2013.08.31 01:00 - Formal and Informal Selves!

eliza happily posted this session, and some others, that were really interesting and/or touching and fabulous in unique ways. PaB, surprises.

[01:05] Wol Euler: timezone-appropriate greetings, carl
[01:05] carlicann Resident: Greetings Wol
[01:06] carlicann Resident: I was thinking about intention
[01:06] Wol Euler: mmm?
[01:06] carlicann Resident: it's like quitting smoking
[01:06] carlicann Resident: it's an intervention
[01:06] carlicann Resident: in the natural unfolding our our spirits....
[01:06] carlicann Resident: especially when it fails
[01:07] carlicann Resident: intention.. is our rational minds trying to overcome
[01:07] carlicann Resident: who we really are or destined to be
[01:07] Wol Euler ponders.
[01:08] Wol Euler: that makes "who we really are" a rather negative thing.
[01:08] Wol Euler: what does "really" mean?
[01:08] Wol Euler: (yes, the rest of it is sound. Intervention is a good comparison)

[01:09] carlicann Resident: intervention is not a bad thing... teach is an intervention... imho... changing the trajectory of someone's life
[01:09] Wol Euler: agreed :)
[01:10] Wol Euler: intervention is positive, at least as we are using it here
[01:10] carlicann Resident: "intention" in the quitting smoking sense.. is like a cattle prod...
[01:10] carlicann Resident: i think... a better way is to have a vision... acquire the skills ... and follow ur dream

[01:11] Wol Euler: can you phrase that better way so that it includes a "non-violent" sense of intention? :)
[01:12] Wol Euler: if you don't intend to follow the dream, why start and how would you keep going?
[01:12] carlicann Resident: interesting... intention is spiritual violence... you are going against ur natural inclinations .. ur at war with yourself.. if you have explicit intentions... that might be disobeyed
[01:13] carlicann Resident: example: I intend to lose weight...
[01:13] carlicann Resident: but then I don't... Waaaaah!
[01:13] carlicann Resident: I intent to quit smoking... but then I don't... Waaaah!
[01:13] carlicann Resident: Spiritual war with oneself...
[01:14] Wol Euler nods.

[01:14] Wol Euler: so a dream that is followed is not an intention?
[01:16] carlicann Resident: I was thinking about that... let's consider the connotations of "vision"
[01:17] carlicann Resident: a dream is a vision
[01:17] carlicann Resident: purpose is a form of vision
[01:17] carlicann Resident: intention is a fragment of a vision.... some place we want to arrive at
[01:17] carlicann Resident: willful intention... that we may disobey... is a fracture in our vision
[01:18] carlicann Resident: maybe the vision is incorrect if we naturally can't make our "being" go there
[01:18] Wol Euler nods.

[01:19] carlicann Resident: I quit smoking when a guru told us... "Smoking is sending a spiritual message: I am very tough and not afraid to die. SEE! I am smoking cancer sticks!"
[01:19] Wol Euler: heheheheh
[01:19] carlicann Resident: That is not the message I wished to send.. and quit immediately
[01:20] carlicann Resident: I had been fighting that battle with myself for decades... and the guru's insight solved it
[01:20] Wol Euler nods.
[01:20] Wol Euler: that's fascinating, carl
[01:21] Wol Euler: I'm thinking about how to express what happened there in the form of an intention
[01:21] Wol Euler: and I'm thinking htat maybe it can't be, cannot sensibly be. the word "intention" is wrong, what happened there is just a fact.


[01:22] Wol Euler: do you know the expression "wu wei"? "do without doing"

[01:22] carlicann Resident: my intention was to quit smoking... and constantly failed at that... dozens of times... but when my spiritual direction changed... smoking was no longer me...
[01:22] Wol Euler nods.
[01:23] Wol Euler: okay, now I'm beginning to see what you meant about "what we really are" back at the beginning
[01:23] Wol Euler: but if you changed so easily and so radically, was smoking really part of your being?

[01:25] Wol Euler: one of the ideas of PaB at the beginning was to distinguish between what we are and what we do (or have)
[01:26] Wol Euler: to say "my job is in architecture" rather than "I am an architect"
[01:26] Wol Euler: because the "I am" form puts a solid barrier around me which the other does not
[01:27] carlicann Resident: that's a hard paradigm shift for Americans...
[01:27] carlicann Resident: we identify with our jobs...
[01:27] Wol Euler chuckles.
[01:28] Wol Euler: as do we :) but the point of the shift is to see oneself and one's place in the world diffrerently
[01:28] Wol Euler: to avoid putting labels on things (including yourself)

[01:29] Wol Euler: that is why I reacted to your saying "what we really are", because that seems to me a very harsh and negative label
[01:29] Wol Euler: if what you are is the bad habit to be overcome
[01:29] Wol Euler: I am not this habit, I have a habit, or I do this thing
[01:30] carlicann Resident: well.. hypothesis... there is an explicit and an implicit self..... the explicit self levys intention on the implicit self... and often fails
[01:30] carlicann Resident: the implicit self is who we really are Bada Bing

[01:31] carlicann Resident: there is a similar concept in organizations.. the formal and informal organization
[01:31] carlicann Resident: informal organization runs the show... informal org owns the "conversation"
[01:31] carlicann Resident: oops! lol
[01:32] Wol Euler smiles.
[01:33] Wol Euler: mmhmm
[01:33] Wol Euler: in the way that I wished I enjoyed Tolstoy but actually read "50 Shades of Garbage"
[01:33] Wol Euler grins.
[01:34] carlicann Resident: 50 shades... aye ... there was a novel like that I read long ago... something like 9 Weeks.... quite odd... didn't turn my fancy
[01:35] Wol Euler: so the intention is to change the underlying informal self
[01:35] Wol Euler: improving the unstated reality in the direction of formal policy :)
[01:35] carlicann Resident: is destined to fail IMHO... it's top down thinking...
[01:36] carlicann Resident: all real change should happen bottom up

[01:36] Wol Euler: okay, let's go back to your guru and the smoking.
[01:36] Wol Euler: can you talk about that in terms of the formal and informal self?

[01:36] carlicann Resident: kk
[01:37] carlicann Resident: informal self sending a spiritual message... that was not consciously recognized
[01:37] carlicann Resident: a powerful message...
[01:37] carlicann Resident: excrutiatingly obvious... those are some of the most hard to understand
[01:37] carlicann Resident: When the guru spoke.. he broke the bubble
[01:37] Wol Euler: whose bubble? on which level=
[01:38] Wol Euler: ?
[01:38] carlicann Resident: informal self was doing something horrid.... and quite obvious
[01:38] carlicann Resident: guru broke that realization open
[01:39] carlicann Resident: then I had to change... the self disinginuity was gone
[01:39] Wol Euler listens.
[01:40] carlicann Resident: disinginuity... a new word LOL... but means... different parts of myself were working on different agendas.. and we were not communicating
[01:40] Wol Euler nods.

[01:40] carlicann Resident: the guru helped us to understand what was going on... when we finally connected... change happened... I did not merely intend to quit.. We Quit!
[01:41] Wol Euler smiles.
[01:41] carlicann Resident: that's interesting... we are multiple personalities LOL
[01:41] Wol Euler: so he "woke up" the informl self to what it was doing?
[01:42] Wol Euler: oh yes, of course we are! hehehe. All of us, always.
[01:42] Wol Euler: meditation and introspection just make that clear
[01:42] carlicann Resident: ahhhh
[01:42] Wol Euler: taking off the labels again

[01:42] Wol Euler: remove the label that says "I am" this particular single thing, and you can see the dozens and dozens of little things that you also are
[01:43] carlicann Resident: "I am" the formal self... but I don't rule the roost lol
[01:43] Wol Euler: mmhmm

[01:43] Wol Euler: I see this all the time in meditation
[01:43] Wol Euler: so many layers of stuff going on

[01:43] Wol Euler: there is a "me" who is counting breaths

[01:43] Wol Euler: another is humming music

[01:43] Wol Euler: a third is drawing up memory images or scenes from last night's dream

[01:43] Wol Euler: a fourth is saying "stop that, clear your mind"

[01:44] carlicann Resident: woah.. a lot going on
[01:44] Wol Euler: and a fifth is thinking about how to tell my mentor what I experienced in this meditation :)

[01:44] Wol Euler: which of all those is the "real me"?

[01:44] Wol Euler: trick question :)
[01:44] carlicann Resident: aye
[01:44] carlicann Resident: and all that happening... at 10 cycles per second ...
[01:44] carlicann Resident: a miracle
[01:45] carlicann Resident: brain's neurons are approx 100msec between beats
[01:46] carlicann Resident: woah Wol... that's awesome introspection
[01:47] Wol Euler: I've had practice at it :)
[01:47] carlicann Resident: the formal self... and at least 4 informal selves... hmmmm
[01:48] Wol Euler: that is how I explain intuition to myself, actually: an informal self coming to the surface with a fact that it noticed
[01:48] carlicann Resident: kk... i get it
[01:48] Wol Euler: and the formal self, which thinks it's alone, looks around and says "what? who said that?"
[01:49] carlicann Resident: ahhhh
[01:49] carlicann Resident: the informal selves are more intelligent in their own way
[01:49] Wol Euler: mmhmm
[01:49] Wol Euler: differently
[01:49] Wol Euler: perhaps not more
[01:49] Wol Euler: (I try to avoid judging them)

[01:50] Wol Euler: they see different things, because they don't take part in the system of labels and judgements that the formal self has laid down
[01:50] carlicann Resident: it's an interesting theory of being... wonders if someone's documented this... I've not encountered this before
[01:50] carlicann Resident: Freud gave us the concious and unconscious self.. concepts.. but we are taking that idea to another level
[01:51] carlicann Resident: ahhh only the formal self takes labels... interesting
[01:51] Wol Euler: "I contain multitudes"
[01:51] carlicann Resident: woah!!!!
[01:51] Wol Euler: well that is my interpretation
[01:51] Wol Euler: of where the difference arises
[01:52] Wol Euler: perhaps the others have their own labels too, and are reacting to those
[01:52] carlicann Resident: well.. it's a whole new way of viewing humanity and reality...
[01:52] carlicann Resident: i accept it
[01:52] Wol Euler: as when the sub-self that is responsible for putting tunes into my mind is triggered to pick a particular one
[01:52] carlicann Resident: <--- can actually change the tune lol

[01:52] Wol Euler: hello hana! happy saturday
[01:53] carlicann Resident: Hello Hana! Great to CU!
[01:53] Hana Furlough: Hello Wol and Carl!
[01:53] Hana Furlough: Happy Saturday to you both, too!
[01:53] Wol Euler: have you met? Hana is a long-standing member, Carl is a few days old in PaB but well-established in SL. An educator
[01:53] carlicann Resident: Hi Hana!

[01:54] carlicann Resident: Wol is deeply blowing my mind omg!
[01:54] Hana Furlough: Welcome, Carl! Pleased to meet you
[01:54] Wol Euler smiles.
[01:54] Hana Furlough: As he always does : )
[01:54] Wol Euler: Hana is studying and teaching poetry in Japan
[01:55] Wol Euler: and observing nature inside and out :)
[01:55] Hana Furlough: : )
[01:55] Hana Furlough: aspiring to observe
[01:55] carlicann Resident: nice!
[01:55] Wol Euler smiles.

[01:56] carlicann Resident: I love poetry... did not discover it until just recently... like 1 year ago... out of 50 something
[01:56] Wol Euler listens.
[01:57] Hana Furlough: I didn't discover it at first either
[01:57] Hana Furlough: I overlooked it
[01:57] Wol Euler: yeah
[01:57] Hana Furlough: but then it found me
[01:57] carlicann Resident: Wol and I met at the Poetic Drum Circle... I facillitated
[01:57] Wol Euler smiles.
[01:57] Wol Euler: the crap that is taught in school is designed to prevent kids from liking poetry
[01:57] carlicann Resident: omg
[01:57] Wol Euler: "the BOY stood ON the BURNing DECK, whence ALL but HE had FLED.§"
[01:57] Wol Euler: who wants to read that?
[01:58] carlicann Resident: If you know how to read.. you can read poetry...
[01:58] carlicann Resident: and wooo gurls and stuff LOL
[01:58] Wol Euler: yeah, but which child knows that?
[01:58] Wol Euler: knows it with enough certainty to withstand the peer pressure saying it's crap?
[01:58] Hana Furlough: Wol, you're absolutely right
[01:59] Hana Furlough: I try really hard not to do that to my students
[01:59] Wol Euler smiles.

[01:59] Hana Furlough: First comes appreciation
[01:59] Hana Furlough: We can talk about historical interpretations, and we do

[02:01] carlicann Resident: The bell has tolled for me.. I need to take a break...
[02:02] Wol Euler: sleep well, carl
[02:02] carlicann Resident: Love U my friends! Peace! and Harmony!
[02:02] Wol Euler: take care
[02:02] Hana Furlough: Good night, Carl!
[02:02] Wol Euler: how are you, hana?
[02:02] Hana Furlough: good good, and you?
[02:03] Hana Furlough: You had a deadline, right?
[02:03] Wol Euler: have, coming up. Friday noon
[02:04] Hana Furlough: Oh dear, hang in there
[02:04] Wol Euler: thanks
[02:04] Wol Euler: going to be a working weekend and a lot of late nights
[02:05] Wol Euler: and we just wasted two days running down what turned out to be a dead end
[02:05] Hana Furlough: It happens, doesn't it
[02:05] Wol Euler: yeah
[02:05] Wol Euler: need not have done, this was pure indecision
[02:05] Wol Euler: anyway, I'm not going there.
[02:05] Wol Euler: water under bridges and all that
[02:05] Hana Furlough: It's okay, you can
[02:06] Wol Euler: no, I don't want to ;)

[02:06] Wol Euler: I dislike the part of me that would enjoy bitching about this
[02:06] Hana Furlough: I have that part too
[02:06] Hana Furlough: I often want to pretend like I don't
[02:06] Wol Euler: my inner whiny 4 year old
[02:06] Hana Furlough: and don't know what to do with it
[02:06] Hana Furlough: Haha yes

[02:07] Hana Furlough: Let us raise our glasses, to our inner whiny 4 year olds
[02:07] Wol Euler: kampai!
[02:07] Hana Furlough: haha!
[02:07] Hana Furlough: I wanted to write that, but I was worried you might not know
[02:07] Wol Euler: heheheh
[02:07] Hana Furlough: I should not have doubted you
[02:07] Hana Furlough: Kampai!
[02:07] Wol Euler smiles modestly.

[02:07] Hana Furlough: What's kampai in German?
[02:08] Wol Euler: Prosit!
[02:08] Hana Furlough: Okay, then Prosit as well!
[02:08] Wol Euler: *clink glasses*
[02:09] Hana Furlough: * clink! *
[02:10] Hana Furlough: Am I keeping you from work?
[02:10] Wol Euler: nope
[02:10] Wol Euler: shopping first, then some domestic stuff
[02:10] Wol Euler: work at 2
[02:10] Hana Furlough: Oh okay

[02:10] Wol Euler: and the washing macine is still running so I can't leave yet anyway
[02:11] Hana Furlough: Ahh I know that feeling well
[02:11] Hana Furlough: Often makes me a little late for the train
[02:12] Wol Euler nods.

[02:13] Wol Euler: but yes, I should get moving. Need to wash and dress and all that RL stuff before going downtown
[02:13] Hana Furlough: Right
[02:13] Wol Euler: see you tomorrow morning, I hope
[02:13] Wol Euler: and in the meantime have a nice evening
[02:13] Hana Furlough: Yeah, hopefully!
[02:13] Hana Furlough: Thank you
[02:13] Hana Furlough: and best of luck with work
[02:14] Wol Euler: thank you
[02:14] Hana Furlough: bye for now!