2009.01.29 13:00 - Does severe lag objectively exist?

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    The guardian for this session was Storm Nordwind. The few comments are Storm's. It seems pointless adding more. There was a lot of lag, even in merely receiving my own chat text. I thought at first it must be my ISP but apprarently not. The conversation is hard to piece together at times. Some of my comments appear in a strange order. Some seem to get answered by other people before I even ask them. Some never appear. Make of it what you will!

    Fael Illyar: no, it's SL
    Fael Illyar: everyone has that
    Wol Euler: there was a note in the status blog saying htat they had resolved a database issue, that always causes chaos :)
    Storm Nordwind: Oh OK thanks!
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Fael Illyar: hmmh... perhaps they're using the sim servers for something extra.
    Wol Euler: wow, the sim's time delation is nearly 1. That is very high
    Storm Nordwind: Hmm... phrases like "only marginally usable" come to mind

    It was someone's birthday!

    Storm Nordwind: Fael, this is your first real life birthday with PaB. What experiences have the two things together brought you?
    Fael Illyar: Mad crowds :)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Fael Illyar: with me at the center of attention :P
    Fael Illyar: (if you allow a bit of an exaggeration)
    Storm Nordwind: That seems to be an experience and a judgement perhaps. But any realisations? :)
    Fael Illyar: no judgement, just exaggeration about the sizes :P
    Fael Illyar: not today, no.
    Fael Illyar: at least none that stuck around until now as ones.
    Fael Illyar: well, the "mad crowds" bit hints at one of them.
    Fael Illyar: I'm slightly surprised at the amount of people who came :)
    Wol Euler chuckles.
    Storm Nordwind: How many came?
    Fael Illyar: yesterday and today.
    Fael Illyar: thankfully, the peak of people at once was ... 13 I think.
    Storm Nordwind nods
    Wol Euler: a good sized party in either life.
    Fael Illyar: I'd need to take a count since it wasn't all at once but over 20
    Storm Nordwind: Wonderful
    Fael Illyar: That's the most visitors I've ever had for birthday :)
    Storm Nordwind: And now Wol has rezzed
    Wol Euler: me cheers
    Storm Nordwind: But my messages are being fed back at random
    Storm Nordwind: and I seem to be typing more than sitting still
    Fael Illyar: Ah :)
    Fael Illyar: Perhaps it might be your connection too then.
    Fael Illyar: SL has been slow today but ... perhaps not quite that slow
    Storm Nordwind sighs
    Wol Euler nods sympathetically
    Storm Nordwind: Well I am sorry to have missed everything
    Wol Euler: our scintillating conversation, you mean?
    Storm Nordwind: Perhaps! Sometimes doing all the Kira admin and building and hosting work, and attending the workshops and doing the exercises myself (and doing a 9-6 job), I get spread a little thin! :-/
    Wol Euler: I'm tired just reading the list.
    Wol Euler: mmhmm, I think so.
    Fael Illyar: Yes, me too :)
    Storm Nordwind is thankful for free Google SMS text to his phone from his calendar, otherwise he'd never know where to be and when!
    Wol Euler: :)
    Fael Illyar: Aha! that sounds useful :)
    Storm Nordwind: If it were a drug, I would have a grade A dependency!
    Wol Euler: heheheh
    Wol Euler: is that an attachment? ;-)
    Storm Nordwind looks at see what's attached to his avatar...
    Wol Euler smiles
    Storm Nordwind: It has no inherent existence from its own side, so I suspect not!
    Fael Illyar: but it'd be troubling if it stopped working :)

    When Wol ponders, we often get some sensible discussion going. :)

    Wol Euler ponders. Is that a quality of attachments though?
    Storm Nordwind: A quality of attachments probably includes thinking something has some kind of real existence
    Wol Euler: aaaah, I see. I had taken that the wrong way around.
    Wol Euler: agreed, then.
    Fael Illyar: why "real" before "existence"?
    Fael Illyar: what's unreal existence?
    Storm Nordwind: Unreal as in "imagined or perceived but understood to be ephemeral"
    Fael Illyar: Ah :)
    Wol Euler: I took it to mean "mistaking my perception for external reality"
    Fael Illyar: would that be "to only exist because you can think of it"?
    Wol Euler: rather "because I think of it, it must exist"
    Storm Nordwind: Well that depends on your point of view!
    Wol Euler: shame, disgrace, pain, misfortune
    Storm Nordwind: If you were to take a magical point of view rather than, say, a Buddhist one, if you can think it you can make it real
    Fael Illyar: I keep bumping into "real" ... I find myself somewhat in trouble defining it :)
    Wol Euler: "consensual" perhaps.
    Wol Euler: in the social sense, reality is that which we all agree to.
    Storm Nordwind: Would you say that was the same or similar to intersubjectivity Wol?
    Wol Euler has to think what intersubjectivity means ...
    Fael Illyar too.
    Wol Euler: ah, right. "the sharing of subjective states by two or more people"
    Wol Euler: yes, there is definitely an overlap.
    Wol Euler: because that which we both believe to be reality need not be absolutely true.
    Storm Nordwind: True? What's that?
    Wol Euler: exactly.
    Wol Euler: I read the wikipedia article about hte tree falling in the forest :)
    Wol Euler: "true" would be the noise generated by the phyical event.
    Storm Nordwind: Ah yes!
    Wol Euler: "real" would be the sound perceived by a nearby sensory apparatus
    Fael Illyar: no "real" would be the sound perceived by a mind through sensory thingie of somekind.
    Wol Euler: you and I would hear the true noise of a tree falling and believe it to be the sound of a rock falling down the hillside
    Wol Euler: our consensual reality is not objetively true

    I was wishing that the lag was not objectively true!


    Wol Euler: yes, Fael, true. A tape recorder left running would record a noise, which would be interpreted as a sound by the later listener
    Wol Euler: sound implies mind, yes.
    Wol Euler: storm's been typing for four minutes now. Do you suppose he's crashed?
    Wol Euler: hello solo!
    Fael Illyar: Hi Solo :)
    Storm Nordwind has not crashed. He's just waiting for stuff he typed in 5 minutes ago to appear
    Wol Euler: !
    Wol Euler: that's possibly a new record.
    Solobill Laville: Heya, folks! :)
    Storm Nordwind is not typing now either :) Hi Solo
    Wol Euler smiles
    Fael Illyar smiles at Solo.
    Solobill Laville: and Birthday girl :)
    Fael Illyar giggles cutely.
    Fael Illyar: Oh, Wol crashed.
    Storm Nordwind: There's a lot of it about it seems
    Fael Illyar: We were talking about "real"
    Solobill Laville: wb Wol
    Wol Euler: ty
    Solobill Laville: Good subject :)
    Wol Euler: hello allan
    Fael Illyar: Hello Allan :)
    Allan Whiteberry: Hello. I guess I'm late

    I try asking a question again that never came through. Solo hears my second attempt before I do. Fael doesn't hear for a while at all. It's all very frustrating trying to make sense of it.

    Storm Nordwind: Yes we were. And I said he following, but it never appeared...
    Solobill Laville: Hi, Allan
    Allan Whiteberry: Hi Everyone
    Storm Nordwind waits for the message to fail to appear again
    Solobill Laville: Good question, Storm
    Wol Euler: :)
    Storm Nordwind: Maybe we'd agree. Or maybe not! But is there anything that is objectively true. And even if there was, how could it be proved to be so?
    Fael Illyar: yes, the message again failed to appear it seems :)
    Solobill Laville pauses at opening his mouth
    Solobill Laville: Wow...that is really bad...
    Solobill Laville: Seems fine to me today
    Solobill Laville is thinking about Storm's question
    Fael Illyar: seems a bit bad today
    Fael Illyar: I'm having no problems of that kind with my own lines though
    Wol Euler: I ...
    Wol Euler: the hard part of Storm's question seems to me to be the part about proving it.
    Solobill Laville: I think the rub is in the word "objective"....
    Fael Illyar: does it need proving?
    Solobill Laville: That is another angle to approach it, Fael :)
    Storm Nordwind notes that Stim's workshop starts in just a few minutes!
    Wol Euler: wehther or not; if one _could_ prove it
    Wol Euler: apropos truth and proving things
    Wol Euler: has it been a week already?
    Wol Euler: wow.
    Wol Euler: seems like about 36 hours to me.
    Fael Illyar: hmmh... I guess I'd better prepare mother computer to be able to receive voice again
    Storm Nordwind: I know!
    Fael Illyar: Yes, it doesn't feel like it was tha long ago ... although on the other hand it does.

    I prepared to try and ameliorate the comms problem.

    Storm Nordwind: Would you mind if we break early? I'd like to do a full reboot before going to Stim's thing
    Solobill Laville: np :)
    Wol Euler: ok by me.
    Storm Nordwind: OK then. See you there. If you're going!

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