2011.03.31 01:00 - Ruling Class and Chants

The Guardian for this meeting was Zen Arado. The comments are by Zen Arado. Present were Bertram Jacobus, Pila Mulligan, Stevenia Michinaga, Wol Euler and myself

Bifurcation and Marx:

Pila Mulligan: hi Zen
Zen Arado: Hi Pila :)
Pila Mulligan: how are you
Zen Arado: fine ty
Zen Arado: how are you?
Pila Mulligan: I am fine thanks
Pila Mulligan: :)
Zen Arado: I see two copies of you on my map
Pila Mulligan: hmm, maybe that explains the lagI am getting
Zen Arado: yes maybe
Pila Mulligan: I am bifurcated :)
Zen Arado: you couldn't have two avs with the same name
Pila Mulligan: nope
Zen Arado: ?
Pila Mulligan: Bifurcation means the splitting of a main body into two parts
Zen Arado: yeh
Pila Mulligan: [from wiki]
Zen Arado: or anything
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: I must need to meditate
Pila Mulligan: re-integrate
Zen Arado: came across the word before
Pila Mulligan: I like your avi's hand movements when you tpye
Zen Arado: ty
Pila Mulligan: looks like chi kung
Zen Arado: :)
Zen Arado: think Marx talked about bifurcation
Zen Arado: but can't remember
Pila Mulligan: well, the dialectic is a kinf of trifurcation
Pila Mulligan: thesis, antithesis and synthesis
Zen Arado: only have vague memories of it
Pila Mulligan: me too
Zen Arado: we had to study'The German Ideology' one time
Pila Mulligan: I liked the theory, but the practice got skewered
Zen Arado: it was tough going as I remember
Zen Arado: yeh
Zen Arado: Marx was a bit skimpy about the details of how his ideas could be implemented
Pila Mulligan: well, Lenin got it going then Stalin skewered it
Zen Arado: did you do political philosophy?
Pila Mulligan: no, just traditional philosophy
Pila Mulligan: The ruling class, in ruling the material force of society, is simultaneously the ruling intellectual force of society. They regulate the production and distribution of ideas of their age. As the ruling class changes with time, so too do the ideals and the new ruling class must instill upon its society its own ideas which will become universal. This system will forever remain in place so long as society is organized around the need for a ruling class" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_German_Ideology
Pila Mulligan: but i did history :)
Pila Mulligan: Hegel's dilectic is a very practical thing, as far as I understood it
Zen Arado: there's a lot of truth in Marx
Pila Mulligan: yes, I agree

Ruling classes:

Pila Mulligan: the world today seems to be ruled by a class largely defined by their wealth, they even transcend national identity
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: but maybe it's the nature of us humans to adopt such a way of things
Zen Arado: there were always rulers and leaders
Pila Mulligan: it seems so, we probably are more tribal in terms of heirarchy than we think
Zen Arado: and people who submit to them
Pila Mulligan: still primitive rules
Zen Arado: yeh
Pila Mulligan: and there seem to be more dumb rulers than enlightene dones
Pila Mulligan: enlightened ones*
Pila Mulligan: :)
Zen Arado: in Mrarx's days the classes were more distinct
Zen Arado: yes
Pila Mulligan: yes, indeed
Pila Mulligan: real trinal then, family aristocracy
Pila Mulligan: tribal*
Zen Arado: we still have a Queen
Pila Mulligan: I like it too, although I'm American, -- she's nice
Pila Mulligan: and this big wedding coming up
Pila Mulligan: very romantic
Pila Mulligan: :0
Pila Mulligan: she is just a figuirehead though
Pila Mulligan: it seems
Zen Arado: yeh
Pila Mulligan: probably costs less than the aircraft carrier they willname after her
Zen Arado: the royal family is an anachronism I think
Pila Mulligan: it is indeed
Pila Mulligan: but Britainis prett old
Pila Mulligan: y*
Zen Arado: there is a lot of wealth and privilege there
Pila Mulligan: yep, entrenched aristoracy
Pila Mulligan: in the US we have the best Congress money can buy
Zen Arado: Hi Bertram :)
Zen Arado: :)
Pila Mulligan: hi Bert
Bertram Jacobus: hey pila, zen ! :-)
Pila Mulligan: nice to see you
Bertram Jacobus: ty very much same same ;-)
Zen Arado: well I would be in favour of getting rid of the whole Royal family
Pila Mulligan: we were ruiinating on roylaty andairstocracy
Pila Mulligan: wny Zen?
Bertram Jacobus: hehe. "okey"
Pila Mulligan: why*
Zen Arado: funny how Americans seem to like it
Pila Mulligan: romantic :)
Bertram Jacobus: i like it too, a bit i must confess ;-)
Pila Mulligan: send he over here :)
Pila Mulligan: her*
Zen Arado: and was so surprised Australians want to retain connection to the Queen of England
Pila Mulligan: she'd quit :)
Bertram Jacobus: but ... shouldn´t be too expensive ;-)
Zen Arado: maybe she does a good PR job
Pila Mulligan: well, it may change after she is dead
Pila Mulligan: she is a particularly nice person
Bertram Jacobus: i think, tradition and romance are the reasons for such ...
Zen Arado: yeh
Pila Mulligan: yes, Bert the cost is a factor
Bertram Jacobus: and yes : they present themselves quite well
Zen Arado: saw the Queen with Obama and his wife recently
Zen Arado: she looked so small :)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: the Obamas are both big
Zen Arado: the Obama's are tall yeh
Bertram Jacobus: hehe. i remember that mrs. obama at the first meeting with the queen was a bit informal - when i remember that correctly ...
Pila Mulligan: yes, she was
Pila Mulligan: but the queen seemed okay with it
Zen Arado: she hugged her?
Pila Mulligan: :)
Bertram Jacobus: yeah ! very nice ... ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: yeah - may be that was it - a hug (lol) :-)
Pila Mulligan: like gradnma
Zen Arado: yeh think so :)
Pila Mulligan: grandma*
Bertram Jacobus giggles
Zen Arado: it isn't the done thing :)
Pila Mulligan: wasn't :)
Pila Mulligan: but is now
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: for Michele at least
Bertram Jacobus sings : michell, ma belle ... :-)
Bertram Jacobus: + e
Zen Arado: nice song
Pila Mulligan: hugs the queen so well
Bertram Jacobus: yaaaayaaaahh
Bertram Jacobus: ! :-)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: it is about 10:30 pm here now

Get into music a bit:

Bertram Jacobus: the beatles were genious ...
Zen Arado: oh that all?
Pila Mulligan: yes, they were revolutionary
Bertram Jacobus: 10:30 am here :-)
Pila Mulligan: we did not change time here, so onw we are three hoours eaelrier then SLT
Pila Mulligan: was just two hours before
Pila Mulligan: Eric CLapton too
Pila Mulligan: those were the heydays for music
Bertram Jacobus: ah - there are many good times for music i think ... or even - always ? :-)
Pila Mulligan: probably always :) music is aform of magic
Bertram Jacobus: :-))
Zen Arado: we are trying to learn Beatles songs to play on guitar at our music sessions
Bertram Jacobus: which music sessions ? :-)
Pila Mulligan: I am lookig forward to the party mjusic session, I'd love to attend the regula rones but they are at 4:00am here
Zen Arado: we have a music session here Wed afternoons after Eliza's session
Pila Mulligan: isn;t it at 7 am?
Zen Arado: yeh I miss the poetry sessions for the same reason
Zen Arado: yes
Pila Mulligan: it is an excellent idea
Bertram Jacobus: whaow - nice ! ...
Bertram Jacobus: and : hey wol ! :-)
Pila Mulligan: I saw Eden attached a music file to the log even
Pila Mulligan: hi Wol
Bertram Jacobus: oops - he is too far away yet ...
Pila Mulligan: http://wiki.playasbeing.org/Classes_and_Sessions/Music_Sessions
Zen Arado: I am supposed to hum 'Norwegian Wood' while Eden recites French poetry she has written :)
Bertram Jacobus: huhu wo-hol ! ;o)
Bertram Jacobus: lol he comes ...
Zen Arado: she is working on her art exhibit
Bertram Jacobus: heyy woly moly :o)
Pila Mulligan: hi Wol
Wol Euler: hello bert, zen, pila
Zen Arado: Hi Wol :)
Wol Euler: if you include "getting anxious about" in "working on", then yes :)
Zen Arado: :)
Wol Euler: oh, obs has turned tiny. how cute!
Pila Mulligan: :)
Zen Arado: ah yes
Zen Arado: Hi Obs
Zen Arado: tiny Obs
Pila Mulligan: hi observerm
Zen Arado: did you see my exhibit Bert?

Bertram's meditation group:

Zen Arado: was of your meditation group
Bertram Jacobus: no sry not yet !
Bertram Jacobus: hehe - nice - ty - but : OUR meditation groups, perhaps ? :-)
Zen Arado: yeh ok :)
Pila Mulligan: when is it?
observerm Resident: hello
Zen Arado: 2pm Sundays
Bertram Jacobus: on sundays , 2pm slt
Pila Mulligan: how does it work?
Bertram Jacobus: zen was faster. very well
Bertram Jacobus: it´s with voice and only 10 minutes sitting in silence ...
Pila Mulligan: nice
Bertram Jacobus: some explanations before and talk after sometimes ...
Bertram Jacobus: little recitation
Pila Mulligan: I tried it a couple of years ago, at the SKeptical Buddhists site, but it was not very satisfyig -- and no voice
Bertram Jacobus: it´s on perfect paradise - very nice sim
Pila Mulligan: glad it works
Zen Arado: could be a bit longer meditation perhaps....:)
Pila Mulligan: Liza's seems to wokr too
Wol Euler nods.
Zen Arado: I have only got myself comfortable to start after 10 mins :)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Wol Euler: difficult to be the expert among amateurs :)
Wol Euler: I guess Bjorn Borg feels that way looking for a pickup tennis match at the beach
Pila Mulligan: we are all beginners
Bertram Jacobus: yes. the experienced people sometimes would like to have a longer meditation time, but for beginners it is said, that short and if wished so, some or so to say "many" short sessions would be better then few long ones ...
Zen Arado: nah the longer I meditate the worse I seem to be at it
Pila Mulligan: :)
Wol Euler: that's now you know you're doing it right :)
Pila Mulligan: ten minutes seems about right for SL
Zen Arado: don't even know what 'right' is
Pila Mulligan: :)
Bertram Jacobus: yes. and who would wish to sit longer - can do that (!) :-)
Zen Arado: think I space out too much at long retreats
Pila Mulligan: so next someone should do kirtan
Zen Arado: go into a kind of dreamworld
Pila Mulligan: meditaiton chants and singing with voice
Pila Mulligan: hare krishna hare kirshna :)
Bertram Jacobus: i don´t think so zen. it´s "only" that we see more and more - very much our errors and faults too - a good, but heavy thing at the same time ?

Chanting in SL:

Zen Arado: yeh I would like to try chanting
Zen Arado: but hard to synchronize I am told
Bertram Jacobus: i can´t believe that zen : you also play music ! (?) - so there also synchronisation is necessairy
Pila Mulligan: maybe a kirtan jam session
Zen Arado: I don't know waht Kirtan is
Wol Euler: hello stevie
Pila Mulligan: hi Steve
Pila Mulligan: you are up early today
Zen Arado: Hi Steve :)
Wol Euler: or very late
Pila Mulligan: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, thanks, morning all
stevenaia Michinaga: the sun is not yet up
Bertram Jacobus: and even in talks, chat and communication - always there is some synchronisation so to say ...
Pila Mulligan: getting up early makes things easier
stevenaia Michinaga: hope to find my bed again before it is
Bertram Jacobus: hi stevenaia :-)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: so this is only temprpoarythen?
Zen Arado: yeh if someone leads others could just follow what they hear
stevenaia Michinaga: we shall see
Pila Mulligan: :)
Zen Arado: we can't even bow synchonously
Wol Euler grins.
Pila Mulligan: but we can dance :)
Wol Euler: have to do a countdown in chat, I guess
Pila Mulligan: actually the thing with chanting and music is to let everyone drift into the flow
Pila Mulligan: it happens
Zen Arado: yeh
Zen Arado: I love it at zen retreats
Pila Mulligan: :)
Zen Arado: but it is a formal service
Pila Mulligan: the gestalt aha moment
Wol Euler nods.
Pila Mulligan: 'here we are!'
Zen Arado: yes
Wol Euler: for me there is also a kind of "flashback" effect that results from it
Pila Mulligan: like why didn;t we saty here :)
Pila Mulligan: stay*
Wol Euler: doing "om" at home alone reminds me of being in the group doing it togehter, feeling the whole room vibrate
Zen Arado: yeh something resonates
Wol Euler: the memory of that physical sensation
Pila Mulligan: have you heard of the omcar wol?
Zen Arado: you can't put these things into words easily
Wol Euler: no?
Zen Arado: not logical
Bertram Jacobus: ("kirtan" is singing of mantras and bhajans ("holy music?) in hinduism context originally, zen - i hope, i said that correctly pila) ?
Pila Mulligan: omkar I gues sis the spelling -- it is the sound of om that continues as a result of all the people chanitng
Pila Mulligan: it is always there
Pila Mulligan: in the noosphere
Wol Euler: ah ty
Pila Mulligan: yes Bert, it is fun
Zen Arado: ok ty Bert
Bertram Jacobus: :-)
Zen Arado: Zen chants are'nt very melodic
Pila Mulligan: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: many religions ahve similar thing
Bertram Jacobus: but sung with a very big heart ! ... :-)
Zen Arado: the most melodic one we do is the three refuges in Pali
Bertram Jacobus: (zen´s chants)
Zen Arado: Buddham saranam gacchami....
Pila Mulligan: do you do the heart sutra?
Bertram Jacobus: i loved it very much when i heared you once zen ...
Zen Arado: yes
Pila Mulligan: it has anice sound
Zen Arado: and Metta sutra
Bertram Jacobus: so nice that we have such things, elements, sutras and all that ...
Zen Arado: and Enmei Jukku kanno gyo
Zen Arado: and Dharani
Zen Arado: Robe verses
Pila Mulligan: :)
Bertram Jacobus: enough stuff to fill life ... +#
Zen Arado: Metta is chanted in English
Zen Arado: nice sutra
Zen Arado: means loving kindness..
Zen Arado: beautiful words
Bertram Jacobus: nothing better could be said i think ...
Bertram Jacobus: holy words ...
Bertram Jacobus: holy sense ...
Bertram Jacobus: holy : good without any bad
Bertram Jacobus: beyond duality
Bertram Jacobus: astonishing
Zen Arado: a good sutra to chant every day
Bertram Jacobus: yess !

(I rezzed a big board with the Metta Sutta on it at this point)

Zen Arado: 'not holding to fixed views'
Zen Arado: how important
Bertram Jacobus: *agree*
Bertram Jacobus: very helpful
Zen Arado: writing could be clearer I now realise
Zen Arado: should have just used Arial
Bertram Jacobus: writing is ONE form to help awareness to rise for me ...
Bertram Jacobus: i find it very beautyful as it is zen
Pila Mulligan: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aM3Pqb1jQJk
Bertram Jacobus: *click*
Zen Arado: I had this sitting at a place I had earlier in SL
Zen Arado: that's very melodic and full of energy Pila
Pila Mulligan: Ram Dass had these kirtan sessions at his house once a month a few years aog, less formal :)
Pila Mulligan: but fun :)
Wol Euler smiles.
Zen Arado: reminds me of 'happy clappy' christians too
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: some of the best spiritual music I've heard was at blcak churches during the civil right smovement
Pila Mulligan: african american gospel
Zen Arado: I was at a big Tibetan temple couple years ago and they had beautiful chants
Pila Mulligan: moved the roof anf the floor
Zen Arado: yeh
Bertram Jacobus: ram das ... very interesting i find ... never read or heared much from him but again and again ...
Pila Mulligan: he's till getting along
Bertram Jacobus: okay friends - i leave - ty for the wonderful meeting here , at this morning (morning in germany) ... have a nice time and may all beings be happy pls !
Wol Euler: bye bert, enjoy the day
Zen Arado: bye Bert:)
stevenaia Michinaga: bye Bert
Zen Arado: have a good day
Pila Mulligan: bye Bert, nice to see you
Bertram Jacobus: ty again all of you *wave and poof* :-)
Zen Arado: yeh thinking the chants are left out of Buddhist groups in SL
Pila Mulligan: well, as you said earlier, it is hard to get it together
Zen Arado: you still go to Skeptical Buddhists Pila?
Pila Mulligan: no, not for a few years
Wol Euler excuses herself and slips away. Take care, dear friends.
Pila Mulligan: they were too skpetical for me :)
Zen Arado: I used to go there myself
stevenaia Michinaga: lol
Pila Mulligan: bye Wol, nice to see you
stevenaia Michinaga: bye Wol
Zen Arado: was first group I joined I think
Zen Arado: bye Wol
Pila Mulligan: yes, I started there early in my SL time too
Zen Arado: yeh me too I guess
Zen Arado: very science oriented
--BELL--
Pila Mulligan: yes
Pila Mulligan: well, it is 11:15 pm here now, time for Pila to drift off to dreamland -- nice to see you Zen and Steve :)
Zen Arado: there's a kind of wariness there I think
stevenaia Michinaga: night
Pila Mulligan: yes, timid too
stevenaia Michinaga: pila
Zen Arado: ok nice to see you Pila
stevenaia Michinaga: breakfast time for me
Pila Mulligan: bye for now
Zen Arado: ok bye Steve
Zen Arado: nice of you to come
Zen Arado: bye