2010.10.02 13:00 - To Control, Or Not to Control

The Guardian for this meeting was Aphrodite Macbain. The comments are by Aphrodite Macbain.

Aphrodite Macbain: Hello Shunyata
Shunyata Enchanted: Hello
--BELL--
Aphrodite Macbain: Have you been here before?
Shunyata Enchanted: once
Aphrodite Macbain: Do you know that your comments are recorded if you speak?
Shunyata Enchanted: Yes
Aphrodite Macbain: and you don't mind? 
Shunyata Enchanted: No
Aphrodite Macbain: Great. Thanks.
Shunyata Enchanted: Will others show up soon?
Qt Core: Hi all
Shunyata Enchanted: HI
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes, here comes QT

Roman Holidays, colds and the changing weather

Qt Core: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi QTcomo stai?
Qt Core: Bene, grazie, tu ?
Aphrodite Macbain: Sono malata.
Aphrodite Macbain: I have a cold :-(
Aphrodite Macbain: and I leave for Rome in 2 days.
Qt Core: this sudden summer end got many
Aphrodite Macbain: Hello Alfred, good to see you
Qt Core: hi Alfred
Alfred Kelberry: *gives aph a health boost hug* :)
Alfred Kelberry: oi :)
Alfred Kelberry: qt the spicy man
Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks Aldfred. That feels better already. Hugs and green tea - work every time
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Alfred Kelberry: um, don't think i've seen you, shun
Shunyata Enchanted: Only been here once before
Aphrodite Macbain: How is everyone feeling about the days getting shorter and cooler?
Alfred Kelberry: ok, welcome then :)
Alfred Kelberry: I feel fine :)
Shunyata Enchanted: It was a hot summer, so I am enjoying cooler weather.
Aphrodite Macbain: where do you live Shunyata?
Shunyata Enchanted: Minnesota, USA
Qt Core: it is just right for the time passing, but i think we are going to have some warm days again (like today at about 24)
Aphrodite Macbain: That's good! Rome will be even warmer!
Alfred Kelberry: wait, aph, was it you who wanted to see a movie the other day?
Qt Core: and many think october is one of the best time to be in Rome too
Aphrodite Macbain: ummm - I can't remember Alfred
Aphrodite Macbain: Not too hot but I can sit outside in the Piazza Navona and sip my espresso!
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Alfred Kelberry: on vacation?
Aphrodite Macbain: yes. 2 wks in Italy - Umbria and Rome
Alfred Kelberry: neat
Aphrodite Macbain: very. I've spent 4 months imagining 2 weeks!
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Imagined time is richer and gets to the heart of things
Alfred Kelberry: it'll be good to have you back with stories :)
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Alfred Kelberry: remembered time is not less richer :)
Aphrodite Macbain: I am taking my mini lap top with me so I may pop in from time to time provided the technology allows it
Alfred Kelberry: these 2 weeks will stay with you for many years... right there in your heart and mind :)
Alfred Kelberry: oh, that's great!
Alfred Kelberry: please, pop in and say hello from italy :)
Aphrodite Macbain: right alfred. I will
Alfred Kelberry: i see an intruder approaching!
Alfred Kelberry: zen! :)
Aphrodite Macbain: an intruder!? he he
Alfred Kelberry: hehe
Qt Core: Hi Zen
Zen Arado: oi Alf :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Zen
Zen Arado: Hi All
 

Mini map and it's values

Alfred Kelberry: i've been folowing you on the map, zen :)
Alfred Kelberry: little green dot
Aphrodite Macbain: has he been moving around?
Zen Arado: I do that too
Alfred Kelberry: yep :)
Zen Arado: only from my rez spot
Aphrodite Macbain: I don't have enough room on my screen
Alfred Kelberry: aph, it's a mini map
Alfred Kelberry: doesn't take much space
Zen Arado: you don't have it in viewer 2 I think
Alfred Kelberry: another dot is on the move :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Oh that one. I hardly use it. Maybe I should.
Alfred Kelberry: zen, there is
Qt Core: there is it in v2 too
Alfred Kelberry: aph, it's handy
Alfred Kelberry: oi, stev :)
Zen Arado: a mini map?
Alfred Kelberry: yes
--BELL--
Zen Arado: I couldn't find one
Aphrodite Macbain: for what - spotting intruders?
Alfred Kelberry: ctrl-shift-m
Alfred Kelberry: yes, like zen :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Peace
Qt Core: it is useful even when others aren't rezzed yet, you still got to see where they are and, if zooming enough, you can even navigate around people without seeing them yet
Alfred Kelberry: right, qt
Qt Core: the only things it lacks is telling if others are above or below you, not just "at another level"
Zen Arado: they should tell people about that feature
Aphrodite Macbain: There are still so many things to learn in SL I didn't even realize that KIRA was up in the sky till I tried to find it one day
Alfred Kelberry: aww, so cute :)
Aphrodite Macbain: I could see it on the world map but couldn't get to it
stevenaia Michinaga: I thought when they are not a circular "dot" it means they are on a different level
Aphrodite Macbain: chevrons
Qt Core: yes, steve, but up or down ?
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, didn't know what to call that shape, thanks
Alfred Kelberry: qt, i think it's classified :)
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
stevenaia Michinaga: oh, yes, up or down
Aphrodite Macbain: I think they are seen as chevrons if there up
stevenaia Michinaga: always assume up
Aphrodite Macbain: yes. keep positive!
Aphrodite Macbain: BTW Hi steve
Zen Arado: Hi Steve
Alfred Kelberry: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: smiles, thx
Aphrodite Macbain: I tried to get into Kira from up in the air but it was next to impossible. Then I clicked on a chair and whoosh there I was!
Zen Arado: Hi Ara :)
Qt Core: Hi Ara
Aphrodite Macbain: Hello arabella
arabella Ella: Hiya everyone!
Alfred Kelberry: ara :)
arabella Ella: Hey Alfie why are you still a cloud?
arabella Ella: cant see you properly
Alfred Kelberry: um, not sure
stevenaia Michinaga: alf's not a cloud to me
Shunyata Enchanted: nor me
Alfred Kelberry: stealth mode is off :)
Qt Core: nor me
arabella Ella: must be my system then maybe not rezzed
Aphrodite Macbain: No, Alfred is very boxy and solid
Alfred Kelberry: hehe
arabella Ella: very stealth-y to me
Aphrodite Macbain: What would people like to talk about?
Aphrodite Macbain: Is there a burning issue?
arabella Ella thinks
Zen Arado: we have to talk?
Alfred Kelberry: aph, do you have a flight feather?
stevenaia Michinaga: smiles
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes- Steve just gave me one. I'm looking forward to trying it out
Alfred Kelberry: ah, ok :)
arabella Ella: do you have a topic to suggest Aph?
Aphrodite Macbain: This is where SL works its miracles
Zen Arado: handy for skyboxes

Change and whether we can make or prevent it

Aphrodite Macbain: well -was thinking about change and how we handle it. But it's a big subject. Change of weather to change of states (birth/death)
Zen Arado: :)
arabella Ella: interesting topic
stevenaia Michinaga: or when is change not change
Zen Arado: it's all change
Aphrodite Macbain: I'm watching the season change, a beautiful time of year, but I'm aware a friend is dying far away in a Toronto hospital
arabella Ella: when the change is handed back to you in notes?
Aphrodite Macbain: I want to cling on to "now"
Zen Arado: the problem is when we don't want change
Aphrodite Macbain: ;-) arabella
Shunyata Enchanted: Wanting...many want to...but there is no way to cling onto it.
Alfred Kelberry: aph... yes, bittersweet
Aphrodite Macbain: It's that powerlessness thing again
Shunyata Enchanted: It is only a problem when you want to be powerful
Alfred Kelberry: shun :)
arabella Ella: i think she means she wants to be her own 'agent' for action but is powerless
Aphrodite Macbain: for me it's not wanting to be powerful but in control of the situation
Aphrodite Macbain: yes arabella
Aphrodite Macbain: like king canute stopping the tide
Zen Arado: illusions of control
Shunyata Enchanted: Yes, control is an illusion
--BELL--
Aphrodite Macbain: yes.
Zen Arado: Hi Bert :)
arabella Ella: Hiya Bert!
Qt Core: knowing you can't, usually wont stop you from wanting (whatever the subject :) )
Qt Core: hi bert
Bertram Jacobus: hello everybody :-)
Aphrodite Macbain: Bertram - good to see you
arabella Ella: sounds a bit like wishful thinking too to me
Aphrodite Macbain: Glad you're inspired Bertram.
Shunyata Enchanted: Deeply realizing you can't , will stop you from wanting
Qt Core: yes, that was the "usually" part ;-)
Zen Arado: see through the illusion
Shunyata Enchanted: see through it so thoroughly that the illusion no longer fools you
arabella Ella: isn't it more the case of embracing change whether it is good or bad or neutral?
Aphrodite Macbain: the challenge of removing the dependency without loosing the caring
Bertram Jacobus winks at aph :-)
Aphrodite Macbain: /aph winks back at bert
Aphrodite Macbain also winks back
Zen Arado: acceptance and no resistance
Bertram Jacobus giggles silently ... :-)
Aphrodite Macbain: we need so much strength to accept
Aphrodite Macbain: it also helps to giggle
Zen Arado: more like abandoning strength?
Shunyata Enchanted: Do you need strength to accept? Will not accepting change what is?
Zen Arado: and having a giggle :)
arabella Ella: it sounds like a heart breaking situation
Zen Arado: strength implies resistance maybe?
Aphrodite Macbain: hmmm. no. I think I need my strength to act appropriately
Shunyata Enchanted: It is effortless...effort is needed to resist what is
Zen Arado: accepting the situation fully
Shunyata Enchanted: Surrendering to what is, fully
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes. But don't you think that acceptance requires strength?
arabella Ella: of course you need your strength
stevenaia Michinaga: since you cannot change the situation, acceptance may be the most satisfying
Zen Arado: in a way I suppose
Bertram Jacobus associates the songtitle from santana : "love, devotion and surrender" ...
Aphrodite Macbain: otherwise we'd be all wishy washy with no direction, no resolve..
Shunyata Enchanted: why
Zen Arado: I used to think there would be too much passivity in this kind of behaviour
Aphrodite Macbain: no resistance could mean blindly following all your passions - jealousy, anger, etc
Zen Arado: you will usually choose the best option from what comes up though
Qt Core: Hi Selene
Aphrodite Macbain: best for whom?
Zen Arado: In fact you can't help doing that
Aphrodite Macbain: Hello Selene. welcome
Zen Arado: Hi Selene
Shunyata Enchanted: Hi
Zen Arado: for everyone
Bertram Jacobus: "may i have the gift to be able to act when i can do so and to accept when i cant. and may i have the gift of being able to see, which of those situations is given" ...
Zen Arado: I think anyway
Selene Northman: Hi Zen, hi everyone :)
Bertram Jacobus: heyy selene :-)
Qt Core: i seem to have chat lag tonight, i'm not writing novels
Zen Arado: I'm only thinking out loud Aphro
Selene Northman: hi Bertram :-)
Aphrodite Macbain: know when to hold 'em, when to fold 'em and when to walk away
Aphrodite Macbain: well -you get th drift...
stevenaia Michinaga: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVXVMGHsMHk
Zen Arado: and the knowing comes naturally
Aphrodite Macbain: what's that steve?
Aphrodite Macbain: do you think so Zen? Isn't knowledge learned, constructed?
stevenaia Michinaga: love devotion and surrender
Zen Arado: and Rubeeee - don't take your love to town ....:)
Bertram Jacobus: aarghs ! ;o) - we are not allowed to see it in germany because sony forbids that steve (!) :-(
Shunyata Enchanted: intuition is beyond knowledge and the mind
Aphrodite Macbain: he he
Shunyata Enchanted: It comes from being
Zen Arado: yes - but how much of it is under our control?
stevenaia Michinaga: sorry Bert
Zen Arado: it is what just happened in our life
Zen Arado: we were shaped by destiny - like that phrase :)
Bertram Jacobus: You didn't  have to say sorry for that steve (!) on the contrary : ty ...
Aphrodite Macbain: don't you think life does more than "happen" to us?
Shunyata Enchanted: change is inevitable...there is no use in resisting it
Zen Arado: like - why can't I just sit and keep quiet?
Zen Arado: why do I have a compulsion to talk so much ?
Aphrodite Macbain: some things can and mus be changed - like slavery, racism, women's rights, poverty, wars
Bertram Jacobus: found it here for germany - (also for selene, without video, only pictures) ...
Bertram Jacobus: http://facebookvideoindir.me/carlos-...surrender.html
--BELL--
Selene Northman: well you can, but even this is an action and causes change, Zen
Aphrodite Macbain: we can't just sit on our butts and watch the world go by.
Zen Arado: but they can only be changed when the time is right
Zen Arado: slavery lasted over 300 years
Aphrodite Macbain: Pause...
arabella Ella: hiya
Aphrodite Macbain: Things are changed by people
Zen Arado: sorry for talking during break Aph
Selene Northman: hi Arabella :)
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Zen Arado: wb Ara
Bertram Jacobus: wb ara ! :-)
Shunyata Enchanted: Yes, but change cannot be stopped by people
arabella Ella: ty :)
Aphrodite Macbain: we all do. it's easy to Zen!
Aphrodite Macbain: I think some changes can be stopped. That's what democracy is for.
Zen Arado: but your voice would not be heard until society is ready for the change
Bertram Jacobus: i think, it´s unclear what can be changed and what not, what is illusion and what not ...
Shunyata Enchanted: Nothing lasts forever....change is inevitable
Bertram Jacobus: we can try and do so as if something would be possible at least - and i think, normally - we act ...
Zen Arado: we wouldn't even think about changing something until a certain time...
arabella Ella: but surely if we are in an unjust or wrong situation we ought to do our best to change it to make the world a better place?
Aphrodite Macbain: yes arabella

Aphrodite Macbain: timing is important, but I'm not going to wait around for the change I want  to happen, but to help create an environment when the change I want can happen
Aphrodite Macbain: no point in being apathetic
Zen Arado: maybe we don't see it as unjust until a certain time Ara
arabella Ella: like bullied kids, battered people, etc
Zen Arado: like women's rights
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: have to start somewhere
arabella Ella: yes take the vote for women for example
Shunyata Enchanted: For everything there is a time and season
Qt Core: but then who knows if you "have" to be the spark that will start something ?
Zen Arado: 'cometh the hour cometh the man...
Aphrodite Macbain: and the time is now
Zen Arado: and that is even sexist
arabella Ella: LOL ... it sure is
Zen Arado: if you were the person who would initiate change could you stop yourself?
Aphrodite Macbain: depends
Aphrodite Macbain: on how I would begin
Zen Arado: the urge would be too strong
Aphrodite Macbain: I would start by listening to others, looking at the picture from others' perspectives
Zen Arado: thinking of a silly example - John Connor in Terminator.:)
Aphrodite Macbain: change is a collaborative affair

arabella Ella: depends what sort of change
Aphrodite Macbain: never saw Terminaor
Aphrodite Macbain: what happened?
Zen Arado: great men would accomplish little without their wife backing them up in the past..
arabella Ella: ah ... then there should be a wife for every male and female on the planet Zen
Zen Arado: it's as if he was destined to save humanity
Aphrodite Macbain: behind every great man is a woman working her fingers to the bone...
Zen Arado: but it was a silly movie
Zen Arado: true
Zen Arado: but we are all so dependent on others
Aphrodite Macbain: yes, we have to be realistic when we try and make change happen.
Zen Arado: so causes intersect until some great change occurs
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, actions should be effective
Aphrodite Macbain: A lot of bad is done with the best of intentions
Aphrodite Macbain: On my tombstone should be written "She meant well"
Zen Arado: it isn't so easy to know what is good or bad sometimes
Shunyata Enchanted: and what change to make...there is an old saying that goes 'the right means by the wrong person gets wrong results"
Zen Arado: in the long run
Zen Arado: yes
arabella Ella: gtg good night everyone!
Qt Core: 'night ara
Zen Arado: nie Ara
Bertram Jacobus: gn ara ! ...
Selene Northman: gn ara
Zen Arado: Ara was destined to go
Aphrodite Macbain: ara had to go because she decided to
stevenaia Michinaga: her decision, our destiny
Aphrodite Macbain: yes. nicely put. the worlds' decisions, our destiny

Zen Arado: you know the old story about good and bad ?
stevenaia Michinaga: listens
Aphrodite Macbain: yes Zen?
Bertram Jacobus: no. tell me please zen !? :-)
Zen Arado: There is a Taoist story of an old farmer who had worked his crops for many years. One day his horse ran away. Upon hearing the news, his neighbors came to visit.  Such bad luck they said sympathetically. Maybe,the farmer replied. The next morning the horse returned, bringing with it three other wild horses. How wonderful,the neighbors exclaimed. Maybe, replied the old man. The following day, his son tried to ride one of the untamed horses, was thrown, and broke his leg. The neighbors again came to offer their sympathy on his misfortune. Maybe, answered the farmer. The day after, military officials came to the village to draft young men into the army. Seeing that the son's leg was broken, they passed him by. The neighbors congratulated the farmer on how well things had turned out. Maybe, said the farmer.
Aphrodite Macbain: nice
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Zen Arado: best thing to change is yourself
--BELL--
Shunyata Enchanted: what can be changed is not yourself
Aphrodite Macbain: we seem to speak in quotable aphorisms
stevenaia Michinaga: or setting the stage for a debate
Aphrodite Macbain: I will now bid you all farewell. Thank you for an excellent disussion
Zen Arado: can you elaborate Shunyata?
Bertram Jacobus: bye aph have a great time
Zen Arado: bye Aphroo

Of gold, emptiness and bananas

stevenaia Michinaga: bye Aphrodite
Shunyata Enchanted: A certain quantity of gold is used to make a fork, then a ring - what changed but the forms.
Qt Core: bye Aphro
Shunyata Enchanted: Forms come after...are acquired.
Zen Arado: ok - getting caught in words I am
Zen Arado: form is emptiness as they say
Shunyata Enchanted: Yes
Shunyata Enchanted: Can emptiness be changed?
Zen Arado: emptiness is change
Shunyata Enchanted: What changes?
Selene Northman: emptiness is a state
Zen Arado: change changes :)
Zen Arado: HI Bruce
Zen Arado: it's indescribable
Bruce Mowbray: Hello, everyone. Please continue with your discussion. . .
Selene Northman: Hi Bruce :)
Bertram Jacobus: hey bruce ! :-)
Qt Core: Hi Bruce
Bertram Jacobus: Day-o, me say daaay-o~
Shunyata Enchanted: day light come and I wanna go home
Bruce Mowbray thinks: Wow! (love bananas).
Bertram Jacobus: :-)
Bertram Jacobus: Day-o, me say daaay-o~
Bruce Mowbray also love Pink Floyd -- and Noob Mind Beginners Mind.
Zen Arado: :)
Bertram Jacobus giggles ... sry ... :o)
Zen Arado: and Non Duality teaching?
Shunyata Enchanted: what about it?
Zen Arado: reading a lot of it atm
Zen Arado: Nisargadatta
Shunyata Enchanted: I prefer Ramana Maharshi
Zen Arado: haven't got to him yet
Zen Arado: reading Sailor Bob too :)
Bertram Jacobus: i learned my first meditation method at maharishi
Zen Arado: it's all the same message underneath though I think
Zen Arado: maybe just different ways of teaching it
Shunyata Enchanted: Yes...slightly different pointers or verbology
Zen Arado: yes Bert?
Zen Arado: and practices
--BELL--

Practicing our practice - being That
Bertram Jacobus: i only noticed the names Zen : nisargadatta, ramana maharshi, maharishi mahes yogi ...
Shunyata Enchanted: Nonduality really doesn't have practices...for who/what is practicing
Bertram Jacobus: and wanted to agree in a way : different ways , explanations, angles ...
Zen Arado: is talking to a guru a practice?
Shunyata Enchanted: No
Shunyata Enchanted: Unles you make it one
Zen Arado: like the way Nisargatta strips away people's concepts
Bertram Jacobus: may be people have different understandings of the meaning of the word "practice"
Zen Arado: there is no one to practice I guess
Shunyata Enchanted: and no where to get to
Shunyata Enchanted: and nothing to attain
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: we are here already
Bertram Jacobus: but we can play
Shunyata Enchanted: tat tvam asi
Zen Arado: ?
Shunyata Enchanted: You are That
Selene Northman: at least we can play ;)
Bertram Jacobus: i agree selene :-)
Zen Arado: I am that - as Nisargadatta says
Shunyata Enchanted: all there is....is play
Zen Arado: agree:)
Zen Arado: do you go to Urban Guru Cafe Shunyata?
stevenaia Michinaga: bye all
stevenaia Michinaga: bye
Shunyata Enchanted: not really...though I know about them
Zen Arado: bye Steve
Qt Core: bye steve
Shunyata Enchanted: bye
Selene Northman: bye stev :)
Bertram Jacobus: bye steve ! *wave* ...
Bruce Mowbray: Be well and happy, steve.
Zen Arado: I joined but haven't been there yet
Zen Arado: might try it tomorrow
Shunyata Enchanted: if you wanted to check out a podcast series - go to http://www.awaken2life.org/podcast-more-oom.html
Zen Arado: ok thanks
Shunyata Enchanted: 77 fifteen minute episodes
Shunyata Enchanted: Here is a video about Ramana Maharshi = http://www.awaken2life.org/web-links...the-selfq.html
Qt Core: time to go, bye all
Bruce Mowbray: Be well, Qt.
Bertram Jacobus: bye qt - cu - have a good time plz ! *wave*
Zen Arado: bye Qt
Bruce Mowbray ponders why his avi did the muscle pose instead of the Banana Boat animation.
Zen Arado: thanks Shun
Bruce Mowbray: Day-o, me say daaay-o~
Bertram Jacobus: lol :-))
Zen Arado: :)
Bruce Mowbray -- just trying it out. . . No intention to side-track the discussion. Please continue.
Bertram Jacobus: the thing with these so called "gestures" is, that the first time always they must be loaded and so only from the second time playing them they are "perfect" sadly ... ;o)
Bruce Mowbray: ok. Thanks, Bert -- and thanks for the animation, too!
Bertram Jacobus: yw bruce :-)
Shunyata Enchanted: Oops, try this link instead http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...80pmUCA&hl=en#
Bertram Jacobus: and that is again and again like said before (with those loadings) - after every log in ...
Zen Arado: ok
Shunyata Enchanted: And there is Awaken to the Eternal by Nisargadatta - http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...O2tj3Bw&hl=en#
Shunyata Enchanted: a couple of my favorite videos....
Zen Arado: I am investigating non duality teachings
--BELL--
Zen Arado: doesn't mean I will stay on that path.....
Bertram Jacobus: I'll leave now - ty for the talk !
Zen Arado: ty Bert bye
Bruce Mowbray: Be well, Bert. And thanks again!
Bertram Jacobus: may all beings be happy plz !
Shunyata Enchanted: bye
Selene Northman: bye all, and a pleasant day :)
Bruce Mowbray: Be well, Selene.
Zen Arado: I'll have to go too
Bruce Mowbray: Be well, Zen.
Zen Arado: bye all and thanks for discussion
Shunyata Enchanted: me too
Bruce Mowbray: be well, Shunyata!
Shunyata Enchanted: bye