2010.10.17 19:00 - Awareness, Considered

The Guardian for this meeting was Calvino Rabeni. The comments are by Calvino Rabeni.

Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hi Calvino ... quiet evening so far?
Calvino Rabeni: So far at Play as Being yes
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I see ... but otherise ...
Calvino Rabeni: meanwhile, behind the scenes ... ?
Calvino Rabeni: We may be graced by a glimpse of Paradise
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Ahhh ... a fresh breeze of delight
Calvino Rabeni: We're confronted with the usual existential question .. what to import to "here", what to leave behind, .. and the opposite too, what we don't want to import but can't help and would like to import but don't seem able ...
Calvino Rabeni: Does that about cover it? :)
Calvino Rabeni smiles at Paradise
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Do you mean - import from our so-called "Real Life" to this "Second Life" ... or, a different meaning?
Paradise Tennant: smiles hiya mitzi cal :) gtsy :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Ciao Bella
Calvino Rabeni: yes I meant that
Paradise Tennant: one of the most engaging aspects of sl is how you express yourself in sl your real self well that gets confusing too :)
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Calvino Rabeni: For example, there's a great deal of rather choice gossip, we choose not to import
Paradise Tennant: or we go back to the things we liked as kids .. the colour purple and mermaids :)
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: We could do that ... I'm not sure what our values are on childhood regressions. But as long as you've brought it up, why not?
Paradise Tennant: or green :)
Calvino Rabeni: No doubt certain things were put into motion then...
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Calvino Rabeni: that are still rolling on one way or another
Paradise Tennant: do not think you should ever let go of some aspects of childhood ..wonder the spontaneous element of joy ..
Calvino Rabeni: Young minds are so impressionable
Mitzi Mimistrobell: The fact that this environment is different, and we can control our appearance and words more than in RL, creates new opportunities for self-definition.
Mitzi Mimistrobell: It allows us to play with different modes of expressing ourselves.
Calvino Rabeni: Well costumes are cheaper
Calvino Rabeni: but in RL we can probably do more ... just ask an actor
Paradise Tennant: hmm I go with whatever makes me smile :)
Paradise Tennant: love the flowers ... the shiny things :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Originally I wanted to have a whole stable of avatars with different personalities. Mitzi is the only one so far. I gave her a specific personality and style; yet my RL self seems to come thru rather strongly in spite of Mitzi's own nature ...
Calvino Rabeni: I was talking to a friend today about that choice
Paradise Tennant: hmm I have never created an alt
Calvino Rabeni: the phrase "shiny objects" has a certain currency these days
Paradise Tennant: call them shiny moments at work
Paradise Tennant: when I want a brief brain stretch will google earth bali or lake como :)
Paradise Tennant: or look something up I do not know or have never heard of
Paradise Tennant: I think our real selves come through in sl very clearly
Calvino Rabeni: So, you can be whatever you want ... a whole fresh green field to replant ... starting with a tabula rasa
Paradise Tennant: they are expressed by the choices you make
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Calvino Rabeni: Or not, depending on what we believe about human nature
Paradise Tennant: do not think we stray that far really
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I am inspired by your "shiny moments" at work idea
Paradise Tennant: hmm they really work
Paradise Tennant: travel sites are good one too ..just knowing you can get on a cheap flight to rome if you really wanted to .. just makes the day brighter :)
Paradise Tennant: when I was sick my dad would take out the maps and the guide books and we would .. plan road trips ... same idea really
Paradise Tennant: brief excursions
Calvino Rabeni: That's charming to hear about
Paradise Tennant: he was a charming uniquely wonderful person :) I was blessed
Paradise Tennant: you know we are all blessed :)
Paradise Tennant: a matter of perception
Calvino Rabeni nods, letting that idea work
Paradise Tennant: appreciation .. divining our grace :)
Calvino Rabeni: It seems to me that's one of the many answers to "what good is mindfulness"
Paradise Tennant: be right back have to stir the jam
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I like that topic "what is mindfulness"
Calvino Rabeni: That's the current topic in the Ways of Knowing workshop
Paradise Tennant: listens
Calvino Rabeni: Here's a quote from one of the readings
Calvino Rabeni: The Buddha and the original people who practiced this saw mindfulness as a concrete, almost physical location in the mind and in the heart, a place of craft where you could do some work. Roll up your sleeves and do some work. We have no concept in our cultural life of the craft of working with the mind and heart as if it were actually "stuff." But that is exactly the sense of it. To work with the mind and heart is something very practical, very grounded, very real. It is touchable, concrete, and located in a place.
Calvino Rabeni: so
Calvino Rabeni: somehow later it became abstract ...
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: That quote ended at "located in a place"
Mitzi Mimistrobell: This is wonderful, Calvino. I think the idea of mindfulness as a craft opens up a whole different, more grounded way of thinking about spirituality. Not like something that just falls on you from out of the sky ... instead, something you learn, practice and gain skills within.
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, it keeps it from "someday, pie in the sky"
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I wonder which contemporary teachers approach the teaching in that way?
Paradise Tennant: nods back to the buddist concept of everyone having perfect buddha nature .. but there is a fair amount of work to uncovering .. removing the obscurations :)
Paradise Tennant: shining our foggy mirrors is the common metaphor )
Calvino Rabeni: The quote was form Norman Fischer on the "Everyday Zen" web site
Paradise Tennant: nods
Calvino Rabeni: http://www.everydayzen.org/index.php?option=com_teaching&task=showTeachings&topic=Meditation%20and%20Mindfulness&Itemid=26
stevenaia Michinaga: greetings
Paradise Tennant: hiya steve gtsy :)
Calvino Rabeni: I was talking to a friend about the metaphors we'd heard for "ego" (if you believe there actually is such a thing)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Stevenaia ... nice to have your presence here around this lovely fountain.
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Calvino Rabeni: Those metaphors express a belief system
stevenaia Michinaga: thank you
stevenaia Michinaga: happy to be here
Calvino Rabeni: Hi Stevenaia :)
Paradise Tennant: oh I firmly believe it exists .. I keep butting heads with my own ego on a daily basis :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Oh Steve ... you're outshining Paradise ...
Calvino Rabeni: The one I rather liked was - one's ego is like a "little donkey" - it's a helpful beast that will do things for you, but it
stevenaia Michinaga: dificult to do
Paradise Tennant: smiles ..a very big smile :)
Calvino Rabeni: is better to ride it than have it ride you
Paradise Tennant: stevenaia is a vision of colour and light :)))
stevenaia Michinaga: smiles
Calvino Rabeni: I liked the metaphor better than (1) a raging bull elephant, and (2) a little devil
stevenaia Michinaga: can someone simply define Buddah nature?
Paradise Tennant: oooo
Calvino Rabeni: Steve ups the ante :)
Paradise Tennant: smiles
stevenaia Michinaga: just nieve
Calvino Rabeni: Snow?
Paradise Tennant: well it is perfect consciousness
stevenaia Michinaga: ok, as opposed to what?
stevenaia Michinaga: isn;t all consciousness perfect?
Calvino Rabeni: So which do you like better of the following word choices for the indescribable - (1) mindfulness, (2) awareness, and (3) presence
Calvino Rabeni: (4) authenticity maybe, in the same region?
Paradise Tennant: Buddha-nature or Buddha Principle (Buddha-dh??tu), is taught, within Mahayana Buddhism, to be an intrinsic, immortal potential for reaching enlightenment that exists within the mind of every sentient being. Buddha-nature is not to be confused with the concept of Atman, or Self, but instead is viewed to be empty of defining characteristics (also see Sunyata and Nondualism).
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I don't think we can define Buddha nature very well in terms of what it *IS* - that would presume we have had an experience of that. Instead, perhaps one way to talk about it is what the story of the Buddha inspires in us - a direction to move in
stevenaia Michinaga: hmm, a nice selection, probably perfect 4
stevenaia Michinaga: nods
Paradise Tennant: likes when it is referred to as luminous mind somehow I get the picture more clearly with those words
stevenaia Michinaga: now I have a framework to listen from :)
Calvino Rabeni: So with awareness, one can for instance, notice when oneself is going into some state of identification, e.g. some kind of emotional pattern, and have some "free attention" outside it, and just possibly, make choices on that basis to change "form"
Calvino Rabeni: Or as some say, catch oneself "falling asleep"
Calvino Rabeni: Or with awareness, one can do other things which seem somewhat dubious, like try to eradicate desire and achieve some imagined transcendent state of being
Paradise Tennant: hmm
Paradise Tennant: blinking
Mitzi Mimistrobell: perhaps the attempt to achieve these ends can yield important insights, even if the original aim "fails"
Paradise Tennant: more like letting go to what is not to find what really is
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: I agred Mitzi
Calvino Rabeni: But isn't a lot of discovery based on floating imagination and seeing what flies, what interacts with reality in a useful way?
Calvino Rabeni: In tai chi practice lore there's a slogan "invest in failure"
Calvino Rabeni: I don't agree that we can create a relationship with reality by just taking things away
stevenaia Michinaga: seems the best way to learn lessons
Calvino Rabeni: although that SOUNDS easier
Calvino Rabeni: Actually, I think, it just might be needed for balance, as a temporary "affirmative action"
Calvino Rabeni: I mean the focus on dropping, detachment, stillness, silence, etc.
Calvino Rabeni: just as a counter to the automatism of modern life
Calvino Rabeni: however, impermanence means equally - things pass away - things arise
Calvino Rabeni: and if we are "one" with what's going on, we are completely implicated, in the arising also
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Any kind of experimentation is at least a positive thing ... on the other hand it seems to me that one can be more efficient by using approaches proven out by more experienced others ... and sticking with one approach for a while to give it a good go. Then, maybe, try something different with similar serious intent. And see what emerges as one's own effective synthesis.
Calvino Rabeni: When you have a culture that is harried, busy, on automatic, not feeling themselves in their depths, etc., then ... the notion of a retreat to stillness seems like a kind of deliverance
Calvino Rabeni: but only as a gesture of balance, a dialectic, anyway that's a current idea I've been entertaining
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, indeed, .... people find a refreshment that's well needed in any kind of contemplative act if they haven't done it before.
Mitzi Mimistrobell: "Gesture of Balance" - a lovely phrase. Wasn't it the title of a book by Tarthang Tulku?
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Calvino Rabeni: Well transferring of "knowledge" form experienced others might be possible and useful, but ... I suppose "consciousness" might be "transmitted" also, but it is much more ephemeral - it can't be externalized
Calvino Rabeni: Yes I think so Mitzi (about the book title)
Calvino Rabeni: Certain spiritual paths emphasize balance and wholeness principles
Paradise Tennant: is it a dream or not ...if it is a dream .. then one course is called for if we believe this life to be reality then .. it is another :)
Calvino Rabeni: Is "mindfulness" beneficial ? It would seem to depend a lot on what one does with it, andwhat "for"
Calvino Rabeni: I'm not sure what the valid distinction is between reality and dream
Calvino Rabeni: (I must be very confused ... ?)
Paradise Tennant: well the premise of buddhist thought is that are dualistic outlook is baloney
Calvino Rabeni: Suppose all this is a dream ... then what course does that seem to call for?
Paradise Tennant: *our
Paradise Tennant: dropping :)
Calvino Rabeni smiles at that word "baloney"
Paradise Tennant: stepping back
Paradise Tennant: seeing the dream
Paradise Tennant: for a dream
Calvino Rabeni: Stepping back, to ... where exactlyh
Paradise Tennant: but then reengaging and playing with the dream
Calvino Rabeni: So in our culture, "dream" is extremely ambiguous as a term
Paradise Tennant: in a way that makes you appreciate the dreamy qualities
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Calvino Rabeni: often it means "error about reality" or wrongness ... rather derogatory
Calvino Rabeni: on the other hand, someitmes it refers to exalted imagination
Calvino Rabeni: as in martin luther king's "I have a dream"
Calvino Rabeni: or other coherent acts of imagination that have power in the world
Calvino Rabeni: And one could take it as showing that the creativity of the "dreamer" is very much at work in the construction of the appearance of reality
Mitzi Mimistrobell: There is a famous teaching story from India ... a king falls asleep and has a very vivid dream
Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... where he is poor and has no food ... he gets some rice together and finally cooks it up in the forest ...
Calvino Rabeni: so it takes the "hard edge" - "can't change it" off the definition of the world
Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... then two bulls come by fighting and tread his precious hard-gained food into the dirt ...
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: Mitzi, is that the famous "Teach me what Maya means" story?
Calvino Rabeni: ... sorry, different story :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... he awakes to find himself in his gogeous bed with silk covers, servants at his beck and call ...but the dream was so real, he can't get it out of his mind.
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... So, he issues a challenge to all the wise men of the realm, explain this dream to him and get his daughter's hand in marriage or some such reward. Many wise men come ...
Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... finally one wise man says to him, "Oh, King, the reason you know the dream was a dream was that you woke up from it. This life is a dream as well, from which you have not yet awakened. They are BOTH dreams O King."
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Anyway that was the winning answer. I like that story a lot and it touches on what Cal said - step back ... to where?
Paradise Tennant: out of dualistic thought out of the dream
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Calvino Rabeni: I don't think, nondualism provides any place to step into ... that would be dualistic to have such a place?
Paradise Tennant: lol
Mitzi Mimistrobell: You could kind of think of anything that's not in the here and now as a dream ...
Calvino Rabeni: It seems perhaps equivalent to fully step INTO the dream
Paradise Tennant: smiles a very big smile
Calvino Rabeni: a dream could be lucid, or maybe just an automatism in which there is litle will
Paradise Tennant: ok to do if you remember it is a dream
Calvino Rabeni: The IDEA of a "here and now" ... what's involved in that?
Calvino Rabeni: Some people have said ... the "here and now" is outside space and outside time
Calvino Rabeni: it is not a zero-dimensional point in a geometric space/time
Calvino Rabeni: it doens't have "no information content"
Calvino Rabeni: not limited in any wayh
Mitzi Mimistrobell: maybe "here and now" pushes us into sensate reality alone ...?
Calvino Rabeni: can't be defined by exclusion of any aspect of reality
Calvino Rabeni: I think that's a good point Mitzi
Calvino Rabeni: as what it often means is body awareness
Paradise Tennant: i am peeling an orange in my dream ..which I plan shortly to eat .. also in my dream .. a sensory .. progression of experience .. that seems both real and tasty .. but on some level I firmly in fact devoutly believe that I am dreaming the orange . and dreaming me :)
Calvino Rabeni: Another point of view that is being considered in "Ways of Knowing" is ... doesn't "mindfulness" really mean "bodyfulness" essentially
Mitzi Mimistrobell: "That's what I'm talkin' about!" Mitzi exclaims.
Calvino Rabeni: Maybe it's the same dreamer, whether awake or asleep
Mitzi Mimistrobell: (sheepishly) I mean ... I agree with that.
Calvino Rabeni: But if the bodymind is a unity (which I like to believe), then the "act" of mindfulness or presence, would actually put one more in touch with the whole, which would appear as "bodyful" to the extent that the state of the body was shadowed or ignored by conceptual conditioning
Calvino Rabeni: (or something like that)
Calvino Rabeni: brb
Mitzi Mimistrobell: OK ....
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... beyond that general description, though, would lie an infinite number of variations of experiential states that would minimally meet that definition ... perhaps the only similarity among them might be that they differ from previous states in the same person by being "more mindful" than before ...
Mitzi Mimistrobell: thus, a relational definition rather than a concertete on?
Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... a concrete one?
Calvino Rabeni: re
Calvino Rabeni: both might be interesting, I think Mitzi
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni likes Para's smiles and feels that way too :)
Paradise Tennant: life as a puzzle :)
Calvino Rabeni: One idea mentioned earlier was the idea of mindfulness (or awareness, presence) as an opportunity to "roll up one's sleeves" and do some work
Calvino Rabeni: If life is a puzzle, well, awareness helps with puzzles
Mitzi Mimistrobell: the whole attempt to define mindfulness might be a bit ambitious ... we are so complex internally and language is so inadequate ...
Calvino Rabeni: I was playing the game of Go, thinking - ... well mindfulness is coming in pretty handy right now for what's happening here
Mitzi Mimistrobell: For "Go" I imagine you would need both your right brain and your left brain (if that's meaningful at all!)
Calvino Rabeni: Sure, we'll never "capture" mindfulness - or anything else - in a bell jar made only of language ... but of course that's impossible anyway
Calvino Rabeni: As all those meanings and significances exist in consciousness only, not in language
Calvino Rabeni: IT would be like taking a piece of DNA and putting it into my laptop computer DVD drive and wondering why nothing grew from it
Calvino Rabeni: the language only makes sense in the context of consciousness
Calvino Rabeni: if the consciousness were there, we could say "X" and have it mean mindfulness
Calvino Rabeni: and it would
Calvino Rabeni: because language is a speech act perfomed by conscious agents
Calvino Rabeni: basically pointing at the moon I guess
Calvino Rabeni: and if you can't see the moon, then the pointing is ..
Calvino Rabeni: well I guess pointless
Calvino Rabeni: The freshness of any insight or meaning can't be packaged
Calvino Rabeni: language contains nothing
Paradise Tennant: well it skims the senses .. paints the pictures (
Mitzi Mimistrobell: since we have evolved together as a species, perhaps we can just assume a general range of meaning correlated with language will be there in the awareness of another person, even though we can't know how closely or distantly our two experiences correspond - perhaps we CAN assume they correspond at least to some extent ...
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, a smile can be a perfect "word" for mindfulness in the right context
Calvino Rabeni: Good notion, Mitzi
Calvino Rabeni: We might be able to "redeem" the ideas of Goodness, or Beauty for that matter, using that strategy
Calvino Rabeni: They do need to be redeemed, don't they. from the "that's just 'subjective'" ghetto
Paradise Tennant: why do they need redeeming ?
Mitzi Mimistrobell: this is kind of a Francisco Varela insight I think ... this dynamic might be a corrollary of the concept of "autopoeisis"utopoeisis
Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... oops! evidence of spelling dilemmas spills out
Calvino Rabeni: in the belief systems of many - Beauty and Goodness have no intersubjective relevance
Paradise Tennant: lol
Calvino Rabeni: they can't be used in supposedly rational conversation
Paradise Tennant: lol
Calvino Rabeni: because they are *defined* as "merely subjective" or personal
Calvino Rabeni: therefore they can't designate anything in the world of shared experience
Calvino Rabeni: which they used to have the power to do, in previous times of history
Calvino Rabeni: thus they lost their power
Calvino Rabeni: Can you connect the dots.. with Varela?
Paradise Tennant: smiles is eating home made strawberry jam on toast that if you could share would consider both beatiful and good :) do not believe they have lost any power
Calvino Rabeni smiles
Calvino Rabeni: the words "live" with Paradise :)
Paradise Tennant: beauty and good are like chords in life we vibrate to them
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Calvino Rabeni: I think it valid to say they have objective correlates
Calvino Rabeni: that can be shared
Mitzi Mimistrobell: yes ... those words still have power .... how would we quanitfy that they have less than they used to?
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: not just ... well Para likes strawberry jam, what of it :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I'm not sure I agree that they have less power than they used to.
Calvino Rabeni: But you have heard of the modern and postmodern philosophical critiques of those notions ? Supposedly they are starting to make a re-entry into philosophy, or so I've heard
Paradise Tennant: maybe the roll up your sleeves kind of work in the tangible place we call our hearts .. can open up an appreciation of the objective nature of beauty the divine . the good :)
Calvino Rabeni: Of course it's mostly in intellectual circles, but those have influence on the culture
Calvino Rabeni smiles
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Paradise Tennant: smiles but homemade strawberry jam is a shortcut :)
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Calvino Rabeni: Where is that "place" where the work can be done?
Calvino Rabeni: That's a practical question, really
Calvino Rabeni: something about mindfulness and practice
Calvino Rabeni: maybe influencing emotional intelligence, quality fo realationship, physical real-world outcomes, and the rest
Mitzi Mimistrobell: just returning our attention to a body part. For me I use the chest and heart area. Sometimes the feet if I'm really revved up. The gut area has a lot to say as well.
Calvino Rabeni: "tangible place" reminds me of the importance of embodiment in practice
Calvino Rabeni: Indeed, messages
Calvino Rabeni: and those places are loaded with their own nerve plexuses that do as much "information processing" as the cortex
Calvino Rabeni: So part of that "work" might be about bridging between the different "centers' of intelligence
Calvino Rabeni: you might call "awareness" a kind of global process that is capable of doing that kind of thing
Calvino Rabeni: coordinating events into more of a functional unity
Paradise Tennant: looks carefully at mitzi's toes
Mitzi Mimistrobell: my toes!
Calvino Rabeni: (Reminds me of the I Ching ... all motions said to start at the toes)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I hope they are acceptable. This is a standard avatar altered by me.
Paradise Tennant: smiles at mitzi's heart
Calvino Rabeni: smiles at Paradises smiles (again)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Ah! Now I am tracking ... toes and feet are the foundation. Humbly they serve as the foundation of all movement.
Mitzi Mimistrobell: (smiles back at Paradise's heart).
Mitzi Mimistrobell: (and Calvino's as well)
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, they convey the power of the Earth into one's movement
Calvino Rabeni: takes a deep breath
Calvino Rabeni: now smiling at mitzi's heart
Calvino Rabeni: and remembering stevenaia
Paradise Tennant: smiles at stevenaia :) from head to toe :)
Calvino Rabeni: lol
stevenaia Michinaga: smiles
Calvino Rabeni: I'm interested in how "awareness" can unify as well as divide things ... and also temporarily "inhabit" different parts of oneself to liven and energize them
Calvino Rabeni: as in, attention into the heart, making it the center for a while
Calvino Rabeni: or the gut, or the toes, etc. same thing
--BELL--
Paradise Tennant: I think it is pretty easy to inhabit bits of our body with our consciousness .. the exercises they were doing at the retreat strike me as harder ..trying to invest your awareness into an object that in turn observes you ... difficult I suspect ...
Calvino Rabeni: I have a practical philosophy - start with the easy stuff and work up to the fancy stuff :)
Paradise Tennant: smiles with you there !
Calvino Rabeni: The "foundation" would best be ... the easy stuff
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Calvino Rabeni: when looking into an "object" one sees, it's supposed objective facets, then its personal facets - that is, oneself looking back
Calvino Rabeni: I think that's a good halfway house
Calvino Rabeni: as it enlivens oneself to that object, giving receptivity
Calvino Rabeni: The idea being to see others as objects, than as projected subjects looking like oneself in some way, then discriminating projections from the more foreign otherness
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Looking into an object, very interesting idea. Objects are easy to be with ... they don't talk back (much) and are simple in their "is"ness. Kind of relaxing.
Calvino Rabeni: Empathic insight
Mitzi Mimistrobell: what you said, Calvino, "see others as objects, rhan as projected subjects ..." ... wow! that would take some focus. I think I'll start with the easy stuff, actual objects!! Ha ha!
Calvino Rabeni: where could an "other" even reflect in consciousness, except in a more open space of oneself ?
Calvino Rabeni: That makes sense Mitzi
Calvino Rabeni: Start with the easy stuff
Calvino Rabeni: What happens in nature meditation?
Calvino Rabeni: Where it is more than just abstract qualities on a felt level
Paradise Tennant: hmm
Paradise Tennant: the closest I have come to it I think is with nature
Paradise Tennant: flowers trees ..can see them in me and me in them ...
Paradise Tennant: very hard with a chair or a cup :)
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Paradise Tennant: glances at the clock and thinks of pumpkins :)
Paradise Tennant: getting late >> I should scoot :) or will be slush in the morning ..
stevenaia Michinaga: pumkins look back
Paradise Tennant: they grin even
Paradise Tennant: smiles
stevenaia Michinaga: I should go too, I ahve a morning ahead
Mitzi Mimistrobell: plants are nice that way - they are alive but not so active that they overwhelm your senses like another person can easily do (with me at least)
Paradise Tennant: thank you mitz .. thank you cal .. thank you stevenaia .. a lovely session
Mitzi Mimistrobell: a pleasure, Paradise, as usual. Fly away like a fairy!
Paradise Tennant: namaste !
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Mitzi Mimistrobell: How pretty. Ah, they both are taking wing!
Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
Calvino Rabeni: Paradise :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Nice twirling departure!!
Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
Calvino Rabeni: stevenaia
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Bye steve!
Calvino Rabeni: what is it about "nature" ..
Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... yes?
Calvino Rabeni: there's complexity, organization, many layers
Calvino Rabeni: and organic unity
Calvino Rabeni: but also
Calvino Rabeni: there's the fact that it is somewhat foreign
Mitzi Mimistrobell: uh huh
Calvino Rabeni: in the sense of not having so many things we get identified with
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: so for instance after my nature meditation, in which is fairly easy to "open" awareness, I could sort of "remember" that and then go open equivalently in a grocery store ... but it is harder to do it the other way around, to open first, in the grocery store or cafe
Calvino Rabeni: and in some way, those two contexts are "connected"
Calvino Rabeni: how does that work ...
Calvino Rabeni: the transference of awareness from one context to another
Mitzi Mimistrobell: yes, good example. the grocery store is more loud, for one, and more chaotic, and plain old more going on
Calvino Rabeni: maybe .. there are seemingly infinite things going on in nature too
Mitzi Mimistrobell: either overwhelms the senses, or has less coherence of structure, or more points of identification; and/or some of all of these
Calvino Rabeni: bugs walking around, unexpected life forms appearing, birds chattering away in their hard-to-understand languages
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, but as you say, nature is more connected. The structures are more coherent and resonant; make sense, and are naturally / organically structurally resonant with each other.
Calvino Rabeni: bark flaking off trees, wind blowing over leaves knocking them together or fluttering, water sounds echoing off rocks...
Calvino Rabeni: I can't really see it as less complex than a human-built setting
Mitzi Mimistrobell: also they are more inherently pleasant or easy to take in, whereas the grocery store has many jarring or inharmonious components to it.
Calvino Rabeni: Maybe, the human setting is TOO coherent, and we get a little bored with it
Mitzi Mimistrobell: No, I don't think so ...
Calvino Rabeni: boredom shuts down the mind (or is it a defnition of the mind in a shut sown state)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: The latter I think
Calvino Rabeni: Sure, but the human setting can be "opened" in depth too
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, sure. But as you say, it is easier in nature. So, an inquiry could be as to why that is?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I was proposing it was because we don't identify with nature, and get mechanically identified with human-built settings
Calvino Rabeni: they run our neural nets in "already recognized" mode
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I think that may be part of it. But I think there's much more to it as well.
Calvino Rabeni: Rather than the natural setting of "hey just what is going on here?"
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, what else ?
Mitzi Mimistrobell: ?? say more
Calvino Rabeni: Was hoping you'd fish into the "much more to it" bit :)
Calvino Rabeni: It's easier in "nature" / it's harder in "human environment"
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I kind of said some things above, about loudness; coherence; quantity of complexity; that's a good starting point. You want more?
Calvino Rabeni: Suppose we were professional nature observers, trained in it, e.g. naturalists or foresters ...
Lucinda Lavender: HI guys:)
Calvino Rabeni: Yes but I don't buy it really ... human settings aren't inherently loud,
Calvino Rabeni: take a library for instance
Calvino Rabeni: it is quiet, well organized, coherent
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hi Cinda!
Calvino Rabeni: Cinda :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Well you gave the grocery store example. I was still responding to that particular example.
Calvino Rabeni: Ok, but I think it's true in most human-built settings
Calvino Rabeni: independent of noise, etc.
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I think I could have a much easier time in a library to do something like nature meditation. Yes.
Calvino Rabeni: Have you done music meditation, and then tried doing the same thing with the sound of a rushing stream, and then the same with traffic noise?
Calvino Rabeni: Basically, mind is the same in each setting
Calvino Rabeni: hmmm, I'm wondering now how Cinda listens to music
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes ... I think I'm just really easily overstimulated especially by loud or chaotic noises.
Calvino Rabeni: the thing I was wondering about earlier is, how can we "transfer" qualities of awareness between those different contexts
Calvino Rabeni: Well I am too, Mitzi, but have been albe to "relax" into them
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: "Chaotic" is a subjective effect - in terms of sound quality, a rushing stream is the pure expression of chaotic behavior of turbulent water, whereas, traffic is an expression of well-defined mechanisms that are much less chaotic in an objective sense
Calvino Rabeni: It might be, part of that "listening" is to perceive the processes at work, and discriminate them
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Calvino, I think we certainly can transfer qualities of awareness learned in nature meditation to more-manmade environments. It would just take practice, the same as improving any other skill.
Lucinda Lavender: I find that when music has a certain agreement of sound...unified vowels for example...and certain intervals...have a way of deepening ones perception...feel the brain waves change...
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Side note - I'm not sure I agree about the definition of chaotic sound. Perhaps it's just a misunderstanding of the meaning of the word chaotic or difference in personal definitionl.
Calvino Rabeni: Good evening, Ewan :)
Lucinda Lavender: hi Ewan
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Good evening, Ewan, welcome.
Ewan Bonham: Hi folks..
Mitzi Mimistrobell: There is "chaos" and then there is "chaos!"
Calvino Rabeni: I've found it useful to use awareness to meditate on traffic sounds and relax with them
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Traffic can sound a lot like the sea
Calvino Rabeni: in the sense you mean, I think, mitzi, chaos means unexpected, and "didl't like the surprise"
Calvino Rabeni: Yes it can, I noticed that today - a car came by, but the sound reminded me of a wave rushing in over rocks
Ewan Bonham: When I visited NY, I was able o sleep near trsffic because it was steady and never ending...:)
Calvino Rabeni: When the mind is agitated, even the birds singing, can be an irritable or toxic experience
Calvino Rabeni: :) Ewan
Ewan Bonham: Yes, the mind is where it all starts..:)
Calvino Rabeni: I liked visiting foreign cities and getting used to the noises of the dogs barking, roosters crowing, discos thumping, etc.
Calvino Rabeni: it got to be soothing / reassuring
Calvino Rabeni: whereas when I got there at first it was disturbing
Lucinda Lavender: I think I rarely judge the sounds...just have noticed that truly unified vowels are a bonding experience
Calvino Rabeni: but I found, a little awareness helped with the transition
Calvino Rabeni: vowels are powerful
Calvino Rabeni: singing together even more
Lucinda Lavender: yes
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I need to find better words to articulate my meaning a bout the differences between natural and manmade sounds. Unexpected is not really what I feel when it's unpleasant or hard to merge with.
Calvino Rabeni: I'm asking, exploring
Lucinda Lavender: I had an interesting experience with a child last week
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, cinda?
Calvino Rabeni: there's a whole world of sound, it is likely to have any number of interesting qualities
Lucinda Lavender: he was disturbed by a casual country sounding music..while very dependent upon having Baby einstein on in the classroom
Lucinda Lavender: he seems to be able to memorize it all in someway...it is familiar in a way
Lucinda Lavender: but I have yet to understand what the country sound did for him
Mitzi Mimistrobell: a friend of mine is an early childhood teacher and she has described other cases where children are very sensitive to sounds or changes in accustomed sounds. I think we are numb to that by now, very important to notice what children notice.
Lucinda Lavender: he heard it and started saying Ma ma ma
Calvino Rabeni: Back on mitzi's question ... well human sounds are often communicative in nature and make a claim on our attention
Calvino Rabeni: Agrees with Mitzi about that numbness
--BELL--
Ewan Bonham: And what we really notice...whether we cover it over or not..:)
Lucinda Lavender: I hope to uncover what the response meant
Calvino Rabeni: I also read a study / experiment, showing that overhearing cell phone conversations is disruptive because people hear HALF A CONVERSATION - a "halfalog" - while whole conversations in the ambient noise surround were not nearly as distracting
Calvino Rabeni: So what we "notice" depends a lot on its nature as communicatin
Mitzi Mimistrobell: sounds plausible!
Calvino Rabeni: the people could tune out the "whole" conversations
Calvino Rabeni: but the "half" ones they couldn't tune out as easily
Lucinda Lavender: makes sense...that we want to figure out the missing parts
Calvino Rabeni: presumably their minds - mirror neurons - mechanisms that make us skillful human communicators - were working overtime subconsciously
Mitzi Mimistrobell: yes, makes sense
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I also find that lots of conversations like in a coffee house, blend together into a nice white noise ambient background, but if there's just ONE conversation going on, I'm totally listening to it!
Calvino Rabeni: The presence of these subconscious / automatic mechanisms of perception would seem to put a constraint on what "awareness" can accomplish as an active / intentional force
Mitzi Mimistrobell: No Shit Sherlock!! (ooops)
Calvino Rabeni: Again? Another interesting but divergent question is ... just how "powerful" is awareness ... some say it can do almost nothing, others say it can do a great deal
Calvino Rabeni: and I suppose it depends on the application, the practice, the concrete strategies and mechanisms involved
Calvino Rabeni: that awareness must be VERY contextual and specifically embodied to function well
Calvino Rabeni: and probably needs to be trained
Calvino Rabeni: Although some would say - "water the root"
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I have a thought on this. I think it can "lean on" processes with long momentum behind them. So, there might not be an immediate, strong effect, but over time, the changes can be really significant and powerful. But long-grooved habits can't inherently change in a flash.
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, that would be watering the root.
Calvino Rabeni: Nice, Mitzi
Calvino Rabeni: I agree, that is a powerful reason to cultivate long-term-awareness
Calvino Rabeni: and in fact, it might be undercut by ideas of "living in the present" ? Unless the "present" can somehow notice the traces in the mo0ment of those long-term processes
Mitzi Mimistrobell: well, yes! I think the present can notice the traces in the moment ... as well as anything else
Calvino Rabeni: When the indigenous people pray to their ancestors and also their descendents, and consider actions in the context of "deep time: - the "seven generations" ...
Calvino Rabeni: That deep time - is it a concept? Is it related to the simple act of bridging moments by aware attention?
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Beautiful. That's certainly what people in American society are not doing much of.
Calvino Rabeni: Sadly
--BELL--
Lucinda Lavender: Lucinda is thinking about when walking from a dream...the moments of awareness thatare like flashes of truth expanding ones awareness...
Calvino Rabeni: As those images get taken into the waking mind?
Lucinda Lavender: yes
Calvino Rabeni: I know what you mean
Lucinda Lavender: awakening to them is outside ones own mental judgemnet
Calvino Rabeni: for me it takes attention to "allow" that to happen
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Lucinda Lavender: judgement
Calvino Rabeni: I think, that's "pre-judgment"
Lucinda Lavender: I guess I am talking about that which may awaken a more cosmic awareness...perhaps
Calvino Rabeni: Can we do something to help / allow it?
Lucinda Lavender: a bigger picture...hmmm
Lucinda Lavender: perhaps accepting that it lives in all our minds yet we must somehow recognize that there is potential to mirror everything.
Calvino Rabeni smiles, not ready to have an opinion but likes the topic
Lucinda Lavender: I have recently been reading about awareness...and that is part of the reading I have done...it points to this being a pardoxical realm...
Lucinda Lavender: physical body being a place that the awareness is communicated through
Lucinda Lavender: listen to the body...
Calvino Rabeni: yes, body awareness is really helpful
Calvino Rabeni: as the place where lots of knowledge can "register"
Lucinda Lavender: mmay be why prejudgement makes sense
Calvino Rabeni: it's almost like the body is a blackboard that many different minds write upon to communicate
Lucinda Lavender: nids
Calvino Rabeni: even when they are not there at the same time
Lucinda Lavender: nods
Lucinda Lavender: like having dreatime all the time in the body...
Lucinda Lavender: dreamtime
--BELL--
Lucinda Lavender: perhaps balancing goes on...
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Ewan Bonham: Thank you folks....nice seeing and listening to you..:)
Calvino Rabeni: Bye Ewan, take care :)
Lucinda Lavender: bye Ewan:)
Calvino Rabeni: Friends, it's the hour ... and I need to go also :)
Calvino Rabeni: Thanks so much :)
Lucinda Lavender: and thank you!
Calvino Rabeni: Dream well, Cinda and Mitzi :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: So long ...
Lucinda Lavender: same for you...
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hi Cinda, are you still here?
Lucinda Lavender: yes
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I haven't been attentive but enjoy connecting with you
Lucinda Lavender: thanks:)
Lucinda Lavender: any thoughts before going?
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Your theme has seemed often to be dreams, But, I want to say that you should feel free to be there in any other theme or topic as well, I know you are not limited to that area of interest.
Lucinda Lavender: well ...Many areas that I am less familiar with ...
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I just want you to know that I see you not as just "dream Cinda".
Lucinda Lavender: are hard to begin to communicate about...
Lucinda Lavender: Thanks! that is very nice...
Lucinda Lavender: do you have an area that you specialize in ...?
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Sure! And knowing you are friends with Calvino for many years. We have some kind of connection,
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Well I am interested in a lot of things around cognition, and parallel processing/neural networks. I studied that in college. But these days I'm very interested in Gurdjieff work, Sufism, etc. Stuff that Calvino are both really interested in.
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Body based awareness contemplation pracrices. "Nature meditation," or "impressions" work in the Gurdjieff tradition are big focuses for me.
Lucinda Lavender: ah I see:)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Also use of language and social stuff around language and communication.
Lucinda Lavender: Hi alexis:)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hi Alexis, nice to meet you.
Alexis Sommerfeld: Greetings, Ladies. Namaste! I trust both of you are doing well this evening?
Lucinda Lavender: you have been here before yes?
Alexis Sommerfeld: Yes, I have been here before.
Lucinda Lavender: yes...well
Alexis Sommerfeld: And I acknowledge that I'm being recorded so that my words of wisdom will touch the face of the Internet.
Alexis Sommerfeld: And embarass my offspring for generations to come.
Lucinda Lavender: it Nice:)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I always forget that part! :)
Lucinda Lavender: understand that!
Lucinda Lavender: :)))
Alexis Sommerfeld: I take lots of pictures, but mostly of me.
Alexis Sommerfeld: So no worries. :)
Lucinda Lavender: I took alot of pictures in RL tonight at a Havest party...
--BELL--
Alexis Sommerfeld: I am drinking a bottle of what was formerly a harvest wine.
Lucinda Lavender: The Seattle Farm Coop had a party for bartering goods people had made and a square dance.
Mitzi Mimistrobell: How fun! and seasonal as well!
Lucinda Lavender: Lots of people and kids.
Lucinda Lavender: and music and there was one really neat contraption...
Lucinda Lavender: A bicycle that grionds wheat
Lucinda Lavender: grinds
Alexis Sommerfeld: I love barter.
Lucinda Lavender: kids really like that!
Alexis Sommerfeld: I wrote a paper once about the benefits of barter, and the benefits of abolishing interest earned on money in savings.
Mitzi Mimistrobell: a good way to productively harness all that kid energy
Mitzi Mimistrobell: ha ha!
Alexis Sommerfeld: The current system is a clever way to insure enslavement of the working class by the noble / upper class.
Alexis Sommerfeld: So how about them Dodgers?
Lucinda Lavender: :)))
Lucinda Lavender: sorry but don't know about their current stus:)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Good evenings, lovely ladies, I must depart ...
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hope to see you again, Alexis, and next week perhaps, Cinda?
Alexis Sommerfeld: Good night, Mitzi. Namaste, new friend.
Lucinda Lavender: Mitzi, nice night to you...
Alexis Sommerfeld: I guess I should wander off to.
Alexis Sommerfeld: Bedtime approaches.
Lucinda Lavender: I have been here a while and better ready for the week
Alexis Sommerfeld: Nice meeting you, Lucinda. Have a good night!
Lucinda Lavender: yes have a good night..Alexis