2009.01.21 13:00 - All Being Equal

The Guardian for this session was Genesis Zhangsun, the comments below are hers.

Solobill Laville: Fabien and Rico, have you been here before?
Gaya Ethaniel: I don't see anyone... except a floatie figures...
stevenaia Michinaga: I'm rather confused as to who the guardian is for this session, are we covered?
Solobill Laville: Yes, Gen
Solobill Laville: (saw your email Steve...yes, confusing)
genesis Zhangsun: yup its me now
stevenaia Michinaga: aww gen you are here, thanks, I was a bit vonfused my an email
stevenaia Michinaga: hehe
rico Melody: Hey!
genesis Zhangsun: I think that was about 7pm?
genesis Zhangsun: Hey Rico!
stevenaia Michinaga: O am 7:00
stevenaia Michinaga: I am
Solobill Laville: Hi piperlou
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Megumi-san :)
genesis Zhangsun: Hey Piper
PiperLou Destiny: Hi
Solobill Laville: and hello Ed
genesis Zhangsun: Hey Ed!
ED Bruun: hello
genesis Zhangsun: Hi Samuel!
Gaya Ethaniel: mm... I don't still don't see anything... let me re-log
Solobill Laville: For anyone who hasn't been here before, this is a discussion group that meets regularly
genesis Zhangsun: Ed, Piper, Rico have you been here before?
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ED Bruun: first time
Solobill Laville: (take it away, Gen ;))
Samuel Okelly: hi gen :)
PiperLou Destiny: First time for me as well

I give my newbie spiel...

genesis Zhangsun: Ok well Piper
genesis Zhangsun: this is the Play as Being group
Solobill Laville: wb gaya
genesis Zhangsun: if you touch the blue i information post behind you there is more information
genesis Zhangsun: basically though we are a group exploring the nature of reality
genesis Zhangsun: doing practices and discussing them
Gaya Ethaniel: ty :) looks like... oh I see people!
genesis Zhangsun: all of these meetings are made public on our wiki
genesis Zhangsun: http://playasbeing.wik.is/
genesis Zhangsun: There is more information there too
genesis Zhangsun: did I cover it Solo?
genesis Zhangsun: anything you want to add?
Solobill Laville: nope
Solobill Laville: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Please take the blue cushion next to me Megumi-san :)
genesis Zhangsun: well lets rockn roll then!
Gaya Ethaniel: [better female sit]
stevenaia Michinaga: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Informatio..._in_a_Nutshell
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
PiperLou Destiny smiles, arigato Gaya-chan
genesis Zhangsun: ty Steve!
Gaya Ethaniel smiles

Solobill get us going...

Solobill Laville: Perhaps Sam has a cool reality quote...(looking at his tag)
genesis Zhangsun: :)
Samuel Okelly: :)
Samuel Okelly: will any quote do? ;)
Solobill Laville: SUre!
Samuel Okelly: “The time has come to reaffirm our enduring spirit; to choose our better history; to carry forward that precious gift, that noble idea, passed on from generation to generation: the God-given promise that all are equal, all are free, and all deserve a chance to pursue their full measure of happiness.”-President Barack Obama, 20th January 2009
Solobill Laville: hehe
Solobill Laville: good one
Gaya Ethaniel: Thank you :)
Solobill Laville wonders about the god-given promise part though...it that in the Bible?
Samuel Okelly: this was taken from inaugration speech
Samuel Okelly: what struck me was the reference to "all being equal"

Oh man...I always find it slightly awkward in PaB to talk politics but at the same time it is part of life so no reason to discourage it and I have had some great discussions here on the topic so I swallowed the little ball that had formed in my throat...

genesis Zhangsun: yes?
Solobill Laville: We still have some work to do on that...
Samuel Okelly: BOs is exceptionaly pro-abortion (not merely pro-choice) and so i see this as a clear contradiction on his part
Solobill Laville raises an eyebrow
Samuel Okelly: i say this NOT to debate the abortion issue here but rather to question the reliablity of the person who holds the highest office arguable in the world
genesis Zhangsun: oh I really didn't read that into the "all being equal" but I suppose that is laer we could consider
genesis Zhangsun: &layer
genesis Zhangsun: *layer
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Fefonz :)
genesis Zhangsun: Hey Fefonz!
Solobill Laville respectfully disagrees with Sam :)
Fefonz Quan: Hey all :)
Solobill Laville: Heya, Fefonz!
genesis Zhangsun: well difficult not to debate abortion when you are using someone's belief about this as a measure of reliability
genesis Zhangsun: not that I want to go there necessarily...

Wow...not just discussing politics discussing one of the toughest debates the abortion issue...(lump came back in throat)

Samuel Okelly: in what way do you disagree sol?
Solobill Laville: Well, before we go there, perhaps we should determine if we have a more PaB-ish topic anyone would want to discuss?
Solobill Laville: :)
Fefonz Quan: it can be PaB-ish, since it concern the emergant of sentient being
Samuel Okelly: i would just like to reiterate that i am NOT prposing the abortion issue here ... rather the credability of BO
Fefonz Quan: and when that happens
Fefonz Quan: BO?
genesis Zhangsun: broadly yes Fefonz I agree thats why I said it was an aspect of Being that I had never considered
Gaya Ethaniel: The new president
Samuel Okelly: barack obama
Gaya Ethaniel giggles silently
Fefonz Quan: Ah, gladly it's not barak samuel or something
genesis Zhangsun: but you are attacking BO's reliability based on his position on abortion no?
genesis Zhangsun: so how do you avoid it?
Samuel Okelly: that is not so gen
genesis Zhangsun: unless you take the premise pro-abortion=unreliable as true
genesis Zhangsun: :)
Samuel Okelly: i mam eluding to a contradiction in his stated position
genesis Zhangsun: well its not a contradiction depending on where one believes a "being" truly starts
genesis Zhangsun: or comes into "being" right?
genesis Zhangsun: so again can't avoid the abortion debate :)
Solobill Laville: I think the argument is that
Solobill Laville: and all deserve a chance to pursue their full measure of happiness
Samuel Okelly: well he refers in his speech to "all being equal" yet he is in support of the FOCA that would allow abortion at ANY point during the nine months
Solobill Laville: (quote)
Solobill Laville: yes, would not be true for an aborted fetus
Solobill Laville: and if BO felt that way, he could not be
Solobill Laville: exceptionaly pro-abortion
Solobill Laville: to use Sam's words
Solobill Laville: My isssue is with the starting premise that
Solobill Laville: BO is "exceptionaly pro-abortion"
Samuel Okelly: if i may support this with quotes?

Bracing myself...again reminding myself I have had good talks in PaB regarding politics but at the same time a thought creeping in that perhaps what bugged me was not so much the topic but the approach.

Solobill Laville: of course!
Fefonz Quan: i wonder what this "exceptionaly" means too
Samuel Okelly: START >>>
Samuel Okelly: Obama claims unashamedly to be pro-choice however the facts below show why it is more accurate to view him as being militantly pro-abortion. Indeed by the dictionary definition of “infanticide”, it would seem this label for him him is, is in itself, a generous way of describing his particular world-view.
Solobill Laville: (yes, we need to define that especially)
Samuel Okelly: .
Samuel Okelly: 1. Obama supports the repeal of the Hyde Amendment. This ensures that pro-life citizens of the state are not forced in to paying for “lifestyle” abortions through the tax system.
Samuel Okelly: .
Samuel Okelly: 2. Obama opposed a ban on partial birth abortions in the Illinois legislature. The Born Alive Infants Protection Act stated that all live-born babies were guaranteed the same constitutional right to equal protection, whether or not they were wanted.
Samuel Okelly: .
Samuel Okelly: 3. Obama has pledged that the first thing he would do as President would be to sign the FOCA and thus making a fundamental right in law to an abortion up to and including nine months. This would make it a legal right to abort the life of a fully developed child for undefined “health” reasons.
Samuel Okelly: .
Solobill Laville: Hang on a sec, Sam
Samuel Okelly: sure
Solobill Laville: Just to point it out, there are a lot of subjective words
Solobill Laville: being used here
Solobill Laville: which does illustrate a particular bias
Solobill Laville: the rest of the argument notwithstanding though
Samuel Okelly: yet the stated facts remain and can be easily checked via a 5secs on google
Solobill Laville: of course
Fefonz Quan: i think that taking the abortion issue into the 8-9th month is somehow skipping the (statistically )major issue with them
Samuel Okelly: you challenged the validity of "extreme" and these have been used to support its use
Solobill Laville: exceptionally, you mean?
Samuel Okelly: apologies
Solobill Laville: np :)
Fefonz Quan: there are very few people that will want to abort the child in the 8th month, if any,
Fefonz Quan: and health problem shuld not be taken as just a saying in this place.
Aurora Kitaj is Online
Samuel Okelly: ill say again though i am happy to debate the abortion issue it is NOT my intention here rather the reliability of BOmy point here
Fefonz Quan: but the main issue i thought is early abortion, that is against the belief of many people
genesis Zhangsun: too late Sam you already are :)
Samuel Okelly: :)
Samuel Okelly: the main point is that BO contradicts himeslf in a very significant way
Solobill Laville: Well, there is logic in your argument, of course :)
Fefonz Quan: without getting into details, if BO will follow exactly every word he said in the last year,
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Fefonz Quan: he will be not only the first politician to do so in the 21st century
Fefonz Quan: but the first in decades
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genesis Zhangsun: I think this portion of the quote is being take way out of context, this quote is about race equality, about the first black president not about the equality of all beings including fetuses
Samuel Okelly: here in the UK we are used to the Press building up ppl for celebrity only to then knock them down and i am wondering if this is what is happening with BO?
genesis Zhangsun: its easy to take a quote out of context and they flip it around in this manner with a little logic
Fefonz Quan: /nods
genesis Zhangsun: but it doesn't enrich the debate
genesis Zhangsun: take a quote Sam from BO on the abortion issue and then debate his position
Samuel Okelly: where does it restrict itself to the notion of "race"?
genesis Zhangsun: not something taken from his inauguration speech which clearly about a completely different historical moment
genesis Zhangsun: its not abour restriction Sam its about context
stevenaia Michinaga: I must leave, see you all soon
stevenaia Michinaga is Offline
Solobill Laville: Though not elucidated, race was I think the context
Solobill Laville: bye steve
Samuel Okelly: in its broadest sense the language is very clear
PiperLou Destiny: May say something ?
Solobill Laville: Yes!
Fefonz Quan: i would like to bring forth the concept of "ideals" that was discussed here a few days ago
Fefonz Quan: (sorry piper, go on)
PiperLou Destiny: After reading the qoute presented it, and all the text following. It would seem to me that he is talking about every person ,including fetuses, not just a race of people, because there is no mention of race in the qoute
PiperLou Destiny: It says '' all beings''
Fefonz Quan: so we should expect cat to vote next?
Fefonz Quan: cats*
genesis Zhangsun: this ain't Constitution Piper or scripture its a quote from the first black president on his inauguration day
genesis Zhangsun: *the Constitution

Damn a littel misdirected agression, hit the wrong newbie Piper I apologize I just felt frsutrated that the quote was being taken so out of context.

Fefonz Quan: i think he was pointing out the ideals that he whishes to follow in his presedancy
Samuel Okelly: the full text of his speech can be found at this link http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle5554819.ece
PiperLou Destiny: Im not saying that is it is scripture. I am just thinking it would mean all beings, not race. Because I did not see the word race in the qoute presented
Solobill Laville: Well, it is also about each of our persectives and what we bring to the table
Fefonz Quan: it doesn;t say that they can be met precisely
Solobill Laville: TO me, being here in the US, in a very racially divisive part of the country
Solobill Laville: race was primary
genesis Zhangsun: again thats why this is about the context
genesis Zhangsun: it is necessary to view in context
Samuel Okelly: in the run up to the elction the democrats were saying that it was NOT about race
genesis Zhangsun: I am not saying this is a race issue only that it was historic day for African Americans in this country
genesis Zhangsun: not that his whole platform was about race
Fefonz Quan: maybe the election weren't but the results are in part
Pila Mulligan is Online
genesis Zhangsun: the results?
genesis Zhangsun: Hey Pila
Fefonz Quan: of the election. i agrre with you, it can be a historical momnet
Pila Mulligan: hi
Solobill Laville: Heya, Pila
Samuel Okelly: hey pila :)
Fefonz Quan: without being the main issue in the election
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Pila :)
Fefonz Quan: Hey Pila
Fefonz Quan: moreover, the fact that maybe during the election of the people they DIDN't consider race as the main issue, that's the big change and achievement
Solobill Laville: Other issues were bigger than race, perhaps ;)
genesis Zhangsun: yes I agree with you Fefonz
Gaya Ethaniel nods in agreement also
Samuel Okelly: . The BO marketing team constantly made it clear that “race” was not an issue, rather that their man was simply “the best man for the job”. Clearly this was wrong and, in my view, disingenuous and deceitful as “race” was clearly an issue given the historical context in which he, BO, was placed. He may or may not have been the best man for the job however “race” was an issue as it allowed the electorate to identify itself with being part of a much greater historical event and one that his opponent could never compete with.
genesis Zhangsun: "marketing team"?

I thought it was about time that Samuel confront the slanted and biased language he is using and attempting to pass off as neutral

Samuel Okelly: indeed
Samuel Okelly: BO wasnt doing his own PR
genesis Zhangsun: oh is that what their calling campaigns these days?
genesis Zhangsun: :)
genesis Zhangsun: lingo is changing all the time :)
Solobill Laville: Hmmm...he gave a speech directly about race, which in turn deflated it
Samuel Okelly: there is no value judgment implied here
Fefonz Quan: you will be right, Samuel, if you think he was elected BECAUSE of his race, rather then other characteristics
genesis Zhangsun: Sam you can quit making the disclaimers
genesis Zhangsun: you can't just say something then put a disclaimer to weaken its effect
Samuel Okelly: i CAN if the inferrence by others implies a strawman fallacy on my part
genesis Zhangsun: just say what you want to say
genesis Zhangsun: which you are clearly doing :)
Samuel Okelly: i try :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Sorry what's strawman fallacy?
Solobill Laville: Well, I'm sure there is a lot more that we don't know then we do know
Solobill Laville: I also think there is a subtle yet vital difference between race being "not an issue" vs
Samuel Okelly: where ppl attack a misinterreption of an argument instead of the stated premise
Solobill Laville: "making race and issue"
Solobill Laville: *an
Solobill Laville: yes, and I am trying to focus on the premise :) (emphasis on trying)
Solobill Laville shrugs
Solobill Laville: I dono't recall the BO campaign ever actually saying "race is not an issue"
genesis Zhangsun: I agree with you Solo
Gaya Ethaniel: [For anyone who doesn't know what Straw Man Fallacy is... http://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...straw-man.html]
Solobill Laville: Which goes against the first premise of the last quote you posted, Sam
Butch Dae is Offline
Solobill Laville: "The BO marketing team constantly made it clear that “race” was not an issue..."
Solobill Laville: A big danger in the US is to not make race an issue
genesis Zhangsun: some might say too Solo BO won despite his race
Solobill Laville: yup
Fefonz Quan: yip
genesis Zhangsun: which is supported by the fact that there hasn't been a black president yet
Samuel Okelly: many of the celebs I saw in the run up to the election eg Oprah Winfrey were saying this too don’t vote for BO because he is black but because he is the best man for the job
Fefonz Quan: (every time yiou write that BO, i can't help but think of Bo Didly, the only BO i know of :))
genesis Zhangsun: so was it just the the time was ripe? or that BO was in fact "the best man" who happened to be black
genesis Zhangsun: hard to say I am not making the call
Solobill Laville: RIght, Sam, which is different from when Jesse Jackson ran in 84
genesis Zhangsun: hehe yes this BO thing is funny Fefonz :)
Fefonz Quan: or maybe just people wanted the change so badly, that the republicans were in disadvantage to begin with
genesis Zhangsun: I pick d) all of the above :)
Gaya Ethaniel silently giggles again
Solobill Laville: I DO think, personally, that the BO campaign was very savvy in that emphasizing race would push away some
Samuel Okelly: i agree 100% fef....i strongly suspect that that the elctorate allowed themselves to be caught "in a moment of great significance"
Samuel Okelly: It was also clear that Republicans were also fighting the massive unpopularity of incumbent president George W. Bush. Even though they were successful in keeping his image away from playing a large prt of their promotional literature, there was no evading the fact that his presence cast a dark shadow over the Republicain campaign and was always going to be there. This was an added facet to the Republican campaign that Democrats did not have to tackle. In short, republican were fighting an additional campaign that their Democratic did not have t contend with. In this way, a vote for Barack Obama can be seen as much as a vote against George W. Bush as much as a vote of support for Barack Obama.
genesis Zhangsun: "caught" v. aligned with the moment of great significance I would question
Gaya Ethaniel: XD chatspam
Samuel Okelly: (apologies for the long text btw)
Pila Mulligan is Online
genesis Zhangsun: didn't feel like a sort mob fervor to me anyway
Fefonz Quan: well, you do type fast, Sam :)
Solobill Laville: Yes, that is true Gen
Gaya Ethaniel: [Sorry I'm in hyper mood... too much sugar]
genesis Zhangsun: I say it was about time
Solobill Laville: What is your source there, Sam?
Samuel Okelly: for the long text?
genesis Zhangsun: there is a longer text?
Solobill Laville: Well, the last seems more likee the Economist, where the other stuff seems like Fox
Samuel Okelly: it was entirely my own observation
Solobill Laville: from an editorial perspective
Samuel Okelly: lol
Samuel Okelly: i give you my word that i wrote that myself
Gaya Ethaniel notices 'Obama Hype' in Samuel's Profile Picks
Solobill Laville: So, you are quoting yourself on all the things you've put in here so far?
Samuel Okelly: i make no secret of my position here (as seen in my pics)
Storm Nordwind is Online
Solobill Laville: Or you really do type 600 words / minute?
Solobill Laville: ;)
Samuel Okelly: :)
Samuel Okelly: it is simply that i have give this quite some thought already
Samuel Okelly: given
Solobill Laville: Well, nice work! Though I still the premise(s) differently... :)
Fefonz Quan: i can suggest a view that is less sharp and more in teh Being atpmosphere
Solobill Laville: *see
genesis Zhangsun: I stick to my strawman's fallacy :)
genesis Zhangsun: Oh yes please Fefonz
genesis Zhangsun: it 2 minutes to the hour big picture time!
Fefonz Quan: i also feel that obama is not the pure bright perfect person as might come up during the last celebrations
Fefonz Quan: he has some fallacies, and yet he came here in a special moment in history.
Solobill Laville: If he is, he isn't for politics...
Gaya Ethaniel: ouch
Fefonz Quan: So now, after all teh reasons that brought him here - let's just "be" with him for a while
Fefonz Quan: and see what happens in reality
Fefonz Quan: not dreams, expectattion, reasons etc.
Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks gotta go to Kira now
Gaya Ethaniel: Enjoy your day
Samuel Okelly: tc gay
genesis Zhangsun: see you Gaya
genesis Zhangsun: Gilles's Philosophy seminar
Fefonz Quan: and hopefully he will do good.
Solobill Laville: Bye, folks, thanks for the spirited convo!
Samuel Okelly: tc sol
Fefonz Quan: yes, i'm going there too, thanks all
genesis Zhangsun: thanks everyone
genesis Zhangsun: yes indeed spirited
PiperLou Destiny smiles, thank you
genesis Zhangsun: bye Sam!
genesis Zhangsun: bye Piper
Fefonz Quan: Bye sam, piper
PiperLou Destiny: Have a wonderful day, evening
Samuel Okelly: tc every1 :)

It was useful for me to have this interaction as I found parts of it pretty frustrating and uncomfortable.  It is good training in dealing with people you may not agree with in a open and compassionate way.  I could just see my agression rising before me and watching it guide my fingers over the key board at times, which I felt was a good step up from the past when I probably would not have been so aware of it thereby letting me consume me even more.  I really appreciated the group response (especially Fefonz and Solobill though everyone contributed something) which reminded me to be fair and engaged, not angry and disengaged. A theme that I am exploring this year in 2009 of Chogam Trungpa is the concept of the "manure of experience and the field of bodhi."  The idea that every experience no matter how much it stinks is workable and if used skillfully can be the raw material from which an enlightened presence or bodhi grows.  So when the stinkiest situations pop up, those people who someone are able to push your buttons, these are the best experiences from which to grow, to refine, to cultivate a better way to exist.  So thanks for the BS and BO!  I really mean it :)