2011.03.05 13:00 - Two Guardians are better than none

The Guardian for this meeting was Aphrodite Macbain, who had to leave and was relieved by Aggers.  The comments are by Agatha.

Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya lu!
Lugh Fehr: hellow aph how you doing today?
Lugh Fehr: cute racoon hihi
    --BELL--
Aphrodite Macbain: that's no racoon, that's my himalayan panda called Ping!
Lugh Fehr: oh! hey ping
Aphrodite Macbain: She has a brother valled Pong
Aphrodite Macbain: they play together alot
Lugh Fehr: ohhh ! so cute :D
Lugh Fehr: he reminds me of my fat cat friend
Aphrodite Macbain: he he
Aphrodite Macbain: is he rich and fat?
Aphrodite Macbain: and wears aa fur coat?
Lugh Fehr: she dosnt have a dime but she lives like a princess and yes always wears a black and white fur coat her name is sally daboo
Aphrodite Macbain: in SL?
Lugh Fehr: no in rl hehe
Aphrodite Macbain: Is that her real name??
Lugh Fehr: i also have to male ones paninu and gurdinu ...yes its her real name
Lugh Fehr: two*
Aphrodite Macbain: What kind of names are they?
Lugh Fehr: panina is malta word for a bun hehe so paninu and gurdien is a word for mouse so gurdinu
Lugh Fehr: and u in malta at the end of a word makes it male

At this point, I broke off from dancing at Fracture to see who was claiming the log, knowing that Aphro had requested a replacement via email.
Agatha Macbeth: Oh, you're here Aphro
Aphrodite Macbain: I often wonder if we are affected by our names
Agatha Macbeth: Thought you weren't coming tonite
Lugh Fehr: hey agatha...yes alot of poeple do go ecsactly whit their names heh
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Agatha. Since no one responded I hunted down this one resturant that has wifi!!
Agatha Macbeth: Ah, ok
Aphrodite Macbain: and ill be able to be ehre for about 15 minutes
Agatha Macbeth: I just came from Fracture to see if anyone was taking the log
Agatha Macbeth: I'll claim it and post it if you want
Aphrodite Macbain: you're very kind
Lugh Fehr: sexy outfit!
Agatha Macbeth: :)
Lugh Fehr: :P
Aphrodite Macbain: I would love it if you did. I'm ignoring my friends right ow
Agatha Macbeth: Ok, np
Aphrodite Macbain: Thank you so much. I'll be home on Tuesday

I click on the fountain...
Agatha Macbeth: That should do it Aph
Agatha Macbeth: Take care
Aphrodite Macbain: Bless you Agggie!
Agatha Macbeth: Bye, bye Lugh

....and return to Fracture...
Lugh Fehr: byebye :)
Alfred Kelberry: meep!
Alfred Kelberry: hi :)
Lugh Fehr: hey meep men :)
Alfred Kelberry: nice to see you guys
Alfred Kelberry: i see zen in shorts
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Lugh Fehr: hey beach zen
Lugh Fehr: hey ooOOooo
Zen Arado: Hi all :)
Alfred Kelberry: sam :)
oO0Oo Resident: Hi everyone ntsy :)
Zen Arado: Hi Sam ;)
Zen Arado: I'll sit at your feet Alf
Zen Arado: the feet of the master
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Zen Arado: :)
Alfred Kelberry: boxed one :)
Zen Arado: oh boxed one - what can you tell me ?
Alfred Kelberry: um...
Alfred Kelberry: *ponders*
Zen Arado: is my life still going to be a mess ?
    --BELL--
Lugh Fehr: hehe he came in a box and now hes unrapped
Alfred Kelberry: "rapped"-yo :)
Zen Arado wrings hands despairingly
Lugh Fehr: wrapped* heh
Zen Arado: thought you wouldn't makw it Aph?
Alfred Kelberry: zen, what's a real mess is "the road" movie i've watched recently. after that, my life seems so comfortable and blessed.
Zen Arado: oh?
Zen Arado: Bing Crosby and Bob Hope?
Alfred Kelberry: gray, scary, lonely, depressing world of apocalypse
Aphrodite Macbain: Big Crsoby
Alfred Kelberry: the fun part is that it actually can happen
Zen Arado: hope I'm not around to see it
Lugh Fehr: 2012 is pretty close
Zen Arado: hey that means I wish I was dead
Alfred Kelberry: yes, those who were unlucky turned to suicide
Zen Arado: but no I don't
Alfred Kelberry: zen, you just can't be considered alive without hope
Zen Arado: I watches a film about Allen Gunsberg last week
Zen Arado: Ginsberg
Zen Arado: don't believe in hope
Alfred Kelberry: what do you believe in?
Zen Arado: prefer to be hope less
Zen Arado: nothing
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Zen Arado: ust take waht comes
Zen Arado: even bad typing
Zen Arado: :)
Zen Arado: Hi Wester :)
Alfred Kelberry: zen, did you have some expectations coming here? of a nice chat? people around the circle?
Lugh Fehr: hi wester
Alfred Kelberry: wester-san :)
Zen Arado: didn't know what would happen
Wester Kiranov: hi zen, aph, boxy, lugh
Zen Arado: or even if anyone would turn up
Alfred Kelberry: zen, so you did ponder this and i assume wished for someone to be present?
Zen Arado: nah..was ponderless
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Alfred Kelberry: ok
Zen Arado: but glad someone was present
Zen Arado: happy to see you all
Alfred Kelberry: i find it impossible to go on without hope
Zen Arado: hope in what?
Alfred Kelberry: something
Zen Arado: but that's living in the future isn't it?
Zen Arado: you have to live in the here and now
Zen Arado: I lived most of my life in the future
Zen Arado: what a waste
Zen Arado: so much to enjoy in the present that I missed
Lugh Fehr: hope inplies that now is less better then later
Zen Arado: yes
Lugh Fehr: it could be usefull at certine places but i agree whit zen theirs higher enjoyment to be had
    --BELL--
Zen Arado: "Consistent with Zen teachings, the author stresses over and over the need to be present, to be in the moment. She points out that when we live mainly in our daydreams and hopes, we miss actual life as it is happening. We give our life over to hopes, thoughts and fantasies. We daydream, we hope for something special, something ideal “ and when it doesn't come to pass, we are not only disappointed, but also anxious, even desperate."
Zen Arado: that's a review of 'Everyday Zen' by Joko Beck
Zen Arado: that's what I'm getting at
Zen Arado: sorry for lecturing
Zen Arado: :(
Aphrodite Macbain: NO Zen
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye
Aphrodite Macbain: must pooof! Bye! all
Zen Arado: bye Aph
oO0Oo Resident: ByeAph
Lugh Fehr: do you guys whant to hear a wierd song?
Alfred Kelberry: no :)
Lugh Fehr: hehe :P oki
Zen Arado: curious now
Lugh Fehr: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1r-p...eature=related
Zen Arado: hmmmm
Lugh Fehr: i havent heard this artist for long but he has good stuff hehe for me anyways
Zen Arado: it's not bad
Alfred Kelberry: zen, i know the being in the moment concept, but "no hopes, no thoughts, etc" ideas are an utopia for me. it's not practical.
Wester Kiranov: it's quite pretty, in a way
Zen Arado: didn't say no thoughts
Wester Kiranov: (the song)
Lugh Fehr: ideas are well and good but have you seen the flip side?
Lugh Fehr: its just yummie
Alfred Kelberry: any concept brought to an absolute is only good in a philosophical debate and far from reality
Zen Arado: Joko is very practical
Zen Arado: hard teachings
Zen Arado: we prefer our fantasies
Zen Arado: they are impractical I think
Alfred Kelberry: it all starts with an idea which is abstract
Zen Arado: it's actually easier and more practical to live with what is
oO0Oo Resident wonders about how we present fruitionally, as representations of whatever highest good might be drwn from our theories of being
Wester Kiranov: I think living in the present is not abstract at all
oO0Oo Resident: *drawn
Alfred Kelberry: wester?
Zen Arado: perhaps the highest good is found in day to day realities
Zen Arado: I find this hard to learn though
Zen Arado: I like my fantasies
Wester Kiranov: yes zen, i find that hard too, often
Alfred Kelberry: maybe the difference is that some people prefer to stay with their fantasises, but some turn them into a reality
oO0Oo Resident: we can never get enough, of what does not satisfy
Lugh Fehr: i thinck the highest enjoyment comes when you put one and one together and see that you are not seperat and already complete from their its a simple desition to be happie or sad and things like im alone and im such a losser dont seem to bother you any moor
Zen Arado: slightly different kind of fantasy there tho
Wester Kiranov: very true 0oO
    --BELL--
Lugh Fehr: wheres ooOOoo gone?
Zen Arado: agree with Sam
Zen Arado: don't know
Zen Arado: hope I didn't offend her
Zen Arado: that is hope I suppose
Lugh Fehr: hehe
Lugh Fehr: true true its hope
Wester Kiranov: not hope for the future though. hmmm
Zen Arado: yeh
Lugh Fehr: hope for the past? is that any better?
Alfred Kelberry: i don't buy the sit and wait and see what comes concept. you can perfectly live in the present with dreams and hopes and other desires.
Zen Arado: words are so tricky
Wester Kiranov: especially tricky when talking about these kind of things
Zen Arado: I feel they take you away from the present Alf
Zen Arado: I have seen it so often in my own life
Alfred Kelberry: there's a young man from canada who had a wish to climb the mount everest and he finally did it when he was 24 and he enjoyed every minute of the 6 years preparation experience.
Zen Arado: yes but that's more a goal than a hope
Zen Arado: to me
Alfred Kelberry: he could sit home and look at the wall otherwise
Lugh Fehr: tit makes no sense to trade away your desires and hope for a silly promise about bliss someone else is making but if your ever unhappie look into some practises they can be great pleasure and happyness locked inside them
Zen Arado: a very high aim
Zen Arado: but achievable
Wester Kiranov: but being free from hopes and fears etc does not mean you don't have them, just that you don't let them take over
Zen Arado: yes wester
Lugh Fehr: nods
Zen Arado: and if they look achievable...go for it
Wester Kiranov: and if this dream made the man happy for six years, it did not take him away from the present.
Zen Arado: but don't just dream..
Wester Kiranov: it would have if he had only been happy when he reached the top
Zen Arado: plan for action
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: I could sit and dream about clmbing Everset but that's all it could ever be
Alfred Kelberry: wester, that's many if's for something you first hand decline :)
Lugh Fehr: i used to find when i was much moor a desiple of though hehe that id prefer sitting at home remembering the events then actually living them
Zen Arado: yeh Lugh
Zen Arado: we can live in our memories
Wester Kiranov: don't understand you alf
Zen Arado: nearly as bad
Alfred Kelberry: maybe the issue is in the words
Alfred Kelberry: i don't see hope as a dull fantasy
Zen Arado: yes Alf
Lugh Fehr: in the mind you can twist it into a tasty buzz but in the real events whitout a certine distance from thought it becomes dry
Zen Arado: but sometimes when we examine concepts closely they fall apart
Zen Arado: not as balck and white as we thought
Zen Arado: and I think 'hope' is one of those
Zen Arado: it seems great until you think about it
Alfred Kelberry: well, this is how we all are. either you want it or not.
Zen Arado: true
Zen Arado: it's just how I see it
Wester Kiranov: what we need, i think, is something like hope without attachment (or aversion, or indifference)
Lugh Fehr: the trouble whit hope i find that if i hope that im going to be healthy if i do exsersise then instead of giving my all to the excersise im depleated by thincking about the benefects
Zen Arado: yeh maybe
Zen Arado: a kind of optimism
Zen Arado: but not pinning our hopes on it
Lugh Fehr: logic is a good supstitute for hope if i do this that will come no hope in that but still you got the formula
Zen Arado: if we really put everything we can into the present moment things are more likely to turn out well anyway I think
    --BELL--
Lugh Fehr: formula whitout the obsetion and blind faith side
Wester Kiranov: it's time to leave for me. bye.
Lugh Fehr: bye wester
Wester Kiranov: namaste
Lugh Fehr: :)
Zen Arado: bye Wester
Alfred Kelberry: zen, i like buddhist being in the moment. it helps with anxiety or other daylife issues many of us have and this is practical. but when you take it literally and push it into complete detachment, it just loses its sensibility.
Zen Arado: don't see where you get the etachment from?
Alfred Kelberry: that's why i stay away from theology and scriptures
Zen Arado: it is being completely here
Lugh Fehr: it loses sensibility if your not trading it for somthing better
Alfred Kelberry: cause once they get to you, you become too attached to them that you don't see anything else
Zen Arado: you weigh up anything for yourself Alf
Alfred Kelberry: just look at an average flock
Zen Arado: that idea is found many places anyway
Zen Arado: the Stoic s used it
Lugh Fehr: for some scripurs are a sorce of inprisimment for some freedom its just how you use them like anything els
Alfred Kelberry: they believe in whatever the scripture say, but not their own eyes. same with zen or any other scriptures.
Zen Arado: the BUddha told ppl to test everything in their own experience
Zen Arado: and junk it if it didn't ring true
Zen Arado: zen is not a matter of scriptures
Lugh Fehr: what your talking about is the missuse of scripurs not the use of them
Zen Arado: that's why I said I don't have beliefs Alf
Alfred Kelberry: but you do, zen
Zen Arado: I don't need faith
Alfred Kelberry: your disbelief (if you will) is also a belief
Zen Arado: only in obviously true things
Zen Arado: lie impermanence
Alfred Kelberry: you have your own morale code
Zen Arado: beliefs are things that can't change tho
Lugh Fehr: do you belife that you have hands or do you know it? i thinck its a bit diff
Zen Arado: my ideas are open to change
Zen Arado: even a belief in no beliefs
Alfred Kelberry: the church has changed quite drasticly :)
Zen Arado: a belief is something that we aren't completely sure is true
Zen Arado: I think
Zen Arado: don't confuse Buddhism with minotheistic religions
Alfred Kelberry: it's a set of rules that you follow
Zen Arado: what rules?
Lugh Fehr: a belife is supstituting ignorance for false bling picking of others ideas
Alfred Kelberry: those that made you ask this question, zen :)
Zen Arado: I follow some precepts
Alfred Kelberry: ha, call them as you will :)
Zen Arado: but they are merely moral guidelines
Alfred Kelberry: it's a word game
Zen Arado: no - they are quite different from commandments
Alfred Kelberry: ok :)
Zen Arado: not 'thou shalt not'...
Alfred Kelberry: i get it :)
Zen Arado: just obvious things like it's best not to lie and steal
Lugh Fehr: why is it best?
Alfred Kelberry: agree with you on that :)
Zen Arado: cos it will give yo and others problems
Lugh Fehr: it somthies solve them too hehe
Zen Arado: best not to drink too much alcohol etc
Lugh Fehr: they are moor opinions then belifes
Zen Arado: they are open to interpretation
Zen Arado: sometimes you have to lie
Zen Arado: depends on situation
Zen Arado: that's why they are only guidelines
Alfred Kelberry: wakaon
Lugh Fehr: does a scientist have belifes or educated guesses
Alfred Kelberry: :)
    --BELL--
Alfred Kelberry: wakaoff
Alfred Kelberry: ommmmm... :)
Zen Arado: hypotheses Lugh
Zen Arado: don't worry, I won't get angry Alf :)
Alfred Kelberry: why would you be?
Zen Arado: I am used to philosophical debate
Alfred Kelberry: ah
Zen Arado: well some ppl think you shouldn't discuss these things
Lugh Fehr: yeah poeple who get angry when they do hehe
Zen Arado: it is only weighing up different arguments for me
Zen Arado: spent years doing that
Alfred Kelberry: i tend to stay on the practical side of things :)
Zen Arado: that's what philosophy teaches
Zen Arado: someone has to think what is the best way Alf
Lugh Fehr: well imagin a room in which you can go to at all time whitout leaving the situation your in in which your totaly happie and complete what can be moor practical?
Zen Arado: 'practical' isn't practical if misguided
Zen Arado: yes Lugh
Lugh Fehr: and most alternate mind use teachings leas to that
Lugh Fehr: leads*
Zen Arado: read about a man who did a retreat where he sat in a room and did absolutely nothing for 2 weeks
Lugh Fehr: and its easy if you find the right teacher or theaching
Zen Arado: it was really difficult he said
Lugh Fehr: the trouble is most poeple turned it to junk and sells it away or give junk preasnts from his kindness
Lugh Fehr: but it realy gets you into a place where you wake up celebrating life evry day not that their is not transition time when your half that half human sort of say
Zen Arado: quiet around here tonight
Zen Arado: yes Lugh
Zen Arado: think Ill go to perfect paradise for a little while
Lugh Fehr: byebye zen
Zen Arado: I'm dressed for it anyway :)
Lugh Fehr: hehee
Lugh Fehr: do you guys know a nice serios to wacht?
Zen Arado: bye
Lugh Fehr: like rome or somthing thats the last i whachted
Lugh Fehr: byebye
Lugh Fehr: alf any ideas?

At this point, I returned
Agatha Macbeth: Still here Lugh? :)
Lugh Fehr: hehe yes i was just leaving
Lugh Fehr: :)
Agatha Macbeth grins
Lugh Fehr: ill go starts tuders its suppose to be a nice serios
Agatha Macbeth: Aha
Lugh Fehr: i finished rome a lil while back was very nice you should whacht that if you got the tast for it
Agatha Macbeth: Bella Roma
Lugh Fehr: bella macabra roma hehe
Agatha Macbeth: Or should that be bellissima?
Lugh Fehr: hehe :) thets a destination i must visit some time
Agatha Macbeth: I've been there - *many* years ago
Lugh Fehr: yeah nice
Lugh Fehr: :)
Lugh Fehr: its better then to have went in ancient times
Lugh Fehr: its safer hehe
Agatha Macbeth: More swords tho!
Lugh Fehr: have you seen rome the series?
    --BELL--
Agatha Macbeth: Don't think so, no
Agatha Macbeth: I don't watch much TV tho
Lugh Fehr: try it its realy nice especialy if your a bit into histry it shows the different culture perfectly
Lugh Fehr: they not very modernised
Agatha Macbeth: Oh, right
Agatha Macbeth: I'll bear it in mind:)
Lugh Fehr: anyway im off to haze out in front of tuders
Lugh Fehr: hehe
Agatha Macbeth: Okies, take care
Lugh Fehr: byebye :)
Agatha Macbeth: C ya
Lugh Fehr: i thinck its better to wake youp alfie if he sleeps in that position his back is going to be murder in the morning!
Agatha Macbeth: Indeed
Lugh Fehr: :P up up and away
Agatha Macbeth: Well, there's only only me and Boxy left and he's asleep, so I'll stop the recording at this point :p