2010.10.24 13:00 - Pure Altruism. Is there such a thing?

The Guardian for this meeting was Aphrodite Macbain. The comments are by Aphrodite Macbain.

Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Wol
Wol Euler: hello aphrodite
Wol Euler: all alone?
Aphrodite Macbain: Glad to see you. I was feeling very lonely
Wol Euler: awww
Wol Euler gives your hand a squeeze
Aphrodite Macbain: I told Maxine I would tak her session.
Aphrodite Macbain squeezes back
Wol Euler: it's very odd for nobody to come on a Sunady
Wol Euler: *sunday
Aphrodite Macbain: Isn't it? We were very busy this morning at the Guardian session
Aphrodite Macbain: maybe they meetinged out
Wol Euler: heh
Wol Euler: I know that feeling
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey the both of you
Wol Euler: hello yaku
Yakuzza Lethecus: can you rebake wol ?
Aphrodite Macbain: I am in the middle of reading a very interesting article on whether people do generous things out of altruism or self interest. "Altruism" by Stephen Stich, John M. Doris & Erica Roedder

Wol Euler: heh
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Yaku
Wol Euler: do tell
Aphrodite Macbain: There are two camps, of course.
Aphrodite Macbain: Some people, like Thos Hobbes, say that everything we do is out of self interest since it is voluntary and satisfies our needs
Aphrodite Macbain: Thomas
Aphrodite Macbain: Others disagree. I find Thomas and his gang rather depressing
Wol Euler nods.
Aphrodite Macbain: what do you think?
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi druth
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi druth
druth Vlodovic: hey guys
Wol Euler: I'm inclined to say that it doesn't matter so much why somebody does a good thing, as that the good thing gets done.
Aphrodite Macbain: ah-the utilitarian approach.
Wol Euler: people like Malthus assume that goodness must be painful, and that pleasure (enjoyment) must be bad.
Wol Euler: which I think is crap (pardon my french)
Aphrodite Macbain: "But at least since Plato's classic discussion in the second book of the Republic, debate has raged over why people behave in these ways. Are their motives altruistic, or is their behavior ultimately motivated by self-interest?"
Aphrodite Macbain: It's an ongoing discussion that will probably go on for ever
Wol Euler: yep
druth Vlodovic: if I help someone and it makes me feel good, is this selfish?
Wol Euler: IMHO: no
Wol Euler: probably no :)
Aphrodite Macbain: according to some - yes
Wol Euler: if you did it in order totachieve that good feeling, it's borderline
Yakuzza Lethecus: but someone might do something good just to "appear" good in the media
Wol Euler: but if the good feeling arises naturally, then why not let it arise
druth Vlodovic: to think it is is damaging, people walk about being miserable all the time because it is "right" which is the opposite of true
Aphrodite Macbain: Because you are acting out of your own values - it would be painful for you to do otherwise
Aphrodite Macbain: This is what Hobbes said: "No man giveth but with intention of good to himself, because gift is voluntary; and of all voluntary acts, the object is to every man his own good; of which, if men see they shall be frustrated, there will be no beginning of benevolence or trust, nor consequently of mutual help. (Leviathan (1651), Ch. 15)
Wol Euler: I think we all need to define our positions a little more carefully, starting with myself.
Aphrodite Macbain: OK
Yakuzza Lethecus: it's tricky. Even what´s "good" is often questionable
Wol Euler: for me it depends on the nature of that "good" and from whom it comes
Wol Euler: if the good is external to both giver and recipient, as in the case of getting praise in the media, then I'd agree that it is probably wrong.
Aphrodite Macbain: yes. but the question is - are you doing it to satisfy yourself, what ever that "good" is.
Wol Euler: if *I* satisfy myself that way without either taking from you (praise, love, approval) then why is that bad?
Yakuzza Lethecus: i am actually uncertain about most ppl including myself if there is "true altruism"
druth Vlodovic: there is
Yakuzza Lethecus: even those who believe that true altruism exists
Aphrodite Macbain: I don't think it's a moral question of whether it is good or bad,
but whether it is truly altruistic
Wol Euler: the border condition to me (thinking out loud) is whether the goodness comes from within, or if I *take* it from outside
druth Vlodovic: only the myth of perpetual misery says otherwise
Wol Euler: then I wonder what truly altruistic means :)
Aphrodite Macbain: to be completely selfless
druth Vlodovic: to be miserable increases the amount of misery in the world, so what could possibly make it a desireable state?
Wol Euler nods to druth. Right on.
Wol Euler: exactly right
Aphrodite Macbain: nobody says you should be miserable
Wol Euler: Hobbes hated happiness and feared pleasure.
Wol Euler: IMHO YMMV :)
Aphrodite Macbain: I think it's a little about what Buddhism teachs. To have no attachment, personal or emotional, to anything
Yakuzza Lethecus: hehe, being in a stoic state of mine can also be comfortable
--BELL--
Wol Euler: but if I can only be altruistic if I do not feel happiness in what I do?
Yakuzza Lethecus: I mean does pleasure mean that we have to yell the funniest song? can't a calm mediatative state of appreciation also be a great pleasure with internal happiness ?
Wol Euler: yes
Wol Euler: hello ara
arabella Ella: hiya everyone!
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey ara
Aphrodite Macbain: I hold no position on this yet. I'll just keep reading this 92 page article until I get a sense of all the perspectives
Wol Euler nods
druth Vlodovic: people naturally derive pleasure from the pleasure of others
Yakuzza Lethecus: can you give a reference on that article ?
Aphrodite Macbain: hello arabella
druth Vlodovic: and pain from other's pain
druth Vlodovic: it is only a corruption of human nature that makes things otherwise
Aphrodite Macbain: and there is nothing wrong with deriving pleasure out of doing good. All they're saying is that because we derive pleasure we are not totally altruistic
Wol Euler: then I wonder whether total altruism ever can exist
druth Vlodovic: but we are, we take pleasure in being altruistic because of the same prompting that caused us to be altruistic in the first place
Aphrodite Macbain: someone who has no ego at all can perhaps experience it
Yakuzza Lethecus: someone who found the buddha nature and has no need of externalized happyiness might be able to be altruistic
Aphrodite Macbain: I find it is a mean-spirited way to look at doing good but perhaps it gives us greater insight into ourselves and what motivates us
Yakuzza Lethecus: since he had no need to "gain" anything more and is just doing right
Aphrodite Macbain: right Yaku, I think you've hit on something
arabella Ella: pleasure and pain may motivate or de-motivate a number of ppl but in the real work that position is very difficult to maintain ... realistically
Aphrodite Macbain: could you continue arabella...?
arabella Ella: yes of course
druth Vlodovic: the concept benefits those who seek to profit by pain, by making people feel guilty about feeling pleasure from the pleasure of altruism they then feel guilty about altruism, and thus do less
arabella Ella: there are so many complex and indeterminate situations in real life that make this position impossible
arabella Ella: how do you calculate pleasure?
Aphrodite Macbain: I dont think that was their intention
arabella Ella: is intense pleasure for one person greater or lesser than medium pleasure for more people?
arabella Ella: and if you are in a situation where you can only save one person's life out of two who you hold equally dear? Whose do you save?
Aphrodite Macbain: I accept the fact that I get pleasure out of doing good to others, of even sacrificing my benefits for others, but I'm ready to accept that I am not being totally altruistic
Wol Euler: nor should you. IMO
Aphrodite Macbain: that I get some form of pleasure, some ego-boost
Aphrodite Macbain: It is not about judging people, just observing what is
Aphrodite Macbain: if it is, is
arabella Ella nods
Wol Euler: sorry, mis-read you. scrub that.
arabella Ella: yes pleasure is a great motivator
druth Vlodovic: based on the concept that pleasure and self-care are bad, ideals promoted by those who seek to control others by making them unsure of themselves,
arabella Ella: and what would life be like if there were to be no pleasure at all ... i dunno ... horrible i guess
druth Vlodovic: lol, now I'm repeating myself, I'll stop
Wol Euler nods to druth
arabella Ella: why is pleasure bad?
Aphrodite Macbain: no one said pleasure or self care are bad druth
Aphrodite Macbain: it just is
druth Vlodovic: lots of people say it is
druth Vlodovic: why is selfish a bad word? (and now I've broken my promise)
Aphrodite Macbain: I have a rotten cold and I'm going to retreat from this really interesting conversation and lie down. TTFN .
Wol Euler: hello mick
Mickorod Renard: Hi
Wol Euler: bye aphro, get well soon.
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey mick
arabella Ella: Hiya Mick
Mickorod Renard: bye aphro
Wol Euler: I hope we weren't too harsh
Yakuzza Lethecus: take care aphro
arabella Ella: i hope we werent
arabella Ella: bye aphro
Aphrodite Macbain: No, not at all, I just don't think I made myself clearly understood. Remember, these aren't my ideas. I just raised the issue for discussion because I was reading about this subject!
druth Vlodovic: bye aph
Mickorod Renard: lots of colds around at the moment
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye
druth Vlodovic: if I make a person feel better and that person smiles, and I feel good from the smile, and fufilled by helping, does that diminish the value of what I did? my position is "no"
Wol Euler: bye
arabella Ella: i dont think there is anything wrong in considering pleasure
Wol Euler: agreed
arabella Ella: and what would life be with no pleasure ... arghhhh!
druth Vlodovic: my problem, I think, is that I do understand aphrodite's position, and it angers me that such a concept has been promoted so successfully for so long
Wol Euler: I was trying to figure out why this is so emotionally loaded for me too :)
--BELL--

Button pushing

in
Wol Euler: because it definitely pushed some buttons
Mickorod Renard: I have deliberated over this subject too
Mickorod Renard: its a bit awkward
druth Vlodovic: lol, "emotions help a person avoid feeling" an interesting concept, that's why I announced that I was angry, it does help defuse my own feelings a little
Yakuzza Lethecus: it depends on specific cases i guess, a politician shows himself with a child and might even really make "this child" happy
Yakuzza Lethecus: and wants to be seen with it and appear in the media
arabella Ella: i am not sure i can recognise any problem so if someone could explain it to me i would really appreciate!
Yakuzza Lethecus: it's a good thing for "this child"
Mickorod Renard: I just feel glad that there is a sort of reward for doing good, that of feeling happy inside
Wol Euler: I'm not sure if I could express the "problem" fairly :)
arabella Ella: i see no wrong in sometimes considering the happiness of our own selves, our own being
arabella Ella: besides of course others
Yakuzza Lethecus: it's not easy to describe in it´s full complexity
druth Vlodovic: the problem is that if a person does a "good deed" for non-altruistic reasons then soon the welfare of others will no longer be beneficial to the person
arabella Ella: why not?
druth Vlodovic: eventually the politician will have to allocate funds, perhaps he will get more votes by reducing taxes and rescind what he did for the child
Wol Euler: this is black-and-white thinking.
Wol Euler: that's what annoys me
arabella Ella nods
Wol Euler: if a person feels good about doing good, then that is ALL that they can possibly feel and also the ONLY possible reason they could ever have or have had.
Yakuzza Lethecus: It helps us getting to a more complex model wol
arabella Ella: and if that is all a person can feel but they do good what is wrong with that?
Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s not only about feeling good about doing good it's about "gain" of doing good
arabella Ella: brb
druth Vlodovic: people are more complex than that Wol, a person might feel bad by getting sworn at for doing good, but still feel satisfaction that they did do good
Mickorod Renard: there is also the alternative view "that of the person recieving your compassion may not be due that assistance because of karma"
Wol Euler: absolutely.
Wol Euler: that is my point.
Mickorod Renard: yes Druth
Yakuzza Lethecus: i think we might not make progress in the discussion without clear examples - that I can´t provide :P
arabella Ella: back
Mickorod Renard: who knows what the big story is, I think as a whole its all very complex and interwoven
Wol Euler: wb
Yakuzza Lethecus: i have the feeling we all have different things in mind :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: wb ara :)
Wol Euler: very probably, yaku :)
Wol Euler points to the blind men and the elephant
druth Vlodovic: pick a simple one, a person you sort of know looks sad, so you go ask them what's wrong
arabella Ella: well there is personal pleasure and pleasure to others i guess, right?
Yakuzza Lethecus: I got the snake!
Wol Euler: yep :()
druth Vlodovic: so why do that?
Mickorod Renard: yes, if i show compassion to them they may leave me something in their will
druth Vlodovic: but imagine yourself in that situation, is that what you are thinking?
arabella Ella: i would like everyone in the world to be happier ... less problems all around
arabella Ella: more harmony
Mickorod Renard: there is always that little ditty about do unto others what u would like done to yourself,,,or something like that. I of course have to constrain myself lots
druth Vlodovic: be honest, don't pre-judge yourself harshly
Yakuzza Lethecus: listening to GW Bush the invasion of IRAQ sounded like an altruistic act to bring democracy and harmonie there, but is that the truth" ?
Wol Euler: no rubbing up against random strangers, mick?
Mickorod Renard: :) he he he
arabella Ella giggles
arabella Ella: or chatting up random strangers perhaps?
Mickorod Renard: as if i would
arabella Ella: as many have wont to do
druth Vlodovic: international politics is a complex example, nothing is done for only one reason, even in the simplest case
Wol Euler: yep
Mickorod Renard: true
Mickorod Renard: there is often some form of exploitation
arabella Ella: ok so if you are at a train station and someone asks you for money and they look poor and whatever ... what do you do ... and why?
druth Vlodovic: if I approach a sad person I am first off concerned, secondly a bit fearful of the reaction, also hopeful that I might help, and perhaps hoping I might have a good conversation
Yakuzza Lethecus: someone might not intentionelly be in 'the will" of someone else but if everyone is whom you think that is exploited that person and you are not but showed compassion and helped this person all the time, will you be unhappy is one of the questions
druth Vlodovic: but all hopes are malleable, the primary reason is concern for another human being becasue she is a human being
--BELL--
Mickorod Renard: that was a bit of a lot to take on board yaku
Mickorod Renard: need to read it a few times
arabella Ella: why should you be unhappy for helping someone else?
Wol Euler: no reason that I can see :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: when you put it that way it sounds simple ara :)
Mickorod Renard: I think it depends who u are, if u are a compassionate person then the reason for anything is insignificanmt
Yakuzza Lethecus: in my example it was that the ppl with bad behavior" are better off
arabella Ella: ok the only reason i can think of is if it ends up being a scam which could be a possibility of course
Wol Euler: ok, let's turn this around. Is it WRONG to do a good action that I will enjoy doing?
Wol Euler: (taking "enjoy" loosely)
Yakuzza Lethecus: will you feel sad about advantaged ppl with bad behavior ?
Mickorod Renard: no, imo
arabella Ella: not wrong at all IMHO Wol
druth Vlodovic: no...but
Mickorod Renard: that was to wol
arabella Ella: why but?
Wol Euler: expand, please, druth?
arabella Ella: i dont see why one should not enjoy doing a good action
druth Vlodovic: if you find that you didn't enjoy it *this* time do you get angry, or make it less of a good deed in order to get your enjoyment
arabella Ella: the opposite of enjoy is to feel bored or fed up or nasty about doing it or indifferent which is even worse
Mickorod Renard: I may feel anoyed at advantaged people with bad behavior
Wol Euler: ok, then let's step it up once more. Is it better to not perform a good action because I would not be doing it altruistically?
Wol Euler: If I can see that I cannot do X without feeling good about it, should I therefore not do X?
arabella Ella: depends on what X is
 

Foodbanks for example

druth Vlodovic: lets say you work at a food bank, and expectation is gratitude from the "customers" but what if you don't get any gratitude, do you get snarly?
arabella Ella: depends
Mickorod Renard: I think its good to do a good act regardless of motives
Wol Euler: well, there we have to be careful. If there is expectation of a reward from outside of yourself, the you are not altruistic
Wol Euler: IMHO YMMV
druth Vlodovic: going to a foodbank is an awful feeling
Mickorod Renard: sometimes people know even without a heart, and perhaps later find a heart
Wol Euler: somebody who expects gratitude has an attachment that needs loosening. Somebody who happens to feel good about working at the food bank does not.
Wol Euler shuts up.
arabella Ella: it is probably the expectation of certain action from others that is unrealistic ... why should we expect certain behaviour from others?
Wol Euler: yep
Yakuzza Lethecus: but that "awful feeling" must not be the case if you did it 10 times and got even friends there
arabella Ella agrees with Wol here about attachment etc.
druth Vlodovic: perhaps it would have gotten easier in time, fortunately I never had the chance to find out
arabella Ella: so what is your experience druth?
arabella Ella: if you don't mind my asking?
druth Vlodovic: I was a customer btw :( it felt very negative, and I had a hard time not getting snarly with people who went about saying "This is just an emergency thing, you shouldn't get used to coming here." Seriously, I could have bitten the bastard
druth Vlodovic: if I didn't know that I wouldn't have cared what he thought
arabella Ella nods
arabella Ella: but
arabella Ella: isnt this a sort of game?
arabella Ella: which people play?
Mickorod Renard: how do y mean ara?
arabella Ella: ok
arabella Ella: so if you have 'needs'
Yakuzza Lethecus: I must go to bed :(
arabella Ella: which are meant to be 'temporary'
Yakuzza Lethecus: take care everyone
Wol Euler: bye yaku, take care
arabella Ella: those providing for those needs
Mickorod Renard: nite Yaku
arabella Ella: say so and try to stop you from becoming a regular
druth Vlodovic: I felt that they were being superior and condescending, but I also knew that that may not have been a fair evaluation
arabella Ella: while at the same time knowing that it is likely you will become a regular anyway
Wol Euler nods.
druth Vlodovic: it is a bad way
arabella Ella: it is all a game
Mickorod Renard: I see ara
Wol Euler: it'a vicious and nasty and demeaning game
druth Vlodovic: those most likely to be affected are those most legitimately in need of help
arabella Ella: oh yes i agree druth
arabella Ella: but there are many levels of understanding
Mickorod Renard: I wouldnt have thought of it as a game, but yes, some sort of gentle persuasion maybe
arabella Ella: not just the surface one
Mickorod Renard: it depends if they also offer some path
druth Vlodovic: maybe it was a defensive reaction to seeing so many people who could do better taking advantage (unfairly) of the service, or self-inflicting the circumstances that caused them to need it
arabella Ella: not exactly defensive druth
Mickorod Renard: I am looking from a different perspective-like soup kitchen in london-I see there are differences
arabella Ella: more likely one which they mistakenly thought may encourage some not to seek that path in the future due to perceived lack of resources which was not the real way things were
--BELL--
arabella Ella: limited resources in other words
Mickorod Renard: but if u are in africa-then seeing westerners dishing food out when one may percieve the problem emenating from western exploitation may be frustrating
Mickorod Renard: is that more in line?
arabella Ella: ah the thing about helping others is
arabella Ella: give them a fishing rod ... not give them fish
arabella Ella: so they will learn to go find their own fish in the future
druth Vlodovic: but first you poison their river
Wol Euler: hehehehehhe
druth Vlodovic: lol, I suspect we are veering off topic
Mickorod Renard: yea, and demand licence fee's for fishing
Mickorod Renard: at exhorbitant prices
druth Vlodovic: though I suppose this is a reason we should be fearful of "altruistic" actions without altruistic motivations
arabella Ella: ah ... no comment at this stage!
druth Vlodovic: the actions get corrupted
Mickorod Renard: I see some of this- like how markets are created by the rich
Mickorod Renard: markets as in new forms of commercialism
druth Vlodovic: so if we expect to get back from altruistic actions, and we don't (usually thew case) then we feel justified in taking
Wol Euler: if we expect to get back, then the action wasn't altruistic
druth Vlodovic: our fishers are ungrateful so we feel it is only right to jack up fishing license fees
arabella Ella: noooooo
arabella Ella: one has a choice in life as one chooses to take action
arabella Ella: one can beg and ask for food
arabella Ella: or one could learn to grow food or find a job regardless and earn money to buy food
Mickorod Renard: I am getting lost in this
arabella Ella: those who give
arabella Ella: may receive some sort of pleasure in giving
arabella Ella: but what is wrong with that?
Wol Euler: nothing at all
Wol Euler: if you receive from yorself.
arabella Ella: as long as they are doing the right thing in helping others less fortunate
Mickorod Renard: I do get suspicious when someone offers me something
druth Vlodovic: if a person can convince others that there is no such thing as pure altruism then it is easier to demand back from the beneficiaries
Wol Euler: if you expect a return from OUTSIDE, then it is not altruistic
arabella Ella agrees with Wol
Mickorod Renard: if I give a little love I dont see what the cost is
druth Vlodovic: personal risk
Mickorod Renard: if they smile then that is a huge reward for me
Mickorod Renard: unfortunatly I am naive and a bit simple
Wol Euler: long may you remain so, mick :)
Mickorod Renard: ty:)
Wol Euler: and I agree
arabella Ella nods too!
druth Vlodovic: the reward still comes from inside yourself, since the person's smile is a natural reaction, though sometimes we do smile to show gratitude, rather han because we feel happy
Wol Euler nods.
Mickorod Renard: I think its more of a quicker high if you see an immediate response
arabella Ella: intuitively we can somehow tell what the reaction is ... a genuine smile for example
Mickorod Renard: but I wouldnt do something I see as positive on the basis of a reward even if it's from me
Mickorod Renard: but I may judge what action to take based on what appears to please people
Mickorod Renard: so its a sort of loop
arabella Ella: BUT
arabella Ella: imagine kids
--BELL--
Wol Euler: that's fine, I think, as long as you don't expect to gain fom them for it
arabella Ella: ask them to do something and offer them a monetary reward ... that is how unfortunately we condition them
druth Vlodovic: I almost never reward mine with money, or anything, except to mow the lawn, and that hardly ever gets done in time :/
Mickorod Renard: I know the feeling Druth
Mickorod Renard: :)
druth Vlodovic: though I do imply reward sometimes "You want to wear clothes? Then fold the laundry!"
Wol Euler: "you don't feel like cutting the lawn. that's fine. I don't feel like making dinner."
druth Vlodovic: kids are IMHO both selfish and altruistic
Wol Euler: (parent said to kid)
arabella Ella: well the other day i needed to wash my car
arabella Ella: and the kids in my street said they would do it but for money :)
arabella Ella: entrepreneurship at its best
arabella Ella: i would yes but a dirty car depreciates quicker and could give me more expenses in long run
druth Vlodovic: but you would have lived even if your car stayed dirty
Mickorod Renard: I sometimes wonder whether compassion is something that has to be realized and is not a natural human attribute
druth Vlodovic: well, I don't do that WOL, that's more like a guilt trip, and kind of unreasonable
Mickorod Renard: ok,,i need to go home but ty for the conversation
druth Vlodovic: bye mick
Wol Euler: 'night mick. take care
Wol Euler: actually I should go too, it's getting late
arabella Ella: i must go too!
Mickorod Renard: bye,,and stay positive everyone,,thats an order
Wol Euler: this was an interesting conversation, I'm glad Aprho started it.
druth Vlodovic: so it's monetary gain you want? and on the back of child labour
Wol Euler: goodnight, be altruistic :)
arabella Ella nods
arabella Ella: nite everyone!
arabella Ella: no druth
druth Vlodovic: I'll have to apologize to her, it just hit some buttons I'm afraid
arabella Ella: sorry got to get that straight
arabella Ella: i dont want child labour at all i think that is despicable
druth Vlodovic: I was kidding ara
arabella Ella: i just gave an example of what kids are like today
druth Vlodovic: I forgot my smiley :)
arabella Ella: :)

washing cars for fun and profit

arabella Ella: but i must admit when i was a child we would have loved to gain a few cents from washing a car but never had the opportunity!
druth Vlodovic: I suspect kids have always been like that
arabella Ella: there were few cars around in those days
arabella Ella: and people had more time to care for them
druth Vlodovic: but when you did wash a car it was a family car I bet, and you probably had fun doing it
druth Vlodovic: yes
arabella Ella: ah ... i never have fun washing cars!
arabella Ella: not my type of fun
arabella Ella: more of a duty that has to be done
druth Vlodovic: no? my kids were more enthusiastic than good when young, we used to have driveway shoveling parties at 5:00am
arabella Ella giggles
arabella Ella: what fun that sounds like
druth Vlodovic: it was,
arabella Ella: sure
druth Vlodovic: we got shovels for everyone, and they would make little hills to slide on
arabella Ella: but the older we get the more we understand what we enjoy doing and what we dont
druth Vlodovic: I suspect we just stop doing things we like
arabella Ella: and doing stuff with the rest of the family and with a community is great
arabella Ella: doing stuff alone is different
druth Vlodovic: and because we "have to"
arabella Ella: I disagree about doing stuff we like doing
arabella Ella: we never stop doing things we enjoy doing ... we are motivated to do things we enjoy doing of course
druth Vlodovic: slides are always fun, but you seldom see adults on them
druth Vlodovic: ambarassment sets in
arabella Ella: i dont see why adults should not go on slides too :)
arabella Ella: i always say ... nurture the child within!
arabella Ella: i must go now it is very late here
arabella Ella: bye for now and thanks for the chat!
druth Vlodovic: ok, sweet dreams
arabella Ella: thanks you too when it is your bedtime!
druth Vlodovic: :)