2009.01.01 07:00 - Looking To and From

Happy New Year! 

This log is a report of sorts on a subject/object reversal experiment.  The dialog highlights how slippery it is to describe this stuff.  - CH

Hello there! and Happy New Year!! ...

Caledonia Heron: hi Gaya :)
Gaya Ethaniel smiles. Happy New Year Cal
Caledonia Heron: yes, indeed... Happy New Year :)
Caledonia Heron: did you have a celebration?
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes we had a small lovely gathering at home. Yourself?
Caledonia Heron: us too, friends came over :) it was fun
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Caledonia Heron: they are all still here, some sleeping, some having coffee
Gaya Ethaniel smiles. I had a good dose of tea too this morning
Caledonia Heron: :) I know what you mean

Current events ...

Gaya Ethaniel: Suppose not all are fortunate enough to have had merry gatherings as us. Fefonz was talking about his parents in Israel yesterday
Gaya Ethaniel: [with rockets landing where they live]
Caledonia Heron: really? interesting ... looks like a bad situation there
Gaya Ethaniel nods... both sides it seems
Caledonia Heron: I wonder if they will succeed in breaking that cycle... sometimes it appears not, sometimes there seems to be progress
Gaya Ethaniel: Indeed... it is a 'cycle'

Coming around to PaB ...

Caledonia Heron: do you still engage in the 9secs (or variation) practice?
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes I hear the bell most of the time
Gaya Ethaniel: How about you Cal?
Caledonia Heron: Is that a metaphor for doing the practice or you literally have a bell? :)
Gaya Ethaniel: I have the mindful bell software installed on my computer for when I'm using the machine
Caledonia Heron: ah, ok, got it
Gaya Ethaniel: When it's not on, I do it as necessary
Caledonia Heron: To answer your question I have been doing a kind of experiment with the phenomenology group, exploring role reversal between subject (myself) and an object and reporting on that to the group
Gaya Ethaniel: Could you share your experiences here?
Caledonia Heron: mmm, I can try
Gaya Ethaniel smiles. Thank you

A take on how the phenom experiment can happen ...

Caledonia Heron: are you familiar with the experiment ... not sure how much to explain
Gaya Ethaniel: I read a few emails... I do get the rough idea of it yes
Caledonia Heron: the group members are each reporting on what happens for them when trying a subject-object reversal
Caledonia Heron: some see the object as the subject looking at themselves as object
Caledonia Heron: kind of a "moving over to" perspective
Caledonia Heron: another variation is to stay right where you are, and stay passive
Caledonia Heron: then let the object see you without being the object ... to be seen by the object as an object :)
Caledonia Heron: sounds funny doesn't it :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Sounds very interesting. Which variation are you exploring at the moment?

Here is another opportunity for me to describe the subject/object reversal experiment in a dialog format.  Maybe some of the experiment comes across.  The bit about creating a oneness while seeing/holding two things can be pushed even farther out to say that seeing/being seen creates a sort of none-ness in that the perceived difference between the two becomes irrelevant and non-apparent.  ... 

Caledonia Heron: I have tried them both and find the second variation a little more interesting
Gaya Ethaniel: The one where one stays 'passive'?
Caledonia Heron: yes, correct
Caledonia Heron: I don't have a very good handle on how to describe it ...and, I can say that it's like you can see and be seen at the same time, like a big picture type of thing ... I think I will get better at it given more practice
Gaya Ethaniel: Would you say these explorations are related to 9 sec or PaB exercises?
Caledonia Heron: sure
Gaya Ethaniel: What you described just now seems somewhat similar to YSBS
Caledonia Heron: yes, it has those elements
Caledonia Heron: and, it's like a repeating decimal sort of ... YSBSYSBSYSBS, like a loop maybe or a melding, or a creating one thing but still two .... hard to describe which is probably hugely evident at this point :)

Is it like two mirrors? ...

Caledonia Heron: I am taking little baby steps, maybe someone with a better handle on it could describe it more effectively
Gaya Ethaniel: Is it like looking into two mirrors facing each other?
Caledonia Heron: that brings to mind a kind of ping pong arrangement which to me this is not,
Caledonia Heron: it's not a going back and forth,
Caledonia Heron: it's more a seeing of a picture and being the picture seeing back at the same time
Gaya Ethaniel: ah...
Gaya Ethaniel: And do you see yourself being the picture at the same time?
Caledonia Heron: sec, let me think how to write it
Gaya Ethaniel smiles. Please take your time

The set-up and description ...

Caledonia Heron: maybe I can sequence it to be more descriptive ... the sequence will be less apparent and falls away at the end
Caledonia Heron: think how you start your 9sec
Caledonia Heron: you're wherever, being you, doing your thing
Caledonia Heron: breath, relax, release your thoughts,
Caledonia Heron: you can see yourself as the subject of your relationship with your environment
Caledonia Heron: all the stuff is out there, being the objects in the subject/object relationship
Gaya Ethaniel is following 

Caledonia Heron: you can pick an object, whatever, and kind of have it look back at you, maybe "put yourself in it's shoes" so to speak
Caledonia Heron: that's one way
Caledonia Heron: another way you can go is to be you, and have the object see you while still being yourself, ... there's a two yet one sort of thing going on, and there, for me the sequence kind of breaks down until I'm distracted and then I'm back where I started
Gaya Ethaniel: 'The objects' as the surrounding?
Caledonia Heron: it's at the breakdown, yet importantly the opening, of the sequence that's of great interest to me

That was a clumsy description of how a subject can shift to object while staying in it's original starting place.  I as subject don't transfer myself to the object. I stay put and see myself as object from the new subject. ...
Also, the "sequence", the doing-ness of the reversal kind of melts away and what I perceive is something "other" that is neither subject or object; it's more of a non-relationship. ...

I wonder if you can take the one to one correspondence of subject/object and widen that out to include all the objects within your realm, in a way making all things see you, to be seen as "object" by a realm of subjects... and then have even that reversal lose relevance ... what is that possibility?
 

Caledonia Heron: mmm, if I understand your question correctly, it's more specific than objects being your surroundings
Gaya Ethaniel: [7:39] Caledonia Heron: another way you can go is to be you, and have the object see you while still being yourself => the objects you mean here are all elements in one's surrounding?
Caledonia Heron: ah, ok ... no, this is about a specific selected object ... but I can see that someone with a great deal of facility with this technique might be able to include the whole of one's surroundings
Caledonia Heron: and I will qualify all this by saying these are merely my experiences for what they're worth :)

A vocabulary and description issue arises ...
 

Gaya Ethaniel: Let me read again the second 'method' then. I probably misunderstood...
Caledonia Heron: :) probably my description
Caledonia Heron: it's difficult to write about this stuff on the fly
Gaya Ethaniel: ah got it Cal
Gaya Ethaniel: Sounds very interesting indeed. In a way more specific/focused than YSBS... perhaps easier to start with
Caledonia Heron: yes, very interesting .... another flavour, variation
Gaya Ethaniel nods

With that, farewell ...

Caledonia Heron: you might consider joining the experiment if it's of interest
Gaya Ethaniel smiles. Yes perhaps
Gaya Ethaniel: Alas need to attend RL [some demands feeding]
Caledonia Heron: sure, understood ... hope I made a little sense :)
Gaya Ethaniel: I appreciate it Cal. It's been very interesting conversation
Caledonia Heron: I've been running on a bit, would like to hear your pab experience next time :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Well I use 9 sec for pauses mainly
Gaya Ethaniel: Otherwise, I meditate...
Caledonia Heron: mmmm, all good :)
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Gaya Ethaniel: No news to report I'm afraid...
Gaya Ethaniel: Enjoy your day Cal. Good to have seen you today
Caledonia Heron: yes, same here, see you soon :)