2009.01.17 13:00 - Dreams, meditation, everything in between

    Table of contents
    No headers

    Aurora Kitaj was guardian. Within minutes of her arriving, Zen, Friend and Allan arrived. It was Zen's first visit to PaB. The session began with greetings and Zen being informed about the meetings and shown the wiki http://playasbeing.wik.is/

    Aurora Kitaj: thanks for coming along to PaB http://playasbeing.wik.is/ here's the wiki and just so you know there are 4 sessions a day every day and they are recorded
    Aurora Kitaj: and posted up on the wiki
    Aurora Kitaj: http://playasbeing.wik.is/
    Aurora Kitaj: the sessions are open to all and discussion can range quite widely
    Aurora Kitaj: depending on what participants feel is important at the tim
    Zen Arado: ok
    Aurora Kitaj: Hi Allan, come and join us
    Zen Arado: Hi Allan
    Friend Oliva: Hi, Allan
    Allan Whiteberry: Hi Everyone
    Aurora Kitaj: Is this your first session Allan and Zen? I know that Friend was here last week
    Zen Arado: Yes
    Allan Whiteberry: No, I have been before
    Zen Arado: I usually go to Zen meetings
    Zen Arado: or conversation cafe
    Aurora Kitaj: I'm afraid that my chat isn't coming out in the order that I'm typing it lol
    Aurora Kitaj: so don't be suprised if it sounds a bit disjointed



    Scath arrived

    Zen Arado: ther's Scathach
    Aurora Kitaj: ;-)))
    Zen Arado: Hi Scath
    Aurora Kitaj: Hi Scath
    Aurora Kitaj: nice to see you again
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Friend, Allan
    Allan Whiteberry: Hello Scathach
    Friend Oliva: Hello, Scathach nice to see you
    Aurora Kitaj: now once members have decided on a topic, we try to stick to that, but there's no point in waiting in silence until more people arrive
    Aurora Kitaj: so is there anything on people's minds that you would like to discuss?
    Aurora Kitaj: Zen, you often go to Zen meetings
    Zen Arado: yes
    Friend Oliva: Is dreams a good topic?
    Aurora Kitaj: or conversation cafe
    Zen Arado: I'm a practicing zen buddhist
    Aurora Kitaj: I don't know these can you say anything about them?
    Zen Arado: yeah sure
    Zen Arado: baout what?
    Aurora Kitaj: Sorry Scath, my chat is coming out at different times to when I type it lol
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Zen Arado: lag
    Aurora Kitaj: yes
    Aurora Kitaj: dream is a great topic
    Zen Arado: about zen Aurora?
    Zen Arado: or dreams?
    Friend Oliva: I'm open for all topics...but do you all like to talk abouts dreams?
    Zen Arado: sure
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, dreams are interesting:)
    Friend Oliva: Do you remember your dreams...I guess Zen you do?
    Zen Arado: sometimes
    Zen Arado: usually only the ones before I wake
    Zen Arado: and they fade quickly
    Friend Oliva: when I meditate I can better remember my dreams
    Zen Arado: oh
    Friend Oliva: Are dreams sort of real?
    Zen Arado: no and I think life is a dream too
    Zen Arado: largely
    Aurora Kitaj: how depressing... sorry lol
    Zen Arado: a waking dream
    Friend Oliva: me too, Zen
    Zen Arado: why Aurora?
    Aurora Kitaj: so I'm going through all this ***** in rl and it's a dream
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Zen Arado: why shoud that be depressing?
    Zen Arado: :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: but a very realistic dream:)
    Friend Oliva: ...yes, a very realistic dream
    Zen Arado: we are fooled by it
    Aurora Kitaj: well perhaps it isn't but my life and my children's well being depends on playing the day which I can handle,
    Friend Oliva: by dreams or by life?
    Aurora Kitaj: but if it's not even real what's the point in going to work? Having children?
    Aurora Kitaj: *playing the game
    Zen Arado: but there is an underlying reality
    Aurora Kitaj: oh
    Friend Oliva: ...yes, I think so too, Zen
    Friend Oliva: There must be a realitiy behind it
    Aurora Kitaj: this is really interesting
    Scathach Rhiadra: and we have to fully engage with it, to live
    Zen Arado: do you feel bad if you have a bad dream for a long time?
    Aurora Kitaj: I have such a literal understanding of these ideas
    Zen Arado: on waking
    Zen Arado: anyone?
    Aurora Kitaj: I cannot seem to get my head around them ;-)
    Friend Oliva: Yes, Zen I had actually this night a bad dream
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, I have often woken up and felt 'disturbed', for want of a better word
    Zen Arado: I used to as well
    Friend Oliva: And I feld depressed afterwards
    Zen Arado: it's becouse we take them too seriously i think
    Zen Arado: they are only thoughts
    Zen Arado: agree?
    Friend Oliva: When I'm dreaming it is real, that's
    Friend Oliva: why I get upset about it
    Zen Arado: because we hold onto it
    Friend Oliva: ...it effects my nerviose system
    Zen Arado: instead of letting it go
    Zen Arado: agree?
    Scathach Rhiadra: and the same for the waking dream?
    Zen Arado: ah ha yes Scath
    Zen Arado: thats what I think
    Scathach Rhiadra: clinging to our perceptions, instead of letting go
    Zen Arado: we take our thoughts too seriously
    Zen Arado: yes thoughts are useful but they are just thoughts
    Friend Oliva: but it is fun to keep to your thoughts, Zen
    Zen Arado: we shouldnt let ourselves get tossed around by them
    Zen Arado: oh ye true Friend
    Scathach Rhiadra: easier said than done:)
    Allan Whiteberry: is your "self" different from "you"?
    Zen Arado: yes thats where we nedd meditation
    Allan Whiteberry: Your thoughts are part of you
    Zen Arado: I'm sorry Im putting Buddhist ideas across
    Zen Arado: or new age ones
    Zen Arado: oh yes
    Zen Arado: you can't stop thinking
    Scathach Rhiadra: well, how would you define 'self' and 'you', allan?
    Allan Whiteberry: They are the same
    Friend Oliva: Aurora, have we lost you...I'm sorry, if the topic doesn't suite you
    Zen Arado: have you heard of lucid dreaming?
    Aurora Kitaj: no
    Allan Whiteberry: vaguely
    Friend Oliva: What are these?
    Zen Arado: it is Toltec wisdom
    Zen Arado: Carlos Castenada
    Aurora Kitaj: no sorry friend it suits me fine.. it's my kids
    Allan Whiteberry: Is lucid dreaming when you realize it is a dream?
    Aurora Kitaj: taking me away for a second
    Zen Arado: the old shaman don uan taught how to stay lucid when dreaming
    Friend Oliva: Are your kids not sleeping yet?
    Scathach Rhiadra: ah, like waking in a dream
    Zen Arado: yes Allan
    Aurora Kitaj: ;-(
    Zen Arado: you can be awake and control the dream
    Friend Oliva: :-)
    Aurora Kitaj: they're in bed lol
    Zen Arado: :)
    Allan Whiteberry: That happents to me usually just before I wake up
    Friend Oliva: Okay, controling dreams
    Zen Arado: there is a technique
    Zen Arado: you concentrate on one hand if I remember correctly
    Zen Arado: I'm not sure what good it does though :)
    Aurora Kitaj: listens
    Friend Oliva: It would be fun, at least
    Zen Arado: do any of you put importance on dreams?
    Zen Arado: think they reveal things?
    Aurora Kitaj: I try not to
    Friend Oliva: Yes, but I don't interpretate them.
    Aurora Kitaj: I'm afraid, because I tell my kids not to take nightmares seriously
    Zen Arado: exactly Aouora
    Friend Oliva: e.g. if my life is good, my dreams are also good...normally
    Scathach Rhiadra: apart from sort of organising your experiences from the day, I wouldn't put any importance to them
    Zen Arado: don't we often dream about things that are going on in our lives?
    Aurora Kitaj: yes, but as children, I expect we all experienced very nasty nightmares
    Friend Oliva: Yes, Zen
    Aurora Kitaj: how to do interpret these, I thought it was about learning
    Aurora Kitaj: because learning can be painfult
    Friend Oliva: Dreams have alot to do with the subconsiuosnes
    Friend Oliva: sorry, for my english
    Zen Arado: sorry ive just invited a friend

    Boone arrived and was greeted

    Zen Arado: Hi Boone
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Boone:)
    Friend Oliva: Hi, Boone
    Zen Arado: we are talking about dreams
    Boone Enoch: HI Zen, Scathach, everyone:)
    Zen Arado: don't analysts still use dreams ?
    Aurora Kitaj: Hello boone, nice to see you... please take a seat
    Zen Arado: in their practice?
    Aurora Kitaj: Let me give you an idea about what we are discussing today
    Scathach Rhiadra: I believe some of them do
    Aurora Kitaj: dreams
    Friend Oliva: Do you remember your dreams, Boone?
    Boone Enoch: I did when I was younger, not so much now.
    Boone Enoch: more fragmented now.
    Zen Arado: they often express fears I think
    Zen Arado: anybody have recurrent dreams?
    Scathach Rhiadra: does anyone think time seems to be different in dreams?
    Friend Oliva: Not always...I dream about everyday stuff
    Zen Arado: yes Scath
    Friend Oliva: Yes, Scath time goes by much slower in dreams
    Friend Oliva: the worldly time...I mean
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, that is what I find
    Zen Arado: I dream I am flying
    Zen Arado: very often
    Friend Oliva: great
    Zen Arado: now I can!
    Friend Oliva: It must be a nice feeling, Zen
    Zen Arado: yes in SL I mean
    Aurora Kitaj: Very freudian
    Zen Arado: or I dream about old work anxieties
    Zen Arado: some of them from 40 years ago!
    Aurora Kitaj: giggles
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Aurora Kitaj: when you were a baby?
    Zen Arado: thanks Aurora!
    Boone Enoch: I've had dreams about having exams in college and being unprepared for them.
    Zen Arado: yes me too
    Friend Oliva: ...and were you unprepared?
    Boone Enoch: anxiety attacts.
    Aurora Kitaj: humiliation at work is a classic
    Boone Enoch: yes, in the dreams I hadn't been to class in weeks and didn't even know what the subject was.
    Zen Arado: yes happened to me to
    Friend Oliva: yes, that that the subconsiosness fears comes in dreams up front
    Aurora Kitaj: perhaps we were all at the same virtual college lol
    Friend Oliva: Last night it was the same with me
    Zen Arado: old anxieties seem very common for dreams
    Zen Arado: Oh?
    Zen Arado: maybe we bury them and they need to be worked out?
    Zen Arado: or faced anyway
    Boone Enoch: given a context?
    Boone Enoch: or they need to be put into a context?
    Zen Arado: maybe thats waht dreams do
    Friend Oliva: I think our subconsciousnes has alot with dreams to do
    Scathach Rhiadra: going back to the ooint about our waking lives being a dream...
    Scathach Rhiadra: has anybody read or heard the chinese story of the butterfly's Dream?
    Zen Arado: no ?
    Friend Oliva: no, Scath
    Zen Arado: please tell
    Boone Enoch: butterfly dreamed it was a man?
    Scathach Rhiadra: I read it when I was a child and it really affected me
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, Boone, a man had a dream one night, that he was a butterfly..
    Friend Oliva: Kafka
    Scathach Rhiadra: the dream was so realistic, he lived the butterfly's whole life
    Scathach Rhiadra: and in the morning, he could not decide if he had dreamed of being a butterfly, or if his life was a butterfly's dream
    Friend Oliva: I guess, that's what Zen ment
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Zen Arado: yes how do we know this isn't a dream?
    Friend Oliva: What is life, anyway
    Scathach Rhiadra: well, we can't prove it:)
    Zen Arado: for most of us it is maybe
    Zen Arado: we are immersed in our version of reality which is really just a dream?
    Aurora Kitaj: now that sounds pretty depressing to me to... about the man who thought he might be a butterfly
    Zen Arado: don't see where the depression comes in Aurora?
    Aurora Kitaj: not unless you are married to him
    Aurora Kitaj: sorry to be negative
    Scathach Rhiadra: hmm, he thought his life might be a dream, not necessarily that he might be a butterfly
    Aurora Kitaj: oh
    Zen Arado: no ust trying to see the connection
    Zen Arado: it might be that everything is a waste of time if it is just a dream?
    Scathach Rhiadra: at least that is what I took from the story, I probably didn't tell it completly
    Friend Oliva: Why is dreaming a waste of time? It is not
    Aurora Kitaj: yes, but one of the things that makes animals and humans what they are is that they constantly strive all their lives
    Friend Oliva: What else would we do, or should we do?
    Aurora Kitaj: to reproduce or to protect themseves,
    Zen Arado: if life is a dream it is pointless?
    Aurora Kitaj: why would they do it if it is a waste of time?
    Friend Oliva: What point? What aim?
    Friend Oliva: There seems not to be an aim
    Zen Arado: but if you start to think it is just a dream
    Boone Enoch: that's what our biology programmed us to do.
    Aurora Kitaj: living makes us what we are, into these highly evolved organisms
    Zen Arado: existensonalism?
    Aurora Kitaj: striving, fighting whatever you like to call it
    Friend Oliva: and love
    Aurora Kitaj: now here's where I get confused, wondering if love is just a construct
    Zen Arado: aren't there 2 tpes of dreams?
    Friend Oliva: but it is a nice construct
    Aurora Kitaj: what role does it perform?
    Zen Arado: rem sleep
    Aurora Kitaj: but we are talking about dreams
    Zen Arado: no maybe dreams only occur in REM sleep?
    Aurora Kitaj: not sure
    Friend Oliva: life can be nice, dreams can be nice...our life is always about feeling
    Aurora Kitaj: yes, if only it was like that all the time
    Zen Arado: are daydreams god?
    Scathach Rhiadra: and we have to live our lives, be engaged, even if we realise it is not the ultimate reality
    Boone Enoch: our minds have a need to put things into narratives.
    Friend Oliva: Daydreams can be dangerious
    Zen Arado: yes Boone
    Aurora Kitaj: yes
    Aurora Kitaj: they can raise false expectations
    Zen Arado: yes they take us away from facing reality
    Friend Oliva: Right, you two
    Zen Arado: I did a lot of that when I was a kid
    Aurora Kitaj: me too
    Friend Oliva: They disconnect us in a way from the flow of what is going on in RL
    Friend Oliva: I do it still today
    Zen Arado: yes that is what we are all doing is it not?
    Boone Enoch: and wind up feeling alienated.
    Aurora Kitaj: I don't need to worry about dreams or daydreams these days, too tired, too busy for either
    Zen Arado: that's why they talk about 'awakening' in Buddhism
    Boone Enoch: yes
    Friend Oliva: Aurora, you need a vacation ;-)
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Zen Arado: yes Aurora
    Aurora Kitaj: thank you guys
    Zen Arado: everyone is too busy!
    Aurora Kitaj: yes
    Friend Oliva: We love you...you know
    Zen Arado: 'what is this life so full of care...
    Zen Arado: no time to stop and stare
    Friend Oliva: Kapitalism!
    Zen Arado: maybe
    Friend Oliva: Yes, we need a different system
    Friend Oliva: one that suits us better
    Aurora Kitaj: Isn't it the sweat and grime, the shattered nerves, the twisted synew that keep us healthy and alive?
    Scathach Rhiadra: but also the good things?
    Zen Arado: too much stress
    Aurora Kitaj: If we have too much time to sit around, we loose out?
    Aurora Kitaj: Isn't this what we are designed for?
    Aurora Kitaj: evolved?
    Friend Oliva: We could use that time, to do something whorthwhile
    Scathach Rhiadra: we also have the capacity to appreciate, all that appears to us in living
    Zen Arado: there was a news story on Facebook yesterday.
    Aurora Kitaj: But doing something worthwhile might result in sweat an stress and shattered nerves too?
    Zen Arado: about a great violinist called Joshua Bell
    Friend Oliva: no
    Aurora Kitaj: true Scath
    Zen Arado: can I tell this story?
    Friend Oliva: Aurora, if we do things in a
    Scathach Rhiadra: please do:)
    Aurora Kitaj: please do
    Friend Oliva: slower way than it is not
    Zen Arado: anyway the great violinist stood in a subway in Washington
    Zen Arado: and played Bach on a stradivarius

    Samuel arrived at this point; it was his first time at PaB. Aurora supplied the wiki, explained the ground rules and sought agreement for Samuel’s name to be recorded.

    Aurora Kitaj: Hello Samuel, please come and join us
    Aurora Kitaj: here take as seat
    Zen Arado: and hardly anyone even noticed him!
    Friend Oliva: Hi, Samuel
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Samuel
    Samuel Okelly: hello every1 :)
    Zen Arado: what does that say about the waking dream?
    Aurora Kitaj: Samuel, we are talking about dreams today
    Friend Oliva: We are all somewhere else, Zen
    Zen Arado: exactly
    Zen Arado: we are so un indful of what is going on around us
    Zen Arado: unmindful
    Friend Oliva: Zen, did you try to be in the here and now?
    Zen Arado: yes
    Zen Arado: that's why I practice meditation
    Friend Oliva: I tried it too, but there is a little problem
    Zen Arado: what?
    Friend Oliva: I need to manage my everyday life and
    Friend Oliva: I need to think!
    Zen Arado: meditation does not prevent thought
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Boone Enoch: yes
    Friend Oliva: I mean, at work I have to do heavy thinking...about
    Friend Oliva: how to manage my family
    Zen Arado: of course
    Friend Oliva: I have to do heavy thinking
    Zen Arado: but you do your thinking then come back to the present!
    Friend Oliva: Yes, I try, but as you know
    Friend Oliva: if you start to get involved
    Friend Oliva: with that, it gets harder and harder
    Friend Oliva: to let loose
    Zen Arado: you ust keep trying it takes practice
    Zen Arado: thats all meditation is
    Friend Oliva: And what is so great about a clear mind, anyway?
    Zen Arado: you keep bring your mind back when it wanders
    Boone Enoch: the idea is not to achieve a blank slate.
    Friend Oliva: Meditation is like walking out on life, or?
    Zen Arado: no it is coming back to your life
    Boone Enoch: it's to learn to let go of thoughts and not be enthralled to them
    Scathach Rhiadra: waking up to life:)
    Zen Arado: yes
    Friend Oliva: if I stop thinking?
    Scathach Rhiadra: but you don't stop thinking
    Zen Arado: no you don't stop thinking!!!!!
    Zen Arado: you can't
    Zen Arado: that is what brains do
    Boone Enoch: yes
    Friend Oliva: if my mind is very quiet...how do you call it?
    Zen Arado: sometimes it is quiet
    Zen Arado: sometimes it is busy
    Zen Arado: you just notice it
    Friend Oliva: isn't meditation all about "no thoughts"?
    Zen Arado: and come back to waht you are concentrating on
    Zen Arado: usually the breath
    Friend Oliva: or your nose
    Boone Enoch: no it's being aware or the coming and going of thoughts.
    Zen Arado: your thoughts will quiten though
    Boone Enoch: and learning not to be carried away by them.
    Zen Arado: but you don't try to force it
    Aurora Kitaj: Hi Claire, nice to see you ... here come and take a seat
    Friend Oliva: Hello
    Aurora Kitaj: We're talking about dreams... meditation
    Zen Arado: Hi Claire
    Aurora Kitaj: today
    Friend Oliva: For me life gets boring, when I'm not thinking.
    Aurora Kitaj: I can send you a chat log, but it's pretty long,
    Aurora Kitaj: you might prefer to just go with the flow... but happy to send note card if this owuld help
    Zen Arado: your thinking makes you unmindful of the richness of life though perhaps
    Zen Arado: like the people rushing around in the subway
    Zen Arado: and not seeing the beauty around them
    Boone Enoch: you're somewhere else, not there.
    Friend Oliva: ...in an underground, e.g., Zen?
    Zen Arado: yes :)
    Friend Oliva: not in Frankfurt
    Zen Arado: or the Tube Aurora
    Aurora Kitaj: yes
    Scathach Rhiadra: when you learn to be aware of your thoughts and not go following them, you can be mech more centred for when you have to concentrate on thinking, if that makes sense:)
    Friend Oliva: Yes, Scath
    Friend Oliva: and meditation is more healthy
    Aurora Kitaj: Yes, Scath
    Samuel Okelly: does anyone know if I am I right in thinking that the goal of Buddhist meditation is to "free the mind" of everything?
    Zen Arado: there is no goal
    Boone Enoch: brb
    Friend Oliva: Yes, Samuel, I think so too
    Zen Arado: it's getting away from seeking goals
    Zen Arado: at least thats my understanding of zen
    Zen Arado: its just being
    Zen Arado: not doing
    Samuel Okelly: maybe a poor choice of words on my part.., i only meant to infer purpose and objective
    Friend Oliva: Isn't the opposite of what we are doing, Zen...seeking to reach goals?
    Scathach Rhiadra: or some Buddhists see the goal as trying to achieve an awakened mind:)
    Zen Arado: its hard to put inot words
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Zen Arado: but if you strive hard after a goal it can get further away from you
    Friend Oliva: ...interesting
    Zen Arado: because thats the way we normally behave
    Zen Arado: its more about letting go
    Friend Oliva: ...like looking at an experiment an messing it up
    Aurora Kitaj: this is facinating, and I'm really trying hard to follow, but clearly my mind needs so training in this areas
    Samuel Okelly: i fail to understand how it is possible to achieve such a state of mind that is free of thought (other than a state of deep clinical unconsciousness)
    Zen Arado: it really takes meditation practice not logical thought
    Friend Oliva: ...inner silence and concentration...hard to achive
    Samuel Okelly: so such activity concedes that it is in itself not a logical pursuit?
    Scathach Rhiadra: hmmm, a state of awareness is not really unconcious
    Boone Enoch: back
    Zen Arado: wb
    Aurora Kitaj: wb Boone
    Boone Enoch: thx
    Scathach Rhiadra: wb
    Zen Arado: you have to practice not think
    Zen Arado: it isn't an intellectual understanding
    Friend Oliva: Meditation is a very nice feeling
    Zen Arado: thats what I mean
    Zen Arado: yes but things can come up
    Friend Oliva: it is worthwile
    Zen Arado: that are unpleasant
    Zen Arado: from your past
    Samuel Okelly: Isn’t that a contradiction as "to practice" would seem to imply a conscious effort to do something eg think in a certain way?
    Zen Arado: sorry if I am pushing this Aurora
    Boone Enoch: practice in a sense of commitment to it.
    Friend Oliva: ...had anyone seen things in a window that were not there`? Zen, you?
    Aurora Kitaj: np Zen
    Boone Enoch: ongoing commitment.
    Zen Arado: we all see according to our conditioning
    Zen Arado: I don't think we all se the same reality
    Friend Oliva: ...after meditation. e.g. or when we wake up...
    Samuel Okelly: yet such a commitment would by its very nature surely be a conscious commiment no?
    Friend Oliva: I have seen fishes
    Zen Arado: some people have great visions
    Zen Arado: others see nothing
    Zen Arado: zen teachers tell you that great experiences are ust imagination
    Aurora Kitaj: is this like near death experiences?
    Zen Arado: it is the ordinary here and now that is miraculous
    Friend Oliva: Isn't life a dream, anyway?
    Aurora Kitaj: can they tell us anything about the workings ofthe human mind?
    Zen Arado: I don't know Aurora
    Zen Arado: for most of us yes I think
    Zen Arado: you study the mind from inside
    Friend Oliva: Yes
    Boone Enoch: it helps to discover what motivates us.
    Friend Oliva: ...and that our mind takes something for
    Friend Oliva: reality
    Friend Oliva: that isn't
    Zen Arado: yes
    Aurora Kitaj: facinating
    Friend Oliva: ...but what is behind life?
    Friend Oliva: the 1 mio. question?
    Zen Arado: who knows?
    Friend Oliva: I would like to know
    Boone Enoch: it just is.
    Aurora Kitaj: evolution?
    Friend Oliva: Yes, evolution
    Zen Arado: no harm in wondering and investigating
    Zen Arado: thats our nature
    Friend Oliva: But it is crasy
    Friend Oliva: we all work and live
    Friend Oliva: and don't now why
    Friend Oliva: Most of us even
    Friend Oliva: forget or never realise
    Friend Oliva: that is isn't all
    Samuel Okelly: A similarly interesting question for me is how do we “know” anything? how do we justify even to ourselves what is true and valid belief?
    Friend Oliva: I think, therefor I am
    Zen Arado: that's a big area in philosophy Samuel -- epistemology
    Samuel Okelly: solispsism does really answer that though does it?
    Zen Arado: does it?
    Friend Oliva: Maybe we are god...who is dreaming all this?
    Samuel Okelly: maybe
    Zen Arado: metaphysical speculation
    Zen Arado: a lot of it is a waste of time I think
    Samuel Okelly: by what process do each of us here judge our beliefs to be valid?
    Scathach Rhiadra: ah, what is solispism?
    Friend Oliva: ...the father, the holy gost and Jesus
    Aurora Kitaj: Ah, Gilles is just on line, perhaps we should invite to discuss the finer points in that area
    Zen Arado: what are beliefs?
    Samuel Okelly: it is the premis that all we can ever know is "the self"
    Scathach Rhiadra: ty:)
    Boone Enoch: the belief that you as a conscious being is the only thing that yu can be certain that exists.
    Samuel Okelly: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/solipsism
    Zen Arado: I don't believe there is a 'self'
    Friend Oliva: Yes and no, Zen. Maybe it
    Friend Oliva: is a question of definition
    Zen Arado: where is it?
    Samuel Okelly: even if we do not require absolute certainty... how do we justify to ourselves our beliefs to valid and just
    Zen Arado: I don't believe in beliefs :)
    Zen Arado: they are just frozen opinions
    Zen Arado: sory I am getting too zen!
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: our felt experiences are all we have to go on
    Aurora Kitaj: One cannot get too Zen Zen!
    Zen Arado: ha ha
    Boone Enoch: :)
    Samuel Okelly: Zen, can you explain the purpose of such grammatical contradictions such as “i” don’t believe in the “self”… and I don’t believe in beliefs…..?
    Zen Arado: no
    Zen Arado: show me the self
    Samuel Okelly: i see :)
    Zen Arado: it doesnt exist
    Friend Oliva: the self is a construct
    Samuel Okelly: you dont believe in you?
    Zen Arado: even in philosophy
    Friend Oliva: Yes, i believe in me...but what does it say?
    Zen Arado: 'I' am ust a bunch of mental and physical processes
    Scathach Rhiadra: some would say there is no fixed, inherently existant self that is independant of everything else
    Zen Arado: exactly
    Samuel Okelly: "just" a bunch of porocesses? implying no value or worth?
    Boone Enoch: yes, Scathach
    Zen Arado: the worth is what you attach to this bunch of processes
    Friend Oliva: Our self is a representative of our subconsciousness
    Samuel Okelly: that is precisely my point... why add "just" a bunch of processes?
    Scathach Rhiadra: the interrelatedness and interdependance gives everything worth
    Aurora Kitaj: Hello Tenk, nice to see you again
    Zen Arado: to distinguish from some mysterious unchanging thing
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Tenk
    Friend Oliva: Hello Tenk
    Zen Arado: that is often implied by 'self'
    Samuel Okelly: that would imply that "our self" is NOT representative of our consciousness
    Aurora Kitaj: we are talking about dreams and meditation, but the conversation is 'wide-ranging'
    Zen Arado: I do not see the connection?
    Tenk Kidd: Thank you for inviting me - I'll sit quiet and listen :)
    Aurora Kitaj: You know that these discussions are recorded on a chat log
    Zen Arado: with the subconscious?
    Aurora Kitaj: and posted on the PaB wiki, so if you want to stay anonymous, please let me know.
    Aurora Kitaj: Np Tenk
    Aurora Kitaj: ^^
    Zen Arado: no self is a tenet of Buddhism
    Zen Arado: I also studied it in phiosophy
    Zen Arado: it is calle 'personal identity' there
    Zen Arado: a belief? I don't know
    Samuel Okelly: isnt that simply a form of extreme nuhilism?
    Zen Arado: if you look for it you can't find it
    Samuel Okelly: nihilism
    Zen Arado: why?
    Zen Arado: this bunch of processes still gets great enjoyment out of life
    Samuel Okelly: if "no self is a tenet of Buddhism" then that would , by defination, correspond to nihilism http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/nihilism
    Zen Arado: nihilism is a kind of despair to my mind
    Friend Oliva: it's the opposite of nihilism
    Samuel Okelly: Philosophy. a. an extreme form of skepticism: the denial of all real existence or the possibility of an objective basis for truth. b. nothingness or nonexistence.
    Zen Arado: everything is meaningless?
    Scathach Rhiadra: ah, but saying there is no inherently existing self, is not the samwe as saying nothing exists
    Zen Arado: why does no self equate to that?
    Scathach Rhiadra: same*
    Zen Arado: yes Scath
    Samuel Okelly: no self" = "nothingness"
    Friend Oliva: no
    Boone Enoch: no, Samuel
    Zen Arado: no the processes are still there
    Scathach Rhiadra: no, our idea of a fixed self does not exist
    Zen Arado: yes its the 'fixed' part that is wrong
    Zen Arado: I think
    Scathach Rhiadra thinks that did not come out right:)
    Boone Enoch: a self that is permanent and unchanging point of reference does not exits.
    Zen Arado: yes
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Samuel Okelly: but when you bang your finger in the door it is "you" that feels the a unique physical pain (as opposed tp a shared experience)
    Zen Arado: we are changing every moment
    Zen Arado: along with everything else
    Aurora Kitaj: listens
    Boone Enoch: pain exists.
    Zen Arado: there is a pain
    Friend Oliva: ...like SL exists
    Zen Arado: but is always changing
    Scathach Rhiadra: is my 'self' the same self that existed five minutes ago?
    Aurora Kitaj: Hello Bobby, please feel free to come and join us, come and take a seat..
    Zen Arado: no
    Aurora Kitaj: ;)
    Samuel Okelly: to say something changes, either in part or in whole, is not the same as saying that it does not exist
    Scathach Rhiadra: exactly
    Samuel Okelly: because "the self" changes is not reason of itself to deny its existence
    Zen Arado: or that it does exist
    Scathach Rhiadra: but if have an idea that our self is non-changing and think of it as such..
    Zen Arado: there is no self TO change !
    Boone Enoch: there is no "fixed" you.
    Boone Enoch: everything is in flux.
    Samuel Okelly: a similar argument has been applied the notion of "time" eg there is no "now"
    Friend Oliva: ...but I do always the same mistakes
    Zen Arado: I don't understand time
    Scathach Rhiadra: or no past or future , just 'now'?
    Zen Arado: we put a construction on it
    Zen Arado: a linear one
    Zen Arado: but thats ust our construction isn't it?
    Aurora Kitaj: heard that
    Aurora Kitaj: very interesting about the absence of time
    Aurora Kitaj: or flexible time
    Zen Arado: doesn't relativity change that?
    Samuel Okelly: the same is argument is used to suggest that what has been nolonger exists, what will be has not existed and trying ti pinpoint the "now" as a fixed unit or variable is impossible
    Samuel Okelly: relativity has explained that i think
    Boone Enoch: thanks for the discussion. very interesting but I have to log.
    Boone Enoch: Good bye everyone.
    Friend Oliva: Night, Boone
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Boone
    Zen Arado: ok bye Boone
    Zen Arado: see you again
    Zen Arado: maybe I should go too
    Zen Arado: how long do these meetings last Aurora?
    Friend Oliva: I have to leave soon, too.
    Scathach Rhiadra: normally only 1 hour, this has been a marathon:)
    Samuel Okelly: :)
    Zen Arado: :)
    Aurora Kitaj: usually an hour
    Samuel Okelly: thank you for the interesting points every1 :)
    Aurora Kitaj: so we've gone on over the time. Could reasonalbely
    Aurora Kitaj: wind up now if ppl agree
    Zen Arado: yes thanks everyone
    Zen Arado: sure
    Friend Oliva: Thanks to you all
    Aurora Kitaj: Thanks everyone for making this such an incredibly informative session
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, thank you everyone, for the great discussion:)
    Samuel Okelly: tc every1 :)
    Aurora Kitaj: especially to those who are visiitng for the first time
    Scathach Rhiadra: namasté
    Aurora Kitaj: Tenk, Samuel,
    Samuel Okelly: see you all again soon! cheerio for now :)
    Aurora Kitaj: Bye all
    Zen Arado: sure bye all
    Friend Oliva: Have a nice day
    Friend Oliva: Do are always doing a good job, Aurora
    Aurora Kitaj: Thank you Friend... you are too kind

    Discussion finishes, farewells are said, ppl leave

    Viewing 1 of 1 comments: view all
    Originally written on 21:47, 05 Feb 2009
    Hello Aurora, I restored this from the autolog database after Scathach tipped me off to your comment about having had a scrambled log file on your computer.
    Posted 06:11, 9 Apr 2010
    Viewing 1 of 1 comments: view all
    You must login to post a comment.
    Powered by MindTouch Core