2010.11.16 01:00 - Politics and philosophy

The Guardian for this meeting was Wester Kiranov. The comments are by Wester Kiranov.

I met Vajra Raymaker, and we had a very interesting conversation. Alfred Kelberry joined us too. Unfortunately I had to leave early.

Wester Kiranov: .
Vajra Raymaker: greetings, Wester
Wester Kiranov: hi vajra
Vajra Raymaker: Is there a PaB session now? I forget the times set aside for them.
Wester Kiranov: there is, but it is a bit quiet
Vajra Raymaker: I see.
Vajra Raymaker: beautiful pink fountain :)
Wester Kiranov: it's some kind of flower
Vajra Raymaker: oh, k
Vajra Raymaker: maybe a lotus?
Wester Kiranov: I'm pretty sure lotusses have broader leaves
Vajra Raymaker: representing the rising from the muck and mud, as Adam and all
Vajra Raymaker: oh, right. I guess so
Wester Kiranov: I do appreciate the symbolism of lotuses as well
--BELL--
Vajra Raymaker: yes. Though I wish I could think of a similar flower in my area.
Vajra Raymaker: Hi XXX
Wester Kiranov: hi XXX
Vajra Raymaker: are you in North America, Wester? Or Europe? Or somewhere else?
Wester Kiranov: I'm in Europe
Vajra Raymaker: aha
Vajra Raymaker: naturally
Vajra Raymaker: It's a bit late for Americans, at least the east coasters
Wester Kiranov: I think they try to not have explicit religious imagery here, and a lotus could be seen as buddhist.. Or maybe they just thought this was prettier
Vajra Raymaker: XXX you are welcome to join us, if you'd like. Though there is a recorder, as you can see.
Wester Kiranov: I can take you out of the chat log if you prefer
Vajra Raymaker: Oh, interesting.
Vajra Raymaker: No; I am reconciled to this craziness of recording everything in this crazy era
Vajra Raymaker: Though I am still interested in how this stuff will be used, and to whose profit
Vajra Raymaker: I have not been able to find out thus far (was involved in PaB earlier)
Wester Kiranov: I don't know either, but I very much doubt they would make a lot of money with it
Vajra Raymaker: If someone gets credit on their CV I want to get credit too
Vajra Raymaker: Wester, do you have any interest in politics?
Vajra Raymaker: or Philosophy?
Vajra Raymaker: Or some specific art?
Wester Kiranov: Politics moderately, philosophy yes, art not particularly
Vajra Raymaker: what part of philosophy?
Wester Kiranov: Mainly foundations of the sciences
Vajra Raymaker: and I bet if you are seriously interested in philosophy and accomplished in it, you are not likely to be much inclined to challenge the political status quo
Wester Kiranov: How does that follow from each other?
Vajra Raymaker: oh, philosophy of science
Vajra Raymaker: what part?
Vajra Raymaker: oh it doesn't follow logically. It is just how academic philosophers tend to be, I notice. I have complex explanations for why that would be... we could consider them... but the observation is pretty sturdy
Wester Kiranov: I prefer philosophy of biology and of mathematics, but I know a bit about philosophy of physics too. Though a lot of it is a bit rusty ;)
Vajra Raymaker: ah
Vajra Raymaker: I like philosophy of biology too, and some foundations of math
Vajra Raymaker: and well, some phiklosohy of physics, for that mattter
Wester Kiranov: I am a member of a political party but I don't do much about it. It just makes me worry too much
Vajra Raymaker: for biology, I'm interested inthe ontological status of species
Vajra Raymaker: Well as for politics, there is much to worry about, and I believe that philosophers and other intellectuals are remiss to let things go
Wester Kiranov: Ah. I applied to a PhD program on the status of species once. Do I know you? :-)
Vajra Raymaker: Both my tough minded analytic philosophy and hard science friends, and my so called loosy goosey yoga friends are agreed in saying that we should ignore politics, and focus on the eternal, or at least focus on immediate experience
Vajra Raymaker: However, I think they are all irresponsible
Vajra Raymaker: We are in seriously dangerous times
Vajra Raymaker: And we need all thoughtful people to rise to the occasion
Wester Kiranov: You do have a point there, I'm afraid
Vajra Raymaker: Buddhists have found a way to defend engagement in the world
--BELL--
Alfred Kelberry: hi :)
Alfred Kelberry: westy :)
Alfred Kelberry: hi, vajra. i don't think we've met. nice to see you :)
Wester Kiranov: hi alf
Vajra Raymaker: Nice to meet you too, Alfred!
Alfred Kelberry: nice scarf too :)
Vajra Raymaker: heh
Vajra Raymaker: would you like a copy?
Alfred Kelberry: *waves to XXX* good to see you joined us today
Alfred Kelberry: oh, sure :)
Wester Kiranov: I will have to leave in a few minutes, some RL things that need to be done
Alfred Kelberry: 1 am session is quiet
Vajra Raymaker: shoot. All my scarfs say no copy.
Vajra Raymaker: Wait... maybe there's one
Alfred Kelberry: it's ok, vajra. thanks :)
Alfred Kelberry: most of them aren't
Vajra Raymaker: Alfred, do you believe that academics have an obligation to enter in to the political dialogue of the nations at the present point in time?
Vajra Raymaker: Academics and all thoughful people
Vajra Raymaker: such as Buddhists and yogis
Alfred Kelberry: i think any person can :)
Vajra Raymaker: yes certainly
Vajra Raymaker: I have found that many academics refrain, however
Vajra Raymaker: Refrain from speaking out on e.g. matters concerning civil liberties e.g. in the U.S.
Vajra Raymaker: Following the courses of their careers instead
Vajra Raymaker: supposing e.g. that artistic life removes them from politics, or supposing that scientific endeavors remove them
Vajra Raymaker: (I am extremely fearful about the times we live in. What is going on at airports with border control for example is beyond the pale)
Wester Kiranov: Personally, I find it difficult that those discussions always get so explosive. It tires me out. No excuse, I know...
Vajra Raymaker: ah. Well you must be in the US then, with this crazy division between the democrats and republicans, Wester
Wester Kiranov: I was wondering about the airport controls. If you look on the internet it looks like everyone is concerned about it, but how is it IRL?
Vajra Raymaker: the rhetoric indeed is extremely tiring. A real bore.
Vajra Raymaker: But that is part of the problem
Vajra Raymaker: Oh Wester, have you not been through an airport recently?
Wester Kiranov: In Europe it gets tiring in different ways. But the politics in the Nether lands (which is where I am) are polarizing fast
Vajra Raymaker: They are asking Americans to report exactly where they will be traveling in the country. They are patting down people by touching their private parts.
Vajra Raymaker: This is not acceptable
Vajra Raymaker: ah, interesting Wester. How is it polarizing?
Wester Kiranov: I know it's not acceptable, the airports scans and everything
Vajra Raymaker: Well, not enough people are standing up to it
Alfred Kelberry: the problem with airport security is that it's reactive instead of being proactive. they announce measures after something has already happened. bomb in a shoe - check all the shoes. explosive liquid - remove all the liquids. it's not very effective.
Wester Kiranov: There is this rightwing politician who is very anti-muslim, and very vocal about it
Alfred Kelberry: wester, politics becomes radical in times of economic instability
Wester Kiranov: he talked a bout a "muslim tsunami" a while ago, for instance
Vajra Raymaker: I am a believer in the reality of democracy and in the reality of the commitment to human rights. These things are suffering enormous hits. The pessimistic view is that they were never realities. We are in a twilight zone almost with respect to what the talk is vs. the reality
Vajra Raymaker: yes, Alfred, about reactive.
Alfred Kelberry: it's because politicians feed on fear to make they point and a career
Wester Kiranov: I do wish I go on a bit with this conversation, but I have to go now. Next time?
Wester Kiranov: bye bye
Alfred Kelberry: bye, wester
Wester Kiranov: *I could go on
--BELL--
Alfred Kelberry: vajra, i think its' important to not fall int othe fear trap with what's going on and keep a calm rational mind
Vajra Raymaker: Alfred, at this point I do not know whether that recipe is a fashionable cliche
Vajra Raymaker: and excuse we are telling ourselves
Vajra Raymaker: for not acting
Alfred Kelberry: action comes from your mind and it's important what state it is in for the outcome
Vajra Raymaker: okay, I can agree with that
Vajra Raymaker: not only in principle
Vajra Raymaker: but by experience
Vajra Raymaker: though not, I am sorry to admit, by discipline :p
Alfred Kelberry: as you can see at the moment, many countries go through a nationalistic uprise in europe
Alfred Kelberry: it's due to irrational fear
Vajra Raymaker: I do NOT think the students in London were irrational
Vajra Raymaker: I calculated how much I paid in the late 70s early 80s
Vajra Raymaker: in the US
Vajra Raymaker: and added in inflation
Alfred Kelberry: well, it's anger
Vajra Raymaker: They are being asked to pay WAY more than I paid
Vajra Raymaker: they are asking to pay
Vajra Raymaker: being asked to pay
Vajra Raymaker: way more than is there fair share
Vajra Raymaker: and that is a fact
Alfred Kelberry: yes, tripled as i heard, i'd go on crushing things as well, i'm afraid :)
Vajra Raymaker: it is a simple fact
Vajra Raymaker: I was told that in my country (Canada) a billion dollars can make a difference to what direction the currency goes in
Vajra Raymaker: And in fact there are a good number of individuals who have a billion dollars
Vajra Raymaker: And it is the same in the US and other countries
Vajra Raymaker: This is NOT democracy
Vajra Raymaker: The majority vote, the vote of scientific expertise, makes NO difference to the outcome
Alfred Kelberry: democracy is in how these money are spent
Vajra Raymaker: What sorry state are we in
Vajra Raymaker: It is hard to tell, Alfred
Vajra Raymaker: Sorry for ranting
Vajra Raymaker: :)
Alfred Kelberry: well, think about africa, then look around your house and city you live in - is it really that sorry of a state? :)
Vajra Raymaker: Africa or... Haiti
Vajra Raymaker: To lance a cyst a person in a village of Haiti has to walk all day for miles to find someone who owns a needle
Vajra Raymaker: and then another day to find someone who has a match
Vajra Raymaker: But I do not think the situation there is unrelated to the situation in the rest of the world. Do you?
Alfred Kelberry: they are also people and live on the same earth
Vajra Raymaker: ye
Vajra Raymaker: yes
Alfred Kelberry: we tend to fall into our habitual state and take things for granted. it's good to step back and see how blessed we are for what we have at times.
Vajra Raymaker: True. Nevertheless, people tell themselves all kinds of things to avoid the reality of what is happening, the reality that is challenging us to show the courage that some of our forebears showed
--BELL--
Alfred Kelberry: reality is different for everyone
Vajra Raymaker: We are of course very blessed, for toilets, for clean water, for relative safety, for warmth, for affordable food, for dear people and meaningful work. At least I am. Nevertheless, we are living in times that require the attention of academics,attention that is not forthcoming in my view.
Vajra Raymaker: People have different perceptions of reality, that is true, Alfred
Vajra Raymaker: Do you believe that the era we are in is not an unusally challenging one?
Alfred Kelberry: not much unlike the other eras before us
Vajra Raymaker: demanding, I should say?
Vajra Raymaker: How about you, XXX?
Alfred Kelberry: um, i think he's in observant state
Alfred Kelberry: he doesn't really talk
Vajra Raymaker: k
Vajra Raymaker: well, I should get to bed
Vajra Raymaker: It's late for me
Alfred Kelberry: right :)
Vajra Raymaker: I want to hear more of your view of life, though Alfred
Alfred Kelberry: thank you for your company, vajra
Vajra Raymaker: I hope we meet another time
Vajra Raymaker: Do you come here often?
Alfred Kelberry: yep
Vajra Raymaker: okay then maybe I will see you
Alfred Kelberry: at least a session a day :)
Vajra Raymaker: wpw
Vajra Raymaker: wow
Alfred Kelberry: i'm going to be leaving for a trip soon though
Vajra Raymaker: some place good?
Alfred Kelberry: till end of the week
Alfred Kelberry: yes, road trip is always good :)
Vajra Raymaker: yep
Vajra Raymaker: :)
Vajra Raymaker: specially if you have a radio that lets you hear the truckers
Alfred Kelberry: road, wind, nature and adventure :)
Vajra Raymaker: yes
Alfred Kelberry: ah, sorry, gtg
Vajra Raymaker: kk
Alfred Kelberry: sleep well :)
Vajra Raymaker: take care
Vajra Raymaker: tks