2010.10.20 13:00 - Drop your past - Where?

The Guardian for this meeting was Fefonz Quan. The comments are by Fefonz Quan.

Bertram Jacobus: hello freud :-)
--BELL--
Freud Jungsten: I am on a text only viewer, so I cna't see where I am at... grins
Bertram Jacobus: ah i see - np ! you´re hovering besides the cushions - so : all fine ! :-)
Freud Jungsten: Oh good... not sure how this is supposed to work.
Freud Jungsten: But I needed something for my log connection speed.
Bertram Jacobus: hehe. i also heard from it only some days ago - that such exists
Freud Jungsten: Not a big crowd today I guess.
Bertram Jacobus: not yet ... only me so far and arch arriving ... ;-)
Freud Jungsten: SL seems pretty slow today overall anyway.
Bertram Jacobus: yes ! i have it too - nearly happy to hear that - so it´s not my system
Freud Jungsten: So I am just huvering?... Am I rezzed or a cloud?
Bertram Jacobus: no. rezzed as a beautyful avatar ... ;-)
Freud Jungsten: Thanks... I do try.
Bertram Jacobus: you do very well i find :-)
Freud Jungsten: I have been working on my SL look for years.
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
Bertram Jacobus: don´t most of us do that ? ...
Freud Jungsten: Try to get Freud to look as much like me as I can RL... very hard to find an close skin, that was the hardest part.
Bertram Jacobus: hello yaku ! :-)
Freud Jungsten: When I first joined, I didnt.... was great fun.
Fefonz Quan: hi all :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi fef :)
Bertram Jacobus: hi fefonz ! :-)
Freud Jungsten: O si yo.
Archmage Atlantis: Hello, Freud, Yaku, Fefonz, Bertram
Fefonz Quan: O si yo
Bertram Jacobus: i hope it´s still fun for you freud ! (?) ;-)
Archmage Atlantis: And all those who may be here that have not rezzed for me
Wol Euler: hello everyone
Freud Jungsten: Heya
Fefonz Quan: Hi Wol!
Bertram Jacobus: hello arch again - how is your connection currently ? i hope not too bad ?
Bertram Jacobus: hello wol ... :-)
Yakuzza Lethecus: nabend wollie
Wol Euler: :)
Fefonz Quan: Wol, Bert, Yaku - how was the retreat?
Wol Euler waits modestly for the others to reply
Freud Jungsten: What retreat?
Yakuzza Lethecus: well, would have been better with you :)
Archmage Atlantis: Hi, Wol.......still slow Bertram
Yakuzza Lethecus: but still it was great
Wol Euler: hello freud, hadn't noticed you there.
Bertram Jacobus: quite nice - we will have a so to say "report session" on friday 7 am - is that correct wol, yaku ? :-)
Wol Euler: saturday 7am
Bertram Jacobus: saturday, sry
Yakuzza Lethecus: yeah, saturday i was confused since pema mentioned so many dates ,,he couldn´t make"
Wol Euler: Freud, six of us met for a RL retreat in Germany last week
Freud Jungsten: I am on a text only "viewer" so I am just anywhere it seems.
Bertram Jacobus: silly me - wanted to write that (!?) - strange human faults sometimes (mine i mean) ...
Alfred Kelberry: meep-meep!
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey boxy
Bertram Jacobus: hello alf :-)
Wol Euler: the group meets 4 times a year in RL
Freud Jungsten: Where at?
Alfred Kelberry: oi :)
Wol Euler: it varies
Archmage Atlantis: Odd, Freud was here when I got here, yet she is the only one I can't see
Wol Euler: each time a different place (so far)
Wol Euler: hello alf
Alfred Kelberry: fef :)
Wol Euler: to forestall disappointment, it's for guardians only, not public admission :)
Archmage Atlantis: Hi, Alfie
Freud Jungsten: I am planning a trip back to Munich next summer... if you are having one around then I might show up.
Fefonz Quan: hey alf :)
Freud Jungsten: Oh... never mind then... smiles
Wol Euler: though we are considering how to include non-members too
Alfred Kelberry: fef, when is "mazel tov" coming? :)
Wol Euler: well, the problem wold be that the members have a huge amount of shared context and history
Fefonz Quan: who knows? it's a mystery Alf
Alfred Kelberry: hehe
Wol Euler: with a "beginner" there we'd be having to stop and explain every third sentnece
Alfred Kelberry: exciting :)
Wol Euler: yeah :)
Wol Euler: fingers crossed.
--BELL--
Freud Jungsten: Not to mention that my Deutsche ist zehr slect.
Fefonz Quan: though for guardians that neer were on a retreat, similar problem might arise too
Wol Euler: yes but no, fef. they at least know the concets and practices, from sessions here.
Wol Euler: *concepts
Fefonz Quan nods (silently)
Archmage Atlantis: Wol, the guardians are like a secret ruling social class to those of us who attend regularly, but are not guardians......it decreases the pleasure of the overall concept of PaB. Imho
Wol Euler: that is a fair opinion, arch
Wol Euler: except that it's not secret and we don't rule :)
Freud Jungsten: Sounds like a good excuse to have a drink though.
Bertram Jacobus: there are retreats "all over the world", also in the us, canada, malta ... and last week also eos from canada was with us for example - our common language is still english i think so far ... :-)
Wol Euler: yes, retreats are held in English
Wol Euler: since the discussions here are.
Wol Euler: else we'd be having to discuss translation and terminology for hours :)
Fefonz Quan: I'm glad for it :)
Freud Jungsten: and my philisophicl Tsalagi is a bit sparse anyway.
Wol Euler smiles.
Fefonz Quan: (the retreat in Malta slid towards german frequently,...)
Fefonz Quan: (so i practiced thappreciating the appearance of sounds i don't understand :))
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Wol Euler: if you're interested, freud, there is a section on the wiki called "Retreats", with people's reports on previous meetings
Freud Jungsten: I will check that out.. thanks.
Fefonz Quan: btw - beautiful hair color Wol.
Wol Euler: ty :)
Wol Euler: my favourite/usual
Alfred Kelberry: beautiful legs, too :)
Wol Euler grins.
Archmage Atlantis: " except that it's not secret and we don't rule :)" - well perhaps not....but I would encourage that be looked at by Pila and the guardians
Wol Euler: noted
Archmage Atlantis: The impression remains
Archmage Atlantis: Even for ones who read the wiki regularly
Fefonz Quan: can you explaing this arch:"but I would encourage that be looked at by Pila and the guardians"?
Fefonz Quan: (my poor english, sorry)
Archmage Atlantis: I understand Fef
Archmage Atlantis: It is a matter of perspective
Archmage Atlantis: Knowlege and planning that is not shared
Wol Euler: all knowledge is shared on the wiki, arch. There is no other location
Archmage Atlantis: or not shared completelyu
Wol Euler: even the secret guardians-only meetings are publlished there too
Fefonz Quan: (maybe i didn't said it correctly - i truely don't understand literally what you meant Arch)
Archmage Atlantis: Disagree Wol
Wol Euler: then I too would ask you to explain
Fefonz Quan: say*
Archmage Atlantis: Timeliness of knowledge........chain messages passed only amoung the guardians
Alfred Kelberry: :/
Wol Euler: arch the only mesages we pass privately are about the organization of the retreats. And that is private even within the circle of guardians.
Wol Euler: Nobody except Pema and Eos have any need to know what my bank account number is, for example
Wol Euler: (because I organized the last retreat)
Wol Euler: *all* other information is shared on the wiki
Freud Jungsten: You can tell me... I promise to keep it safe.. grins
Alfred Kelberry: *peeks to see woly's bank account*
Archmage Atlantis: I state only how I see / feel.....perhaps it is a personal issue
Freud Jungsten: I guess I don't really understand the workings, I just stop by here for a chat from time to time.
Wol Euler nods. I accept that, Arch,
Fefonz Quan: that's what i do too Freud
Archmage Atlantis: Let us move to another topic, pls
Freud Jungsten: What happends behind the scene is not really of concern to me.... to me
Alfred Kelberry: where did your fluffy things go, woly? :)
Wol Euler raises an eyebrow.
Wol Euler: which fluffies?
Alfred Kelberry: the dress :)
Fefonz Quan likes the word 'fluffy'
Bertram Jacobus: i don´t think so : i also have sometimes a bad feeling about a feeling which says inside me : two classes society ? i must admit ... but my idea is, that it is because of the permissions - at least refering to new visitors and seldom coming ones ...
Wol Euler: oh, right.
Wol Euler: well, I changed.
Agatha Macbeth: Evening all :)
Wol Euler: hello aggers
Freud Jungsten: O si yo
Fefonz Quan: Hy Agathat!
Bertram Jacobus: sry. i´m so often late with my typings ...
Bertram Jacobus: hello agatha
Agatha Macbeth grins @ Berti
Freud Jungsten: Just don't let it happen again.. grins
Agatha Macbeth: Just type quietly Bert :p
Bertram Jacobus: i can´t avoid it : i´m slow ...
--BELL--
Fefonz Quan: nice color matchig agg
Agatha Macbeth: ty :)
Wol Euler: is thgat for tomorrow's Wear Purple Day?
Wol Euler: -g
Agatha Macbeth: Oh is it tomorrow?
Wol Euler: I hope so :)
Fefonz Quan: is there one? :)
Wol Euler: hopeit wasn't today
Agatha Macbeth: Thought it was today
Wol Euler: oh damn
Freud Jungsten: What is wear purple day for?
Fefonz Quan: you can always claim it's the time zones :)
Agatha Macbeth: Hang on, I'll check
Wol Euler: october 20, google says
Wol Euler: so I missed it
Fefonz Quan: ("it's tomorrow somewhere.....")
Fefonz Quan: (goes for yesterday too)
Agatha Macbeth: Well, that's today by my reckoning :)
Freud Jungsten: Well today is yesterday's tomorrow.
Agatha Macbeth: (Maybe it's yesterday in New Zealand)
Alfred Kelberry: *notes woly's hair* :)
Fefonz Quan: purple day, puhurple day... puaw pau pau papauaupapapau pau
Agatha Macbeth: Yes Fonzie, quite...:))
Freud Jungsten: So why purple and not... mauve?
Agatha Macbeth: Same difference
Wol Euler: "Tomorrow is "Wear Purple Day," also known as "Spirit Day." Join millions to show your support of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) youth by wearing purple to participate in Spirit Day and remember those teens who have taken their own lives as a result of anti-LGBT bullying."
Freud Jungsten: Well, no.... I have some mauve pollish, but not purple... grins
Freud Jungsten: OH that.... lol
Wol Euler: eh, close enough. LGBT is inclusive :)
Agatha Macbeth nods
Fefonz Quan: maybe because too many people don't know what mauve is ;-)
Agatha Macbeth: Or lilac?
Fefonz Quan: that's better
Alfred Kelberry: fair point, fef :)
Agatha Macbeth: Mmm
Freud Jungsten: Now should be BGILTQQ
Freud Jungsten: Lavender is nice as well.,
Fefonz Quan: qq?
Wol Euler: mm?
Fefonz Quan: ll?
Freud Jungsten: Queer Questioning
Wol Euler: ah :)
Agatha Macbeth: Luci Lavender is nice, yes :)
Fefonz Quan smiles under his mustache
Agatha Macbeth: To me ll is Linden Labs ;-)
Wol Euler: IDFIYSIB day perhaps
Freud Jungsten: How do you spell that?
Wol Euler: :)
Wol Euler: IDFIYSIB
Agatha Macbeth: T-H-A-T
Fefonz Quan: with an H
Wol Euler: heheh
Freud Jungsten: Auf Deutsche?
Fefonz Quan: nine
Wol Euler: das
Agatha Macbeth: 9
Freud Jungsten: If I am going to get back over there I need to brush up on my German.
Agatha Macbeth: Number 9 dream
Wol Euler: you'd be surprised how easy it is, Freud. Eryyone your age and younger speaks at least some engllish.
Wol Euler: *everyone
Fefonz Quan: I had something bothering me concerning the 'no present-past-future' issue today
Freud Jungsten: Funny enough, I found it easier to understand German's speaking English than understanding Brits speaking English.
Wol Euler: say more, fef?
Agatha Macbeth: Doesn't surprise me
Wol Euler: yes, they speak more clearly.
Archmage Atlantis: I prefer GLBTI as the acronym
Fefonz Quan: somwtime we practice the 'only noe exists' concept (in RL aadn other)
Fefonz Quan: yet, when i arranged an old closet, i found m some paper from my highschool
Wol Euler: :)
Fefonz Quan: and it documented very clearly images of my highschool, friends etc.
Freud Jungsten: What sort of papers?
Fefonz Quan: and in the same manner it did when i read it other times in the past
Fefonz Quan: (school magazine)
Wol Euler: so you are telling us that your memory is consistent with your earlier memories? :)
Fefonz Quan: so, although our memories of the past might be changing and fluid, documents stay solid and clear
Alfred Kelberry: wol, with his earlier self :)
Wol Euler: and that earlier self exists where?
Agatha Macbeth: Earlier no-self :p
Wol Euler: hello eos
Bertram Jacobus: hello eos ! :-)
Fefonz Quan: i don't know, but the document is a clear evidence of the past
Alfred Kelberry: it's gone
Freud Jungsten: Documents get pretty squishy as well when left in the wrong hands.
Archmage Atlantis: Once had a decision about there being multiple spoken English languages.....British, US, Austrailian and the newly evovling "internet English"
Eos Amaterasu: Hi AVs
Fefonz Quan: Hi Eos
Freud Jungsten: O si yo
Agatha Macbeth: Hiya Eos :)
--BELL--
Fefonz Quan: so yes Wol, memory of earlier memories is consistent...
Fefonz Quan: we lost Wol...
Agatha Macbeth nods. Crashed again....
Freud Jungsten: I am not 100% sure the past of future exist... but I am not going to change anything I do over that doubt.
Agatha Macbeth: Still having issues with her internet connection
Fefonz Quan: So my point was, that no only memories, but people from the past, sheared experiences and solid document are sometimes so obvious, it's hard to think of no past in that sense
Agatha Macbeth: wb Wol :)
Fefonz Quan: hi Wol, great dress
Wol Euler: ty
Wol Euler: my purplest dress
Eos Amaterasu: back from the virtual closet
Agatha Macbeth: Hehe
Wol Euler: for IDFIYSIB Day
Liza Deischer: hi everyone
Eos Amaterasu: purple seems to be today's color :-)
Bertram Jacobus: hey lisa ! :-)
Wol Euler: hello liza
Agatha Macbeth: Hello Liza
Fefonz Quan: hi Lisa
Alfred Kelberry: fef, neurologists say that we construct new memories every time we think of the past. which also corresponds to the concept of impermanence in buddhism :)
Fefonz Quan: yes, but that's why i brought out documents, pictures etc. and not memories.
Freud Jungsten: Please expand on that Alfred.
Eos Amaterasu: I have memories that I know are memories of memories
Wol Euler: but the documents prove nothing to anyone but you :)
Wol Euler: because they match your memories
Fefonz Quan: well, my class mates have them too
Alfred Kelberry: fef, and these documents brought memories :)
Eos Amaterasu: "there's nothing you can see that isn't shown" / there's nothing outside experience of it
Bertram Jacobus: i´ll leave - ty for the chat ! and may all beings be happy plz (!) ...
Eos Amaterasu: will do :-)
Wol Euler: bye bert. take care
Fefonz Quan: and lately those class mates arranged a class reunion - so there are real actions happening inspired by the past, not just my fluid memories
Agatha Macbeth: Be happy plz Berti :)
Fefonz Quan: bye Bert
Wol Euler smiles. I'm playing devil's advocate, and I should stop it. Because I tend to agree, really.
Bertram Jacobus: ty all again ... :-)
Alfred Kelberry: fef, inspired by the memories of the past :)
Eos Amaterasu mutters to himself, Fefonz has real class mates?
Agatha Macbeth: Sympathy for the devil....
Wol Euler: I've noticed that peope who don't believe in time still have insurance and contribute to pension funds.
Eos Amaterasu: though you _think_ you're in a play, you are anyway
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Agatha Macbeth grins
Fefonz Quan: well, maybe they do believe in the future, but not the past :)
Eos Amaterasu: going meta on time doesn't make time crawl, stop, or speed up
Agatha Macbeth: That's cheating!
Fefonz Quan: going meta on time?
Freud Jungsten: So how is this question relivent?
Freud Jungsten: What will you do differently if you find out the past does not actually exsist, but everyone stil thinks it does.
Eos Amaterasu: going time beyond time (such as eternity or the 4th moment) is going meta on time, so to speak
Fefonz Quan: it is relevant for me, because sometimes I practice 'timelessness' ponit of view (very clumzy phrasing, sorry)
Eos Amaterasu: ah, let's do that!~
Eos Amaterasu: 90 secs coming up :-)
Wol Euler: okay
Wol Euler: that's just long enough :)
Agatha Macbeth waves to 90 secs
Freud Jungsten: Can you tell me more about that please?
Fefonz Quan: can you give short instructions :)?
Eos Amaterasu: [13:56] Fefonz Quan: it is relevant for me, because sometimes I practice 'timelessness' ponit of view
Eos Amaterasu: can u say more?
Fefonz Quan: like the exercize - "see yourself in the past, that contemplate your future, then - drop the past, then drop the future (and pema adds - then drop the present too))
Fefonz Quan: "
Eos Amaterasu: okay, that's great!
Eos Amaterasu: Wol will keep time :-)
Liza Deischer: so do I
Wol Euler grins
Liza Deischer: .
--BELL--
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye everyone
Agatha Macbeth: (/me waves to Yaku)
Wol Euler: bing bong bang bong, bong bang bing bong!
Agatha Macbeth: Big Ben?
Liza Deischer: :)
Wol Euler: :)
Eos Amaterasu: (Wol was using iPhone church bells as timer on retreat)
Liza Deischer: and now 11 times Wol:)
Wol Euler: yep :)
Agatha Macbeth: OMG
Fefonz Quan: Well, for me, it was quite dificult. trying to drop the past seemed like tring to run away from your shadow
Agatha Macbeth: The bells made me deaf you know
Liza Deischer: every 15 minutes?
Liza Deischer: or only to make yu aware of dinner being served ?
Eos Amaterasu: How about, when you notice the past notice that you've noticed, which means you've already dropped
Agatha Macbeth: Thought that was a gong?
Liza Deischer: not so sure
Eos Amaterasu: One way to experience that is to exaggerate it: try to really really hold on to.... anything
Fefonz Quan: it just floats up in front of me
Liza Deischer: but then you will see you will forget about time a lot
Liza Deischer: there is no clock ticking in our heads
Fefonz Quan: dropping the past seems like dropping my identity
Wol Euler: only if yo think you are defined by what you used to be :)
Liza Deischer: that seems to be one of the problems yes
Fefonz Quan: it's like dying?
Liza Deischer: to me it is
Liza Deischer: the question is, what is wrong or bad about dying
Agatha Macbeth: Probably nothing
Fefonz Quan: this is another question
Liza Deischer: it creates new space
Liza Deischer: new time
Fefonz Quan: tell that to your young children
Liza Deischer: and somehow we seem to 'miss' something
Wol Euler ponders. I wonder why I see that differently, what exctly is different about it.
Fefonz Quan: please say more Wol
Eos Amaterasu listens
Liza Deischer is wondering togehter with Wol
Wol Euler: I'm looking for the reason :)
Wol Euler: I think it's about the concept of dropping.
Wol Euler: When I think of dropping my past, I think about dropping my attachment to my opinions about what as good or bad
Wol Euler: not about throwing away what happened.
Wol Euler: I don't say to myself, "that year was awful" and discard it forever.
Archmage Atlantis: That is clearly said Wol
Agatha Macbeth: Annus horriblis
Fefonz Quan: hmmm, i didn't title any good or bad about it
Liza Deischer: true, but identity is often 'holding on to concepts about yourself'
Wol Euler ponders.
Eos Amaterasu: which Fefonz is the real you?
Wol Euler: that would be fine, I think, if your concept matched to reality at all steps
Liza Deischer: actually is identity no more then the way, a door, with which you communicate with the world
Wol Euler: but so often they don't, because our wishes and our fears colour both our memories and our hopes
Liza Deischer: but we think we are that door
Liza Deischer: sometimes :)
Liza Deischer: often probably :)
Liza Deischer: I do
Fefonz Quan: the one that can remembers all these past events, and that was in a way shaped by them?
Eos Amaterasu: all these emotions of our keep holding us from giving our lives to a rainbow of being (Jimi paraphrase)
Liza Deischer: hmm that brings up the question of what reality is
Fefonz Quan: well, we like emotions, don't we? :)
Liza Deischer: I sure do, especially the nice ones :)
Agatha Macbeth: *some* emotions Fonz :)
Eos Amaterasu: like is an emotion.... we can't do without them, or with them :-)
Wol Euler: dropping the past doesn't mean rejecting it. It does mean refusing to let it control you.
Fefonz Quan: yes wol, but that is a kind of 'psychological dropping'
Wol Euler listens
Eos Amaterasu: but sometimes emotions are totally "overtaking" you, and best you can do is give in and witness, without pushing further
Fefonz Quan: this sense is more clear and less radical i'd say
Liza Deischer: the question is, what is still there after you dy
Liza Deischer: die
Eos Amaterasu: who is there to watch?
Wol Euler hears an echo of Eos's soft voice in her ears, and smiles.
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Liza Deischer: is reality still ther as we percieve it now?
Fefonz Quan: the source of all the watching i've seen so far
Eos Amaterasu ponders you dying, Being dying...
Wol Euler: heh
Wol Euler: that could be a theme session topic.
Fefonz Quan: (or other answer to eos - i don't know who's there, but it's the same one that was there a minute ago)
Liza Deischer: it is a contemplation in Buddhism
--BELL--
Eos Amaterasu: (eos must go)
Agatha Macbeth: (Bye Eos)
Fefonz Quan: (bye eos, thatnks for the conversation)
Wol Euler: bye eos
Liza Deischer: both are contemplations in Buddhism :)
Liza Deischer: contemplation-exercises
Fefonz Quan: Liza - i intentionaly tried to avoid the point of after death issue... it's a heavy one
Agatha Macbeth: Not to mention an unknowable one
Fefonz Quan: and in a way we can contemplate things right now, not speculate about what happens then
Liza Deischer: yes I understand, felt that when putting it forwafd
Liza Deischer: but at the same time it does make things more ........close i guess
Liza Deischer: but maybe I overstepped the line here
Liza Deischer: if so, sorry
Fefonz Quan: maybe when we fully realize what we are now, we'll have the answer to them :) (Fef being optimistic)
Agatha Macbeth: Tu fui ego eris
Fefonz Quan: no, no line issues liza, just thought ithe question in hand is complicated enough...
Wol Euler: my dears, I hate to leave in the middle of a fascinating convesation, but I must. Goodnight all, take care.
Liza Deischer: bye Wol :)
Agatha Macbeth waves to Wol
Archmage Atlantis: Ty you all, it has been informative today....bye for now :)
Fefonz Quan: night Wol, good seeing you.
Wol Euler: bye!
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Arch
Liza Deischer: bye Arch
Fefonz Quan: (Agatha - translation?)
Liza Deischer: yes, I came in late
Agatha Macbeth: What I am you will be
Agatha Macbeth: Or something like that
Liza Deischer: and maybe didn't connect well :)
Liza Deischer: I'm not typing
Fefonz Quan: ah, nice :)
Fefonz Quan: bye Arch
Fefonz Quan: I'll go to sleep too. bye all!
Agatha Macbeth: Bye for now folks, be purple and happy...
Liza Deischer: bye Agatha
Liza Deischer: bye Fonz
Fefonz Quan: bye Aga
Liza Deischer: bye Freud
Fefonz Quan: good night _/!\_
Liza Deischer: nie
Liza Deischer: nite
Freud Jungsten: do na da go hv i