The Guardian for this meeting was Maxine Walden. The comments are by Maxine Walden.

This lengthy session, about two hours, began with considerations about the Stuttgart retreat but soon turned to considerations about the I Ching, primarily between Calvino, Arabella and Morgano. A couple of other brief mentions were made, but the topic gravitated back to this topic. It is a very interesting session, for those who know little about the I Ching  (such as I) as well perhaps as those more versed in it.  I have edited some of the intros.

Yakuzza Lethecus: hey maxine
Maxine Walden: hi, Yaku
Maxine Walden: quiet day it seems right now
Maxine Walden: how are you?
Yakuzza Lethecus: well, i am fine a bit unsure if i have everything for the drive to heidelberg tomorrow
Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
Maxine Walden: ah, yes...:)
Maxine Walden: the retreat?
Yakuzza Lethecus: yes
Yakuzza Lethecus: actually it's by far closer to heidelberg then to stuttgart
Maxine Walden: wonderful! Who all will be there?
--BELL--
Maxine Walden: Pema, you, Wol, Eos...guess I could look it up
Yakuzza Lethecus: bertram, lia
Maxine Walden: oh, yes.
Yakuzza Lethecus: that´s all sadly, i hoped to see more new faces
Maxine Walden: yes, that is sad more could not come...
Maxine Walden: I really hope you have an interesting, nourishing time
Yakuzza Lethecus: actually i try not to think or expect anything :)
Maxine Walden: good idea!
Yakuzza Lethecus: expectation is probably one of the things i try to get rid of :)
Maxine Walden: yes!
Maxine Walden: to just 'be' or play as Being
Yakuzza Lethecus: to just, be" i guess, to just freely reflect and to split happyness and wellbeing apart from external factors
Yakuzza Lethecus: while of course, i do grasp :)
Maxine Walden: hmm ...don't we all
Maxine Walden: hi, Calvino
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey cal
Maxine Walden: hi, Morgano
Yakuzza Lethecus: and hey morgano
morgano Bravin: Hi
Calvino Rabeni: Hello Yaky, Max - morgano too :)
morgano Bravin: how are you all?
Maxine Walden: Morgano, we have access to your voice reality as well as text. Care to turn your mic off?
morgano Bravin: ok
morgano Bravin: is that better?
Yakuzza Lethecus: i am not sure if it´s ,,better" but we don´t hear ur environment anymore :)
morgano Bravin: ty
Maxine Walden: thanks, Morgano. yes, not sure about 'better'
morgano Bravin: its busy here..lots of family
Maxine Walden: but yes reduces a lovely distraction into your family...:)
Maxine Walden: Yaku and I were just musing about the Stuttgart retreat which he goes to tomorrow...
Maxine Walden: going without expectations ...
Yakuzza Lethecus: at least i try, there are always tacid expecations,grasp and hopes i guess
Yakuzza Lethecus: even if it´s simply tho hope for nice serendipity´s :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: some enlightening moments and communications
Maxine Walden: ...part of our being human, Yaku; maybe we discover how human we are at these retreats...
--BELL--
morgano Bravin: I think our humanity comes across well on sl
morgano Bravin: sorry
Maxine Walden: :) Morgano, I was talking during one of he earlier 90 sec as well. Your point, our humanity shining through in SL is so true it seems to me
arabella Ella: Hiya
Maxine Walden: hi, ara!
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi ara :)
morgano Bravin: Hiya Ara
morgano Bravin: nice outfit Ara
Calvino Rabeni: Are you studying I Ching lately, and maybe you've done a reading on the coming retreat?
arabella Ella: thanks morgano
Calvino Rabeni: Hi Ara :)
morgano Bravin: I have been looking at the i ching,,i downloaded something onto my i phone
morgano Bravin: I may attend Pila's session this week
Calvino Rabeni: Those times when there's a change in circumstances seem to be a good time to do a reading ... like going to a retreat, or going on a trip
Calvino Rabeni: Going on a trip is a deep archetype :)
arabella Ella: is it Calvino ...please say more if you cud
morgano Bravin: yes, and the i ching can settle quite alot of anxieties when facing change
Alfred Kelberry: meep-meep! :)
Maxine Walden: hi, alf. welcome
morgano Bravin: Hi alf
Alfred Kelberry: thanks :)
Calvino Rabeni: When people make a decision or face unknown changes, or have an upcoming transition - things are up in the air, there are many influences in different directions to get a feel for and sort out
arabella Ella: Hey Alfie how r u?
Alfred Kelberry: good to see you all
Calvino Rabeni: maybe some risks, things being left behind, new things coming
Alfred Kelberry: i'm good. just fro mthe emergency science circle meeting :)
Calvino Rabeni: confusions, curiousities, fears, hopes are activated
arabella Ella: that is very interesting as a perspective Calvino
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi alf :)
Alfred Kelberry: yaku :)
Alfred Kelberry: spicy qt :)
Qt Core: Hi all
Yakuzza Lethecus: and qt
Calvino Rabeni: And we know the enduring metaphors of journeys
morgano Bravin: I feel the iching acts as a filter in those circumstances
Calvino Rabeni: every story has one, it seems
morgano Bravin: Hi Qt
Calvino Rabeni: things seem more potential then than actual
arabella Ella: Hiya Qt buonasera!
Maxine Walden: we are talking about the I Ching, and change, Alf. Would also like to hear about your meeting, perhaps in a bit
Calvino Rabeni: like small decisions might have a big effect
Maxine Walden: hi, Qt
Alfred Kelberry: oh, thank you, maxine. i was trying to catch up :)
Maxine Walden: :) (I am always trying to catch up, Alf)
arabella Ella: how do you seee the i ching as helping in such circumstances Calvino?
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Calvino Rabeni: Yes I do, because it maps out different perspectives for how the changes may happen
Calvino Rabeni: getting one to consider possibilities
Calvino Rabeni: Even if it loosens or stirs the imagination a little
arabella Ella: but ... do you think we impose our own meaning on the reading since there is the element of chance involved?
arabella Ella: i am just trying to draw out some thoughts if you dont mind
Alfred Kelberry: ara, i think we always do
Calvino Rabeni: All meaning is something we impose and something that's already there - a combination
arabella Ella: mmmm
Calvino Rabeni: so the reading of the I Ching is asking oneself to make just such a combination
morgano Bravin: I myself, believe it shows possible outcomes and reminds the reader that the correct choices are important,,in other words it just provides some contemplation time prior to action
Calvino Rabeni: Yes !
Calvino Rabeni: Contemplation to consider the possibilties in a way that is coherent with what one knows about the world
morgano Bravin: its funny how we jump into things without considering things quite as well as we could have
Calvino Rabeni: True :)
Calvino Rabeni: And so an oracle asks us to do that a bit more
Calvino Rabeni: as an aid to contemplation
--BELL--
morgano Bravin: :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: night everyone
arabella Ella: night Yaku (for the record)
morgano Bravin: nite yaku
Calvino Rabeni: Maybe reality is like the multidimensional situation with huge number of latent possibilities - the reading helps collapse and name it for comprehension -
morgano Bravin: maybe we have an infinite amount of directions and that we have a choice to which dimensional path to follow?
Calvino Rabeni: that makes sense
Maxine Walden: This is a very important topic, the I Ching, the many possibilities...and do not want to cut it short, but also would like to have Alf tell us about the meeting he just went to, which may affect us all in SL, is that correct, Alf?
morgano Bravin: but like with clouds in the sky, even multiple posibilities have patterns they tend to adhere to
arabella Ella: if i may very quickly too ... maybe before alf ...
arabella Ella: tomorrow Noam Chomsky is being interviewed on SL
arabella Ella: at Metanomics
arabella Ella: at 12
arabella Ella: Apologies ... on Tuesday I meant NOT tomorrow
Maxine Walden: ah, thanks, would be great to hear him
arabella Ella: not sure about 12AM or PM I always mix that up
arabella Ella: but would be 8 PM UK time
morgano Bravin: what sort of topic will she talk about Ara?
Maxine Walden: :) OK, maybe we can calculatefrom that.
arabella Ella: i dont yet know but it should be on the metanomics website
morgano Bravin: ty
arabella Ella: Noam Chomsky is well known as a linguist and as an american political activist
Maxine Walden: thanks, ara.
morgano Bravin: didnt she teach Latin?
arabella Ella: ehrm ... it is 'he'
Maxine Walden: Alf, would you like to tell us about the meeting? (I will need to leave soon, but we should get this info in the chatlog, likely)
arabella Ella: he has been active for around 50 years i guess now
arabella Ella: yes please Alf I'm done and apologies!
Maxine Walden: :) no apologies needed!!
Maxine Walden: too many good things to hear...
morgano Bravin: thankfully not from my voice
morgano Bravin: :)
Maxine Walden: :)
arabella Ella: LOL
Maxine Walden: alf?
arabella Ella: allo allo Alfie
Maxine Walden: I think alf is about to tell us about an emergency meeting among some SL folks about the intended cessation of discount for tier for non-profits in SL. Is that close to the mark, Alf?
arabella Ella: seems like Alfie is having a little nap?
Maxine Walden: Oh, dear, I have to go, and was hoping this info could get into the chatlog...I will look for the link and post it of course. Have a ferry to catch...
morgano Bravin: have fun Max
Maxine Walden: Sorry... to have to leave...see you all soon!
Qt Core: bye maxine
morgano Bravin: byeeeee
Maxine Walden: hope alf is able to share...
Calvino Rabeni: Take care, Max, Bye
arabella Ella: we will ask Alfie if he gets back
arabella Ella: bye Maxine
morgano Bravin: maybe Cal can give more insite into the iching?
Calvino Rabeni: There's a wheel on the post behind me
--BELL--
morgano Bravin: what does it do Cal?
Calvino Rabeni: The ancients wanted a map to the possibilities in nature and their world, so they created this as a map
morgano Bravin: ohh?
Calvino Rabeni: The wheel turning represents changes
Calvino Rabeni: things wax and wane, warm and cool in cycles
morgano Bravin: yes, like nature?
Calvino Rabeni: they also looked around and saw basically three levels to reality
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Calvino Rabeni: they were looking to understand nature
Calvino Rabeni: and creating a scientific framework for it
arabella Ella: three levels?
arabella Ella: it is a lovely wheel Calvino
Calvino Rabeni: so they saw three levels - the middle level is where we live as humans
arabella Ella: i like the yin and yang in the middle
morgano Bravin: ok
Calvino Rabeni: and there is an underworld below, and a spirit world above
Calvino Rabeni: so they sorted the observed world into these three layers
Calvino Rabeni: which they called earth, heaven ... and in the middle, human world
arabella Ella: sounds a bit like earth heaven and hell to me
Calvino Rabeni: no hell
Calvino Rabeni: just humans between heaven and earth
arabella Ella: ah
Calvino Rabeni: thus came the trigrams, those three-line diagrams on the wheel
morgano Bravin: yes
Calvino Rabeni: They wanted to apply this to situations - places we find ourselves in
Calvino Rabeni: and noticed that there is an inner aspect and an outer aspect to situations
Calvino Rabeni: like if the inner aspect is personal, the outer aspect is the world around
Calvino Rabeni: so they meant, something like the content and the contexts
Calvino Rabeni: or the obvious, and the surrounding invisible influences
Calvino Rabeni: so they doubled the trigram to make a hexagram
morgano Bravin: mmm I see
Calvino Rabeni: which has a lower one and and upper one
Calvino Rabeni: the lower one represents the immediate
arabella Ella: intruiging
Calvino Rabeni: the upper one represents the surrounding influences and contexts
morgano Bravin: sort of an early quantum mechanic computer?
Calvino Rabeni: then a combination of two trigrams is an I Ching hexagram
Calvino Rabeni: Yes exactly that is a good metaphor
Calvino Rabeni: these are the independent vectors of change at different frequencies
Calvino Rabeni: each line is a different frequency
Calvino Rabeni: the "motion" in the I Ching is thought of as arising from the bottom and rising to the top
Calvino Rabeni: so when the lines are created for a reading, it goes from bottom to top
Calvino Rabeni: Some people think the I Ching is a "binary number" system
Calvino Rabeni: but it isn't really true -
Calvino Rabeni: The changes themselves are continuous
morgano Bravin: on the wheel are eight gua..was that the first ones?
Calvino Rabeni: yes thos are gua
Calvino Rabeni: So if we click on the wheel
Calvino Rabeni: we would get the lower trigram of a reading
Calvino Rabeni: an again for the upper
morgano Bravin: I see
Calvino Rabeni: so we have Fire below, wind above
morgano Bravin: so u dont mix them
morgano Bravin: always the opposites?
Calvino Rabeni: Fire over Wind if we look it up is hexagram 50, ssymbolizing a Cauldron
arabella Ella: ah
Calvino Rabeni: What is your question about the opposites?
arabella Ella: should we ask a question now?
morgano Bravin: oh no,,I stopped it so i guess u can do my reading?
morgano Bravin: I was guessing this is the primary group
Calvino Rabeni: usually one formulates a "question" to prime the mind beforehand
Calvino Rabeni: and then let it sit for a while, to get a feel for it
arabella Ella: ok i have formulated mine
morgano Bravin: and that the sets are coupled with their opposites on the wheel?
Calvino Rabeni: getting a little into not knowing, wondering, surveying the question
arabella Ella nods
Calvino Rabeni: and then one's mind is a little looser to receive the reading
arabella Ella loosens my mind a bit ...
arabella Ella shakes my head ... to loosen ... not joking ...
Calvino Rabeni: It really means, taking a kind of survey of all ones subtler ideas about a whole situation, which are carried in the body as subtle feelings
Calvino Rabeni: and yes sometimes loosening ones body can help that too
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: and letting go of things that are claiming too much attention
Calvino Rabeni: I think morgano was asking about the structure of the gua?
morgano Bravin: yes
Calvino Rabeni: on this wheel it is precisely arranged you probably noticed
Qt Core: sleeptime, bye all
morgano Bravin: just in respect of the wheel
morgano Bravin: nite Qt
Calvino Rabeni: that each diagram / gua faces its complement across the diameter of the wheel
morgano Bravin: sleep tite
Calvino Rabeni: ByeQT :)
morgano Bravin: yes
Calvino Rabeni: So each one is an inverse of the one it's balanced across form
morgano Bravin: so i was thinking this must be just the primary gua
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, this is called the Earlier Heaven Bagua
morgano Bravin: presumably they thought the primary were sufficient at one time
Calvino Rabeni: It shows the rising and falling of a complete cycle of energy, which repeats
morgano Bravin: do you think they were right to increase them?
morgano Bravin: what is it now? 64?
Calvino Rabeni: one trigram is 8 states, 2 trigrams is 64 states
Calvino Rabeni: or rather combination of 8 states for an inner and and outer aspect of a situation
morgano Bravin: I wonder whether its still possible to read succesfully just using the primary?
Calvino Rabeni: There is also a web of influences or meanings operating between the two trigrams
Calvino Rabeni: Yes I would say so
Calvino Rabeni: it is like measuring things
Calvino Rabeni: you can measure as many things as you want
Calvino Rabeni: or like a coordinate system
Calvino Rabeni: you use one to see how long a line is
Calvino Rabeni: two to see how big an area is
Calvino Rabeni: three to measure volume, etc.
Calvino Rabeni: so asking whether there should be one or two or more gua is a little like asking how many coordinate axes there ought to really be
morgano Bravin: mmm not sure I understand that bit Cal
arabella Ella: do you mean like going into stuff more in detail, more specifics?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Calvino Rabeni: an application of the "basic idea"
arabella Ella: so could we try to have the reading of the hexagram that emerged tonight please Cal?
Calvino Rabeni: independent of the "historical form" of the book known as the I Ching
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Calvino Rabeni: However ... there's also the issue of poetry
Calvino Rabeni: If the "map" is too complicated, it doesn't make good poetry
arabella Ella nods
Calvino Rabeni: so maps are always simplified compared to reality
arabella Ella: yet simplified maps can still retain an element of complexity but portrayed in a simple way
Calvino Rabeni: thus they needed something more complicated than a trigram, but three would have just been unmanagable
Calvino Rabeni: right
Calvino Rabeni: The wheel here does not give a full reading though
arabella Ella: but you said the no 50 emerged?
Calvino Rabeni: because traditionally the readings give the ability for the lines themselves to be dynamic
morgano Bravin: this was what i was wondering?
arabella Ella: yes we could say 50 with no moving lines today
Calvino Rabeni: Right, it gives the Cauldron, with no moving lines
arabella Ella nods
Calvino Rabeni: The lower one is called Wind, but also sometimes Wood
Calvino Rabeni: something like a plant or a tree
arabella Ella: oh
Calvino Rabeni: it has two solid lines and the bottom one is broken
Calvino Rabeni: reminiscent of the way a tree has roots that divide and penetrate into the earth
arabella Ella: mmmm
Calvino Rabeni: but above is the solid part of the tree, the visible part
arabella Ella: and do you have the text for it Cal?
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: just a second :)
Calvino Rabeni: http://deoxy.org/iching/50
Calvino Rabeni: In reading these descriptions, they will define the meaning in very specific terms
arabella Ella: oh i cannot open oher windows with this viewer cal
Calvino Rabeni: however the diagram itself has a more abstract meaning that could apply to any situation
arabella Ella: *other
Calvino Rabeni: such as your own situation, the one that was hidden inside the "question" asked before the reading
Calvino Rabeni: OK ara :)
Calvino Rabeni: Remember the texts are the result of comtemplation of the basic image shown by the diagram
Calvino Rabeni: they can't be regarded as authoritative
Calvino Rabeni: so to one view it might have been about a religious offering,
Calvino Rabeni: or about the proper way for their society to work
Calvino Rabeni: etc. that
Calvino Rabeni: s not the meaning of the hexagram
Calvino Rabeni: just an application of it in a particular culture and value system
Calvino Rabeni: so in learning the I Ching one of the efforts is to try to "read through" that
Calvino Rabeni: and the best way is to see how it applies to ones own situations
arabella Ella: intuitively you mean?
morgano Bravin: I seem to have my knickers in a twist over something
Calvino Rabeni: Maybe, intuitively or analytically or any combination
arabella Ella nods
Calvino Rabeni: Hmm Morgano, ?
morgano Bravin: the wheel doesnt just have the primary gua
Calvino Rabeni: Well I read there briefly lots of interpretations of 50
Calvino Rabeni: for example,
arabella Ella giggles at morgano's english expressions
Calvino Rabeni: Overview: Ting is very much concerned with the provision of necessities for a community to exist harmoniously. Unlike Ching, which deals with the basics, Ting is about the "extras". The sharing of a well-prepared meal is a ritual throughout the world for cultivation the bonds between people. As well as providing for the body Ting reminds you that the spiritual "extras" should not be overlooked.
morgano Bravin: mmmmm
Calvino Rabeni: What do you mean by primary gua, morgano?
arabella Ella: that is really deep
arabella Ella: Calvino's text i mean
Calvino Rabeni: I got that from the web a http://www.psychic-revelation.com/reference/i_l/i_ching/hexagram50.html
arabella Ella: wow amazing
morgano Bravin: well,,at first there were only a few gua
Calvino Rabeni: the i ching is very popular, there are lots of interpretations
Calvino Rabeni: none is correct
Calvino Rabeni: or all of them are
Calvino Rabeni: It can be approached more analytically or more intuitively
Calvino Rabeni: but it is not like reading a book with precise descriptions
Calvino Rabeni: more like looking for general patterns
Calvino Rabeni: and a lot of them are natural
Calvino Rabeni: meaning, things that nature likes to do
Calvino Rabeni: very obvious things like, water collects in low places, but evaporates eventually
Calvino Rabeni: the origins of the system were based on obsevation of the the natural world and its phenomena
morgano Bravin: yea
Calvino Rabeni: using those observations as metaphors for human phenomena
Calvino Rabeni: I'm still not sure about your question, Morgano?
--BELL--
morgano Bravin: I find it more comforting when I find that so many intelligent people trust in the iching,,it gives me some confidence that perhaps there is something to be gleaned from it
Calvino Rabeni: It is basically a map for organizing peoples thinking into the general phenomena of the world, in a systematic way - like saying, remember to consider a variety of layers and influences and structures to what is happening
Calvino Rabeni: It's like a more complex version (much more) of saying "look at the other side of the coin"
arabella Ella: ah
morgano Bravin: perhaps bringing order from chaos?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, or seeing the order that is inside chaos
Calvino Rabeni: Like when meditating in nature
Calvino Rabeni: at first it doesn't make any sense
Calvino Rabeni: and then more and more "emerges"
morgano Bravin: as with any computer,,it isnt intelligent,,but it munches through masses of imput,,maybe this is similar to the iching
Calvino Rabeni: An organizational scheme - an index or access language
Calvino Rabeni: The I Ching is the "book of changes"
Calvino Rabeni: the diagrams are referencing the world
arabella Ella: aa very clever one though based on lots of reflection and dedication
morgano Bravin: codex? whats that?
Calvino Rabeni: I don't know what codex means
Calvino Rabeni: embedded in the diagram are the four "elements"
morgano Bravin: sounds good
Calvino Rabeni: which really represent states of matter/energy
Calvino Rabeni: at the bottom is earth, at the top air, at the left, fire, at the right, water
arabella Ella: and is there not a mountain too in th e i ching?
Calvino Rabeni: those were not physicall matter elements, but states of organization of the behavior of matter
arabella Ella: mountains and fires?
Calvino Rabeni: the mountain is between water and earth
morgano Bravin: has it ever been said that water is associated with life,,in iching circles?
Calvino Rabeni: I'm not sure if that wheel looks the same to everyone here
morgano Bravin: even representing the animal kingdom including humanity?
Calvino Rabeni: but now it is in its canonical position, with earth at the bottom
arabella Ella: in what way Cal are you asking whether it looks the same?
Calvino Rabeni: I turned the wheel to give the diagram its standard position
arabella Ella: ok yes i see
arabella Ella: three broken lines at the bottom
arabella Ella: three unbroken lines at the top
Calvino Rabeni: the order of rotation is sequencing clockwise
morgano Bravin: mmm yes
Calvino Rabeni: yes
morgano Bravin: i see that
arabella Ella: i think i still would very much like to know how No. 50 relates to my question
Calvino Rabeni: so there's earth, then next is thunder - then fire, then lake, then heaven, then wind, then water, then mountain, then earth again
arabella Ella: (my private question of course)
arabella Ella: clockwise?
Calvino Rabeni: yes clockwise ordering of the sequence of trigrams
Calvino Rabeni: in that diagram
morgano Bravin: can u repeat the question Ara?
arabella Ella: i asked Calvino whether his statement concerning earth, etc, explaining the triagrams took them as being clockwise
arabella Ella: and he said yes
morgano Bravin: sorry, i meant re 50?
Calvino Rabeni: I said they sequence clockwise in this wheel diagram
arabella Ella: oh about no. 50
arabella Ella: i asked
arabella Ella: whether there could be more detail (am re-phrasing now)
arabella Ella: so i could perhaps relate No. 50 more to my initial question
Calvino Rabeni: I'm sorry, I'll have to go in about 5 minutes ...
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: go on though?
arabella Ella: oh
morgano Bravin: 50,,is establishing the new..supreme good fortune,,prosperous and smoothe,,maybe even,,the superior person rectifying his position
arabella Ella: ah very appropriate for my question
arabella Ella: thanks morgano :)
morgano Bravin: my pleasure
morgano Bravin: :)
arabella Ella: i guess i must go get some sleep too soon
arabella Ella: as it is very late here now
Calvino Rabeni: Well, it means, as I see it, recognizing where one's values come from in the earth, and then "cooking" or preparing them - meaning one's internal process of holding things and giving them importance, and then releasing that to the world as "nourishment" ... it is a very giving metaphor, and very social
morgano Bravin: could be rectifying her position,,i know you are sensitive to this
arabella Ella: but thank you so much Calvino this has been interesting and so unexpected
morgano Bravin: :)
morgano Bravin: thanks Cal,,very interesting tonite
Calvino Rabeni: YW Ara and Morgano - thanks
Calvino Rabeni: Good fortune :)
Calvino Rabeni: take care, bye :))
morgano Bravin: yeaaaa
arabella Ella: good fortune to you too TC
morgano Bravin: bye Cal
arabella Ella: and thanks again :)
arabella Ella: bye morgano gtg now too
arabella Ella: and thanks for your precious input too :)
morgano Bravin: bye bye ara,,take care
morgano Bravin: :)