz Quan: if it is the reason we change things all the time, i wouldn't call it ideal. i would call it suffering
Storm Nordwind: I can understand that Fefonz.
Fefonz Quan: ideal is the smile on the model's face in a commercial
Fefonz Quan: where we are supposed to want in order for us to buy the new perfume/tv/car
Fefonz Quan: but infact it is the delusion that we are unhappy without it
Storm Nordwind nods
Storm Nordwind: Wol, do you have a response to that?
Gaya Ethaniel: Are we talking about two different things here? Perfect or ideal... or are they same?

Gaya's second question is partially missed for a while. We return to the idea of perfection later.

Fefonz Quan: so if this is heaven, give me hell ;-)
Wol Euler: I too don't want to dominate the conversation :)
Storm Nordwind: Touché!
Wol Euler: heheheh
Fefonz Quan: dominate, Wol :)
Wol Euler: well, since you insist.
Moon Fargis looks at her leather dress

However, regarding Gaya's first question, Pila takes it up.

Pila Mulligan: I'd say the talk is about two different things
Fefonz Quan: :)
Gaya Ethaniel nods... bit confused here
Wol Euler: your definition and examples seem to me unnecessarily cynical and somewhat mercenary.
Pila Mulligan: maybe three or more :)
Wol Euler: Ideal can be a cultural construct or a commercial motivation
Gaya Ethaniel listens
Fefonz Quan didn't mean to sound cynical
Wol Euler: as applied to cellphones, for instance, I would take "ideal" as meaning "improve the communication device until it disappears"
Wol Euler: where you seem to me to be saying "cause people to buy our product not theirs"
Pila Mulligan: i.e., different things
Wol Euler: which I find to be a very static interpretation
Wol Euler: yes, pila
Pila Mulligan: I agree with both
Storm Nordwind is not sure he could use a disappearing cellphone
Wol Euler smiles. Words again :)
Wol Euler: "ceci n'est pas une pipe"

Ah yes, "words". Notwithstanding Wol's quote from René Magritte, it's worth mentioning that for those in countries other than the US, please interpret the word "cellphone" as the more globally prevalent "handphone", or (if you're in the UK) as "mobile". In any case, the metaphor is one of several helping us to explore what "ideal" means.

Fefonz Quan: for me, for example, i deal cell phone will be the kind in which people will talk much less than today
Fefonz Quan: and the size of it is not the matter
Wol Euler: right, which is not about sales or advertising
Fefonz Quan: (good reception might help though)
Wol Euler: (I meant disappear in the sense of "all problems of user interface, availability, quality of sound etc will be solved"
Wol Euler: that we would use a cellphone with as little thought and difficulty as a paperclip
Storm Nordwind: But I bring about change to my phone by charging its battery. I am not doing so by aiming for an ideal am I?
Wol Euler: now there is an object which has arrived at its own platonic ideal :)
Wol Euler: no, but nokia are when they squeeze an extra 37 minutes' usage out of a 12% lighter battery
Storm Nordwind: That's them. I bring about change on a daily basis too.
Wol Euler: yes, but a different order of change.
Fefonz Quan: yes, maybe for a cell phone which has a very limited functionality it sounds correct
Wol Euler: perhaps the ideal of "cellphone" is that it will disappear into an item of everyday clothing...
Fefonz Quan: (like i think that the fx-82 calculator is my example of an instrument which is perfect for it's cause)
Wol Euler: much in the way that General Motors sells more computers than Hewlett Packard :)
Wol Euler: they just don't announce that they are doing so
Fefonz Quan: but for a much more complex entity like "world"
Pila Mulligan: Fefonz's description of the ideal smile on the model's face in a commercial, intended to create a desire, or else be unhappy without it, is very succinct and accurate -- in an ideal world Wol's quasi-Platonic ideal, would being antithetical to and displace the advertising propaganda
Fefonz Quan: which has so much degrees of freedom and evolves all the time,
Wol Euler: yes pila, I like the recursiveness of your statement :)
Wol Euler: ideal in an ideal world.
Pila Mulligan: even got an extra ing n being to remind us where we are :)
Wol Euler: ideal is the carrot that keeps the donkey moving
Pila Mulligan: or not :)
Fefonz Quan: or is it freedom?
Storm Nordwind: Ah... so it is possible to have an ideal that is completely unlinked to the thing we are changing
Gaya Ethaniel: Freedom to...?
Fefonz Quan: freedom to choose where to go without been pulled like a donkey
Fefonz Quan: carrot in front of a donkey can me a motive, but i don't consider it ideal
Fefonz Quan: (ideal motive)
Wol Euler: I meant a figurative carrot and an illustrative donkey :)
Fefonz Quan: sure, i know :)
Wol Euler grins
Fefonz Quan: i just think that ideal means development or evolution
Wol Euler: exactly! so do I!
Fefonz Quan: but evolution that has some ending point
Storm Nordwind: Why an ending point?
Wol Euler: ah, there we might possibly disagree :)
Fefonz Quan: where everything must stop
Fefonz Quan: but if we are talking about evolution that keeps on going
Fefonz Quan: then i would go with that, but then where is the "ideal" point standing?
Storm Nordwind: I think Wol may mean the ideal is the direction not a location. Right?
Wol Euler: if you mean "ideal" as a cultural construct, as a motivator - yes, storm, exactly
Wol Euler: well said
Wol Euler: that is why it moves ahead of us.
Wol Euler: ideal is "north" not "edinburgh"
Storm Nordwind can vouch for that!

Not that I have anything against Edinburgh. Oh no. Certainly not. Honest. I've just chosen to live in Glasgow, that's all. ;)

We continue to discuss the idea of what a particular ideal might materialise as, and how that may change through time.

Wol Euler: north is still elsewhere even when I arrive at Edinburgh
Fefonz Quan: so it's "north" today, but will be "east" tomorrow
Wol Euler: perhaps; and if so, why not?
Wol Euler: perhaps when we get close enough to north we'll discover that we don't like it; that we misunderstood it
Storm Nordwind nods
Fefonz Quan: we totally agree on that
Wol Euler: for many decades "communism" was an ideal, then people tried it and found that it didn't actually solve the problems it claimed to address
Wol Euler: it's still an idea, even an ideology, but it's hardly an ideal any more
Fefonz Quan: and it wasn't on the first place, that's my point
Wol Euler: we know that now ...
Fefonz Quan: and if it changes all the time, it takes out the meaning from the word "ideal"
Wol Euler: no, I disagree.
Wol Euler: ideal is relative not absolute, I think.
Fefonz Quan: and call it "moral", "temporal direction" etc.
Wol Euler: "ideal" does not need to overlap completely with "perfect"
Wol Euler will shut up and let someone else talk now
Fefonz Quan: so i can have many "ideals" to choose from on every moment?
Wol Euler: yes, of course.
Wol Euler: one for each aspect of your life
Storm Nordwind: And depending on your current personal motivation
Wol Euler: your ideal of religion is not your ideal of footwear
Wol Euler: yes :)
Fefonz Quan: no, some for each aspect, i can decide between the "communist" and the "capitalist"
Storm Nordwind: And your sense of priorities

Ah... "priorities". Another word; another idea. More fuel for the debate!

Wol Euler: ideal is what lets you have priorities to decide between
Storm Nordwind: I would say the other way round
Wol Euler laughs happily.
Fefonz Quan nods
Wol Euler: do tell.
Storm Nordwind: Priorities determine which ideals you will pursue or leave
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Wol Euler: mmmmm, maybe :) that is tactics, not strategy.
Storm Nordwind: No
Storm Nordwind: It is true strategy
Wol Euler considers.
Storm Nordwind: Ideals are the tactics, the short range
Storm Nordwind: And they change
Storm Nordwind: My priorities stay the same over long periods
Wol Euler: I think I am using the term "ideal" to cover what you call a "priority".
Gaya Ethaniel: brb
Storm Nordwind: Then, if so, you should be able to order your ideals in a list
Wol Euler raises an eyebrow. By deciding how much energy I am willing to devote to each, for instance?
Fefonz Quan: i thought also that we are using this word
Fefonz Quan: and jumping between it's different meanings
Wol Euler: yes, fefonz, that is probably true.
Fefonz Quan: quote:1. a conception of something in its perfection.
2. a standard of perfection or excellence.
3. a person or thing conceived as embodying such a conception or conforming to such a standard, and taken as a model for imitation: Thomas Jefferson was his ideal.
4. an ultimate object or aim of endeavor, esp. one of high or noble character: He refuses to compromise any of his ideals.
5. something that exists only in the imagination: To achieve the ideal is almost hopeless.
Fefonz Quan: (from a web dictionary)
Storm Nordwind: If that is your criteria for ordering priorities (sorry, ideals) then yes. It's not mine. Because then the criteria or sorting mechanism becomes the priority, and that is not so for me

But my extended comment was lost in the excited discussion!

Fefonz Quan: WOl uses no. 4, while i thought of no.1
Wol Euler frowns and reads back.
Gaya Ethaniel: back
Fefonz Quan: ( i also agree with no.5) :)
Pila Mulligan: the mundane (real) world demands Pila's presence -- nice chat, folks -- bye bye
Storm Nordwind: Bye Pila!
Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Pile
Wol Euler: bye pila, take care
Fefonz Quan: bye Pila ;)
Gaya Ethaniel: Pila :)
Wol Euler: I was thinking actually more of 3 (and indeed 5): the ideal of "instant personal communication without physical presence" which made Edison invent the telephone
Wol Euler: and indeed made Nokia make smaller better batteries
Wol Euler shuts up again.
Fefonz Quan: so i think i have no argue with that
Gaya Ethaniel: I was hoping for a good discussion... it has been more than good so far :)

Gaya is spot on!

Wol Euler: perfection and ideal are to me quite separate concepts, somehow, which I hadn't really grasped before
Storm Nordwind holds off equipping people with weapons
Wol Euler: heheheheh
Gaya Ethaniel: [so don't feel you need to shut up Wol :)]
Wol Euler: awww ty :)

So what does "perfection" mean, if anything?

Fefonz Quan: i do feel that even if you define ideal as "how i will improve this or that"
Fefonz Quan: then applying it to a world might be problematic
Gaya Ethaniel: So perfection is one with the dead-end?
Fefonz Quan: loose end :)
Storm Nordwind: Interesting. Perfection is a word I never use. Ideal is a word I only normally use with a sense of irony! ;)
Gaya Ethaniel: ah...
Wol Euler: as I see it, yes, gaya, perfection is static, the end of evolution.
Gaya Ethaniel: And ideal is subjective and relative?
Fefonz Quan: and thus - perfection for me is unreal, even unwanted in a sense
Wol Euler: compared to "perfection", yes
Wol Euler: yes, fefonz, unwanted.
Gaya Ethaniel: ah...
Wol Euler: ideal = freedom of action, perfection = fixed destiny, no choice
Storm Nordwind thinks that perfection may well be a meaningless concept

Talk of weapons as an 'aid' to discussion a while back prompted Gaya to distribute pink squeaky hammers to everyone! Meanwhile Fefonz makes a statement that we come back to later.

Fefonz Quan: infact, - i tried to avoid saying it so far -
Fefonz Quan: PaB is kind of "being and feeling as in the ideal moment"
Fefonz Quan: and then - the next ideal moment, and the next....
Wol Euler nods
Storm Nordwind: Lovely image. Thank you Fefonz
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Fefonz Quan: lol
Fefonz Quan: but then - it is the exact opposite of Wol's definition
Fefonz Quan: thanks gaya:)
Gaya Ethaniel: Click on the person you want to hit Fefonz [when not sitting]
Gaya Ethaniel: yw :)

We all stand up and a brief interlude of much needed silliness breaks out as we thwack each other with the pink squeaky hammers. Perhaps Gaya thinks we've finished because she suggests that we need to carry on this discussion next week. And why not? :)

Gaya Ethaniel: So when is the second instalment on Ideal?
Wol Euler chuckles
Gaya Ethaniel: Next week? :)
Wol Euler: heheheh
Fefonz Quan: wow, Wol, i wouldn't do that if i saw this samurai sword before :)
Wol Euler: no worries, I havent figured out how to use it yet
Storm Nordwind sends a batch of HeartPikopikaHammers to all major war zones in the hope that here's a better way of resolving problems
Wol Euler nods
Gaya Ethaniel: aaww :)
Storm Nordwind: Sure we can talk about ideals again next week!
Storm Nordwind: And perfection
Storm Nordwind: And change
Storm Nordwind: And priorities
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Wol Euler: and hammers
Storm Nordwind: Oh yes. Definitely hammers

But we want to continue RIGHT NOW! So we do, unravelling Fefonz's statement. Is "changing" the opposite to "being"? Is "stopping" still "changing"?

Fefonz Quan: i was just in the middle of the argument...
Fefonz Quan: :)
Fefonz Quan: hammers, yes
Gaya Ethaniel: I know Fefonz you got me all tangled up again
Wol Euler: yes, I wondered what you meant.
Gaya Ethaniel: [14:14] Fefonz Quan: but then - it is the exact opposite of Wol's definition
Fefonz Quan: exactly - because in WOl's definition - ideal as a motive - it drives me to DO, CHANGE something
Fefonz Quan: where in PaB - it just cause me to BE, STAY in the moment
Fefonz Quan: - the exact opposite operation
Wol Euler: but is that not a change? does it not change your usual not-being, not-in-the-moment way of small-B-being?
Wol Euler: are you always, at every instant of your life, in the state of PaB induced tranquillity?
Wol Euler: or is that state an ideal that you change your state-of-self to become, while meditating?
Fefonz Quan: while being, - which change are we talking about?
Fefonz Quan: or did you mean the on-going practice and it's effect?
Wol Euler: yes
Storm Nordwind: Interesting. There is a certain PaB related state (ES) that I consider an ideal (non-ironic), but I am rarely in it. Now... what changes does it drive me towards? Hmmm...
Wol Euler: when you meditate and feel that effect, you are feeling it by virtue of its being different to your state before and after (I think)
Fefonz Quan: even if i "feel" a change, i don't DO almost anything in order to "get it" (i think)
Fefonz Quan: the other way around - i try to stop doing.
Gaya Ethaniel: Just different states for me... not one state better than the other as in ideal
Wol Euler: right, but that is itself a change, a doing. You DO "stop"
Wol Euler: or you wu wei it :)
Fefonz Quan: before we go into that difference, which i feel is more subtle than what we talked about before
Wol Euler listens
Fefonz Quan: well... i wanted to say that in the previous discussion we talked about clear actions
Fefonz Quan: here the different between being and doing while in meditation is and interesting one - but much more fine and subtler
Fefonz Quan: it turns to the classical question - are we practicing in order to get to a goal
Fefonz Quan: (which contradicts being in some sense?)
Gaya Ethaniel: This reminds me of what Pema and Stim were talking about the other day... what we trying to do is not about something to reach/get at...? hm...
Fefonz Quan nods
Storm Nordwind takes a pragmatic view. Whichever way works for you :)
Fefonz Quan: and for Wol's qiestion - i do feel that stopping somehow differs from regular doing
Wol Euler: mmmmmm yes.
Fefonz Quan: it "feels" different, not on the linguistical level
Gaya Ethaniel: So 'doing PaB' is not relevant to the ideal debate in a way?
Gaya Ethaniel: Because Fefonz you are not trying to improve or reach a goal right?
Fefonz Quan: it is relevant as an opposition to the "ideal" ideal :)
Wol Euler: perhaps it is, in the way that the PaB state of mind, of Being, is an ideal that motivates us to modify our behaviour
Fefonz Quan: in that sense i agree, Wol
Gaya Ethaniel: ah...

Wol told us a poignant story.

Wol Euler: I'm trying to remember a Woody Allen short story I read some time back, about a very shallow man who hears that his friend is in hospital, dying of cancer. He overcomes resistance and revulsion and fear and visits him.
Wol Euler: And falls in love with one of the nurses, after which he visits several times a day, while his friend sinks to death.
Wol Euler: Near the end, the friend takes his hand and whispers how much his presence has meant to him during these days, and dies happy in the knowledge that he had a true friend#s love.
Wol Euler: the friend was only there to try to pick up the nurse.
Wol Euler: but does that invalidate the dying man's feeling of having been comforted?
Fefonz Quan: no
Storm Nordwind: No. of course not
Storm Nordwind: All is in perception
Wol Euler smiles and brushes something from her eye.
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Fefonz Quan: it's a nice story, Wo
Wol Euler: :)
Storm Nordwind remembers the saying, "We are what we perceive"
Wol Euler nods
Wol Euler: and also "we become that which we regularly do". By pretending to be a comfort, the shallow man comforted.
Fefonz Quan: i ws going to quote FOrest Gump on that
Wol Euler: please do :)
Fefonz Quan: but forgot the exact words :)
Wol Euler: http://imdb.com
Storm Nordwind: hmmm... maybe not Wol in this case. The shallow man did not comfort. The dying man took comfort.
Fefonz Quan: "stupid is what stupid does" ?
Wol Euler: ah, but "took" from where?
Gaya Ethaniel: From within I guess...
Storm Nordwind: From himself Wol.

We were joined, even at this late hour, by a nearly-new visitor.

Samuel Okelly: good evening every1 :)
Samuel Okelly: may i join you?
Wol Euler: hello samuel
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello
Storm Nordwind: Hello Samuel. Have you been here before?
Wol Euler: yes, of course, samuel
Samuel Okelly: just the once storm
Wol Euler: we're pretty informal.

Fefonz Quan: in some way, the comforting man did intend to come on the first place
Fefonz Quan: and he too got rewarded for that
Fefonz Quan: resulting in more visit for the good of both of them

Storm Nordwind: We're running a long session it seems Samuel ;)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Fefonz Quan: i'll have to leave soon...
Samuel Okelly: well im not sure hw long i can stay this evening but i had a great discussion about buddhism yesterday evening
Fefonz Quan: though i really enjoy our talk here
Wol Euler: likewise, fefonz, thank you.
Storm Nordwind: It's been a good one. Thank you everyone for joining in
Wol Euler: bonus karma points for us all, tonight!
Fefonz Quan: thanks, Wol, Gaya and Storm
Gaya Ethaniel: Thank you :)
Gaya Ethaniel: I can't wait for next week
Storm Nordwind: Cool! Great Gaya :)
Storm Nordwind: Bye for now Fefonz
Wol Euler: bye fefonz, take care
Samuel Okelly: tc Fe
Fefonz Quan: bye All :)
Wol Euler: brb
Gaya Ethaniel: ok
Storm Nordwind: Gaya are you staying?
Storm Nordwind: Samuel, we are often done by 2:00 PM SLT
Storm Nordwind: Tonight we went on longer
Samuel Okelly: ahh i see
Gaya Ethaniel: I will probably head to bed soon but wait for Wol to come back
Storm Nordwind: Where are you in RL?
Samuel Okelly: i forget wthe names of the two femake avs iw as speaking to yesterday .. :(
Samuel Okelly: i am in ireland
Storm Nordwind: OK. We are all in Europe here and it is getting late
Storm Nordwind: But if you turn up at 9pm in future that would be the best!
Samuel Okelly: i will try :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Samuel Okelly: i will look forward to that :)
Storm Nordwind: That's 9pm Ireland and UK time
Samuel Okelly: sure
Storm Nordwind: We rotate who is here
Samuel Okelly: 9pm every day is that?
Gaya Ethaniel: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Informatio...dian_Timetable
Storm Nordwind: But some of us come regularly anyway!
Storm Nordwind: It's actually every six hours
Gaya Ethaniel: 9 am, 3 pm, 9 pm, 3 am GMT each day
Storm Nordwind: 1/7/1/7 Second Life Time
Wol Euler: back, reading
Samuel Okelly: ahh yes i remember noiw
Storm Nordwind: Or as Gaya says for us
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Good night then Storm, Wol and Samuel
Samuel Okelly: ok folks... ill shoot off but hope to see you again soon :)
Storm Nordwind: Goodnight
Samuel Okelly: tc every1 :)
Wol Euler: we'll be here :)
Wol Euler: take care, samuel
Gaya Ethaniel: Catch up soon again Wol. Hope RL goes smoothly
Storm Nordwind: We'll be delighted to chat again with you soon Samuel
Wol Euler: ty gaya
Storm Nordwind: Bye for now Gaya
Wol Euler: bye for now, take care

Only Wol and I are left now. It is late. I think about the scribe who will read these words.

Storm Nordwind: Well I better post this quick for the scribe! :)
Wol Euler: :)
Storm Nordwind: Be warned - it takes a lot of work!
Wol Euler: I liked your piece very much, Storm. You set us a very high standard
Storm Nordwind: You are so kind
Wol Euler smiles. Only the truth.
Storm Nordwind: I thought Solo had set the bar very high as it was!
Wol Euler: mmhmm, also true.
Storm Nordwind: But it takes a lot of time to read, and take notes
Storm Nordwind: And it takes a lot of time to craft an article
Wol Euler nods. I am vaguely apprehensive about that already.
Wol Euler: but I'm pleased to see the variety of approaches, that all have been welcomed
Storm Nordwind: Yes
Wol Euler: I was going to bring up your point about the acceptance that is brought to unusual thoughts and ideas here, during the conversation about ideal worlds
Wol Euler: but the convo moved on before I'd formulated the thought
Storm Nordwind nods
Storm Nordwind: Good point though
Storm Nordwind: A great debate
Wol Euler: definitely.
Wol Euler: it would be immodest to flag one of one's own logs as "full of wonderfulness" but the predicate was earned
Storm Nordwind smiles
Storm Nordwind never looks at the tags
Wol Euler: I'll try to shut up once in a while next time :)
Storm Nordwind shakes his head
Storm Nordwind: I'm glad I did just the right amount of needling before stepping back ;)
Wol Euler: heheheheheh
Wol Euler: you got us moving, all right!
Storm Nordwind: hehe!
Storm Nordwind: A good horse runs at the shadow of the whip
Wol Euler whinnies
Storm Nordwind: Well I must head for RL
Wol Euler: I too, alas. 'night Storm, sleep well.
Storm Nordwind: You too Wol. Bye for now
Wol Euler: take care