2010.10.01 06:00 - Time Session: Looking for Our Selves

This week's Time Session was very full, and very lively! 

Few comments necessary, just a few lines highlighted for clarity's sake and early greetings de-emphasized not as unimportant. -Eliza Madrigal.

Maxine Walden: hi, Yaku, Pema, Almond
Almond Andel: Hi pema
Pema Pera: Hi Almond, Yaku, Bruce, Maxine, Rinana!
Almond Andel: Hi rina-san!
Pema Pera: nice to see you both here, Almond and Rianna, welcome!
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi ri,bruce
Almond Andel: Nice to be here (from rianna too :)
Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Rianna, Pema, Yaku, Almond, and Maxine.
Bruce Mowbray: and Riddle.
Yakuzza Lethecus: riddle :)
Riddle Sideways: morning all
Darren Islar: hi everyone :)
Pema Pera: Welcome all !
Bleu Oleander: hi all :)
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Eliza.
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Bleu.
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Darren.
Pema Pera: Good to see you here again, Riddle!
Riddle Sideways: long time no

Pema Pera: Today we will be talking about chapter 6: http://wiki.playasbeing.org/PaB_Books/Magic_of_Time/6._Presence_in_Practice

Pema Pera: and thank you, Eliza !!
Pema Pera: and we will also talk about the reports on

http://wiki.playasbeing.org/PaB_Books/Magic_of_Time/Time_Sessions/Weekly_Reports/2010%2f%2f10%2f%2f01%3a_Reports
 

Eliza Madrigal: np :)
Pema Pera: I just *loved* the photograph that Bruce took in the museum . . . .
Maxine Walden: yes, :))
Pema Pera: the children absorbed on the ground, doing their own art
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Pema Pera: http://wiki.playasbeing.org/PaB_Books/Magic_of_Time/Time_Sessions/Weekly_Reports/2010%2f%2f10%2f%2f01%3a_Reports/2010.09.30%3a_Bruce_Mowbray
Pema Pera: Hi Vector!
Eliza Madrigal: Hello Vector :)
Maxine Walden: I also loved bleu's page, presence as
Darren Islar: hi Vector
Bleu Oleander: hi Vector :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hello vector
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Vector.
Vector Marksman: hello
Maxine Walden: white page, within a frame, sort of like her whiteness now?
Pema Pera: :-)
Bleu Oleander: yes, ty Maxine
Maxine Walden: :)
Eliza Madrigal: yes, appreciated both images very much...
Bleu Oleander: interesting juxtaposition
Eliza Madrigal: and I really loved adams report too... while saying he didn't do the homework it struck me as very 'present'
Pema Pera: hahaha, yes!
Eliza Madrigal: juxtaposition, both with images and with the idea of homework/no homework too maybe ... activity/stillness
Maxine Walden: explorations of presence perhaps, each report, each of us here now

Pema Pera: Would anybody like to comment on the email exchange we've had this last week?
Pema Pera: about the role of science and other aspects?

Bleu Oleander: I'm curious about your word "suchness" .... is that timeless time?

Pema Pera: "suchness" is a term used in Buddhism, and I like the way it is not a technical sanskrit term, but constructed from an everday word "such"
Pema Pera: It is not the same as timeless time, but it is similarly beyond ordinary concepts
Pema Pera: "as it is"
Pema Pera: not as we label it
Pema Pera: or use it
Bleu Oleander: how does it relate to timeless time?
Vector Marksman: does it refer to beign?
Pema Pera: timeless time could be seen as a dynamic aspect of Being, whereas suchness has more of a space flavor, very roughly expressed
Vector Marksman: being

--BELL--

Maxine Walden: I was wondering whether one aspect of that exchange involves our various understandings, perspectives perhaps on such concepts as 'science'; the tension which can arise when slightly different understandings of the same term occur. Also different assumptions...
Maxine Walden: an obvious point, but one which seems to recur when potentially new paradigms are at hand

Bleu Oleander: I was wondering the same Maxine
Maxine Walden: :)
Pema Pera: I think it is important to realize that what we're doing goes way beyond what science is currently trying to do -- it would lead to significant confusion if that is not recognized, in my opinion
Bleu Oleander: I think science is trying to understand our world and so are we
Pema Pera: like trying to look for a lost key by staring at a painting of a lamp post . . .
Eliza Madrigal: so perhaps it is a matter of acknowledging the, in some way 'worshipful' aspect of science... of intention there...
Pema Pera: ultimately, yes, Bleu, but trying based on very different perspectives
Maxine Walden: yes, but perhaps in order to be able to appreciate the 'beyond..' one scrambles with various assumptions, ways of knowing perhaps...
Pema Pera: yes, but all this talk about measuring brain waves in the hope of finding better ways to meditate . . .
Bleu Oleander: many perspectives are necessary I think .... big project :)
Pema Pera: that I think is premature to a high degree
Maxine Walden: trying one's footing re the familiar
Maxine Walden: before daring to step into the unfamiliar
Pema Pera: yes, but that can easily become a distraction too
Eliza Madrigal: the boundary maxine... portal as in your report? ... lovely, btw
Bleu Oleander: I don't think we need to separate science from what we are doing if what we are doing is exploring our world and our place in it
Maxine Walden: ah, ty, Eliza

Riddle Sideways: taking the leap... even harder when 'grounded' in some discipiline

Darren Islar: the appraoch seems to be very different though
Pema Pera: I love science, and I'm not trying to separate anything at all -- let's say that I don't think we can understand true love by studying the way the heart pumps blood -- there is just a huge gap between the two

Eliza Madrigal nods @ darren.. the view
Maxine Walden: these various 'assumptions' or perspectives may also express our anxiety about stepping into the unknown...
Pema Pera: yes, Riddle!
Bleu Oleander: by studying the emotions though we can add to the understanding of true love
Pema Pera: but I'm glad that science studies the heart, for sure!
Pema Pera: yes, Bleu, that is a good start, and then the challenge is to go beyond a picture of a self owning the emotions
Maxine Walden: could it be that our clinging to science is as a security re this (for many of us) new paradigm?
Pema Pera: beyond a picture of a self defined by the usual picture of body and mind
Pema Pera: absolutely, Maxine
Pema Pera: daring to let emotions play through us, without any footholding, without any picture of what we are

Vector Marksman: one needs some grounding or any kind of fantasy will do
Maxine Walden: yes, agree, Pema and Vector
Darren Islar nods to Vector
Pema Pera: yes, Vector, I'm not sure I would call that "grounding", but when used in that way it does not necessarily mean support in any firxed way, perhaps more inspiration
Bleu Oleander: say more Vector
Vector Marksman: there is a "sprit of science" that has been very successful
Vector Marksman: and I think it has appleication to other areas of life, reality

Maxine Walden: for most of us, to step beyond what we 'know' or are familiar with triggers at first a kind of terror of falling into the unknown which we reflexively resist by scrambling toward familiar concepts, perspectives
 

Vector Marksman: spirit. honesty, experience based, skepticism, peer review, not bowing to authority etc
Eliza Madrigal: fantasy is often a judgement too... one person's belief can be another's fantasy... even when there are theories and experience to support...
Pema Pera: I fully agree, Vector

Bruce Mowbray: Can the "subjective approach" (observing one's own mind in process) be an objective ["scientific"] activity?

Darren Islar nods to Maxine
Vector Marksman: your right - fantasy is a judgement... a perjorative
Maxine Walden: for me, Bruce, yes!
Bruce Mowbray: I feel that it can - and must be . . . Self-monitoring and self-modifying.
Riddle Sideways: yes, Eliza
Bleu Oleander: agree Bruce
Maxine Walden: interesting: for me fantasy is a creative activity deployed from the unconscious...has nothing to do with judgment; maybe an example of our differing perspectives...
Darren Islar disagrees with Bruce
Bleu Oleander: one can have a conscious fantasy

--BELL--
 

Bruce Mowbray: One can surely be aware that she/he is fantasizing. Awareness of awareness.
Fefonz Quan: (whispers hi to all)

Maxine Walden: hmm, yes, but for me the uncoonscious influences everything in my consciousness/awareness/ thinking...it is disturbing to envision being influenced by the 'unknown' all the time...

Darren Islar: (waves to Fonz)
Bleu Oleander: agree Maxine
Eliza Madrigal: yes, I was mostly referring to labels ... which might close down listening ...
Bleu Oleander: hi Fef
Eliza Madrigal: Hello Fef :)
Pema Pera: hi Fef!

Vector Marksman: there is tension between openness and being critical that science seems to have resoloved or at least worked out
Riddle Sideways: yes, vector that part of science understanding is great
Pema Pera: yes, Vector, the peer review method is what I think we are trying to apply here too!
Pema Pera: keeping each other honest
Pema Pera: comparing notes without authority past or present
Vector Marksman: but then "science" becomes authority and a bully
Vector Marksman: saying what is real and what is not
Vector Marksman: the thought police
Pema Pera: does it?

Maxine Walden: for me this notion of the portal to/from the unconscious where Being resides...think it may differ from Pema's view, but may be another way to access timeless Time, Being, the unfamiliar Reality we can only glimpse at times

Fefonz Quan ain't sure science does all that Vector
Bleu Oleander: I wouldn't characterize science like that
Bruce Mowbray: It seems to me that all of our explorations (in the Time Group) are based in a working hypothesis that internal observations are possible -- and "scientifically" valid.
Pema Pera: every silver cloud has its dark lining perhaps, science included (called "scientism")

Eliza Madrigal: I think I hear Vector as saying that it is easy to replace one voice of authority for another...
Vector Marksman: the shadow
Pema Pera: yes, we all have the tendency to become lazy and invoke authority . . .
Fefonz Quan: not just easy, but also tempting Eliza, authority can seem so comforting sometimes
Eliza Madrigal: one more 'acceptable' or 'respectable' but we can use as prop for same reasoning.. yes
Pema Pera: perhaps the observations are not "internal", Bruce . . .
Bruce Mowbray: but we can WATCH ourselves being lazy and invoking authority -- witness our minds doing that.
Eliza Madrigal: yes!
Vector Marksman: agree
Bruce Mowbray: How do you mean, Pema?
Bleu Oleander: how are the observation not "internal"?
Eliza Madrigal: which was this week's exercize ... learning to watch?
Bruce Mowbray: "not internal"?
Pema Pera: no, not "subjective" not "in the head" or whatever
Pema Pera: just seeing what is is not internal
Pema Pera: it can be rising about the subject/object split
Bleu Oleander: seeing is internal
Pema Pera: how do you know, Bleu?
Fefonz Quan: yes, "internal" just draws a line or boundary soemwhere in the field of perception\
Riddle Sideways: perhaps
Pema Pera: and what does "internal" mean in that case?
Pema Pera: internal within what?
Bleu Oleander: how do we know otherwise?

Maxine Walden: Are we once again getting tangled in terms...are we anxious about just being in the unknown right now?

Pema Pera: seriously, internal within what?
Darren Islar: the exploring field is bigger then 'internal'?
Bleu Oleander: within our minds
Fefonz Quan: I would say so Darren

Pema Pera: no, Maxine, I think we shortchange ourselves by considering our own exploration to be inferior somehow to "objective" approaches by calling it "internal" like "introspection"

Riddle Sideways: yes, maxine tangled in terms
Pema Pera: what is outside your mind, Bleu?
Bruce Mowbray: By "internal" I mean "choosing to direct attention to what my mind is doing as it engages appearances."

Maxine Walden: each of us may approach this conversation, these exercises from a slightly different view, assumptions...and maybe that just needs to be OK

Bleu Oleander: not like introspection
Pema Pera: yes, Maxine, certainly -- but also interesting to compare the approaches
Maxine Walden: that we can then step together into the unknown/new from our own familiar places, but not have to agree on these familiarities

Fefonz Quan: Personally, i find it difficult to pin-point 'my mind' within the appearances
Fefonz Quan: for example: 'here, there is a thought', is some observation of appearance, saying that 'it's the result of my mind' is an assumption

Bleu Oleander: strimulation through the senses, observation interpreted by the mind
Fefonz Quan: or a definition of boundaries
Pema Pera: the way I understand it, there is awareness, and within awareness there arise concepts like mind and body, inner and outer, matter and mind, etc -- and awareness is beyond all those distinctions, so trying to call that "internal" is downshifting the notion of awareness enormously, radically so, and will probably prevent the exploration to work in a really open way

Eliza Madrigal: interesting Maxine, yes and allow that to work itself out while sharing along the way ...
Vector Marksman: we have learned to split things up- iner/ outer...etc.
Bruce Mowbray: A word that Pema has used frequently in his book is "shift" --- The "shifts" that my mind makes are observable -- That's what I mean by "internal awareness."
Darren Islar: /nods to Pema

Bleu Oleander: so you are saying awareness precedes mind, unconscious or conscious?

Maxine Walden: yes, Eliza
Pema Pera: yes, Bruce, but do you feel that the label you use is value neutral, that it may not subtly influence how you judge your exploration and take further steps?

--BELL--

Pema Pera: yes, Bleu

Riddle Sideways: yes, all, inner/outer belong to another plain from most of the awareness exercise
Bleu Oleander: being seeing? being being aware?
Pema Pera: yes
Bruce Mowbray: I feel that the observing mind can be trained to be value-neutral - - - and that this is one of the purposes of intentional contemplation.
Pema Pera: but is it still your mind, Bruce?
Pema Pera: and if not, can you still call in mind?
Riddle Sideways: who cares
Bruce Mowbray: I'm not sure thatr it IS "my" mind.
Pema Pera: rather than "what happens" or "arises"?
Bruce Mowbray: not sure at all.
Maxine Walden: Pema, I think we all are trying very hard to follow your guidance as in the chapters of the book. It just may be difficult to give up long-held views while following that guidance...and maybe it is OK to hold those familiar views and still follow as best we can. There may be several paths toward the goal you are guiding us to
Pema Pera: I care, Riddle, because I know that calling something in too small a way tends to close off wider insights
Bruce Mowbray: "what arises" seems closer to what I'm driving at --- but I can train myself to become aware of what arises.
Vector Marksman: at some point it feels as if "my" drops and there is only mind
Pema Pera: I fully agree, Maxine
Maxine Walden: :)

Pema Pera: but at the same time, when asked a question, I also want to be honest about my own views :)
Bleu Oleander: appreciate that
Pema Pera: trusting that you'll all test and look for yourselves!
Pema Pera: and my understanding is evolving too
Bleu Oleander: appreciate that it's just your view, one of many possible views?

Maxine Walden: of course, Pema. And maybe we can appreciate that, and not respond as if you are being 'the' authority but speaking from your own authentic view

Pema Pera: oh sure, views are just shadows -- one candle can produce so many views !
Bruce Mowbray: Regardless of what the appearances might seem, there "I" am observing their presence and appreciating that.
Pema Pera: yes, Maxine!
Pema Pera: not necessarily, Bruce
Bruce Mowbray listens intently.
Pema Pera: when you let the "I" be seen, you may find that "something" (you??? not-you???) is watching the "I"
Pema Pera: but words are almost impossible to describe this . . .
Pema Pera: as Vector alluded too
Bleu Oleander: the "I" is watching the "I"
Darren Islar: adn then, who is watching then?
Eliza Madrigal: rest is like being 'i' let off the hook of being attentive...?
Pema Pera: perhaps watching is watching . . . .
Eliza Madrigal: "i" being rather than being "i"...
Darren Islar: ..... is watching..... going endlesly
Fefonz Quan is reminded of "which witch watch which watch?" :))
Pema Pera: :-)
Bleu Oleander: turtles all the way down :)
Riddle Sideways: :)
Maxine Walden: :) Fef
Maxine Walden: a tongue twister, mind twister
Bruce Mowbray: J.D. Salinger (in his novel Franny and Zooey): "God pours God into God."
Darren Islar: :)
Maxine Walden: :)
Pema Pera: nice, Bruce!
Fefonz Quan: I think maybe there is another way to present the dificulty here: when a baby is looking at the world, his hand are no different than his mothers hands
Bruce Mowbray: (Salinger's description of a child drinking her milk: god pouring god into god."
Riddle Sideways: did not mean "who cares" as outburst. Meant when watching presence, awareness, appearance am not so interested in who/what/where is watching (gloss that over)
Fefonz Quan: it takes time for him to "build" the notion of "my" hand and others outside. hence the appearance itself seems like preceding the identification model
Bleu Oleander: babies brain is not yet developed at that point
Pema Pera: thanks, Riddle!
Eliza Madrigal nods @ riddle.. thank you :)
Vector Marksman: this timeless time moves one into wholeness, unitiy, less sense of division, distinction
Riddle Sideways: yes
Vector Marksman: less me and you
Bleu Oleander: a way of thinking, more open inclusive?
Darren Islar: maybe babies are not yet fully reincarnated, which means living in a materialized world
Fefonz Quan: Yet i feel to that all the turtles still converge to some central pont of view, which is different for any of us
Bruce Mowbray: agrees totally with Vector on that.
Darren Islar: *incarneated
Fefonz Quan: too*
Bruce Mowbray: so, for me, awareness becomes aware of awareness -- when there is intention to be attentive to that.
Pema Pera: hi Bert!
Vector Marksman: To have less of a familiar identity is scary too
Pema Pera: nicely put, Bruce!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bert :)
Maxine Walden: yes, Vector
Bertram Jacobus: hi all ! don´t want to interrupt (but didn´t know that a meeting was / is here now) :-)
Pema Pera: oh, it'd better be really scary, otherwise it ain't real, Vector!
Pema Pera: hi Alfred
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bert, it is time session and now leading into our regular Friday PaB session :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Alfred too :)
Bruce Mowbray: TY -- also, for me, such awareness is far "safer" and 'ess "scary" than all of the identities that need protections and service.
Vector Marksman: yes... that is a barrier to making it real
Pema Pera: well, I'll have to get some sleep, have to catch an early train in another seven hours or so
Bertram Jacobus: okay ... i see ... ty eliza
Pema Pera: wonderful to talk with you all here, and see you next week!
Eliza Madrigal: Thank you Pema
Bruce Mowbray: Thank you, Pema. Be well.
Riddle Sideways: At the beel the time will not be the time
Pema Pera: thanks for taking the log, Eliza
Vector Marksman: thanks
Bleu Oleander: bye and ty Pema:)
Alfred Kelberry: *feels that he's late*
Darren Islar: I'll be leaving too
Eliza Madrigal: and everyone for a very stimulating coversation
Maxine Walden: yes, I have to go too. Great conversation.
Darren Islar: thansk Pema and everyone :)
Almond Andel: By, pema.
Almond Andel: Very interesting
Bertram Jacobus: me too alfred ;-) ("late") ;-)
Eliza Madrigal: feel free to linger in the boundary while the next session opens...
Bleu Oleander: bye everyone who's leaving
Pema Pera: and let me emphasize again that I appreciate all angles, even while trying to clarify my own ones :-)
Almond Andel: (Hi Alf!)
--BELL--
Fefonz Quan: Bye Pema!
Riddle Sideways: bye maxine, pema, darren, vector
Alfred Kelberry: um, did i miss something?
Eliza Madrigal: Alf :) Remember... early Time Sessions on Fridays
Eliza Madrigal: But you're in time for the regular session :)
Alfred Kelberry: belated happy birthday to you, pema :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hosted by Moi
Alfred Kelberry: oh yes... thank you, eliza
Alfred Kelberry: good to see you, almond :)
Eliza Madrigal: Bye ALmond :)
Riddle Sideways: bye Almond