2011.03.25 06:00 - Walking in a World without beings

The Guardian for this meeting was Adams Rubble. The comments are by Adams Rubble.

The claiment was late arriving and thanks the autologger for saving the early parts.

Pema Pera: hi Bruce!
Bruce Mowbray: Good morning, Maxine!
Pema Pera: hi Maxine!
Maxine Walden: hi, Pema, Bruce and all, still rezzing
Maxine Walden: seeing all the party doings!
Pema Pera: yes!
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)

The Reports

Bruce Mowbray is giving a second read to the reports. . .
Pema Pera scrambling to catch up . . .
Bruce Mowbray saved a copy of Riddle's ToDo List.
Maxine Walden: yes, also reading the reports with a smile...
Pema Pera: yes, Riddle's list is such a great picture!!
Bruce Mowbray: yes ;-)
Maxine Walden: also love Eliza's 'sandcastles'
Pema Pera: yes, and Maxine's chamber orchestra :)
Maxine Walden: :)
Bruce Mowbray thinks he should have one of those looping CD players.
Maxine Walden: and Pema's different textures, eg lazy waves of feelings
Pema Pera: and Bruce's We do what we can (in doing nothing) :-)
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Maxine Walden: and his lovely picture on the beach...
Pema Pera: yes, that was quite striking!
Maxine Walden: also interested in the slight reluctance in some of us to try the practice...as if delinquent, 'homework to do', etc
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I also noted that, Maxine.
Maxine Walden: just trying to observe that pebble
Pema Pera: yes, to be told not to do anything is not so easy . . . .
Maxine Walden: might be as if an external authority....
Maxine Walden: also wondering about an internal reluctance
Pema Pera: interesting also that there are three of us, today, rather than the usual ten or so :-)
Maxine Walden: yes! wondering about that pebble as well!

Pema's makes a "radical" observation

Pema Pera: perhaps "doing nothing" was understood as applying to coming to Time sessions too -- very radical :-)
Maxine Walden: :))
Maxine Walden: maybe so!!
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Pema Pera: Eliza had a RL appointment, she told me, and some others may be busy preparing for the SL retreat this weekend
Maxine Walden: ah, yes. That may be....

..and the claiment was detained by communication with co-workers in RL

TSK and Time Books theme starts but switches to non-conceptual knowing

Pema Pera: Maxine, last year we read the TSK book, which took more than half a year
Maxine Walden: I recall
Pema Pera: and now we have followed the Time book, also for more than half a year
Bruce Mowbray: One remarkable "result" of my walks down the beach was a much clearer experience of non-conceptual knowing.
Maxine Walden: :)
Pema Pera: would you want to comment on similarities and differences?
--BELL--
Pema Pera: great, Bruce!
Yakuzza Lethecus: good morning everyone
Pema Pera: hi Yaku!
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Yaku!
Maxine Walden: yes, I rather agree, I also just a bit curious this time about that same clarity -- a non-conceptual 'knowing' or perceiving...and more relaxed to just be and witness
Pema Pera: knowing without words and ideas . . .
Maxine Walden: perhaps not reaching after some 'form' or'certainty'...
Pema Pera: seeing . . .
Pema Pera: seeing directly
Maxine Walden: I am not sure I would quite call it a knowing, but yes, a seeing
Maxine Walden: because for me, at least right now, knowing conveys more a coherence of 'data' and I think just letting a seeing without that coherence is at hand
Bruce Mowbray: Well, for me, I usualy categorize my perceptions and thoughts -- almost compulsively . . .
Maxine Walden: know that sense, Bruce
Maxine Walden: (brb, getting coffee)
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Maxine -- the "coherence" for me often "needs" to be something inside a category or a "collection."
Bruce Mowbray: and my mind wants to do that collecting, usually, in a compulsive way -- thinking that it has to do that in order to "know."
Bruce Mowbray: so non-conceptual (non-collecting) knowing is also a possibility -- and a refreshing one.
Yakuzza Lethecus: hello fefonz!
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Fef.
Pema Pera: Hi Fef!
Fefonz Quan: Hi Timers :)
Maxine Walden: back.
Maxine Walden: hi, Fef

Pema throws out some scenarios for consideration:

Pema Pera: if suddenly a car swerves, into the direction where you are walking, you jump to the side -- would you call that a form of knowing, Maxine?
Maxine Walden: hmm, maybe at a reactive level, but the reflex does not go through the brain circuits, but a reflexive protective response...let me think whether that is a 'knowing' for me
Pema Pera: how about being suddenly hit by a ray of sun light, from between dark clouds, while going for a walk, and then smiling?
Maxine Walden: yes, yes, that is a kind of receptiveness in that sunlight experience, and for me, somehow receiving something, welcoming comes closer to a sojourn through my psyche
Pema Pera: how about suddenly having a deep feeling of grace descending upon you, while going for a walk, and just basking in that without reacting/responding?
Pema Pera: would you call those cases knowing? they seem to be rather non-conceptual, mostly
Maxine Walden: yes, for me that sense of grace and the basking is a kind of 'at-onement' which is a 'knowing' and 'being known' of a sort
Fefonz Quan feels we just need to be careful with defining any wave of emotion as 'knowing'
Yakuzza Lethecus: i usually see these things if i don´t try to see them, i have the feeling that i can be very open and ,,knowing" by accident sometimes as soon as i try to formalize it´s often gone, actually ,,wanting" often totally inhibits this for me
Pema Pera: interesting point, Yaku, yes, I recognize that
Pema Pera: hi Adams!
Maxine Walden: hi, Adams
Adams Rubble: Hello All, sorry to interrupt
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Adams.
Fefonz Quan: /nods to Yaku, 'wanting' carries some stress that spoils it
Yakuzza Lethecus: morning adams
Pema Pera: and we also have to be careful to label moving insights as just "waves of emotion", Fefonz :-)
Fefonz Quan: Hi Adams
Maxine Walden: Agree, Yaku, a narrowing of focus or 'working' to conceptualize often closes down the openness
Fefonz Quan: yep :)
Pema Pera: our terms for thoughts, insights, emotions, feelings, knowings, are all very imprecise . . . .
Maxine Walden: openness seems important to me re non-conceptual knowing as we are thinking about it right now
Bruce Mowbray ponders wanting to collect "knowings" and wanting to make them coherent.
Pema Pera: we can fill thick books with detailed descriptions of the details of the body -- but we are so poor at even every-day ways of describing the mind . . . . .
Fefonz Quan: coherency might lead to specles in that sense :)
Fefonz Quan: speckles*
Maxine Walden: :) agree Pema
Bruce Mowbray: First Thought Best Thought ?
Maxine Walden: hmm
Pema Pera: :-)
Bruce Mowbray: or NO thought, best though?
Bruce Mowbray: thought*
Pema Pera: even better :)
--BELL--
Bruce Mowbray: Somehow, there seems to be a opening and a readiness -- an acceptance. . .
Adams Rubble: thoughtless
Maxine Walden: thanks, Adams
Pema Pera: Thank you very much, Adams!
Fefonz Quan: yes, opening and acceptance come together, and when totally open - no wanting can be

Pema Returns to the comparison of the books with Maxine who attended both the TSK and Time Book Sessions

Pema Pera: Maxine, would you be interested in comparing TSK reading and reading the current book that I'm writing -- what for you the main similarities and differences are?
Fefonz Quan: (or when fully accepting)
Bruce Mowbray: What I mean is, we have so many reactive patterns - both physically and emotionally - to experience, if we can enter a way of mind that is ready, receptive, and accepting , then there is a chance of non-conceptual knowing.
Maxine Walden: ah, yes, perhaps that was an earlier question today, Pema...let me have a think.
Fefonz Quan: Your book is much more readable, Pema :)
Adams Rubble: :)
Pema Pera: thanks, Fefonz :-)
Pema Pera: and yes, Bruce!
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Bleu.
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey bleu :)
Pema Pera: hi Bleu!
Fefonz Quan: though it does have the Koanness quality at some corners
Adams Rubble: Hello Bleu :)
Pema Pera: reactivity limits and closes off
Maxine Walden: My recall is that I had to 'work' more with TSK, both in my newness to the material, but also that there was a mountain to climb. it took quite a while to relax into 'just letting be' what I could be open to. With your book, and perhaps because I know you and we have this experience of the group, I am much more relaxed, less anxious about 'getting it' and open to the explorations as mutual and 'unjudged'...
Pema Pera: glad to hear that, Fefonz, it shouldn't be toooo clear
Bleu Oleander: (slips in quietly ... "time" seems to be my only problem getting to the time session)
Pema Pera: interesting, Maxine, yes, there are many differences simultaneously
Maxine Walden: there is mystery here as with TSK, but less daunting
Pema Pera: sorry to have it so early, Bleu -- you don't have daylight saving time, correct?
Bleu Oleander: on CA time now
Pema Pera: did the daunting aspect lessen, by the time you had read the whole book, Maxine?
Pema Pera: Oh, 6 am is early indeed, Bleu!
Bleu Oleander: working on adjusting to the new time :)
Fefonz Quan: Pema's book is somehow more gentle in the way it leads the reader through the maze - maybe a reflectin of the different writers character? ;-)
Bleu Oleander: agree Fef
Maxine Walden: daunting lessen re reading the whole TSK book? Yes, I was more familiar with it, but still I think I felt a bit 'daunted' as if just having trekked a long way
Pema Pera: :-)
Pema Pera: Perhaps my book could function as a kind of introduction to the TSK book; the TSK book goes deeper in several ways
Maxine Walden: while here, perhaps because of our group and mutual 'knowing' I feel less 'daunted', more in gentle wildnerness as others seem to be suggesting
Pema Pera: from bewildering to wilderness :-)
Bleu Oleander: how so Pema?
Fefonz Quan: Yes, interesting thought Pema.
Bleu Oleander: deeper through the exercises?
Pema Pera: no, not the exercises
Pema Pera: the main text
Pema Pera: hmmmm, how to put that into words
Pema Pera: for one thing, the tsk vision really talks about a world without beings
Pema Pera: there are no beings there
Fefonz Quan: TSK reminds the difficulty of reading a philosophy book, with a lot of specific terms and notations
Pema Pera: while I still write as if there are beings, including human beings, trying to get it and do exercises and all that
Pema Pera: the TSK book is two books
Pema Pera: the exercise part is more like the book I am writing
Maxine Walden: Think I felt stretched in the TSK, recall a kind of 'reaching' for (and surprised to experience) the timelessness
Pema Pera: while the text goes far deeper
Pema Pera: yes, Maxine
Pema Pera: I guess my book is somewhere inbetween the exercise-book of TSK and the text-book of TSK :-)
Adams Rubble wonders if Pema might be writing to a specific group of readers too
Fefonz Quan: a middle way... hmmm
Pema Pera: not that I am aware of, Adams
Pema Pera: of course, I have been influenced by my experience in PaB
Pema Pera: no doubt
Pema Pera: but I'm not trying to specifically address any particular group
Pema Pera: not more or less so than the TSK book

Seeing a Situation without Identifying with it Yourself

Pema Pera: does that notion make any sense -- to view/sense/see a situation in RL without identifying with you yourself being a being in the landscape of impressions, but rather just letting it all be?
--BELL--
Pema Pera: shall we try that now during the break?

Short interlude for Vipassana (seeing things as they really are)

Fefonz Quan: BTW - reading the end of chapter 12 - it's one of the best instruction I've read of how doing Vipassanna, without naming it of course
Bleu Oleander: what is Vipassanna?
Fefonz Quan: (of course, the temporal 'end' of the chapter)
Pema Pera: (thank, Fef :-)
Pema Pera: (now you'll have to explain Vipassana, Fef!)
Bleu Oleander: :)
Fefonz Quan: well, it's one of the main buddhist meditation, and in fact it is like Pema said - just watching all the is, arise and declines.
Fefonz Quan: all that is *
Bruce Mowbray: and making no collections.

World without Beings

Pema Pera: did anybody get a chance to be in a world without beings?
Pema Pera: YES, Bruce!
Fefonz Quan: how can that be answered Pema?
Bleu Oleander: without beings?
Bruce Mowbray: a world of Being - without individual beings. . . ?
Fefonz Quan: maybe we all had a chance, but did we take it?
Pema Pera: as Bruce said, Fef :-)
Maxine Walden: When I allow a decoherence of thought and perception maybe I come closer to 'without beings' than when I strive to 'know' or cohere my perceptions especially inner perceptions
Fefonz Quan: seems like a very intimidating world for a start
Pema Pera: that can be a way in, Maxine, for sure, but is not a condition -- we can also be very precise and alert to details
Pema Pera: letting yourself be seen is related
Pema Pera: and so is subject/object reversal
Pema Pera: we can actually let our walking do the walking, thinking do the thinking, typing do the typing, without imputing a central little dictator/conductor/leader called I :-)
Maxine Walden: each of these suggests getting out of the way of 'being' the observing subject
Pema Pera: as we learn to do in sports and in many creative activities
Fefonz Quan stuck with the watcher...
Pema Pera: one with the flow
Fefonz Quan: is stuck*
Pema Pera: :-)
Bruce Mowbray: no need for ego-cherishing or protection.
Pema Pera: letting time act
Pema Pera: yes, Bruce; what we normally call "thinking" is often more a hindrance than a help
Pema Pera: a tendency to hit the brakes
Pema Pera: out of fear or timidity
Pema Pera: when we feel the creative process goes too fast
Pema Pera: too direct
Maxine Walden: or we fear being swept away (by not being in charge)
Pema Pera: hence the examples of being (almost) hit by a car, a sunray, or grace :-)
Pema Pera: in which there is no room for thinking
Pema Pera: YES, Maxine!
Bleu Oleander: If we allow the self process to callapse and disappear completely, I think the mind would lose its orientation and the ability to know anything, no?
Fefonz Quan: (rl calls, brb)
Bruce Mowbray: Folks, I am to convene a meditation at Soul's Journey in five minutes. Must be going.
Bruce Mowbray: Thank you all.
Pema Pera: that's different, Bleu
Bleu Oleander: the very act of knowing you are not thinking is thinking and a self knowing it
Bruce Mowbray: Enjoy a happy day.
Maxine Walden: bye, Bruce
Adams Rubble: bye Bruce :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye bruce
Pema Pera: bye Bruce!
Bruce Mowbray: Thanks, Pema!
Bleu Oleander: bye Bruce
Pema Pera: no-self here doesn't mean becoming like a zombie or a baby, on the contrary
Pema Pera: it means less elaborate censorship from the ploddingly thinking mind
Pema Pera: a more light way of thinking less involved with identifying in heavy ways
Pema Pera: a lighter more creative gait, so to speak
Pema Pera: not sure how to choose the right words . . .
Pema Pera: the parallel with a dictator is interesting . . . . when a dictator is asked to step down, the first reaction is: the country will descend into chaos!!!
Pema Pera: they need me!!!
Bleu Oleander: still thinking but lighter?
Maxine Walden: for me, trust in not being in charge of the show...
Pema Pera: yes, Bleu, definitely not denying or avoiding thinking
Maxine Walden: our narcissism, (need to be in charge or chaos reins) can be a dictator
Pema Pera: but not in the heavy slow step-by-step way
Maxine Walden: have to go...thanks for great conversation
Pema Pera: a different kind of knowing/thinking/seeing, more direct
Pema Pera: bye Maxine!
Bleu Oleander: bye Maxine
Maxine Walden: bye for now
Adams Rubble: bye Maxine
Yakuzza Lethecus: take care maxine and all leavers
Pema Pera: If you remind me, Bleu, I'm happy to take that topic up next time!
Pema Pera: a week from now
Bleu Oleander: ok great
--BELL--
Adams Rubble: Hello Luci :)
Pema Pera: I have to leave now; have an appointment at work in a few minutes
Pema Pera: hi Lucinda!
Bleu Oleander: thanks Pema, bye
Adams Rubble: I have to go too
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey luci
Bleu Oleander: hi Luci
Adams Rubble: bye Pema :)
Pema Pera: you look so festive, Luci!
Lucinda Lavender: Hi Pema:)
Adams Rubble: I will stop the recorder
Pema Pera: thank you, and bye for now!