The Guardian for this meeting was Maxine Walden. The comments are by Maxine Walden.

Maxine Walden: hi, Barcalona
Barcalona Rhapsody: hi max
Barcalona Rhapsody: most ppl are at the art exhibition
Maxine Walden: ah, yes.
Maxine Walden: hi,Wol Euler: hello maxine, barca
Wol Euler: oh, you're right, there is a crowd at the art place
Maxine Walden: ah, maybe the area of interest at the moment, the art
Maxine Walden: so many things going on!
Wol Euler: they must be running overtime
Barcalona Rhapsody: but they talked about time
Wol Euler: hello yaku
Maxine Walden: losing track of time is easy in SL, at least for me
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
Barcalona Rhapsody: that u can make your own time
Eliza Madrigal: Barcelonaya sounds like one word...
Eliza Madrigal: ::chomp::::
Bruce Mowbray: Oh! I'm sorry! I'm in a sorts bar and the connection is weird....
Bruce Mowbray: sports*
Maxine Walden: :) Bruce
Aphrodite Macbain: what's a sorts bar
Eliza Madrigal: not at all... we must have clicked at the same moment ... me an instant before...
Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
Wol Euler: hello bleu
Aphrodite Macbain: Bruce - you missed a good discussion on the art work
Eliza Madrigal: Very nice, yes :))
Wol Euler just got in from work, sadly
Aphrodite Macbain: Better than any docent tour I've been on
Maxine Walden: yes, sorry I had to miss it too
Bruce Mowbray: Really? --- Oh yes, I was at Quaker Meeting this afternoon and couldn't attend that.
Aphrodite Macbain: Some amazing stuff there
Bleu Oleander: there will be more :)
Aphrodite Macbain: worth a visit
Wol Euler: noted :)
Barcalona Rhapsody: sure
Bleu Oleander: follow some of the landmarks
Maxine Walden: ah...thanks so, Bleu and yes, noted for me as well
Aphrodite Macbain: That was the RL Quakers meeting wasn't it Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, RL -- in Circleville, Ohio.
Eliza Madrigal: (lag... typed that ages ago)
Bleu Oleander: noticed the lag too
Maxine Walden: hi, Arabella, nice to see you
Barcalona Rhapsody: hi ara
arabella Ella: nice to see all of you too!
arabella Ella waves back to Bruce
Aphrodite Macbain is thinking how much she loves the term verbalicious
Wol Euler grins
Maxine Walden: delicious sounding, verbalicious
Aphrodite Macbain: There's a little being wandering around near the cushions
Maxine Walden: oh?
Aphrodite Macbain: Oh I think it's blub
arabella Ella: is the being visible to all of us as i cant see anything
Maxine Walden: ah!! :)
--BELL--
Aphrodite Macbain: no it's only blub
Bruce Mowbray: Well, Blub is a little being - but his wandering is quite restricted.
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes, like Misty. Round and round and round
arabella Ella: he is very faithful isnt he
Aphrodite Macbain: He knows where his fish food is
Maxine Walden: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen :) Again
Eliza Madrigal: Its zen again...naturally...
Maxine Walden: any PaB discussion items?
Zen Arado: in a little while from now....
Mickorod Renard: Hiya
Bleu Oleander: (bye all ... rl challenge)
Eliza Madrigal: wow, almost full circle... quick grab someone
Eliza Madrigal: Ah
Maxine Walden: thanks for coming Bleu
Eliza Madrigal: Okay... two people...
Wol Euler: *bleu
Maxine Walden: :))
Bruce Mowbray: What will happen in a little while from now, Mick?
Zen Arado: it was a silly song Eliza reminded me of
Maxine Walden: hi, Eos
Bruce Mowbray: sorry -- I mean that directed to Zen.
Eos Amaterasu: hi gang
Mickorod Renard: erm,,Ara will log on again
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Eos.
Eliza Madrigal: what a surprise
Wol Euler: :)
Wol Euler: eos, where are you today?
Zen Arado: 'Alone again naturally ....
Mickorod Renard: hi eos
Zen Arado: Hi Eos
Eos Amaterasu: I'm in Berlin
Wol Euler: wow
Maxine Walden: ah!!
Eos Amaterasu: ich bin ein virtuale Berliner
Wol Euler: wb ara
Maxine Walden: :))
Wol Euler grins
Mickorod Renard: :)
Zen Arado: :)
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Yakuzza Lethecus: will you stay in germany until the retreat is going to happen ?
Eliza Madrigal: We missed your telling us about your puzzling picture for the exhibit eos...
arabella Ella: ty ... awww crashed
Eos Amaterasu: no, will return there though for the RL retreat by way of Amsterdam, Paris, and San Sebastian (the long way around)
Wol Euler: O.O
Maxine Walden: :)
Wol Euler: that is indeed the long way
Eos Amaterasu: You mean you were puzzled by Baby Eos?
Eliza Madrigal: quite!
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Wol Euler: that#s like going from New York to Washington via Chicago
Barcalona Rhapsody: well folks i have to go
Barcalona Rhapsody: bye all
Eos Amaterasu: Sorry I missed the Being Puzzled session
Eliza Madrigal: It was great, and we missed you... but we can paste your comments :)
Aphrodite Macbain: hi ara
arabella Ella: hiya again
Eos Amaterasu: a baby is the very embodiment of fresh being puzzled, neh?
Aphrodite Macbain: :-) or being totally accepting of what is
Eos Amaterasu: plus I couldn't resist the lock of hair :-)
Bruce Mowbray thinks "Noob mind Beginner's Mind."
Eliza Madrigal: freshly puzzled, very nice
Zen Arado: the world must be a puzzling place when you are just born
Wol Euler nods.
Aphrodite Macbain: I wonder
Eos Amaterasu: yeah, in my first baby picture I look worried and a bit paranoid
Wol Euler: :)
Maxine Walden: agree, from 'inside' to 'outside' ...rather suddenly in most cases
Eliza Madrigal: thankfully you can't see much of it... just a hand's distance?
Aphrodite Macbain: being puzzled means nothing quitee makes sense
Eliza Madrigal: mmm, nods Maxine!
Mickorod Renard: innocence negates puzzlement
Eos Amaterasu: thinking out of the womb
Maxine Walden: :) Eos
Eliza Madrigal: hahah
Aphrodite Macbain: but since a babe is innocent of knowldge - there is no need to make sense of anything it experiences\
Zen Arado: yes Mick - we aren't puzzle until we start to think? Just experiencing all the sensations
Aphrodite Macbain: it just feels
Zen Arado: puzzled*
Aphrodite Macbain: preeeecisely
--BELL--
Eliza Madrigal apologizes for leaving early but must give up the computer to son and homework ... (Hi Steve)
Wol Euler: wwwwwww
Wol Euler: +a
arabella Ella: bye Eliza hiys steve
Maxine Walden: hi, steve, bye eliza
Eliza Madrigal: bye for now :) hugs
Mickorod Renard: Hi Steve
Mickorod Renard: bye eliza
Zen Arado: loves hugs :)
Zen Arado: like a baby
Maxine Walden: :)) Zen
arabella Ella: meeee tooo!
Maxine Walden: :)) ara
Maxine Walden: Guess we all love hugs
arabella Ella: aren't we all babes at heart
Maxine Walden: indeed ara!
Zen Arado: we have to become as a little child - Jesus said
arabella Ella nods
Zen Arado: have the innocence of a child I think he meant
Zen Arado: the freshness
Zen Arado: openness
arabella Ella: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: I must go to my yoga class now. Bye all
Bruce Mowbray: enthusiasm/amazement
Eos Amaterasu: Ciao, Aph
Zen Arado: bye Aphro - have a good class
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Aphrodite Macbain: grazie tutti!
Bruce Mowbray: de nada!
arabella Ella: (italian is 'prego')
Bruce Mowbray thinks that 'innocence' is more of a mental construct than an actual state of being.
Zen Arado: more like a lack of mental constructs?
arabella Ella: but that raises a question for me
Zen Arado: or making them too quickly?
Wol Euler: hello gaya
Zen Arado: Hi Gaya
Mickorod Renard: I get the feeling that when you become the child again it is another layer, you dont loose the old self but have another set of eyes to see extra perceptions
arabella Ella: why is it that kids aged around 8 or so get to be attracted to violence on TV, games, etc.?
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Gaya.
Zen Arado: the old perceptions block seeing maybe
Mickorod Renard: without the key yes Zen
Zen Arado: maybe we are conditioned by the media that way Ara?
Mickorod Renard: :)
Wol Euler: so it's about learning to read?
arabella Ella: i dunno i find violence repulsive
Zen Arado: wonders if it is natural
Eos Amaterasu: William Blake had some wise poesy about innocence and experience
Bruce Mowbray: yeah, Zena nd Mick. . . the oldhabituated reactive patterns
arabella Ella: but kids seem to be so fascinated to it from a young age ... even in kids movies for example
Bruce Mowbray: Blub loves Wm. Blake.
Eos Amaterasu: innocence can be turned into a maintained outlook and one can fear to let that og
Eos Amaterasu: go
Maxine Walden: there may also be some evolutionary trigger ra aggression about that age, when our ancestors began to teach the kids to hunt, etc...
Eos Amaterasu: experience is necessary
arabella Ella: it may also be visible in the way kids may tend to bully each other at that age
Zen Arado: but the young of species only play at violence to prepare for real hunting later on?
Eos Amaterasu: testing each other, probing
Maxine Walden: about that age, perhaps 'being big' which may involve making others feel small comes into view
Bruce Mowbray: Like cat babies, Zen?
arabella Ella: could it be that the media 'feed' on that 'instinct' and it ends up becomming a vicious circle?
Mickorod Renard: I am sure they are testing the ground too, they will hold onto ground made
Zen Arado: yesp
Zen Arado: kittens
Zen Arado: hmm..maybe Ara
Eos Amaterasu: the media is a key part of a "predator culture" that feeds on us
Zen Arado: feed it
Zen Arado: feed our violent instincts
Bruce Mowbray: how can we have violent instincts and be innocent at the same time?
Maxine Walden: it even seems when the media is minimized, that boys go for 'guns' or aggressive play of some sort, while girls go for more contained and nurturing activities...
arabella Ella: all our instincts i guess not only violent ones
Alfred Kelberry: meep-meep!
Eos Amaterasu: we amplify our playing as fighting games thru media and technology and monetization that has no animal sentience
Mickorod Renard: :)
Alfred Kelberry: cute bunny :)
Zen Arado: Hi Alf
arabella Ella: Hey Alfie!
Wol Euler: hello boxboy
Mickorod Renard: I think the innocence is under threat from day one
Alfred Kelberry: woly in feathers :)
Wol Euler grins
Bruce Mowbray agrees with Mick about the Day One threats.
Eos Amaterasu: but innocence has to learn fast, else it's dead meat
Gaya Ethaniel: :(
Eos Amaterasu: has to push itself into a higher innocence
Eos Amaterasu: innocence without naivete
--BELL--
Mickorod Renard: then for some its rediscovered but tarnished
Gaya Ethaniel: RL - enjoy the rest of your weekend :)
Alfred Kelberry: innocence as in purity?
Bruce Mowbray: When we drop what we have in order to be what we are, is that not a return to innocence?
Zen Arado: seems like it to me
Bruce Mowbray: A "higher innocence...."
Wol Euler: I find "innocence" a pretty loaded term, actually
Zen Arado: it isn't our innocence that gets us in trouble is it?
Alfred Kelberry: um, what kind of innocence do you mean, bruce?
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, a loaded mental construct -- like "justice" or "evil" etc etc etc.
Wol Euler: it suggests a state of neutrality and objecctivity, but the word itself is extremely heavily loaded
Bruce Mowbray: Well, I do feel that "innocence" has meaning. . .
Alfred Kelberry: *nods to wol*
arabella Ella: does it not suggeest a lack of malicious intent?
Bruce Mowbray: I see it close to equinimity.
Eos Amaterasu: innocence when overextended (like in Peter Pan) becomes corrupt
Eos Amaterasu: a kind of ignoranc
Eos Amaterasu: e
Zen Arado: "artlessness: the quality of innocent naivete purity: the state of being unsullied by sin or moral wrong; lacking a knowledge of evil a state or condition of being innocent of a specific crime or offense; "the trial established his innocence"
Mickorod Renard: I feel that to regain a life in some form of innocence is in todays world is seen as a very weak and naive triat. the dificulty for many is being humble enough to accept the perception by others, evenif its mis guided thoughts by others
Zen Arado: it's too close to naivete
Eos Amaterasu: "an innocent abroad"
Zen Arado: have to be 'wise as serpets but harmless as doves' it says in the Bible
Bruce Mowbray: Is "Beginner's Mind" a sort of naivete?
Mickorod Renard: thats a nice view Zen
Alfred Kelberry: i rather prefer the term "kindness" that's being used in buddhism
Eos Amaterasu: Zen Mind, Teflon Mind: nothing sticks
Zen Arado: hmm...think it's more about retaining a fresh attitude - not being a know all
Bruce Mowbray: so . . . also, no reactiveness. (and no stuckness).
Zen Arado: not letting our knowledge prejudge everything
Bruce Mowbray: Equanimity: neither preference nor prejudice.
Zen Arado: not being cunical too I guess
Zen Arado: cynical *
Mickorod Renard: thats a tricky state to obtain zen,,at least dificult to maintain
arabella Ella: brb
Zen Arado: it happens with less thinking ...I think
Wol Euler looks up from her Concordance and chuckles at Eos' joke
Mickorod Renard: but when one see's through diferent eyes so many wrongs appear with clarity
Maxine Walden: have to go...rl calling...will grab the log...nice conversation
Zen Arado: agrees with Eos - not remembering and clinging to the past too much
Wol Euler: bye maxine, take care
Bruce Mowbray: Be well, Maxine.
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye everyone
Eos Amaterasu: first thought, best ~~, Max
Eos Amaterasu: whups
Alfred Kelberry: eos, nothing sticks except zen mind? :)
Eos Amaterasu: well, zen can be overly zenny too
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Zen Arado: zen mind is a teflon mind :)
Mickorod Renard: that would be something of an objective for me Eos
Alfred Kelberry: there's always something attached
Bruce Mowbray: my "first thought" is too ofetn a reactive emotion-thought.
Zen Arado: no self = nothing to stick TO
Mickorod Renard: I still hurt from what I see
Wol Euler: it's interesting to consider what babies are innocent *of*
Wol Euler: certainly not self-attachment, there's nothing on earth more purely egotistical than a baby
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, innocence implies not guilty.
Eos Amaterasu: perhaps they are innocent of experience
Mickorod Renard: ignorance is bliss
Eos Amaterasu: question is how to have knowingness _and_ freshness
Zen Arado: selfish but they don't know about others yet Wol?
Bruce Mowbray: agrees with Wol abot selfish/egotistical babies.
Mickorod Renard: babies aare very selfish
Alfred Kelberry: eos, i think it's curiosity
Wol Euler: true, they don't have intention in the sense we use that word
Zen Arado: they have to be so dependent we feel they are selfish too
Bruce Mowbray: Babies seem to "know" how to get what they need.
Zen Arado: they have so many needs
Mickorod Renard: I have one here,,when she wants feeding she has no consideration what football match is on television
Wol Euler: heheheh
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Zen Arado: yes so selfish :)
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Alfred Kelberry: right, so we proved that babies are not innocent :)
Bruce Mowbray: revision: Babies seem to know how to get others to get what they (babies) need.
Zen Arado: innocent until proven guilty :)
Mickorod Renard: :)
--BELL--
Zen Arado: better go - bye all thanks for discussion:)
Wol Euler: goodnight zen, take care
Mickorod Renard: bye zen,,take care
Bruce Mowbray: Actually (and there is a baby screaming right now in this sports bar). . . we're more talking about "innocence" than about babies, I think - perhaps.
Mickorod Renard: perhaps we have hit on a point,,perhaps the innocence we are looking for is nothing like a babies
Bruce Mowbray: Good point, Mick.
Eos Amaterasu: Must also depart, bye all!
Mickorod Renard: bye eos
Bruce Mowbray: Be well, Eos.
Wol Euler: bye eos, take care
Bruce Mowbray: I think I shall be out of this NOISEY sports bar now.. THANKS, everyone.
Wol Euler: heheheh
Wol Euler: bye bruce
Mickorod Renard: we need an innocence after knowledge, that is something you have to work on
Alfred Kelberry: bye ny fan
Mickorod Renard: bye Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Bye, may all be well and happy 9and innocent too, if that works.)
stevenaia Michinaga: bye
Mickorod Renard: Did maxine talk about dreams?
Wol Euler: not htat I heard
Mickorod Renard: ok,,ty
Wol Euler: we could start now!
Alfred Kelberry: um, some would say that wearing an outfit like ara's in a public place may be considered *not* innocent :)
stevenaia Michinaga: I haven't been dreaming latey
Alfred Kelberry: i like ara's choice of clothing, though :)
Mickorod Renard: or perhaps not remembering the dreams Stevenaia
stevenaia Michinaga: hard to say which
Wol Euler: I've been dreaming pretty intensely about SL the last few days
Alfred Kelberry: mick, yes, they say we always dream
arabella Ella: Alfie ... i am from the Mediterranean where it is still summer
arabella Ella: come visit any time and i will show you what is not innocent :)
Wol Euler chuckles.
Alfred Kelberry: ara, yes, please :)
arabella Ella: anytime alfie!
Alfred Kelberry: wee! :)
Mickorod Renard: i bet your dreams are from sorting the retreat Wol
Wol Euler: heheh
Wol Euler: there is a little bit of panic surfacing as it approaches, I'll admit that
Alfred Kelberry: panic? you?
Wol Euler: me.
Alfred Kelberry: *hugs woly and pats her back*
Wol Euler pokes your cardboard belly
Wol Euler: affectionately
Alfred Kelberry: it'll be a lovely retreat :)
Wol Euler: I do hope so
Mickorod Renard: I have just seen that europe is now on high allert from terrorism attacks
Alfred Kelberry: mmm, cardboard belly - i like that :)
Alfred Kelberry: oh, yes, mick
stevenaia Michinaga: wow, 2 weeks
Alfred Kelberry: heard that on the news
stevenaia Michinaga: looks at retreat schedule
Alfred Kelberry: i'm sure woly is safe, though :)
Wol Euler: I hope os.
Wol Euler: *so
Mickorod Renard: you will need to check all participants for explosives and so forth,,its your duty Wol
Wol Euler: oh yes.
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Wol Euler: I have a sniffer dog and metal detector on order
Alfred Kelberry: a little puppy on retreat would be nice :)
stevenaia Michinaga: there may be a long wait for those
Mickorod Renard: its sad though, that so few can cause so much hurt
Wol Euler: are you volunteering to care for it, alf?
Alfred Kelberry: um, i can for a week :)
Alfred Kelberry: mick, yes, and simple people have to suffer all the "security measures" while terrorists don't have a problem with that
Wol Euler: I'll be checking for alcohol and cigarettes too, actually, both forbidden at teh retreat centre
Wol Euler: "pure in body and soul" y'know
Wol Euler: there's that "innocence" thing again
Alfred Kelberry: good rule
Mickorod Renard: cigars are ok though,,Pema recognised them as meditational tools
Mickorod Renard: :)
Wol Euler: I'll tell them that.
Wol Euler: "it's one of our sacred practices."
--BELL--
Alfred Kelberry: they do smell nice
Mickorod Renard: some do
Alfred Kelberry: unlike ikcy cig smoke
Alfred Kelberry: cigar shops are almost like tea shops with all the smell and little packs :)
Mickorod Renard: I remember years ago, whilst in France in a bar one would savour the smellof french cigs,,but alas the French smoke typical anglo american cigerettes now,,and they stink
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Wol Euler: oh yes, even as a fanatical non-smoker (which I no longer am) I liked the smell of Gauloises
arabella Ella: no more citanes Mick?
Wol Euler: Gitanes, yse, that was teh other brand.
Mickorod Renard: no more,,and they have a ban in bars too
Alfred Kelberry: wol, you started smoking?
Wol Euler: gods no.
Alfred Kelberry: oh, you're no longer "fanatic", ok :)
Mickorod Renard: Gitanes is a word they use for the cigarettes,,but also for gypsies
Mickorod Renard: they had something like'disc blue' too
Wol Euler: Gauloises is the smell of my first year of university, I'd never smelled that before.
Mickorod Renard: oh yes,,Gauloises
Alfred Kelberry: i like places where a smoking area starts just next table to the non-smoking one :)
arabella Ella: do they still exist Alfie?
Alfred Kelberry: yep
arabella Ella: in the states?
Mickorod Renard: yikes
Wol Euler: there was a very brief time when Lufthansa had smokers on the left of the aisle and nonsmokers on the right. So everyone sat next to a smoker!
Wol Euler: that didnt last.
arabella Ella: the only place i saw that recently was in spain
Alfred Kelberry: wol :)
Wol Euler: true, I was there.
Mickorod Renard: but i much prefered night clubs that were thick with smoke and so forth
arabella Ella: pubs will never be the same again
Wol Euler: except that you have to burn your clothes the next day. I don't miss that
Wol Euler: *had to
Alfred Kelberry: haha, exactly wol :)
arabella Ella: why not simply wash them wol?
Mickorod Renard: yes, and have a good shower afterwards
arabella Ella: i must go now good night everyone!
Wol Euler: *night ara, sleep well
Mickorod Renard: ok guys,,i better go too,,get some kip ,,work in the morning
Wol Euler: bye mick, sleep well
stevenaia Michinaga: bye Mic
Wol Euler: I should go too. (sighs)
stevenaia Michinaga: night Wol
Mickorod Renard: byeeeeee
Wol Euler: goodnight all, take care
Wol Euler: likewise!
stevenaia Michinaga: night
Wol Euler: bye alf
Alfred Kelberry: night feathers :)
Alfred Kelberry: ok, i'm off as well
stevenaia Michinaga: isn;t it late for you Alfred?
stevenaia Michinaga: sleep well
Alfred Kelberry: somewhat :)
Alfred Kelberry: bye