2010.11.03 07:00 - True Self

The Guardian for this meeting was No Self. The comments are by No Self.

Yakuzza Lethecus: brian, have you been here before ?
Yakuzza Lethecus: this notecard will explain a lot
Yakuzza Lethecus: we are going to record the sessions
Ewan Bonham: Hi Folks!
Yakuzza Lethecus: and post them online, that´s the most important aspect you have to know
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey ewan
Yakuzza Lethecus: ok :)
Lucinda Lavender: I am about to leave so send my good wishes for your day....
Yakuzza Lethecus: so you´re aware
Yakuzza Lethecus: well, nice to see you luci
Yakuzza Lethecus: don´t scare the kids
Yakuzza Lethecus: halloween is over :)
Lucinda Lavender: yes ...I am on vacation:)

--BELL--

Yakuzza Lethecus becomes suddenly jealous
Lucinda Lavender: ah:)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello everyone :) Would you know who is covering me for this session?
Yakuzza Lethecus: i am a bit uncertain about the meaning :)
Lucinda Lavender: I do not know...
Lucinda Lavender: who will be claiming the log ...
Yakuzza Lethecus: ah, you have to go gaya ?
Yakuzza Lethecus: i can
Gaya Ethaniel: I need to attend a Kira meeting ... I see Bruce coming though :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: ah
Yakuzza Lethecus: did he want to do it ?
Gaya Ethaniel: Iming him to check ...
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey bruce :)
Ewan Bonham: Hi Bruce
Lucinda Lavender: HI Bruce:)
Brian Roop: Hello Bruci, Imade it here you see
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Bruce :)
Bruce Mowbray: Good morning - day - folks, still rezzing here.
Brian Roop: Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Good to see you, Brian. (and Yaku, Ewan, Lucinda, and Gaya !)
Gaya Ethaniel: Have fun everyone!
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye gaya :)
Ewan Bonham: bye gaya
Bruce Mowbray: Whew! There's a bit of furious IM-ing going on to find a guardian for this session -- and I guess that would be me. . .
Bruce Mowbray: Nope -- Yaku just claimed it. ;-)
Yakuzza Lethecus: welcome brian!
Brian Roop: thank you
Yakuzza Lethecus: so you read the notecard before
Bruce Mowbray: Welcome Brian.
Brian Roop: yes but it seems to me this is something better understood by experience
Bruce Mowbray: Like life itself, Brian!
Brian Roop: yes
Yakuzza Lethecus: well, i have to admit that i am usually more an observer around here
Bruce Mowbray: Good to see you again, too, Ewan.
Bruce Mowbray: and Lucinda.
Ewan Bonham: Yes, glad to be here..
Bruce Mowbray: ooops -- Lucinda has poofed - sry.
Yakuzza Lethecus: did you read some of the logfiles tonight when bruce gave you the landmark to this place ?
Bruce Mowbray: any hot topics on anyone's mind today?
Brian Roop: it was late, i just read the basic info
Ewan Bonham: I am jus open
Yakuzza Lethecus: so we already reached the budda nature, there is nothing more to say :)
Brian Roop: we did?
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Bruce Mowbray: http://wiki.playasbeing.org/
Yakuzza Lethecus: actually, i often think about what i am grasping for and try to gain out of contemplative exposure
Bruce Mowbray supposes that Buddha nature is not something we "reach" or "achieve" -- Rather, Buhhda nature is something we already are (and always have been). . . .
Yakuzza Lethecus: i am myself am roman catholic on paper even tho that i don´t visit a church on a regular basis
Bruce Mowbray: Yaku, is there a "Buddha nature" equivalent in the Catholic or Christian tradition, do you think?
Brian Roop: i think of it as letting the true self come through
Yakuzza Lethecus: well, that´s why i like to listen to eos and pema so much :)
Brian Roop: putting the masks away
Bruce Mowbray: agrees with Brian on that!
Yakuzza Lethecus: they aren´t only knowledgable in eastern traditions

--BELL--

Yakuzza Lethecus: and in some chatlogs ewan also had very interesting glimses
Ewan Bonham: Thank you..:)
Ewan Bonham: I consider myself to be a kinda hybrid...generally new thought.
Brian Roop: i think buddha nature is present in christian tradition but not well articulated
Brian Roop: our mystics are a mystery to us
Bruce Mowbray: So then, the "contemplative" traditions are where we "find" our "true self"? ---- in other words, though the mystics?
Ewan Bonham: I agree...in the high level of respect for the dignity of all life.
Yakuzza Lethecus: when i ask some deeply beliving person in our family(principly only my left grandmother), then she´s simply beliving and got faith while she seems to do catholic rituals very habitual but she´s happy with it
Brian Roop: i would say by becoming mystics
Bruce Mowbray: or through our own contemplation?
Yakuzza Lethecus: sometimes i wonder if ,,true faith" is kind of a budda nature
Brian Roop: method is important only insofar as it helps us approach the true self
Brian Roop: which is immersed in the Other
Brian Roop: bariers fall away
Brian Roop: but can't be pushed
Ewan Bonham: Yes...a gentle approach..
Ewan Bonham: Nothing aggressive
Bruce Mowbray: And when we find that "True Self," Brian, is that a "good" thing -- as The term Buddha Nature would suggest?
Brian Roop: the best, i would say, whatever we call it
Brian Roop: because ultimately there is no name for it
Bruce Mowbray: I mean -- is there a Basic Goodness underlying all of the barriers (or transcending all of the barriers)?
Brian Roop: God saw everything he had made, and it was very good
Bruce Mowbray: At Pamala's Think Tank last Saturday morning (I hope it's OK to say this), Ewan spoke of "guardian angels" --
Ewan Bonham: I call it total positive regard
Brian Roop: until we started screwing it up
Bruce Mowbray: so. . . . Basic Goodness actually comes BEFORE mankind. . . as part of the original "Creation" itself?
Brian Roop: that's how i read it
Bruce Mowbray: What the Western tradition calls God -- make everything "Good"?
Brian Roop: that's how i read genesis 1
Bruce Mowbray: including the processes of nature -- like evolution, natural laws, etc.
Brian Roop: no evil there in itself
Brian Roop: but the true self is beyond creation
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm . . . assuming that Genesis I is an allegory (not necessarily literally true - but each part being symbolic of a truth), how did we kick ourselves out of the Garden, then?
Brian Roop: pride
Brian Roop: self sufficiency
Bruce Mowbray: so, pride = original sin?
Ewan Bonham: Ego..
Brian Roop: god unto ourselves
Ewan Bonham: meaning, w took the place of what we perceived as God
Ewan Bonham: Ironically, knowing God became a vehicle to be God
Bruce Mowbray listens intently.
Brian Roop: understood god as power not love
Ewan Bonham: Yes, brian
Brian Roop: yaku, have you anything to say about these matters?

--BELL--

Yakuzza Lethecus: i was glad that an interesting topic came up
Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
Brian Roop chuckles sympathetically
Bruce Mowbray: Well, I feel that the whole notion of "free will" is, perhaps, a fallacy.
Ewan Bonham: I think we are still wandering in the desert..
Bruce Mowbray: When I "look" within myself, I find many parts -- some of which seem to have no free will whatsoever. . .
Ewan Bonham: But the way home is to step out of the role of ME being God and allow for the truth that God is in all of us.
Yakuzza Lethecus: as i mentioned, i would even like when ppl are referring to thomas aquinas or st augustin, i am especially in case of contemplative idea´s in a void of what i could google for
Yakuzza Lethecus: ups i dind´t mention that :P
Bruce Mowbray: But isn't "God" or Buddha Nature, or the Tao, or the Christ who we realy ARE?
Bruce Mowbray: and therefore, our true identity (as most contemplatives would say) is divine.
Yakuzza Lethecus: for me it´s a calm comfortable form of that yes
Ewan Bonham: Divine to me means...a part of all...no barriers
Bruce Mowbray: The key, in Buddhism, it seems to me, is no-separation of the divine in all things.
Bruce Mowbray: yes, Ewan - - that's it.
Brian Roop: my favorite analogy is floating on a calm ocean
Bruce Mowbray: In J.D. Salinger's book, FRANNY AND ZOOEY, the little baby drinks her milk, and her older brother calls it "God p[ouring god into god."
Ewan Bonham: Yes, Brian
Bruce Mowbray: pouring*
Brian Roop: requires no effort, effort actually sinks the experience
Bruce Mowbray: Going with the flow, then.
Bruce Mowbray: the watercourse way, as Taosist would tall it.
Brian Roop: but there is no flow, just calm
Bruce Mowbray: tell*
Brian Roop: stillness
Bruce Mowbray: so, Basic Goodness is to be found in that stillness. . . .
Bruce Mowbray: thus meditation, contemplation, etc. . .
Brian Roop: letting ourselves in to what is really real
Brian Roop: beyond thought, beyond sense
Bruce Mowbray: From Enya's song:
Bruce Mowbray: Through all the tumult and the strife I hear it's music ringing, It sounds an echo in my soul. How can I keep from singing? While though the tempest loudly roars, I hear the truth, it liveth. And though the darkness 'round me close, songs in the night it giveth. No storm can shake my inmost calm, while to that rock I'm clinging. Since love is lord of heaven and earth how can I keep from singing?
Brian Roop: myfavorite, but not the way enya sings it
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, the original version was an old Quaker song....
Brian Roop: i learned it in appalachian bluegrass
Ewan Bonham: Yes, the overall concept of Love..
Ewan Bonham: And the living of loving presence
Bruce Mowbray: My life flows on in endless song: Above earth's lamentation, I catch the sweet, tho' far-off hymn That hails a new creation. Through all the tumult and the strife I hear the music ringing; It finds an echo in my soul-- How can I keep from singing? What tho' my joys and comfort die? The Lord my Saviour liveth; What tho' the darkness gather round? Songs in the night he giveth. No storm can shake my inmost calm, While to that refuge clinging; Since Christ is Lord of heaven and earth, How can I keep from singing? I lift my eyes; the cloud grows thin; I see the blue above it; And day by day this pathway smooths, Since first I learned to love it. The peace of Christ makes fresh my heart, A fountain ever springing; All things a
Bruce Mowbray: The peace of Christ makes fresh my heart, A fountain ever springing; All things are mine since I am his-- How can I keep from singing?
Brian Roop: are mine and i am his, how can i keep from singing
Brian Roop: hah, ya beat me to it
Ewan Bonham: lol
Bruce Mowbray: ;-) -- my copy/paster could handle all of the words on the first go-round.
Bruce Mowbray: Quakers, of course, worship God in silence.
Bruce Mowbray: and only speak (in worship service) when the "Light within" moves them to speak.
Bruce Mowbray: I attend a Quaker group (in RL) every Sunday ---
Bruce Mowbray: and for me, I will not speak unless I feel that what I have to say is more valuable than the silence itself. . .
Bruce Mowbray: so that means I almost never speak.

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: Ewan, could what "moves" someone to speak in silent worship be what you call "a guardian angel"?
Ewan Bonham: I think it could...provided I am listening
Bruce Mowbray: ;-) that we are inwardly silent enough to "hear."
Ewan Bonham: that would happen for me when I feel the movement within a sense of peace..
Ewan Bonham: Not to say something 'important'..
Bruce Mowbray: This might be the "reason" for monasteries -- to go into the silence more deeply, and apart from ego-drivenness, to be able to feel that sense of peace.
Brian Roop: i lived in a strict Catholic monastery for a month once
Brian Roop: those dozen men were just about the humblest, kindest people i could want to know
Ewan Bonham: Brian, was it protective in it ambience?
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi alf :)
Brian Roop: how do you mean?
Brian Roop: don't understand
Ewan Bonham: Bruce had mentioned that maybe a monastery keeps folks removed from the ego world. Was that your experience?
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Alfred --- we're talking about contemplation, mystic traditions, and vehicles through which persons come to know "inner peace." - - -
Brian Roop: they follow the Rule of St. Benedict which emphasized humility, acceptance of others
Brian Roop: and love of God above all things
Brian Roop: Gregory the Great says Benedict had a vision toward the end of life where he saw everything in a ray of light
Ewan Bonham: And white light is a combination of all colors
Brian Roop: Aquinas had an experience which led him to say that everything he had done before was so much trash
Brian Roop: no, straw
Bruce Mowbray: I've felt that same way. . . that even though I've meditated for over 40 years, that much/most of that time was "wasted" -- although, of course, it was probably necessary in ways I do not understand.
Brian Roop: Nothing is wasted, if the search is sincere
Bruce Mowbray: even "searching" in all the wrong places.
Bruce Mowbray: This would suggest that cosmos is basically gracious.
Brian Roop: Mother Teresa says what counts is effort not success
Bruce Mowbray: that no matter how furious the storms, the seas will calm down again.
Ewan Bonham: And the time spent in what may not seem productive can be used for lessons in the future
Yakuzza Lethecus: i often wonder the past should ever be considered to be wasted, there is the future but giving a negative value to unchangable experience will only create grief
Brian Roop: exactly

--BELL--

Brian Roop: all we've got to work with is the present moment
Ewan Bonham: thank you, all..i have to run. Very helpful conversation and sharing..:))
Yakuzza Lethecus: take care ewan
Bruce Mowbray: Thanks, Ewan. Walk in beauty today.
Yakuzza Lethecus: but i can´t claim that i woulnd´t evaluate my past negativly
Brian Roop: well we shouldn't judge by what we know now, stupidity and foolishness of the past
Brian Roop: i will need to go too, woul d like to give you a poem i wrote that might relate to what we've discussed
Bruce Mowbray: please do give us the poem, Brian.
Brian Roop: i will come back when i can, don't usally have this kind of time to give to sl
Bruce Mowbray: Would it be all right with you if we included your poem in the chat log, Brian?
Brian Roop: yes
Yakuzza Lethecus: thx brian
Brian Roop: you're welcome
Bruce Mowbray: thank you all. I must also be going.
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye everyone
Brian Roop: i am not a prolific poet, but it came to mind
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Aph!
Aphrodite Macbain: Hello
Aphrodite Macbain: my commiserations
Bruce Mowbray: Be well and happy, Brian.
Aphrodite Macbain: sorry I missed your poem Brian
Bruce Mowbray: Come back when you can.
Brian Roop: you too, thanks for putting me on to this
Brian Roop: is there a group associated with it?
Bruce Mowbray: no -- no formal group --- but there are several different sessions. . .
Bruce Mowbray: you do not need to join any group though.
Aphrodite Macbain: Love your poem Brian!
Brian Roop: thanks aphrodite
Aphrodite Macbain: only a swim in Being ...
Aphrodite Macbain: lovely
Brian Roop: bye yu two, hasta later
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye!
Aphrodite Macbain: Hello Alfred
Alfred Kelberry: oh, i think it works this time
Alfred Kelberry: i can move and speak :)
Aphrodite Macbain: can'ty see you but i can read you
Aphrodite Macbain: oop there you are mr boxy
Bruce Mowbray: Hi again, Alfred.
Alfred Kelberry: i thought i'd go frozen like bruce :)
Alfred Kelberry: hi :)
Aphrodite Macbain: I've been afraid to turn on thee radio this AM. What were the final results of the election?
Alfred Kelberry: well, i missed the session
Aphrodite Macbain: so did I alf
Aphrodite Macbain: Democrats leading the senate?
Bruce Mowbray: I've not looked at the final results -- didn't want to depress myself so early in the day.
Alfred Kelberry: d senate and r house
Aphrodite Macbain: hmmm me neither
Aphrodite Macbain: well, that's the state it has been in in the past. rarely is there a democratic majority in both houses
Aphrodite Macbain: yikes
Alfred Kelberry: i'm afraid the change is over :/
Aphrodite Macbain: really?
Bruce Mowbray: Folks, the previous hour's discussion was grand, and I must now be off to chores on the farm.
Bruce Mowbray: May all be well and happy today.
Alfred Kelberry: bruce :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye! Bruce. sorry I missed the discussion.
Alfred Kelberry: enjoy the farm :)
Bruce Mowbray: thanks!
Alfred Kelberry: it's nice of you to join us at the circle, Visitor