2009.01.21 19:00 - Invasion of the Body Snatcher

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    stevenaia Michinaga was the guardian on call for the discussion and the comments are stevenaia's


    Threedee and I began by touching on some follow-up information I had passed on to him regarding a previous discussion on "Space"  http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/2009/01/2009.01.11_19%3a00_-_Space_and_vedic_architecture

    stevenaia Michinaga: Evening ThreeDee
    stevenaia Michinaga: Hello Ade
    Threedee Shepherd: Hi steve
    stevenaia Michinaga: did you get those link I sent the other week?
    stevenaia Michinaga: Vastu links
    Threedee Shepherd: Yes, thanks
    Threedee Shepherd: I need to spend more time with them
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, the "course" on that was one site was more informative
    Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm
    Threedee Shepherd: lots of ways to think of space...
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, i was was just reading a Pema paper partially on space
    stevenaia Michinaga: http://www.ids.ias.edu/~piet/publ/turning/tuc2.html
    stevenaia Michinaga: sometime I am amazed what interests me
    Threedee Shepherd: Yes, I have seen and browsed that. another thing to read. "To much print, too little time:)"
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Corvi
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hiya.
    Threedee Shepherd: Hi Corvi
    stevenaia Michinaga: you cut your hair?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods. it grows fast.
    stevenaia Michinaga: laughs
    Corvuscorva Nightfire snickers.
    Threedee Shepherd: I have not noticed the knife before?
    stevenaia Michinaga: it was hiding under her hair
    Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs at Steve...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I found occasion to wear it yesterday.
    Threedee Shepherd: ohhh?
    Threedee Shepherd: Does therein lie a story?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire thinks
    Adelene Dawner nudges Three. "You can tell him to shove off if you want, Corvi."
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I was talking to a friend about something and the idea of protection came to mind..it was Haga...so it was one of those sort of role plays.
    Threedee Shepherd: Hey, SHE mentioned it!
    Squee: We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles at Ade...I know..I wouldn't have a problem shoving anyone off as needed.
    Threedee Shepherd: I assume that as a given and would not take offense ^.^
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nodsnods and ruffles Three's mane.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: honestly, I don't remember the context well enough to tell a story.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: just that I was ready to use it as needed.

    A topic emerges .....

    Threedee Shepherd: OK, there may be a PaB topic here, about the emotional impact of the idea of protection in SL, where you can't get hurt physically.
    stevenaia Michinaga: I noticed in my travels that there are places in SL that you can loose your life, I assume temporarily in a game environment
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods Yes, steve..there are.
    Adelene Dawner: You just get TP'd home if you 'die' though.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: the place I role play is like that..what it takes is a hud that records "hits"
    stevenaia Michinaga: so ThreeD, you can get hurt
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: in the place I do the role play..you're just immobile.
    Adelene Dawner: (or something else if there's a HUD script, yeah)
    Threedee Shepherd: hurt metaphorically.
    stevenaia Michinaga: so you play a rock
    Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs. "something like that"
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: after 5 minutes you leap up and resume play.
    stevenaia Michinaga: like if we arrived here and we were the pillows and the pillows sat on us... and talked

    ...and changes

    the discussion  centers around you and your avatar and the impact of it and changes to to have you the self, resulting in some interesting perspectives from the group.

    Threedee Shepherd: the topic: How does our identity with our Avatar develop over time and how might that relate to self?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs.
    stevenaia Michinaga: mine is a minor extension of self, what develops is me, not my avatar
    Adelene Dawner thinks she answers that mostly in the other direction... the av is fully adjustable and I know it. It changes when I change, and only very rarely the other way around.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire thinks...."I am my avatar...but my avatar..isn't all of me..and both of us change all the time"
    stevenaia Michinaga: avatars are tike little "tin men" the hearts lay within us, not our avatars
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods to that.
    stevenaia Michinaga: or scare crows
    stevenaia Michinaga: points to brain outside of SL looking in
    Adelene Dawner: Though I definitely have seen the av change me, too... not drastic, but putting a bit of me on the av, visible, and seeing it every day, does have an effect.
    Adelene Dawner: Or even something that's not-me
    Threedee Shepherd: Two observations: 1. Even thinking about coming to PaB as other than this Lion evokes feelings of *strangeness* and anxiousness.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods to Ade.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: really?
    Adelene Dawner grins at Three.
    stevenaia Michinaga: perhaps we should change, you can come as me, I can come as you
    stevenaia Michinaga: then you have an excuse to feel strange
    Threedee Shepherd: Perhaps it is a social thing equivalent to RL changes--I imagine people would ask way (NT people that is)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nodsnods at that...only one thing stranger than you, here, Steve...
    stevenaia Michinaga: well I would have thought of exchanging with you corvi, but I would;t give you back
    Adelene Dawner chuckles at Three. "I might not ask, but I'd wonder."
    Adelene Dawner wonders if anyone else here has picked up a shape-shifting habit, even for a little while?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs at Steve.
    Adelene Dawner can't see Steve, he's a cloud - did she miss something?
    Threedee Shepherd: Second observation: My login character/AV in the build we are doing in the Teen Grid needs to be "owner" of everything we build and script there, for now. Yesterday, Ade needed to do such work and went in as me. I went as the main owner character. It was VERY disquieting to see me (the Avatar Ade was using) acting independent of me the real person.
    stevenaia Michinaga: I was once "loaned" someone else's avatar while they were away, and I must say, it was quit strange, not only knowing how to act, but how to type (for me)
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, I understand, a very strange quality about that
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods. I feel myself.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: as Corvi.
    Threedee Shepherd: Ade was not breaking any rules of the TG going as me, because she is authorized to be there as a specific av. (In case you are listening;)
    Adelene Dawner snerks. "If they're listening, I think we're all in trouble anyway." ^.
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    stevenaia Michinaga: lol
    Threedee Shepherd: Well, you can try to tell that to a strict "Human Subjects Approval Committee" ;>
    stevenaia Michinaga: I assume we are all not body snatchers here, well, maybe for a short time if we dare
    Adelene Dawner will stick to her own... humans, meh, and I already have a perfectly good lion av. ^.-
    Threedee Shepherd: So, we have just talked about ways we identify with our avs that cause emotional responses in us for real.
    stevenaia Michinaga: so were you wondering why should it matter or why it does mater when our avatar changes or is someone else? Three
    Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm
    Threedee Shepherd: the Buddhists would say something about too much connection with the false idea of self
    Corvuscorva Nightfire shrugs. "til it's time to let it go..it stays."
    Adelene Dawner thinks it has to do... exactly, Three... with the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves.
    Adelene Dawner lags. :P
    Corvuscorva Nightfire looks pouty.
    stevenaia Michinaga: I had the felling the avatar vessel had a fragile quality and that I may damage the person who I assumed ... to the SL world view
    Adelene Dawner: (And, Three, I pretty obviously still *do* that, even if I do it in little bits rather than big chunks)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hiya, Claire!
    Adelene Dawner: Same idea, different direction, Steve - that you might somehow mess up the story of who that person is.
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Claire
    Threedee Shepherd: Hi Claire, come join us.
    Claire Beltran: Hello, all. ^-^/
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    stevenaia Michinaga: Ade, did begin ThreeDee give you a different sense of anything, or was it jsut work?
    Adelene Dawner: I know for me, one of the most dramatic examples of the av changing me was with my birdwoman av... y'all remember that one, right? With those pink wings? They 'had to be' pink, because I wanted the color near the arms to be purple... and colors are deeply meaningful for me, and I'm *not* pink. Or... wasn't. ^.^
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Adelene Dawner: The Teen Grid av was just an av, to me - I hadn't seen it with Three at the controls yet, so it hardly could be otherwise.
    Claire Beltran: Not pink?
    Adelene Dawner: Pink is a very social color.
    Threedee Shepherd: Yes, my AV is a "story" (or perhaps storyline) and that plays in parallel with my RL storyline, at least to a degree.
    stevenaia Michinaga: Story?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Threedee Shepherd: Here is another example: I met a potential client in SL yesterday, for the first time. I was Lion and made a conscious decision NOT to change to businessperson-human, even though that av is pretty casual.
    stevenaia Michinaga: takes popcorn from Corvi
    Corvuscorva Nightfire looks at him in surprise and offers him some.
    Threedee Shepherd: My life is a story I tell myself as I go along to keep things sensible and me sane.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire giggles.
    Adelene Dawner snickers at Three.
    Threedee Shepherd: Really, I can hardly remember every word I say and move I make, my memory of me is selective by necessity.
    Claire Beltran is painfully restless.
    Threedee Shepherd: in SL or RL, Claire?
    Adelene Dawner thinks trying to tie one's selves-through-time together with a story may do more harm than good.
    Threedee Shepherd: Oh, Ade, there is an intense discussion in there.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Adelene Dawner is up for it, but we only have 20 minutes here.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs.
    stevenaia Michinaga: have you ever had the opportunity to radically change your avatar, Claire and sense any difference in who the avatar was?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire offers Steve and Claire some more popcorn.
    Threedee Shepherd: I said a moment ago (because I have a log) "I can hardly remember every word I say and move I make, my memory of me is selective by necessity."
    Threedee Shepherd: That is a simple fact of brain/memory bandwidth and the nature of long-term memory. So,
    Threedee Shepherd: why/how do the things I remember, which are an essence of *me*, chosen, or are they random, or what?
    Adelene Dawner: I know mine aren't random. There's definitely an algorithm, and some of it is conscious.
    Adelene Dawner: Including some of the decisions not to remember things, though that's tricky.
    Threedee Shepherd: OK, and the result of that process of *selection* is what I mean by thee "story I tell myself"
    Claire Beltran: I've never really tried to change my avatar. I'm worried about what that might say about me.
    Adelene Dawner: ok, that's not quite what I meant, Three.
    Threedee Shepherd: I cannot effectively tell myself not to remember something.
    Adelene Dawner: 'this happened, that happened' is memory. but 'this happened because, that happened because, as a result of those I am this and will do that' is an almost entirely different process.
    Threedee Shepherd: Claire, IF I only know you in SL and not in RL, why does it matter what it would say about you?
    Adelene Dawner: Claire: Lots of people never shapeshift, no worries. But it might be worth trying, sometime. ^.^
    stevenaia Michinaga: I used to be a bluehaired woman, and I think that was more me than this :)
    Threedee Shepherd: I agree the "becauses" ARE a made up story. I was not referring to THAT story.
    Claire Beltran: It matters because I wonder what I should be thinking of me... and my apparent inflexibility.
    Adelene Dawner: 'Trying' was an important part of my thought, up there. I wasn't talking about the simple sum of what you remember living through.
    Threedee Shepherd: So we probably are in agreement, Ade
    Adelene Dawner nods at Three.
    Adelene Dawner: Claire, like I said, lots of people don't 'shift. You don't have to if you don't want to.
    stevenaia Michinaga: interesting ThreeDee, a lovely creature
    Threedee Shepherd: chambered Nautilus
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods. you wore this once before?
    stevenaia Michinaga: looks difficult to type in
    Threedee Shepherd: elsewhere, I think, and perhaps here the day I got it from Grendel's
    Adelene Dawner: I think you wore it here once, briefly.
    Threedee Shepherd: One click makes the change
    Threedee Shepherd: Oh well with all these tentacles a keyboard is a snap ;>
    Adelene Dawner: Shape-shifting can be a powerful thing, though, if you really identify with the shapes.
    Claire Beltran: That's the problem. I... can rarely identify with things.
    stevenaia Michinaga: lol, maybe I should try typing with tentacles
    Adelene Dawner: (And there's a specific reason I haven't, recently.)
    Threedee Shepherd: I happen to be very fond of this creature in RL, and feel comfortable being it.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: interesting...
    stevenaia Michinaga: have you ever changed your avatar dramatically Corvi?
    Adelene Dawner: For me... I'm not at all sure I can put it into words, not briefly enough for here. But the lion hasa specific... not even meaning, but set of characteristics, that I'm working on exploring in myself. That means taking the form in a long-term sense... I even think as a lion in RL, mostly, which Corvi may have noticed...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Squee: The answers are everywhere.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire looks at Three's human avatar with interest. "yep, Steve...
    Threedee Shepherd: Squee, so are the questions, but moreso!
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I've been crow, wolf and guy here at PaB.
    Adelene Dawner: And changing to other forms when they'd be convenient means not learning how lion-me deals with those situations. Though I will admit that I've gone to wolf a few times in the last few months... that's a very, very powerful shape for me.

    A new face arrives with some distracting conversation.....
    He did not directly respond to our request to post his comments , so his name has been edited
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Charles
    Charles Xxxxxx: meditating, huh...
    Charles Xxxxxx: pretty relaxing?
    stevenaia Michinaga: discussion group
    Charles Xxxxxx: nice fake bird noises
    Charles Xxxxxx: discusing what?
    Threedee Shepherd: And, for fun.....
    stevenaia Michinaga: the nature of reality, perfect topic for SL
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Charles we record these would you be willing to have your words posted on a public wiki?
    Charles Xxxxxx: do i have to put clothes on?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: not to have your words posted.
    stevenaia Michinaga: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Information/Play_As_Being_in_a_Nutshell
    Adelene Dawner: Good question. Anybody have a problem with a 'no' answer?
    stevenaia Michinaga: we are clothes optional
    Threedee Shepherd: hiss- Corvi ^.^
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Claire?
    Threedee Shepherd: Corvi
    stevenaia Michinaga: thanks for sharing Charles
    Adelene Dawner laughs.
    Charles Xxxxxx: let's open up our heart shakras
    Threedee Shepherd: If I do will the Zen spill out?
    stevenaia Michinaga: nice dragon, ThreeDee, I see you are nakid too
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I'd kinda prefer clothes, actually, Charles.
    Adelene Dawner puts her paw over her muzzle and devolves into laughter.
    Charles Xxxxxx: so what was the topic before I interrupted
    Charles Xxxxxx: zeros and ones
    Charles Xxxxxx: do you folks live underground?
    Charles Xxxxxx: I'm not putting clothes on, the winged tiger isn't
    Charles Xxxxxx: POOP!
    Corvuscorva Nightfire pokes you in the Bumm with the knife.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: np
    Charles Xxxxxx: did you record that?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Charles Xxxxxx: my computer is on a desk
    stevenaia Michinaga: we were actually about to finish up
    Charles Xxxxxx: in a room
    Threedee Shepherd: The topic was what is the meaning to me of my Avatar. Your current state IS highly relevant
    Threedee Shepherd: She is a winged LION
    stevenaia Michinaga: we meet for an hour or so 4 times a day
    Charles Xxxxxx: How do you commit suicide in second life?
    Charles Xxxxxx: are you serious?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire pokes harder.
    Charles Xxxxxx: four hours a day?
    Threedee Shepherd: Unplug your computer
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, feel free to review the chat logs on the Wiki site I posted
    stevenaia Michinaga: Wiki site
    Charles Xxxxxx: sorry, could I get the link one more time?
    stevenaia Michinaga: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Information/Play_As_Being_in_a_Nutshell
    Adelene Dawner: The meetings are all optional - there's, what, 40-some people in the group? Most of 'em come at least a few times a week.
    Threedee Shepherd: Everyone who is a member is NOT at every session
    stevenaia Michinaga: good point ThreeDee :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: feel free to stop by anytime Charles
    Charles Xxxxxx: peace out mutha fuckas, my second life is no more
    stevenaia Michinaga: that'll do it
    Threedee Shepherd: Xxxxxx translates as watersnail, I believe
    stevenaia Michinaga: any thoughts on a title for tonight log?
    stevenaia Michinaga: lol, Three
    Threedee Shepherd: Who Was That Avatar, Anyway?
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Corvuscorva Nightfire looks at Ade...
    Adelene Dawner: wut?
    Claire Beltran: ... *sigh*
    Adelene Dawner: 'sup, Claire?
    stevenaia Michinaga: well I have a good picture and title for tonight
    Adelene Dawner leans on Claire.

    The hour passed

    stevenaia Michinaga: I think I'll be off, if the conversation continues, feel free to send it to me
    stevenaia Michinaga: night all
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: See ya, Steve.
    Threedee Shepherd: bye, Steve
    Claire Beltran: Bye...
    Adelene Dawner: 'night, Steve 

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