2009.01.08 07:00 - Biting is an Attachment

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    What a great conversation; seriously playful, playfully serious ... check it out.  - CH


    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Cal :)
    Caledonia Heron: hey there Gaya :)
    Caledonia Heron: how are you today?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Very well thank you. Yourself?
    Caledonia Heron: good :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Adams :)
    Adams Rubble: Hello Gaya and Cal :)
    Caledonia Heron: hey Adams :)
    Caledonia Heron: what's new? how are you?
    Adams Rubble: me or Gaya?
    Adams Rubble: or both?
    Caledonia Heron: you dahling :)
    Adams Rubble: hehe
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)



    Adams Rubble: I had an earthshaking week in PaB during the break
    Caledonia Heron: no kidding
    Caledonia Heron: love to hear about it
    Adams Rubble: Now everything is calmed down and I am trying to find my way back into the groove
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Adams Rubble: Well I leaned a good bit about two of my identities
    Adams Rubble: where they came from and how they have conflicted
    Adams Rubble: that is very useful
    Adams Rubble: I learned to appreciate both of them
    Caledonia Heron: sounds like a good thing
    Adams Rubble: yes, very good
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Adams Rubble: but more importantly, I have been reacquainted with what happens when I am able to drop them totally
    Caledonia Heron: ahhh, now that's interesting :)
    Adams Rubble: It is then all the pain and burden is lifted and one can really listen
    Adams Rubble: so now Pema has me practicing listening
    Adams Rubble: and watching, of course
    Adams Rubble: and appreciating
    Adams Rubble: :)



    Caledonia Heron: what do you hear?
    Adams Rubble: That's a bit tougher to answer; I am seeing more than hearing right now
    Adams Rubble: When I do hear, the voice is not coming from my brain
    Caledonia Heron: mmm, listening to see, I like that it's like the sun's so hot I froze to death
    Adams Rubble: which is probably why I am not listening as well as I might
    Caledonia Heron: I wonder where it comes from
    Adams Rubble hasn't heard that one in a while :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: That the dark face?
    Adams Rubble: yes, is it coming from God/Being or from some other part of me?



    Adams Rubble: Hello Bill :)
    Gaya Ethaniel shakes her head... I don't know
    Caledonia Heron: maybe it's the same thing?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Solo :)
    Solobill Laville: Hi, everyone
    Adams Rubble: from observations alone, one could deduce that
    Caledonia Heron: hey there :) long time no virtualize :)
    Solobill Laville: hehe, too true, sadly....
    Solobill Laville: (don't want to interrupt)
    Adams Rubble: Not sure of anything about the face in the dark Gaya
    Caledonia Heron: Adams is sharing her recent activities and insights Solo :)
    Adams Rubble: It is not what is speaking though, I think, not yet
    Adams Rubble: It is just there to discover sometime
    Adams Rubble tried to summarize
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok... I was just curious after reading your blog
    Adams Rubble: yes :)
    Adams Rubble: It is there to keep us all tuned in :)
    Adams Rubble: hehe



    Caledonia Heron: here's an interesting bit just before you arrived Solo: "When I do hear, the voice is not coming from my brain"
    Solobill Laville: ooh, do go on...
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Adams Rubble afraid to say :)
    Adams Rubble: It comes from lower down, seemingly from the stomach
    Solobill Laville: very interesting...have you had any kind of awareness in that area before?
    Adams Rubble: no, I don;t think so
    Caledonia Heron: hmmm, interesting you say that - I would agree there is more energy there than is accounted for by food digestion :)
    Adams Rubble: My other experience with my body intelligence is with the almost two months of sleeplessness after my experience with the great space
    Solobill Laville nods
    Adams Rubble should get a "novice" label :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Caledonia Heron: I think most of us are rowing in that boat :)
    Solobill Laville: In Zazen, it is common to place one's mind in the hara, which is just below the navel
    Solobill Laville: of course mind, doesn't mean brain in that context...
    Adams Rubble: no. I can understand that much
    Adams Rubble: It is amazing to think of all the things our body knows which we do not
    Adams Rubble knows very little about chemistry
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Adams Rubble is grateful for the body knowledge



    Solobill Laville: How does this feel when it comes from that area, Adams?
    Caledonia Heron: maybe there is a membrane, thinner in some than others, where bits get through :)
    Adams Rubble: I don't know Bill. I haven't thought about it
    Adams Rubble: hehe Cal
    Caledonia Heron: it feels true :)
    Adams Rubble: I need to go back and look over my notes for the specifics
    Adams Rubble: yes Cal, it does
    Gaya Ethaniel: Does it feel in any way 'deep' I wonder
    Adams Rubble: yes, I have had some deep experiences
    Adams Rubble: One of them was the watching after I fully dropped my identities. there were things deeper than the identities
    Adams Rubble: they weren't developed and slick like the identities
    Adams Rubble: they were crude and raw
    Adams Rubble: like little pieces
    Gaya Ethaniel: oh I meant deep as in where the voice is coming from...
    Adams Rubble: ah sorry
    Gaya Ethaniel: Was vague sorry
    Caledonia Heron: crude and raw like elements?
    Adams Rubble: I seem to remember it pointed me somewhere
    Adams Rubble: bits of memory that were left over from when the identities were formed
    Adams Rubble: not part of the identities
    Adams Rubble: from before the memories were formed
    Adams Rubble: sorry
    Adams Rubble: from before the identities were formed
    Caledonia Heron: a primordial Adams? :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Adams Rubble: primordial in the sense of me, not the rest of the world :)
    Adams Rubble: hehe
    Adams Rubble hasn't gotten back that far yet
    Caledonia Heron: :)



    Caledonia Heron: what is that feeling in the belly for you Solo?
    Solobill Laville: less of a feeling and more of a placement of concentration, or focus
    Caledonia Heron: conscious placement?
    Solobill Laville: It helps to unify the mind-body, and not "get stuck in the brain"
    Solobill Laville: yes, conscious placement
    Caledonia Heron: so you "do" it on purpose or placement is a locality?
    Caledonia Heron: ah, ok
    Solobill Laville: oh, yes, very intentional
    Caledonia Heron: you are a faster typist or a better predictor :)
    Solobill Laville: It helps to center oneself
    Solobill Laville: :)
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Solobill Laville: Other schools talk of chakras, which I nothing next to nothing about
    Solobill Laville: but it seems similar, perhaps



    Adams Rubble: When I had my visions of God, both were during body scans when I was in the vicinity of my stomach
    Caledonia Heron: sounds like a set of steps or procedure perhaps to center there at the middle
    Solobill Laville: Adams, could you explain that more?
    Caledonia Heron: yes, me too - I'm wondering what that means
    Adams Rubble: The visions or the scans?
    Solobill Laville: the scans, I recall the visions and the rocking :)
    Caledonia Heron: yes, exactly
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Adams Rubble: I had stopped for the nine seconds and done some breaths...
    Adams Rubble: and I began to just let my mind focus around my body
    Adams Rubble: much like what Bill just described
    Adams Rubble: It was while I was scanning in the vicinity fo the stomach that both visions began
    Solobill Laville: !
    Caledonia Heron: goodness
    Adams Rubble: I have never been able to duplicate anything like that
    Gaya Ethaniel: Something about that area being 'centre of universe'... I read somewhere
    Adams Rubble: Of course, it might also be a way for me to drop what is going on in my mind
    Solobill Laville: The general idea of that spot is one of centeredness; a central fixed point of mind-body, stability
    Adams Rubble: but I am willing to accept there is more
    Solobill Laville: yes, and that too very much, Adams
    Adams Rubble: hmmm
    Gaya Ethaniel: Must have meant symbolic 'centre' as you said Solo
    Solobill Laville: A Zen Abbot said, "just place your mind in your belly, and see the Buddha"...
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Adams Rubble: /sees God :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Solobill Laville: of course...just wanted to use the actual quote ;)
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Caledonia Heron: wondering about Buddha's big belly and how much he can see from there :)
    Adams Rubble: hehe
    Solobill Laville: hehe
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Adams Rubble: Maybe big bellies are a help
    Solobill Laville: the holidays were good to me then....
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Caledonia Heron: lol, yes



    Adams Rubble: Good time to reconnect
    Caledonia Heron: when I was pregnant my husband brought home a tshirt that said belly love, good on many levels :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Solobill Laville smiles big
    Adams Rubble: Wow, a whole new level :)
    Caledonia Heron: belly, bella, beautiful
    Solobill Laville: ci
    Solobill Laville: I wonder if there is any (sure there is) on this mind placement subject is Christian contemplative writings?
    Adams Rubble knows people to ask
    Caledonia Heron: hmm, surely there is someone we can consult?
    Caledonia Heron: ah, ok ... you guys are fast typists!! :)
    Adams Rubble: hehe
    Solobill Laville: morning = coffee
    Gaya Ethaniel: :) I could also ask my aunt of course if not
    Solobill Laville: Your aunt?
    Gaya Ethaniel: She's a catholic nun and into some non-main stream things... speaking in tongue thinigs like that
    Solobill Laville: wowza :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :) yeah
    Caledonia Heron: I think of those writings as do's and don'ts not what-if's .... I should read them from the belly :)
    Solobill Laville: Indeed :)
    Caledonia Heron: yikes!
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Solobill Laville would love to see tongues-talking catholic nun av in PaB...
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Solobill Laville: set her up, Gaya
    Caledonia Heron: hide the rulers!!
    Solobill Laville: smack!
    Caledonia Heron: ouch
    Gaya Ethaniel: I will ask but she's always off somewhere exotic, Africa, Papua New Guinea etc
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: No Internet in those places I think
    Caledonia Heron: satellite :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)



    Gaya Ethaniel: Don't you guys think some old religous texts talk in riddles?
    Adams Rubble: Well they use imagery and examples which are unknown to many of us
    Caledonia Heron: yes, archaic references, hand copying through the generations, the obtuseness of the subject ... lots of contributors to riddle-ness :)
    Adams Rubble: some of the lessons they are teaching may not speak to us too
    Adams Rubble: but others are right on
    Gaya Ethaniel: So can mean different things to different people
    Solobill Laville: Well, there some that are perhaps more "ethical-based" which I personally tent to get too involved with
    Caledonia Heron: examples?
    Adams Rubble has been pondering an ethical example
    Solobill Laville: A great many of the oldest Buddhist Sutras, the 10 Commandments, off the top of my mind
    Adams Rubble: When the Buddha decided that life was suffering, he left his wife and family to go off to the desert
    Adams Rubble: what about his responsibilities to his wife?
    Adams Rubble: and family?
    Caledonia Heron: suffering or unsatisfactory?
    Solobill Laville: He lived in a castle, she was OK ;)
    Caledonia Heron: good questions
    Caledonia Heron: yeah, maybe he thought it was handled
    Solobill Laville: Seriously, the historical Siddhartha was wealthy prince
    Adams Rubble: yes I know but it seems rather cruel on one level
    Gaya Ethaniel: mmhmm and that was at the beginning of his 'journey'...
    Caledonia Heron: maybe it would be cruel to stay
    Adams Rubble: Of course it is a story but the story has a point
    Gaya Ethaniel: He thought it best perhaps at the time
    Solobill Laville: well, things happen, cruel is a bit subjective, perhaps also in terms of the time period, I don't know...
    Adams Rubble: but it is an ethical question
    Adams Rubble: our ethics vs. someone elses
    Solobill Laville: yes



    Gaya Ethaniel: Thing is even within one text, I find contradictions between ethics vs how things are
    Adams Rubble: Of course Buddhism is very radical and this is a radical decision on his part
    Caledonia Heron: getting a picture of "ultimate ethics" and "personal ethics" ...
    Solobill Laville: hehe - radical is also a bit subjective :)
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Adams Rubble: yes, very much so
    Adams Rubble: What I meant that in Buddhism, almost everything is an attachment, even God it would seem
    Adams Rubble: and wives?
    Caledonia Heron: a good band name .. The Subjectives who typically open for The Hyperboles
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Solobill Laville: Slightly different, things are, we can or cannot be attached to them, with whatever consequences that may mean
    Solobill Laville: i love their live album...
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Adams Rubble: please say more Bill
    Caledonia Heron: attachments aren't good or bad, they're just attachments
    Gaya Ethaniel: wow non-attachment to attachment :)
    Solobill Laville: inherently that is true, Cal
    Caledonia Heron: yes, cherry pick them knowing what they are
    Solobill Laville: and, according to Buddhist thought, our attachments to things are
    Caledonia Heron: I like some of my attachments, some are a pain in the ass
    Solobill Laville: a great part of our suffering
    Gaya Ethaniel: That kind of kick starts a infinite line of non-attachment to non-attachment to... :)
    Solobill Laville: yes, the rub can be that the liking is even considered an attachment
    Adams Rubble very much feels Cal's sentiment
    Solobill Laville: ...which really bites...
    Adams Rubble: yes
    Caledonia Heron: biting is an attachment :)
    Solobill Laville: lol
    Solobill Laville: Now there's a T-shirt....
    Caledonia Heron: here goes that infinite thing :)
    Adams Rubble: :)



    Gaya Ethaniel: One of the most difficult part for me has been realising non-attachment doesn't mean feeling nothing
    Caledonia Heron: yes, isn't that a funny picture ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Solobill Laville: Yes, Gaya, go on..
    Gaya Ethaniel: An ability to feel and appreciate is there
    Adams Rubble: yes please Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: Just when feeling good or bad, it's important not to cling on for me
    Solobill Laville nods
    Gaya Ethaniel: But fully appreciate whatever comes



    Caledonia Heron: hi Marcus :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Enjoy too
    Marcus Herbit: hi
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Marcus
    Adams Rubble: yes
    Solobill Laville: That is a very good realization Gaya :)
    Adams Rubble: Hello Marcus
    Caledonia Heron: we are having a play as being discussion - I will im you with details
    Marcus Herbit: i'm italian
    Gaya Ethaniel nods... last time I got myself feeling flat, nothing matters mode
    Marcus Herbit: there'is someone that is italian???
    Gaya Ethaniel: But without that experience, I wouldn't have realised this so it's all good
    Solobill Laville: No, but my favorite city in the world is Firenze!!
    Adams Rubble is beginning to learn that the flat times are important
    Caledonia Heron: as I mentioned in im - we are recording this session - may we include your comments Marcus?
    Gaya Ethaniel likes Italian food
    Adams Rubble: yum
    Gaya Ethaniel: Please say more Adams?
    Marcus Herbit: what are you doing???
    Adams Rubble: It is a time of slow realization
    Solobill Laville: IM is new as well, Cal... :)
    Adams Rubble: Also one cannot fully appreciate the mountains without the plains



    Marcus Herbit: i'm new of second life
    Caledonia Heron: ah, Marcus is 1 day old :)
    Caledonia Heron: yes :)
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Adams Rubble: Welcome to Second Life marcus
    Marcus Herbit: thx
    Caledonia Heron: we are having a discussion group Marcus - called play as being
    Caledonia Heron: you can read about it at
    Solobill Laville (quietly excuses himself)
    Marcus Herbit: yes
    Adams Rubble: bye Bill
    Caledonia Heron: bye Bill :)
    Marcus Herbit: bye
    Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Solo :)
    Gaya's translator: Only Bye:)
    Adams Rubble loves Gaya's translator
    Caledonia Heron: I must go also - bye everyone :) great discussion :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: We are finishing up here sorry
    Gaya's translator: Siamo spiacenti di finitura qui
    Adams Rubble: Yes me too. Bye everyone. Great discussion :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: But we have session 4 times a day
    Gaya's translator: Ma ci sono tornata 4 volte al giorno
    Caledonia Heron: come again Marcus ... on the 1 and 7 slt for the discusssion group :)
    Marcus Herbit: ok don't worry
    Gaya Ethaniel: 1 am, 7 am, 1 pm and 7 pm
    Gaya's translator: 1 del mattino, 7 am, 1 pm e 7 pm
    Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Marcus
    Gaya's translator: Ciao Marco
    Marcus Herbit: bye
    Adams Rubble: Bye Marcus
    Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Cal and Adams :)

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