The Guardian for this meeting was Yakuzza Lethecus. The comments are by Yakuzza Lethecus.

Qt Core: Hi Chi
Chi Aho: Hi, Blissful; come in
Qt Core: Hi Bliss
Blissful Badger: Salve Qt. Hi Chi
Chi Aho: Blissful, I see you are interested in community development
Blissful Badger: Yes! very much so. Are you?
Chi Aho: Yes, in sl
Chi Aho: You can see the need to develop a sense of community in many of the sims in sl
Chi Aho: A place where people are treated with respect
Blissful Badger: Ys, like this one!
Chi Aho: yes
Qt Core: ;)
Chi Aho: So how would you encourage that at sims where this is not the case?
Chi Aho: Hello, Susi
--BELL--
Blissful Badger: Meet, communicate, talk regularly, create pojects that engage the members
Qt Core: Hi Susi
Susi Alcott: _/!\_ all
Blissful Badger: who is the Guardina for this session?
Yakuzza Lethecus: fefonz
Qt Core: hi Yaku
Susi Alcott: Hi Yaku
Chi Aho: Hello, Yaku
Blissful Badger: sorry I ahve to come and leave so quickly. Must do my laundry
Qt Core: bye
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye bliss
Susi Alcott: (not writing any nobel; Av stucked to this movement)
Yakuzza Lethecus things storm did a wonderful job in making these natural and calming place
Susi Alcott: anybody interesting in the topic 'opennenness' ?
Chi Aho: What would you define as openness?
Susi Alcott: well; that I'de like to speak about
Chi Aho: by all means
Susi Alcott: my reason to that is cuz I've been (as my main Av Star), been accused to be too open and to take the opennennes to be too obvious...
Susi Alcott: and I have suffered huge much for that
Chi Aho: Susi, what do you mean by "openness"
Chi Aho: ?
Susi Alcott: ...as to me, opennennes is that when one speaks out, one speaks what one truly thinks and so...
Chi Aho: You mean "outspoken" then; ok
Susi Alcott: that wont hide things from words...and specially dont speak otherwise than thinks
Chi Aho: What about tactfulness?
Susi Alcott: well...that when speaks speaks with open mind and heart...not hiding things to be 'behind thoghts'
Chi Aho: Being tactful means sometimes not saying what is on your mind at the moment
Susi Alcott: as I cannot see anything to be wrong with that...
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey bruce
Susi Alcott: Hi Bruce
Chi Aho: Saying what is on your mind all the time can sometimes hurt other people
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Susi, Chi, Qt, and Yaku.
Chi Aho: hi, Bruce
Susi Alcott: well...you Qt and you Yaku have heared me for quite a long time
Qt Core: there are even form issues, finding ways to tell things, still true but in ways the listener could "digest"
Susi Alcott: so would you mind to help me to understand why I'm accused of the opennenness that it's bad thing
Susi Alcott: ah yes; that I also mean, that to speak straightly when speaks
Chi Aho: Ask yourself Susi, why does always speaking your mind have priority over other people's feelings?
Susi Alcott: not with riddles; that's imo to be open
Susi Alcott: well; as that's the point; I've kept my mouth from many things I've been 'given' here in Pab
Susi Alcott: that's why I'm still confused for those accuses
Chi Aho: ok; sometimes I decide to keep my own mouth shut - which is often better
--BELL--
Bruce Mowbray hopes that all will observe the 90 sec break.
Bruce Mowbray listens intently.
Chi Aho still wondering why Susi needs always to speak her mind
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Cal.
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi calvino
Susi Alcott: well...I have not done so like I told; kept my mouth from many things
Qt Core: hi Cal
Yakuzza Lethecus: i wonder how to learn to elaborate on thoughts of confusion without others
Susi Alcott: as when I joined , I was told that in PaB it's friendly and open discussions
Darren Islar: hi everyone :)
Susi Alcott: so I trueted to that
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey darren
Susi Alcott: Hello Cal and Darren
Qt Core: i usually feel like i censure most of what i think, especially if it is humor before telling it
Susi Alcott: well...I've born to the society where ppl either keep quiet, or if speaks out, speaks one's true mind
Susi Alcott: to me opennennes is to be honest
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Darren.
Qt Core: and even then, speaking especially about pab a few hours after the session start to doubt about having told too much
Darren Islar: hi Bruce
Susi Alcott: I myself have been said such things that are not even true, but opposite to what one things; that is imo to lie
Chi Aho: Hello, Darren
Darren Islar: hi Chi
Susi Alcott: so; to me it's obvious to speak my mind...
Yakuzza Lethecus: nabend bertram
Darren Islar: hi Bert
Susi Alcott: ah ..ok
Bertram Jacobus: hy everybody ! ... :-)
Susi Alcott: but this before I go;
Qt Core: hi bert (found a semi formal outfit i see ;-) )
Bertram Jacobus: hehe. right qt - or even : not so formal (?) ... :-)
Susi Alcott: I've never intened to insult or hurt anybody, and I'de been gratefull only if I'de been told if I've hurted somebody, that I could've try to find better words or so, but to get this accuses withouth any telling what I did wrong...but yes; dont bother you more now
Susi Alcott: enjoy your time
Bertram Jacobus: oops ?
Calvino Rabeni: One of the things that happened in the recent PaB group - asking what one's personal feeling of shame might be concerned with ... and accidentally hurting others was a common part of it
Chi Aho is puzzled by this conversation and has no idea what people are talking about
Bertram Jacobus: i´m with you chi ! same here :-)
Calvino Rabeni: Yeah, there's a certain continuity .. from meeting to meeting
Calvino Rabeni: but it gets also broken a little
Calvino Rabeni: because there are different people here each time
Alfred Kelberry: hello :)
Bertram Jacobus: hey alfi ! ... :-)
Calvino Rabeni: Hi Alfred
Qt Core: Hi Alfred
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey alf! :)
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Alfred.
Alfred Kelberry: *lands*
Bertram Jacobus: a flying box - whaow
Darren Islar: hey Alf
Yakuzza Lethecus: what´s on ur mind today boxy ?
Alfred Kelberry: good to see you all
Calvino Rabeni: I like that nickname Boxy :)
Alfred Kelberry: :)
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: It seems the Pool is open ... earlier the topics of Openness and Shame were tossed into it
Calvino Rabeni: I'm not sure if they are still floating around
Alfred Kelberry: they do now :)
Yakuzza Lethecus couldn´t drop those
Yakuzza Lethecus susi triggered my own experiences of uncommunicatable thoughts
Alfred Kelberry: susi?
Bruce Mowbray: Although I only came into the middle of the conversation, my own reactive patterns of shame were somewhat triggered. . .
Calvino Rabeni: There are lots of different reasons thoughts might seem uncommunicable ?
Bruce Mowbray: felt empathy with what Susi was saying - and for her confusion.
Bruce Mowbray: (although not understanding why she felt that).
Calvino Rabeni: Sure, well the other side of the coin sounds better Bruce -- empathy, connection, and courage
Calvino Rabeni: those are the other side of the shame coun
Calvino Rabeni: coin
Calvino Rabeni: same coin, I think :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: stuckness appears as soon as you don´t want to harm others but being defined as harming by others drawing their values differently, unknowing where those are communication gets stuck for me
Bruce Mowbray: and joy -- especially joy for the other person's happiness.
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Calvino Rabeni: Although in my opinion we don't learn to think better by only looking at the bright side of the coin
Darren Islar: maybe we need to except that we can hurt people without knowing it
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Bertram Jacobus: [brb]
Calvino Rabeni: or even sometimes - gasp - accidentaly - on purpose
Darren Islar: yes
Calvino Rabeni: like that feeling one has sometimes of being slightly "out of control"
Darren Islar: right :)
Darren Islar: that happens also
Calvino Rabeni: (as if there were someone who could control things perfectly)
Qt Core: and with difference of language and culture too it quite easy too (the accidental part)
Darren Islar: I think it is important to be able to notice it as far as possible (that is if we know about it) and to be open to the ones that got hurt (f we hurtg accidently)
Darren Islar: *hurt
Bruce Mowbray recalls the Mind Training practice: Drive all blame into one (into one's self?)
Alfred Kelberry: it helps for the hurting side to be open as well :)
Calvino Rabeni: Open communication is very nuanced and delicate - a constant feeling negotiation betwen people about safe boundaries
Calvino Rabeni: and as we know it changes from day to day and even moment to moment
Alfred Kelberry: bruce, where is it from?
Bertram Jacobus: [back]
Darren Islar: and lifted :)
Alfred Kelberry: hi, satia :)
Satia Ruby: Hi alfred :)
Darren Islar: hi Satia
Bertram Jacobus: hoi sweetie :-)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey satia
Bruce Mowbray: From Seven Points of Mind Training -- a very old Buddhist practice.
Satia Ruby: hi darren
Satia Ruby: hi bert
Satia Ruby: hi yakuzza
Bertram Jacobus: hi zon ! :-)
Bruce Mowbray: sometimes referred to as Mind Training in Seven Points. HiZon. Hi, Satia.
Qt Core: Hi Satia, Zon
Darren Islar: hi Zon
Zon Kwan: hey all
Satia Ruby: hi Qt
Darren Islar: hi Mira
--BELL--
Miralee Munro: Hello Darren ....
Bruce Mowbray: but my point wasn't so much about the Mind Training practice as about blaming -- and how to tame that.
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey miralee
Miralee Munro: good morning everyone
Alfred Kelberry: good point on safe boundaries. that's why dropping is important. being yourself is not easy.
Darren Islar: taming shame ? :)
Bruce Mowbray: shall we respect the 90 secs, please.
Bertram Jacobus: hi miralee ! :-)
Qt Core: have to go, bye all have fun and don't cut yourself with word too much ;-)
Alfred Kelberry: *oops*
Bertram Jacobus: [oops - sry] ...
Darren Islar: bye QT (sorry Bruce)
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: bye qt :-)
Darren Islar: the fifth bell
Bruce Mowbray: thanks everyone -- and Hi Miralee.
Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Qt.
Miralee Munro smiles
Miralee Munro: Before I join the group, may I tell you all something?
Zon Kwan: please
Bruce Mowbray: please do, Miralee.
Darren Islar: sure
Miralee Munro: Last week, I happened to be online as my alt - Grace Yeu - and I also happened to be naked as that alt
Miralee Munro: when I spoke to Cal, he said they were having a discussion about nudity here
Miralee Munro: so I came along to join in
Zon Kwan: but u r dressed ?
Miralee Munro: If I am ever somewhere as my alt, and see anyone I know, I always announce myself to them
Bruce Mowbray: ;-) -- and beautifully dressed, too.
Miralee Munro: Rhiannon and Cal were the only people I 'know' here, so they were the only two people I announced myself to.
Miralee Munro: Grace Yeu was created to give me some 'me time' from Perfect Paradise
Miralee Munro: not to deceive anyone.
Bruce Mowbray: Please be welcome, Miralee. I would like to hear whatever you have to contribute.
Miralee Munro: So I apologise if anyone felt deceived by me being here as Grace.
Zon Kwan: no worries
Miralee Munro: I just wanted to clear that up.
Darren Islar: I wasn't there, so no apologies needed on my account
Miralee Munro: May I join the circle now?
Darren Islar: sure
Bruce Mowbray: ;-) All's good.
Calvino Rabeni: Yes Please join
Zon Kwan: and this is sl
Miralee Munro: I didn't come to deceive, I came to talk about nudity.
Calvino Rabeni: Things get complicated in a group this size :)
Calvino Rabeni: OK, earlier we were talking about openness ... it seems related to nudity too
Miralee Munro: Chi felt particularly aggrieved ... and since they knew I was Miralee and not Grace ... I can only assume that they themselves are an alt who knows me as Miralee .... but who chooses to keep their own identity secret.
Bertram Jacobus: hey ari !
Calvino Rabeni: DO people feel nudity is symbolic of openness?
Calvino Rabeni: Hi Arisia :)
Arisia Vita: Hi all!
Miralee Munro: Yes, I certainly do.
Darren Islar: hi Ari
Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Arisia and Zobeid.
Darren Islar: hi Zobeid
Darren Islar: or shame
Calvino Rabeni: It could be symbolic, yes ... but could be just another costume or disguise?
Satia Ruby: hi ari
Zon Kwan: what is opneness?
Miralee Munro: I used to live on a nude beach in real life
Yakuzza Lethecus: hello arisia
Yakuzza Lethecus: and zobeid
Arisia Vita: so good to see you all again
Zon Kwan: shuold we be like open books to everyone ?
Miralee Munro: and from that I experienced what it was like to reveal myself completely ... there is a certain vulnerability to it.
Miralee Munro: A costume or a disguise is something we 'cloak' ourselves with, isn't it Cal?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Arisia Vita: a mask
Bertram Jacobus: i like to be open as long as it hurts nobody
Calvino Rabeni: In sl nudity doesn't actually show anything
Calvino Rabeni: @bert yes
Bruce Mowbray: I have experienced the freedom and vulnerability you speak of, Miralee. - while being naked with others.
Miralee Munro: Zon, I don't believe we have an obligation to be like open books to everyone ... but it shouldn't be an 'offence' to reveal ourselves either.
Miralee Munro: When you go naked, you do see how much we protect ourselves with clothes.
Miralee Munro: How we assume an aura of authority with a business suit or expensive jewellery ... adorn ourselves with 'power'.
Calvino Rabeni: But it might be an offence - Mira - you could present something that feels perfectly OK and the other person has for their own reason, a reaction of pain or discomfort
Zon Kwan: someone who is very repressed might take it as an offence
Miralee Munro: But why would a naked body give offence?
Darren Islar: to some it feels like shame, being nude
Calvino Rabeni: And it would BE an offence]
Calvino Rabeni: to do something to offend someone
Miralee Munro: Maybe their repression is more of an 'offence' ... against nature.
Calvino Rabeni: like going to a muslim temple with a cartoon
Miralee Munro: I would say that being teaught the naked body is sinful is more of an offence.
Darren Islar: openess-shame-vulnerability, interesting key-word if it comes to nudity
Bruce Mowbray: one has to first be "offendable" (which means reactive in some way) in order to be offended.
Miralee Munro nods @ Bruce
Calvino Rabeni: The meaning of what I do, is not mine to define, it is a social thing
Zon Kwan: should we tolerate those who are not tolerant ?
--BELL--
Miralee Munro: We are born naked ... if 'god' found nudity so shameful, why didn't he make it so that we were worn with a suit of clothes on?
Darren Islar: when you are tought to be ashamed for it, then you probably are (at first), even though you know it is rubbish
Zon Kwan: i agree with Cal, in social cooperations surroundings should also be considered
Bertram Jacobus: agree darren
Darren Islar: but it is interesting to see that
Darren Islar: and acknowledge it
Darren Islar: which can lead to more openess
Calvino Rabeni: When openness goes too far, people get hurt, and have to close down again
Darren Islar: (sorry Bruce, didn't notice, normally I do :()
Miralee Munro: I just think it's an interesting social experiment .... if the shame and embarrassment at being 'totally revealed' could be taken away ... how people feel about themselves if they all did go naked.
Zon Kwan: but there is nothing to be a shamed of in nudity itself
Calvino Rabeni: openness is a constantly negotiated flexible boundary
Darren Islar: right Cal
Calvino Rabeni: and what can be said, depends on the state of consciousness of those present
Darren Islar: showing yoru vulnerability is a risk you take
Calvino Rabeni: which is rather ephemeral and changes
Zon Kwan: yes
Calvino Rabeni: yes, vulnerability is a risk
Miralee Munro: I know that when I lived on this nude beach,
Calvino Rabeni: but so is being closed, a different kind of risk
Miralee Munro: it helped me realise that we are all the same
Calvino Rabeni: every living thing is partly open partly closed
Miralee Munro: we had a judge who used to go there
Darren Islar: true also
Miralee Munro: and me, as a simple hippy, was just the same as him
Calvino Rabeni: and its important to ajust the openness biologiclly
Miralee Munro: when we were both walking along the beach naked.
Zon Kwan: if we poke openly our hearts one day..without social filter... we woud not have many friends
Zon Kwan: spoke
Miralee Munro: But that
Miralee Munro: is more about feelings Zon
Alfred Kelberry: *sneaks out quietly*
Darren Islar: say bye quietly :)
Darren Islar: syas
Calvino Rabeni: Bye Boxy
Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Alfred.
Darren Islar: says (how how can that word be !!!)
Miralee Munro: I suppose nudity is too ... about feelings ... about how we feel about ourselves.
Darren Islar: yes that is the interesting part
Darren Islar: but that can be anything
Miralee Munro: Which I find interesting ... given in here ... everyone has a great body, so there is nothing to feel embarrassed about.
Zon Kwan: perhaps we all should try nakedness
Darren Islar: even shame
Miralee Munro: But still, feel people constrained about taking their clothes off in here.
Darren Islar: and still I feel different being naked in sl :)
Darren Islar: it triggers 'learned' things
Miralee Munro nods
Miralee Munro: I've known people in SL to go and hide behind bushes to change etc.
Zon Kwan: lol
Bruce Mowbray thinks -- if we're going to get naked, I'm going to need to find myself a "unit" (as Pamala Clift calls it.
Miralee Munro: lol
Zon Kwan: i have a spare
Miralee Munro: lol
Bruce Mowbray: ironies upon ironies....
Calvino Rabeni: hehheh bruce
Calvino Rabeni: Isuppose those units are handy
Bruce Mowbray agrees with Darren -- I do also feel "different" wehen I am naked in SL.
Zon Kwan: i think nudeness is quite naturall, is it somehow a tabu in american culture ?
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Calvino Rabeni: how about in europe?
Zon Kwan: well, in north we go to sauna naked
Bruce Mowbray: The general culture frowns on nakedness - but individuals practice it all the time, and relish it (SOME individuals, like myself).
Calvino Rabeni: saunas help
Calvino Rabeni: but not in the supermarket
Zon Kwan: from child
Bruce Mowbray: One of the joys of being a hermit is being able to naked inside and out - whenever I wish to (if it's warm enough).
Miralee Munro: Are you a hermit Bruce?
Bruce Mowbray: yes, I am.
Miralee Munro: How fascinating.
Bruce Mowbray: and in the summertime, it's great to run around on my place with no clothes on.
Miralee Munro: I've often thought of becoming a recluse in real life.
Bruce Mowbray: also to go skinny dipping - -
Miralee Munro: I've never really understood the distinction between nude and naked.
Miralee Munro: I prefer naked myself.
Zon Kwan: is there
Bruce Mowbray: I have a couple of neighbors who love to go skinny dipping in a creek nearby the farm -- great fun to go together.
Miralee Munro: I have to go in a couple of minutes
Miralee Munro: beginning of a working day for me
Zon Kwan: slips away and waves...
Miralee Munro: 6.30am
Bertram Jacobus: have a nice day miralee ! *wave* ...
Miralee Munro: Thursday
Calvino Rabeni: Bye Zon
Darren Islar: bye Zon
Darren Islar: (for the record)
Miralee Munro throws her honey bunny a kiss
Bruce Mowbray: Thank you for joining us and for giving us your viewpoint -- and things to thinl about, Miralee.
Bruce Mowbray: think*
Miralee Munro: Thanks for the interesting discussion.
Miralee Munro: XXXXXX
Darren Islar: bue Mira :)
Darren Islar: bye
Bertram Jacobus: boo :o)
Darren Islar: (I need typinglessons)
Miralee Munro: Adieu.
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye mira
Bertram Jacobus: (i don´t believe that darren) :o)
Arisia Vita: bye Mira
--BELL--
Bruce Mowbray: As I look back on my life, I am more "ashamed" about things I did NOT do than about what I did do.
Darren Islar: I guess it is just my frustration Bert :)
Darren Islar: interesting viewpoint
Bruce Mowbray: I am ashamed that out of reactive fear I did not take action to help someone.
Bruce Mowbray: especially someone who might have been more vulnerable than myself -- like a child.
Darren Islar is looking at Bruce wondering about the story behind his words
Bruce Mowbray: a child being verbally abused by its parent in a check-out line at the supermarket....
Bruce Mowbray: Why didn't I do something to let that child know. . .
Bruce Mowbray: fear.
Bruce Mowbray: my own fear,
Chi Aho: You probably did the right thing by minding your own business, Bruce - which is what more people should do
Darren Islar: we seem to check how people react in our environment
Bruce Mowbray: I didn't really mind my own business. . . I wished for days afterward that I'd done something --- and still wish that.
Darren Islar is now wondering about Chi's words ??
Darren Islar: I understand Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: I wish that when the farmer across the road was cutting down his beautiful trees, that I'd done more to save them. . .
Bruce Mowbray: and all I did was post a webpage about it.
Darren Islar: like it is different to be naked on a nude beach then in a 'normal' supermarket
Bruce Mowbray: mmmm, good point, Darren.
Calvino Rabeni: My business ... your business ... OUR business ...
Calvino Rabeni: What a complicated thing
Darren Islar: :)
Bruce Mowbray: but there are some norms of the society that simply go against my grain -- like child abuse and deforestation. and I don't care if it is the parent's child or the farmer's forest -- possession of child or forest doesn't matter. . . the abuse matters.
Darren Islar: yes we have a responsibility for each other
Darren Islar: at the same time we might think others are doing something wrong, accussing them, while they are just doing their onw thing
Calvino Rabeni: yes :)
Darren Islar: like being naked and running around when it is warm enough :)
Bertram Jacobus: whaow - so late ! i´ll leave dears - have a nice time, ty and be well ! :-)
Arisia Vita: I must run too....
Arisia Vita: good to be with you all again
Darren Islar: bye Bert, Ari
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye bert, ari
Bruce Mowbray: Don't know if this is appropriate, but I will show you the webpage I posted - -
Bruce Mowbray: http://hermitdog.com/TreeMurder/TreeMurder.htm
Bruce Mowbray: Goodbye to all who left while I was looking that up. ;-)
Satia Ruby: .i have to leave too :) nini all :)
Darren Islar: bye Satia
Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Satia.
Bruce Mowbray: bye, aristia.
Bruce Mowbray: The forest was so thick, that I used to take off all of my clothes and hike for a mile on the other side of it -- where no one from the road could see. . .
Bruce Mowbray: (so there's a tie-in with both nudity and shame. . . but also, responsibility for nature.
Calvino Rabeni likes tie-ins
Chi Aho: I think that people who want to take their clothes off do not feel free in rl
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Darren Islar: interesting viewpoint
Darren Islar: but I think it depends on the person
Darren Islar: but for some, maybe
Bruce Mowbray: I was taught as a child to be very ashamed of my body -- and, of course, I was. . . until I grew up and learned better.
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: Some people think, or feel better to think, that shame is only something people are taught, and without that teaching , would feel perfect or something like it
Bruce Mowbray: all I know is that I had to un-learn the shame that my mother taught me to feel.
Bruce Mowbray: and eventually I learned compassion for her -- having been raised by very up-tight nuns in the 1920's.
Bruce Mowbray: they destroyed her, in a way.
Bruce Mowbray: so -- compassion for them, also. . . (many layers/causes)...
Bruce Mowbray: so much fear.
Calvino Rabeni: yes lots of layers
Bruce Mowbray: almost 6 p.m. here. . . I'm off to scratch up dinner. THANK YOU to everyone. . .
Bruce Mowbray: and hey you Americans: Happy Thanksgiving!
Darren Islar: thank you Bruce, bye :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: happy thanksgiving
Calvino Rabeni: what about this --- to unlearn shame is to re-learn some other ways of being connected with people and nature
Darren Islar: need to go too
Darren Islar: ah, and that is the buddhist way we were tlking about yesterday
Calvino Rabeni: Bye everyone
Darren Islar: bye Cal, Yaku :)
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye darren
Calvino Rabeni - Exit Stage Left