2009.01.15 13:00 - What is "ideal"? (part 1)

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    The guardian for this extended session - which (who knows) may become part of a series - was Storm Nordwind. The comments are Storm's.

    Things started quietly while I damped down the fountain and rearranged the cushions.

    Storm Nordwind: Hi Fefonz
    Fefonz Quan: Hi Storm :)
    Storm Nordwind: I think I'll change the seating, please excuse!
    Storm Nordwind: Good evening Gaya!
    Fefonz Quan: Hi Gaya :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello :)
    Wol Euler: hello storn, fefonz, gaya
    Fefonz Quan: Hello Wol
    Storm Nordwind: And the Pure Wol Euler joins us, I see
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Fefonz Quan: :)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Storm Nordwind: I guess the Impure one had to stay at home
    Wol Euler: yep
    Wol Euler: we tossed a coin...
    Storm Nordwind: Hmmm.. Fael has left an semitransparent globe here. I guess I'll return it

    Gaya introduced us to some demos of other virtual worlds. Our reaction was not wholly positive!

    Gaya Ethaniel: Have you heard of 'Nurien'?
    Fefonz Quan: Nope
    Wol Euler: not yet :)
    Gaya Ethaniel looks up
    Storm Nordwind: A social networking service?
    Gaya Ethaniel: http://www.nurien.com/service/main/main.nrn - is launching in North America soon
    Gaya Ethaniel: [watch the promo video]
    Wol Euler: it's all in Japanese...
    Gaya Ethaniel: [Korean] can you see the video?
    Wol Euler: ha! I was just about to ask "or is that Korean?"
    Storm Nordwind: I can't read the Korean though
    Moon Fargis: hi^^
    Storm Nordwind: Hello Moon
    Fefonz Quan: hi moo!
    Fefonz Quan: n
    Moon Fargis: ^^
    Wol Euler: is that a virtual world or just airbrushed to death?
    Wol Euler: hello moon
    Fefonz Quan: is it the cheshire version moon?
    Gaya Ethaniel: It's similar to SL except that it's not based on user-created content
    Moon Fargis: haha
    Gaya Ethaniel: Super visual
    Wol Euler: nice av, moon
    Storm Nordwind: Not user-created content = game or social chat service perhaps
    Moon Fargis purrzzzzzzzzz
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes social networking tool with website feature [similar to Facebook, blog all thrown in] linked
    Gaya Ethaniel: Apparently this is the trend... I feel sad about that
    Storm Nordwind: Perhaps the more adventurous will use it as a staging post to something like SL
    Gaya Ethaniel: Blue Mars http://avatar-reality.com/ apparently offer something in-between... well let's see
    Storm Nordwind: I'm always interested in anything we can use for research, experimentation, education etc
    Gaya Ethaniel: Here is a video you can perhaps watch on Nurien - http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=Uv80lK...eature=related
    Storm Nordwind: Thank you Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: np :) took hours to download the viewer though... 2.5 or so GB

    100 times the size of an SL viewer???! And no user generated content? No instant fans made here then, no matter how pretty it looked.

    Wol Euler: hmmm, don't think I will be queueing up for that then.
    Storm Nordwind: Me neither!!!
    Gaya Ethaniel: heheheh, I'm just researching... visuals and animations are great
    Storm Nordwind: I can't zoom in to the video with alt-click-slide!!
    Wol Euler: yeah, there are so many bits of the web where that is broken :)

    And it's true. I must have tried so many times to zoom into a browser picture without success!

    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Pila, oh Moon hi
    Pila Mulligan: hi
    Storm Nordwind: Hello Pila
    Fefonz Quan: hi Pila
    Pila Mulligan: greetings
    Wol Euler: hello pila, happy new year
    Pila Mulligan: hauoli makahiki hou

    So I hazarded a provocative question. And it proved just the right point at which to light the blue touchpaper. We started by exploring a particular ideal.

    Storm Nordwind: So this kind of leads me to think "what is the ideal virtual world?"
    Storm Nordwind: Anyone any thoughts?
    Wol Euler: depends on how you define "ideal", I think
    Fefonz Quan: surely it's the one with ports to all of them :)
    Storm Nordwind: Exactly. What's ideal for you Wol?
    Wol Euler: well, user-created content (as opposed to being unable to script and build and texture) has to be very high on my list
    Gaya Ethaniel: Same here
    Storm Nordwind: Me too. Otherwise you're stuck with what you're given.
    Wol Euler: the avs have to be animated, automatically, like the way our avs breathe, and the anims have to be configurable or changeable
    Wol Euler: I feel that a lot of the intensity in SL comes from the realism of our avatars, the time people spend making poses and crafting AOs
    Fefonz Quan: is there is no user-created content, what's the meaning of "world"
    Fefonz Quan: ?
    Storm Nordwind: You'd still be a world Fefonz, just someone else's!
    Gaya Ethaniel: Though these platforms seem to offer higher quality animations and visuals
    Gaya Ethaniel: But less in variety... perhaps
    Wol Euler: they can do that, gaya, because it isn't user-created.
    Storm Nordwind: Sure Gaya. If you limit what people can do, you can give it a lot of detail.
    Wol Euler: the system can download all the textures to your disk permanently rather than having to get them from the SL servers
    Wol Euler: that's the 2.5Gb "viewer" you downloaded
    Gaya Ethaniel: If what people are saying is true about the trend, it's a shame that people like us are in minority
    Gaya Ethaniel: mmhmm
    Storm Nordwind thinks 2.5 GB gives a new meaning to the term "Thick client"
    Wol Euler: who's saying it though? People who have a commercial or social interest in it being true?
    Fefonz Quan haven't even entered facebook....
    Gaya Ethaniel: heheheh and users can buy more stuff but all the money goes to the company who owns the service
    Wol Euler: another significant point for Storm's question. It needs a functioning economy.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well most of people aren't interested in creating contents Wol, they just want to use these tools to network etc
    Wol Euler: (to qualify as possibly ideal)
    Storm Nordwind nods. Good point Wol
    Wol Euler: yes, gaya, but if you can't create stuff, neither can designers like Avid or Lorac.
    Storm Nordwind: If people don't create stuff, visitors get bored
    Wol Euler: they have no powers or software features that aren't available to you and I
    Gaya Ethaniel: mmhmm
    Wol Euler: what they do have is RL talents :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes that counts more imo
    Gaya Ethaniel: Kind of solid foundation
    Storm Nordwind: I wonder if we could have done PaB in one of these other worlds. And if so, would it have evolved differently?
    Wol Euler: (the ability to own and control land)
    Wol Euler: Storm, what would you require to consider a virtual world "ideal"?

    We began to steer to an exploration of what "ideal" meant in the first place.

    Storm Nordwind: Ah Wol... the word "ideal" is not often on my lips. Like "favourite"! :)
    Wol Euler: oh but you used it to us!
    Wol Euler: sauce for the goose etc.
    Storm Nordwind: True.
    Wol Euler: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Storm Nordwind: It depends on context and requirement
    Storm Nordwind: And hence my musing about PaB
    Storm Nordwind: Something with more limitations may have worked for PaB
    Storm Nordwind: But it would not have allowed us to express ourselves so well
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Storm Nordwind: I wonder how important that is
    Storm Nordwind: I think I'd like to take SL as a baseline and improve it functionally
    Wol Euler: for instance?
    Storm Nordwind: Quality of animation for example
    Storm Nordwind: But... I'm easily pleased... I usually work within constraints!
    Storm Nordwind: Just as in RL!
    Wol Euler: :)
    Wol Euler: perhaps an ideal system would include a constraint or two to keep people on their toes?
    Storm Nordwind: You mean REALLY like real life!? :)
    Wol Euler: mmhmm :)
    Wol Euler: or the minimum and maximum prim sizes in SL
    Storm Nordwind thinks the prim sizes are important for collision detection
    Fefonz Quan: yes, just like the ideal RL we are managing :)

    And now we came to the central issues. What does "ideal" mean anyway?

    Wol Euler: there are two ways of thinking of "ideal", I think
    Wol Euler: the abstract and absolute Platonic perfection; or the working model that we have and are constantly tweaking
    Wol Euler: where "ideal" means "four or five iterations ahead of where we are now"
    Wol Euler: i.e. a moving target, very non-platonic
    Storm Nordwind: Is there ever such a thing then?
    Wol Euler: yes of course :)
    Wol Euler: "A man's reach must exceed his grasp, else what's a Heaven for?"
    Storm Nordwind: You mean, ideal is where no one can be bothered anymore to change things?
    Wol Euler: no, ideal is that towards which we strive, but which we (thank God) will never achieve
    Wol Euler: ideal is the nagging itch, the vague wonder, the kick in the pants
    Storm Nordwind: And do you think an ideal is static, or can that change?

    Wol makes a important statement...

    Wol Euler: ideal is the reason that we change things!

    ...and that proves a point for debate.

    Storm Nordwind disagrees
    Fefonz Quan disagrees too
    Wol Euler chuckles. Please do :) Tell me more
    Storm Nordwind: Fefonz?
    Storm Nordwind does not want to dominate the conversation

    We start to unpack "ideal", but are we talking about the same thing?

    Fefonz Quan: well i think this ideal issue is too abstract
    Gaya Ethaniel: and subjective too... which adds further layers
    Fefonz Quan: if it is the reason we change things all the time, i wouldn't call it ideal. i would call it suffering
    Storm Nordwind: I can understand that Fefonz.
    Fefonz Quan: ideal is the smile on the model's face in a commercial
    Fefonz Quan: where we are supposed to want in order for us to buy the new perfume/tv/car
    Fefonz Quan: but infact it is the delusion that we are unhappy without it
    Storm Nordwind nods
    Storm Nordwind: Wol, do you have a response to that?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Are we talking about two different things here? Perfect or ideal... or are they same?

    Gaya's second question is partially missed for a while. We return to the idea of perfection later.

    Fefonz Quan: so if this is heaven, give me hell ;-)
    Wol Euler: I too don't want to dominate the conversation :)
    Storm Nordwind: Touché!
    Wol Euler: heheheh
    Fefonz Quan: dominate, Wol :)
    Wol Euler: well, since you insist.
    Moon Fargis looks at her leather dress

    However, regarding Gaya's first question, Pila takes it up.

    Pila Mulligan: I'd say the talk is about two different things
    Fefonz Quan: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel nods... bit confused here
    Wol Euler: your definition and examples seem to me unnecessarily cynical and somewhat mercenary.
    Pila Mulligan: maybe three or more :)
    Wol Euler: Ideal can be a cultural construct or a commercial motivation
    Gaya Ethaniel listens
    Fefonz Quan didn't mean to sound cynical
    Wol Euler: as applied to cellphones, for instance, I would take "ideal" as meaning "improve the communication device until it disappears"
    Wol Euler: where you seem to me to be saying "cause people to buy our product not theirs"
    Pila Mulligan: i.e., different things
    Wol Euler: which I find to be a very static interpretation
    Wol Euler: yes, pila
    Pila Mulligan: I agree with both
    Storm Nordwind is not sure he could use a disappearing cellphone
    Wol Euler smiles. Words again :)
    Wol Euler: "ceci n'est pas une pipe"

    Ah yes, "words". Notwithstanding Wol's quote from René Magritte, it's worth mentioning that for those in countries other than the US, please interpret the word "cellphone" as the more globally prevalent "handphone", or (if you're in the UK) as "mobile". In any case, the metaphor is one of several helping us to explore what "ideal" means.

    Fefonz Quan: for me, for example, i deal cell phone will be the kind in which people will talk much less than today
    Fefonz Quan: and the size of it is not the matter
    Wol Euler: right, which is not about sales or advertising
    Fefonz Quan: (good reception might help though)
    Wol Euler: (I meant disappear in the sense of "all problems of user interface, availability, quality of sound etc will be solved"
    Wol Euler: that we would use a cellphone with as little thought and difficulty as a paperclip
    Storm Nordwind: But I bring about change to my phone by charging its battery. I am not doing so by aiming for an ideal am I?
    Wol Euler: now there is an object which has arrived at its own platonic ideal :)
    Wol Euler: no, but nokia are when they squeeze an extra 37 minutes' usage out of a 12% lighter battery
    Storm Nordwind: That's them. I bring about change on a daily basis too.
    Wol Euler: yes, but a different order of change.
    Fefonz Quan: yes, maybe for a cell phone which has a very limited functionality it sounds correct
    Wol Euler: perhaps the ideal of "cellphone" is that it will disappear into an item of everyday clothing...
    Fefonz Quan: (like i think that the fx-82 calculator is my example of an instrument which is perfect for it's cause)
    Wol Euler: much in the way that General Motors sells more computers than Hewlett Packard :)
    Wol Euler: they just don't announce that they are doing so
    Fefonz Quan: but for a much more complex entity like "world"
    Pila Mulligan: Fefonz's description of the ideal smile on the model's face in a commercial, intended to create a desire, or else be unhappy without it, is very succinct and accurate -- in an ideal world Wol's quasi-Platonic ideal, would being antithetical to and displace the advertising propaganda
    Fefonz Quan: which has so much degrees of freedom and evolves all the time,
    Wol Euler: yes pila, I like the recursiveness of your statement :)
    Wol Euler: ideal in an ideal world.
    Pila Mulligan: even got an extra ing n being to remind us where we are :)
    Wol Euler: ideal is the carrot that keeps the donkey moving
    Pila Mulligan: or not :)
    Fefonz Quan: or is it freedom?
    Storm Nordwind: Ah... so it is possible to have an ideal that is completely unlinked to the thing we are changing
    Gaya Ethaniel: Freedom to...?
    Fefonz Quan: freedom to choose where to go without been pulled like a donkey
    Fefonz Quan: carrot in front of a donkey can me a motive, but i don't consider it ideal
    Fefonz Quan: (ideal motive)
    Wol Euler: I meant a figurative carrot and an illustrative donkey :)
    Fefonz Quan: sure, i know :)
    Wol Euler grins
    Fefonz Quan: i just think that ideal means development or evolution
    Wol Euler: exactly! so do I!
    Fefonz Quan: but evolution that has some ending point
    Storm Nordwind: Why an ending point?
    Wol Euler: ah, there we might possibly disagree :)
    Fefonz Quan: where everything must stop
    Fefonz Quan: but if we are talking about evolution that keeps on going
    Fefonz Quan: then i would go with that, but then where is the "ideal" point standing?
    Storm Nordwind: I think Wol may mean the ideal is the direction not a location. Right?
    Wol Euler: if you mean "ideal" as a cultural construct, as a motivator - yes, storm, exactly
    Wol Euler: well said
    Wol Euler: that is why it moves ahead of us.
    Wol Euler: ideal is "north" not "edinburgh"
    Storm Nordwind can vouch for that!

    Not that I have anything against Edinburgh. Oh no. Certainly not. Honest. I've just chosen to live in Glasgow, that's all. ;)

    We continue to discuss the idea of what a particular ideal might materialise as, and how that may change through time.

    Wol Euler: north is still elsewhere even when I arrive at Edinburgh
    Fefonz Quan: so it's "north" today, but will be "east" tomorrow
    Wol Euler: perhaps; and if so, why not?
    Wol Euler: perhaps when we get close enough to north we'll discover that we don't like it; that we misunderstood it
    Storm Nordwind nods
    Fefonz Quan: we totally agree on that
    Wol Euler: for many decades "communism" was an ideal, then people tried it and found that it didn't actually solve the problems it claimed to address
    Wol Euler: it's still an idea, even an ideology, but it's hardly an ideal any more
    Fefonz Quan: and it wasn't on the first place, that's my point
    Wol Euler: we know that now ...
    Fefonz Quan: and if it changes all the time, it takes out the meaning from the word "ideal"
    Wol Euler: no, I disagree.
    Wol Euler: ideal is relative not absolute, I think.
    Fefonz Quan: and call it "moral", "temporal direction" etc.
    Wol Euler: "ideal" does not need to overlap completely with "perfect"
    Wol Euler will shut up and let someone else talk now
    Fefonz Quan: so i can have many "ideals" to choose from on every moment?
    Wol Euler: yes, of course.
    Wol Euler: one for each aspect of your life
    Storm Nordwind: And depending on your current personal motivation
    Wol Euler: your ideal of religion is not your ideal of footwear
    Wol Euler: yes :)
    Fefonz Quan: no, some for each aspect, i can decide between the "communist" and the "capitalist"
    Storm Nordwind: And your sense of priorities

    Ah... "priorities". Another word; another idea. More fuel for the debate!

    Wol Euler: ideal is what lets you have priorities to decide between
    Storm Nordwind: I would say the other way round
    Wol Euler laughs happily.
    Fefonz Quan nods
    Wol Euler: do tell.
    Storm Nordwind: Priorities determine which ideals you will pursue or leave
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Wol Euler: mmmmm, maybe :) that is tactics, not strategy.
    Storm Nordwind: No
    Storm Nordwind: It is true strategy
    Wol Euler considers.
    Storm Nordwind: Ideals are the tactics, the short range
    Storm Nordwind: And they change
    Storm Nordwind: My priorities stay the same over long periods
    Wol Euler: I think I am using the term "ideal" to cover what you call a "priority".
    Gaya Ethaniel: brb
    Storm Nordwind: Then, if so, you should be able to order your ideals in a list
    Wol Euler raises an eyebrow. By deciding how much energy I am willing to devote to each, for instance?
    Fefonz Quan: i thought also that we are using this word
    Fefonz Quan: and jumping between it's different meanings
    Wol Euler: yes, fefonz, that is probably true.
    Fefonz Quan: quote:1. a conception of something in its perfection.
    2. a standard of perfection or excellence.
    3. a person or thing conceived as embodying such a conception or conforming to such a standard, and taken as a model for imitation: Thomas Jefferson was his ideal.
    4. an ultimate object or aim of endeavor, esp. one of high or noble character: He refuses to compromise any of his ideals.
    5. something that exists only in the imagination: To achieve the ideal is almost hopeless.
    Fefonz Quan: (from a web dictionary)
    Storm Nordwind: If that is your criteria for ordering priorities (sorry, ideals) then yes. It's not mine. Because then the criteria or sorting mechanism becomes the priority, and that is not so for me

    But my extended comment was lost in the excited discussion!

    Fefonz Quan: WOl uses no. 4, while i thought of no.1
    Wol Euler frowns and reads back.
    Gaya Ethaniel: back
    Fefonz Quan: ( i also agree with no.5) :)
    Pila Mulligan: the mundane (real) world demands Pila's presence -- nice chat, folks -- bye bye
    Storm Nordwind: Bye Pila!
    Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Pile
    Wol Euler: bye pila, take care
    Fefonz Quan: bye Pila ;)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Pila :)
    Wol Euler: I was thinking actually more of 3 (and indeed 5): the ideal of "instant personal communication without physical presence" which made Edison invent the telephone
    Wol Euler: and indeed made Nokia make smaller better batteries
    Wol Euler shuts up again.
    Fefonz Quan: so i think i have no argue with that
    Gaya Ethaniel: I was hoping for a good discussion... it has been more than good so far :)

    Gaya is spot on!

    Wol Euler: perfection and ideal are to me quite separate concepts, somehow, which I hadn't really grasped before
    Storm Nordwind holds off equipping people with weapons
    Wol Euler: heheheheh
    Gaya Ethaniel: [so don't feel you need to shut up Wol :)]
    Wol Euler: awww ty :)

    So what does "perfection" mean, if anything?

    Fefonz Quan: i do feel that even if you define ideal as "how i will improve this or that"
    Fefonz Quan: then applying it to a world might be problematic
    Gaya Ethaniel: So perfection is one with the dead-end?
    Fefonz Quan: loose end :)
    Storm Nordwind: Interesting. Perfection is a word I never use. Ideal is a word I only normally use with a sense of irony! ;)
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah...
    Wol Euler: as I see it, yes, gaya, perfection is static, the end of evolution.
    Gaya Ethaniel: And ideal is subjective and relative?
    Fefonz Quan: and thus - perfection for me is unreal, even unwanted in a sense
    Wol Euler: compared to "perfection", yes
    Wol Euler: yes, fefonz, unwanted.
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah...
    Wol Euler: ideal = freedom of action, perfection = fixed destiny, no choice
    Storm Nordwind thinks that perfection may well be a meaningless concept

    Talk of weapons as an 'aid' to discussion a while back prompted Gaya to distribute pink squeaky hammers to everyone! Meanwhile Fefonz makes a statement that we come back to later.

    Fefonz Quan: infact, - i tried to avoid saying it so far -
    Fefonz Quan: PaB is kind of "being and feeling as in the ideal moment"
    Fefonz Quan: and then - the next ideal moment, and the next....
    Wol Euler nods
    Storm Nordwind: Lovely image. Thank you Fefonz
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Fefonz Quan: lol
    Fefonz Quan: but then - it is the exact opposite of Wol's definition
    Fefonz Quan: thanks gaya:)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Click on the person you want to hit Fefonz [when not sitting]
    Gaya Ethaniel: yw :)

    We all stand up and a brief interlude of much needed silliness breaks out as we thwack each other with the pink squeaky hammers. Perhaps Gaya thinks we've finished because she suggests that we need to carry on this discussion next week. And why not? :)

    Gaya Ethaniel: So when is the second instalment on Ideal?
    Wol Euler chuckles
    Gaya Ethaniel: Next week? :)
    Wol Euler: heheheh
    Fefonz Quan: wow, Wol, i wouldn't do that if i saw this samurai sword before :)
    Wol Euler: no worries, I havent figured out how to use it yet
    Storm Nordwind sends a batch of HeartPikopikaHammers to all major war zones in the hope that here's a better way of resolving problems
    Wol Euler nods
    Gaya Ethaniel: aaww :)
    Storm Nordwind: Sure we can talk about ideals again next week!
    Storm Nordwind: And perfection
    Storm Nordwind: And change
    Storm Nordwind: And priorities
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Wol Euler: and hammers
    Storm Nordwind: Oh yes. Definitely hammers

    But we want to continue RIGHT NOW! So we do, unravelling Fefonz's statement. Is "changing" the opposite to "being"? Is "stopping" still "changing"?

    Fefonz Quan: i was just in the middle of the argument...
    Fefonz Quan: :)
    Fefonz Quan: hammers, yes
    Gaya Ethaniel: I know Fefonz you got me all tangled up again
    Wol Euler: yes, I wondered what you meant.
    Gaya Ethaniel: [14:14] Fefonz Quan: but then - it is the exact opposite of Wol's definition
    Fefonz Quan: exactly - because in WOl's definition - ideal as a motive - it drives me to DO, CHANGE something
    Fefonz Quan: where in PaB - it just cause me to BE, STAY in the moment
    Fefonz Quan: - the exact opposite operation
    Wol Euler: but is that not a change? does it not change your usual not-being, not-in-the-moment way of small-B-being?
    Wol Euler: are you always, at every instant of your life, in the state of PaB induced tranquillity?
    Wol Euler: or is that state an ideal that you change your state-of-self to become, while meditating?
    Fefonz Quan: while being, - which change are we talking about?
    Fefonz Quan: or did you mean the on-going practice and it's effect?
    Wol Euler: yes
    Storm Nordwind: Interesting. There is a certain PaB related state (ES) that I consider an ideal (non-ironic), but I am rarely in it. Now... what changes does it drive me towards? Hmmm...
    Wol Euler: when you meditate and feel that effect, you are feeling it by virtue of its being different to your state before and after (I think)
    Fefonz Quan: even if i "feel" a change, i don't DO almost anything in order to "get it" (i think)
    Fefonz Quan: the other way around - i try to stop doing.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Just different states for me... not one state better than the other as in ideal
    Wol Euler: right, but that is itself a change, a doing. You DO "stop"
    Wol Euler: or you wu wei it :)
    Fefonz Quan: before we go into that difference, which i feel is more subtle than what we talked about before
    Wol Euler listens
    Fefonz Quan: well... i wanted to say that in the previous discussion we talked about clear actions
    Fefonz Quan: here the different between being and doing while in meditation is and interesting one - but much more fine and subtler
    Fefonz Quan: it turns to the classical question - are we practicing in order to get to a goal
    Fefonz Quan: (which contradicts being in some sense?)
    Gaya Ethaniel: This reminds me of what Pema and Stim were talking about the other day... what we trying to do is not about something to reach/get at...? hm...
    Fefonz Quan nods
    Storm Nordwind takes a pragmatic view. Whichever way works for you :)
    Fefonz Quan: and for Wol's qiestion - i do feel that stopping somehow differs from regular doing
    Wol Euler: mmmmmm yes.
    Fefonz Quan: it "feels" different, not on the linguistical level
    Gaya Ethaniel: So 'doing PaB' is not relevant to the ideal debate in a way?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Because Fefonz you are not trying to improve or reach a goal right?
    Fefonz Quan: it is relevant as an opposition to the "ideal" ideal :)
    Wol Euler: perhaps it is, in the way that the PaB state of mind, of Being, is an ideal that motivates us to modify our behaviour
    Fefonz Quan: in that sense i agree, Wol
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah...

    Wol told us a poignant story.

    Wol Euler: I'm trying to remember a Woody Allen short story I read some time back, about a very shallow man who hears that his friend is in hospital, dying of cancer. He overcomes resistance and revulsion and fear and visits him.
    Wol Euler: And falls in love with one of the nurses, after which he visits several times a day, while his friend sinks to death.
    Wol Euler: Near the end, the friend takes his hand and whispers how much his presence has meant to him during these days, and dies happy in the knowledge that he had a true friend#s love.
    Wol Euler: the friend was only there to try to pick up the nurse.
    Wol Euler: but does that invalidate the dying man's feeling of having been comforted?
    Fefonz Quan: no
    Storm Nordwind: No. of course not
    Storm Nordwind: All is in perception
    Wol Euler smiles and brushes something from her eye.
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Fefonz Quan: it's a nice story, Wo
    Wol Euler: :)
    Storm Nordwind remembers the saying, "We are what we perceive"
    Wol Euler nods
    Wol Euler: and also "we become that which we regularly do". By pretending to be a comfort, the shallow man comforted.
    Fefonz Quan: i ws going to quote FOrest Gump on that
    Wol Euler: please do :)
    Fefonz Quan: but forgot the exact words :)
    Wol Euler: http://imdb.com
    Storm Nordwind: hmmm... maybe not Wol in this case. The shallow man did not comfort. The dying man took comfort.
    Fefonz Quan: "stupid is what stupid does" ?
    Wol Euler: ah, but "took" from where?
    Gaya Ethaniel: From within I guess...
    Storm Nordwind: From himself Wol.

    We were joined, even at this late hour, by a nearly-new visitor.

    Samuel Okelly: good evening every1 :)
    Samuel Okelly: may i join you?
    Wol Euler: hello samuel
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello
    Storm Nordwind: Hello Samuel. Have you been here before?
    Wol Euler: yes, of course, samuel
    Samuel Okelly: just the once storm
    Wol Euler: we're pretty informal.

    Fefonz Quan: in some way, the comforting man did intend to come on the first place
    Fefonz Quan: and he too got rewarded for that
    Fefonz Quan: resulting in more visit for the good of both of them

    Storm Nordwind: We're running a long session it seems Samuel ;)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Fefonz Quan: i'll have to leave soon...
    Samuel Okelly: well im not sure hw long i can stay this evening but i had a great discussion about buddhism yesterday evening
    Fefonz Quan: though i really enjoy our talk here
    Wol Euler: likewise, fefonz, thank you.
    Storm Nordwind: It's been a good one. Thank you everyone for joining in
    Wol Euler: bonus karma points for us all, tonight!
    Fefonz Quan: thanks, Wol, Gaya and Storm
    Gaya Ethaniel: Thank you :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: I can't wait for next week
    Storm Nordwind: Cool! Great Gaya :)
    Storm Nordwind: Bye for now Fefonz
    Wol Euler: bye fefonz, take care
    Samuel Okelly: tc Fe
    Fefonz Quan: bye All :)
    Wol Euler: brb
    Gaya Ethaniel: ok
    Storm Nordwind: Gaya are you staying?
    Storm Nordwind: Samuel, we are often done by 2:00 PM SLT
    Storm Nordwind: Tonight we went on longer
    Samuel Okelly: ahh i see
    Gaya Ethaniel: I will probably head to bed soon but wait for Wol to come back
    Storm Nordwind: Where are you in RL?
    Samuel Okelly: i forget wthe names of the two femake avs iw as speaking to yesterday .. :(
    Samuel Okelly: i am in ireland
    Storm Nordwind: OK. We are all in Europe here and it is getting late
    Storm Nordwind: But if you turn up at 9pm in future that would be the best!
    Samuel Okelly: i will try :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Samuel Okelly: i will look forward to that :)
    Storm Nordwind: That's 9pm Ireland and UK time
    Samuel Okelly: sure
    Storm Nordwind: We rotate who is here
    Samuel Okelly: 9pm every day is that?
    Gaya Ethaniel: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Informatio...dian_Timetable
    Storm Nordwind: But some of us come regularly anyway!
    Storm Nordwind: It's actually every six hours
    Gaya Ethaniel: 9 am, 3 pm, 9 pm, 3 am GMT each day
    Storm Nordwind: 1/7/1/7 Second Life Time
    Wol Euler: back, reading
    Samuel Okelly: ahh yes i remember noiw
    Storm Nordwind: Or as Gaya says for us
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Good night then Storm, Wol and Samuel
    Samuel Okelly: ok folks... ill shoot off but hope to see you again soon :)
    Storm Nordwind: Goodnight
    Samuel Okelly: tc every1 :)
    Wol Euler: we'll be here :)
    Wol Euler: take care, samuel
    Gaya Ethaniel: Catch up soon again Wol. Hope RL goes smoothly
    Storm Nordwind: We'll be delighted to chat again with you soon Samuel
    Wol Euler: ty gaya
    Storm Nordwind: Bye for now Gaya
    Wol Euler: bye for now, take care

    Only Wol and I are left now. It is late. I think about the scribe who will read these words.

    Storm Nordwind: Well I better post this quick for the scribe! :)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Storm Nordwind: Be warned - it takes a lot of work!
    Wol Euler: I liked your piece very much, Storm. You set us a very high standard
    Storm Nordwind: You are so kind
    Wol Euler smiles. Only the truth.
    Storm Nordwind: I thought Solo had set the bar very high as it was!
    Wol Euler: mmhmm, also true.
    Storm Nordwind: But it takes a lot of time to read, and take notes
    Storm Nordwind: And it takes a lot of time to craft an article
    Wol Euler nods. I am vaguely apprehensive about that already.
    Wol Euler: but I'm pleased to see the variety of approaches, that all have been welcomed
    Storm Nordwind: Yes
    Wol Euler: I was going to bring up your point about the acceptance that is brought to unusual thoughts and ideas here, during the conversation about ideal worlds
    Wol Euler: but the convo moved on before I'd formulated the thought
    Storm Nordwind nods
    Storm Nordwind: Good point though
    Storm Nordwind: A great debate
    Wol Euler: definitely.
    Wol Euler: it would be immodest to flag one of one's own logs as "full of wonderfulness" but the predicate was earned
    Storm Nordwind smiles
    Storm Nordwind never looks at the tags
    Wol Euler: I'll try to shut up once in a while next time :)
    Storm Nordwind shakes his head
    Storm Nordwind: I'm glad I did just the right amount of needling before stepping back ;)
    Wol Euler: heheheheheh
    Wol Euler: you got us moving, all right!
    Storm Nordwind: hehe!
    Storm Nordwind: A good horse runs at the shadow of the whip
    Wol Euler whinnies
    Storm Nordwind: Well I must head for RL
    Wol Euler: I too, alas. 'night Storm, sleep well.
    Storm Nordwind: You too Wol. Bye for now
    Wol Euler: take care

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