Bleu Oleander: hi Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bleu! :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Hokon, Bruce, Pema :)
--BELL--
Hokon Cazalet: hi =)
Bleu Oleander: hi Bruce, Pema, Hokon
Pema Pera: Hi Eliza, Bleu, Bruce, Hokon!
Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Bleu, Eliza Pema, Hokon.
Pema Pera: Hi Maxine!
Eliza Madrigal: :) Great tag, Hokon
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Maxine :)
Bleu Oleander: hi Maxine
Hokon Cazalet: lol ty
Maxine Walden: hi, Pema and all
Hokon Cazalet: MWHAHAHA!!!
Maxine Walden: hi, Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: (thought to be polite with the cloud but I know Bleu doesn't mind :))
Bleu Oleander: loves sitting beside such emotion :)
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Yaku.
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ya :)
Bleu Oleander: hi Yaku
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
Pema Pera: Hi Yakuzza!
Maxine Walden: hi, Yaku
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Sharry.
Pema Pera: Hi Sharry, Zen, Baeric!
Baeric Constantine: Greetings all
Hokon Cazalet: hi =)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen, Sharry and Baeric :) Nice to see you again
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Baeric and Zen.
Bleu Oleander: Hi Sharry, Baeric, Zen
Sharry Ragu: Hi Eliza :)) Pema, Bruce.. oh.. well all :))
Hokon Cazalet: =)
Maxine Walden: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: Hi all :)
Eliza Madrigal: brb... catching the rest of reports...
Pema Pera: (did somebody already claim the chat log?)
Baeric Constantine: Do the logs get posted anyplace for later reading?
Pema Pera: (and if not, would somebody like to volunteer to post the log?)
Pema Pera: thanks a lot, Blue!
Eliza Madrigal: heheh...
Pema Pera: hahaha
Pema Pera: I'll leave it to the two of you to fight it out
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks Bleu and Zen :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, of course baeric
Pema Pera: Yes, Baeric
Pema Pera: on http://wiki.playasbeing.org/Chat_Logs/2010/11
Pema Pera: you can find the logs
Pema Pera: the last one, for example, lives on http://wiki.playasbeing.org/Chat_Logs/2010/11/2010.11.05_06%3a00_-_Magic_of_Time_Session
Pema Pera: I really enjoyed reading the reports today, on http://wiki.playasbeing.org/index.php?title=PaB_Books/Magic_of_Time/Time_Sessions/Weekly_Reports/2010%2F%2F11%2F%2F12:_Reports
Pema Pera: for example, reading Bruce's contribution, I could almost physical feel your engagement . . .
Baeric Constantine: ty Perma
Pema Pera: and the "I used to", wow, what a great sense of dropping . . . !!
Eliza Madrigal: stunning report Bruce ... thank you for rhat openness
Bruce Mowbray: it's still a work in progress, of course. . .
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Maxine Walden: yes, very moving, Bruce
Sharry Ragu: :))
Baeric Constantine: like life Bruce
Baeric Constantine: hi Fef
Pema Pera: Hi there, Fefonz!
Eliza Madrigal: I somehow thought of shadows reading your report Maxine...
Bruce Mowbray would prefer to move through life without leaving any traces, like a bird flying . . .
Fefonz Quan: Hi Pema
Sharry Ragu wave a hello to Fefonz
Pema Pera: great image, Bruce!
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Fef.
Zen Arado: Hi Fef
Eliza Madrigal: Namaste Fef :)
Fefonz Quan: Hi Pema! Hi all
Baeric Constantine: Indeedabl;e Bruce... but think its not really possible
Bruce Mowbray: mmmm....
Bruce Mowbray: Maybe like Maxine's shadows. . .
Eliza Madrigal: the way the beauty of a tree and its shadow don't take anything from one another...
Maxine Walden: hmm, yes
Baeric Constantine: Oh to be Peter's shadow...and escape the sewing
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Pema Pera: hey, Adams, thanks for joining us!!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Adams :)
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Adams.
Bleu Oleander: hi Adams :)
Maxine Walden: hi, Adams, :)
Adams Rubble: Hello everyone :)
Hokon Cazalet: hi =)
Sharry Ragu: hi ya Adams :))
Zen Arado: Hi Adans:)
Baeric Constantine: Shalom, Adams
Pema Pera: Maxine, would it make sense somehow to try to see the entrapment as thoroughly immersed, embedded in the expansiveness?
--BELL--
Maxine Walden: perhaps, Pema, I had been thinking of it as being caught in an ancient inwardly directed 'reality' perhaps in part out of terror of the wider non-self-directed potential realities...and the sadness is of being caught by old definitions, perhaps fueled by the terror of the unknown
Maxine Walden: but many ways to think about these things...
Pema Pera: how does that "being caught" feel -- how fixed or perhaps a bit more open is it?
Pema Pera: like in a blanket, or in a net, or in head lights?
Maxine Walden: When one feels caught, when I feel caught, it does not feel like being caught...
Maxine Walden: it 'feels' like I am busily attending to 'what is, what I must do in the world today...'...
Zen Arado: if you notice you are caught maybe you aren't caught...
Maxine Walden: so it passes as being responsible, etc, but without the capacity to see wider perspectives...
Sharry Ragu: it sounds rather automated Maxine?
Maxine Walden: yes, Zen, seeing one's 'caughtness' is the key to liberation it seems to me
Maxine Walden: Agree, Sharry, that our 'daily, busy selves' may be rather caught in an automated 'existence' (as Pema has written about in earlier chapters, I think). The sadness comes when we can see that automation rather than be caught in it...at least for me
Eliza Madrigal nods @ Maxine.. seeing the caughtness it loses its sting....?
Pema Pera: does the sadness has a tinge of excitement too, expectation, possibilities for change?
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Brian :) Welcome back
Bruce Mowbray: welcome, Brian.
Pema Pera: hi Brian!
Maxine Walden: There is relief and gratitude for being able to see, but for me, at least currently, a great deal of sadness because of the inevitible-seeming caughtness
Zen Arado: Hi Brian
Brian Roop: thanks, bruce
Brian Roop: hello zen
Baeric Constantine: what are the links (or nexus) between automated, automaton and complacent behaviours?
Brian Roop: i am not rezzing well, will try re-entry
Fefonz Quan: mostly when most of the cages that 'catch' us are transparent
Bruce Mowbray: Is "automted liing" similar (or the same as) habituated living?
Bruce Mowbray: living*
Bleu Oleander: could one get "caught" in the illusion of liberation?
Maxine Walden: For me, Pema, when there is the possibility of change, a partial emergence from the 'caughtness'is already occurring
Zen Arado: I am caught in my habitual behaviour most of the time
Maxine Walden: I think many/most of us are thusly caught Zen, at least part of the time
Baeric Constantine: humans a re cretures of habit
Fefonz Quan: in a way 'cought' automatically mean'wanting to be some where else' - in oposition with the 'nothing is missing' sentiment
Fefonz Quan: means*
Zen Arado: good point Fef
Baeric Constantine: nothing is missing is in fact perfection which is completion
Zen Arado: happy with our 'caughtness' ?
Sharry Ragu: Bleu.. great question! :))
Eliza Madrigal: interesting question Bleu
Baeric Constantine: héhéhé :D
Baeric Constantine: caughtiness
Maxine Walden: yes, not meaning to direct attention away from the 'nothing is missing' focus, but to rest in that awareness I believe requires liberation from the caughtness
Pema Pera: I'm really curious about the sadness, Maxine, I remember you emphasizing that during the RL retreat too, in Nova Scotia, about parting, a few days before the end already . . . . do you find ways to go deeper into the sadness when you feel it, is that easy?
Pema Pera: hi Druth!
Zen Arado: having patience with caughtness
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Druth :)
Hokon Cazalet: i think it would be good to make a distinction between the different kinds of being caught up in the world, or being absorbed into it, some kinds may not be so negative
Zen Arado: Hi Druth :)
Baeric Constantine: I think we all have a measure of caughtness.... it is more how we deal with it.... that makes the difference
Brian Roop: Druth
Hokon Cazalet: hi =)
druth Vlodovic: hey all :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey druth
Sharry Ragu waves to druth :))
Baeric Constantine: Hi Druth and others that arrived
Bruce Mowbray: For me, the "objective" of spiritual practice is awareness and acceptance, not improvement.
Bleu Oleander: yes @ Hokon, caught in "flow" is definitely not negative for me
Maxine Walden: Actually, Pema, I do find myself more able to allow the sadness...to trust in not being drowned in it, trust that the sadness is a kind of mourning/recognition of our many caughtnesses, as it were
Sharry Ragu agrees with Maxine
Sharry Ragu: ooops!! Bruce rather :))
Pema Pera: allowing is such a crucial move . . . .
Maxine Walden: but initially, I think I felt a kind of terror of the sadness, as if it would swallow me up if I gave into it
Bruce Mowbray: So, Maxine, you would have to "resistance" to the caughtness - - and just be aware of it.
Bruce Mowbray: (that was supposed to be a question)
Bruce Mowbray: no resistance*
Bruce Mowbray: sry.
Hokon Cazalet: i would suggest, if one is absorbed into mere qualities or facts (ontic) aspects of the-world, this is negative, as one's Being is not fully engaged; in other words, the problem with absorbption into the-world, typically arise from one getting stuck part-way, or focusing on a mere fact or abstraction, not the totality of one's living-world
Eliza Madrigal: Hokon, yes how intersting.... stuck 'part way'
--BELL--
Maxine Walden: lovely points being brought up, and not wishing to take too much air-time, but just thinking that the sadness may be about loss, loss of the 'certainties' which go with the 'caughtness', or that as one aspect of sadness
Adams Rubble: is "caughtness" another way of saying we feel something is missing?
Hokon Cazalet: =) for mje sadness arises (but moreso anxiety) when i recognize my absorbption into meaningless things (the ontical: facts/qualtiies, abstractions, etc), a sense of loss, not only of possibilities unrealized (sadness), but moreso, that I myself am not fully I (anxiety), im still not shining, coming forth (a phenomenon of the-world)
Hokon Cazalet: id agree maxine
Maxine Walden: think so, Adams...
Eliza Madrigal: one can be caught by a kind of romanticism....then there is a let-down or shadow of a let down looming... associated with the enevidable losing that...
Sharry Ragu: Maxine, loss yes.. a loss of beliefs and value structures that become redundant??
Maxine Walden: yes, Sharry. Agree, Eliza, and I think Bleu also suggested something similar earlier...illusion ...
Zen Arado: loss of ego could make life seem meaningless?
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Pema Pera: As for some of the other reports, I loved Eliza's "That's all there is, there isn't any more."
Pema Pera: and Riddles . . .
Pema Pera: oh!
Pema Pera: hi Riddle!
Bruce Mowbray: hi, Riddle.
Eliza Madrigal: Hi RIddle! :)
Hokon Cazalet: hi riddle =)
Pema Pera: I was just going to sing your praises!
Bleu Oleander: hi Riddle
Zen Arado: hi Riddle
Pema Pera: for your wonderful report!
Riddle Sideways whispers, sorry am late
Pema Pera: Speaking about the Riddle . . .
Baeric Constantine: not necessarily illusionary though
Eliza Madrigal: thank you very much for your report, Riddle
Riddle Sideways: a work in progress
Maxine Walden: really liked your report as well, Riddle
Sharry Ragu: Zen, I tend to think that we don't lose ego, rather it becomes more in tune with reality.. it stops struggling and fantasing.. if that makes sense?? lol
Baeric Constantine wonders if he has crash-a-did or not
Baeric Constantine: nopey
Eliza Madrigal: it opens, Sharry?
Sharry Ragu: I think so Eliza
Hokon Cazalet: id agree with that eliza, was just gonna say that =)
Eliza Madrigal: yes similar sense for me too... of giving up... and a >whew<
Zen Arado: ok - a different way of ddscribing it maybe Sharry
Zen Arado: brb
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Pema Pera: (and yes, Hokon, that sense of loss when engaged in rather meaningless actions without full appreciation)
Pema Pera: many threads going on today, Riddle :-)
Eliza Madrigal: let me make you a note, Riddle, one sec...
Bleu Oleander: how does one define "meaningless actions"? Can others define for you? or do we self-define? what are the guidelines?
Hokon Cazalet: for me when i become aware of that though, i feel more anxiety, but then again, i think thats b/c im focused on my future; maybe sadness deals with it in a past sense
druth Vlodovic: I suspect "meaningful" as sometimes being a way of hiding from the world
Riddle Sideways: TY
Eliza Madrigal: YW
Bruce Mowbray: How about simply being present with the meaninglessness, with no resistance or need beyond that?
Hokon Cazalet: there are some common meaningful events, such as sharing time with a friend, but for specifics, i think it will be personally relative (not to say meaning is relative, just how it is found)
Bruce Mowbray: simply be aware that something seems meaningless.
Sharry Ragu: why... because I can ;)
Hokon Cazalet: i think that involves bruce, a disengagment with Being-in-the-world, a fracturing
Bleu Oleander: universal meaning?
Bleu Oleander: isn't meaning subjective?
Hokon Cazalet: and one values the meaningless, cuz one focuses it voluntary, to be merely present-at-hand
Hokon Cazalet: id say its niether subjective nor objective, that dualism is an abstraction of living-experience, and doesnt work well with human issues like meaning
Maxine Walden: bleu, re your question, my 'caught' self may be 'certain' that I could define meaningful for you; my wider self would be clear that only you can define that...and that complexities and context would alter 'meaning'
Sharry Ragu: however, if we perceive everything as meaningful, are we not projecting our beliefs when we do that??
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, nice Maxine...
Hokon Cazalet: if meaning is subjective, then so is ethics and aesthetics, which leads to huge problems
Bleu Oleander: agree Maxine
Maxine Walden: :)
Baeric Constantine: meaning can be a combination of objective and subjective
Bruce Mowbray: What if the "subject" expands to include all that is -- (Being) -- ? Is that not also a way of engaging the world?
Pema Pera: I was thinking just that, Bruce :-)
Brian Roop: but in a meaningful way?
druth Vlodovic: excessive meaning removes enjoyment from life, also with negative consequences
Hokon Cazalet: id say bruce, things being-present-at-hand is a mere mode of Being, not its root meaning
Hokon Cazalet: but yes, the subject has to step outside of itself, and that is how it engages the world
Brian Roop: how does the subject step outside itself?
Sharry Ragu: I wondering thought.. is everything meaningful? what does that say about spontaneous action for the pure sake of it.. without attachments..??
Hokon Cazalet: temporality is one way it does, in moving from the past into the future; another is in activity in the world, such as the use of a hammer not in its presence, but in its readiness to hand, one ecstatically looses oneself into the act
--BELL--
Baeric Constantine: spontaneity can be meaningful too...
Hokon Cazalet: the hammer and oneself now are one act
Riddle Sideways: not a stepping outside self as much as including all
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Baeric Constantine sighs at poor inet connections :P
Hokon Cazalet: hehe
Riddle Sideways: semi-like catching onto all these threads at once
Hokon Cazalet: hehe
Hokon Cazalet: we got alot of people here today
Sharry Ragu: I'm struggling with this concept.. I would think having meaning would detract from being.. experiencing in the now as meaning would overlay.. meaning (if that makes sense??)
Bruce Mowbray: It seems to me that "mening" derives from the nature of relationships. . . Could one have a relationship with the world (engage the world) merely through Being with the world?
Bruce Mowbray: meaning*
Bruce Mowbray: or IN the world?
Bruce Mowbray: or Being the World?
Maxine Walden: or could there be many concentric layers of meaning simultaneously?
Bleu Oleander: finding meaning in being
Hokon Cazalet: I think we are in a sense the world already, though im not sure how yet; sharry, id say removing meaning actually overlays an attitude upon Being, the scientific-theoretical attitude of a spectator looking upon facts and Things
Fefonz Quan: Sharry, maybe our interpretation of meaningful is slightly off? we tend to give it a lot of weight, burden, seriousness
Sharry Ragu: oh, like meaning would colour the lens of perception perhaps??
Fefonz Quan: \maybe meaningful don't have to be all those things
Sharry Ragu nods to Fefonz
Hokon Cazalet: the world as meaningless, as simply "is" assumes a meaning to Being, the theoretical attitude
Hokon Cazalet: this meaning is not the only view of Being, nor self-evidently the right one
Fefonz Quan: in other jargon it's like the difference between holy and common\
Hokon Cazalet: we take it as self-evident today due to modern philosophy, the division between the subject and Object
Brian Roop: i like to think there's a world in-here (me) and a world out-there (everything and everybody else)
Brian Roop: Meaning involves the interface between those worlds
Bruce Mowbray: a separation between the two, then, Brian?
Maxine Walden: so many interesting perspectives and facets in this discussion
Hokon Cazalet: "objective" prior to the 1600s was not used to mean something authorativie, but actually, was used along-side with "relative" "opinion"
Brian Roop: well, yes and no
Hokon Cazalet: objectivity, and Presence as the definition of knowledge and Being, is a recent change
Bruce Mowbray likes "yes and no" !
Brian Roop: it's like leaving my house, meaning will govern my purpose
Brian Roop: my direction
Riddle Sideways: hokon, we usually do take it, but for this exercise let's not have subject/object seperation
Fefonz Quan: I believe we tend to tag 'meaning' to theorethical ideas more than to daily routine activities
Hokon Cazalet: well i see the subject/object division as key to many views espoused here, but ok
Brian Roop: i wouldn't agree with Fefonz
Sharry Ragu: gosh.. maybe I'm coming at this backward.. but I would think the more you encounter being, the more meaning you experience...
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Fefonz Quan: and by that just impose an artificial heirarchy about our whole actions in life
Brian Roop: the happiness with which i address myself to the smallest everyday tasks and relationships is proportionate to their meaning for me
Hokon Cazalet: id agree fefonz
Eliza Madrigal: yes just move from one way of capturing 'things' to another
Eliza Madrigal: still caught :)
Eliza Madrigal: caught in capturing :)
Fefonz Quan: sometimes i find myself just resting and reading a book and feeling as happy as ever. yet there is nomeaning' there
Sharry Ragu: :))
Maxine Walden: :) Eliza
Fefonz Quan: no 'meaning'
Fefonz Quan: *
Hokon Cazalet: your happy, so it does have meaning, its positive =)
Fefonz Quan: still coughing :)
Sharry Ragu: yes Fefonz.. nicely conveyed, thank you
Bruce Mowbray: a sense of "nothing needed" in that experience, then?
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Fefonz Quan nods, ,aybe
Riddle Sideways: "caught" keeps giving me the image of those chinese finger traps
Brian Roop: how do you choose the book you would read?
Hokon Cazalet: hehe riddle
Pema Pera: hi Crusty!
Riddle Sideways: if you relax, you're free
Eliza Madrigal: feels like that.... hooked... hmmm yes
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Christmas Crusty
Bruce Mowbray suspects that his notions of "freedom" are quite romantic and illusory.
Crusty Goldshark: hi guys
Bruce Mowbray: traps in themselves, perhaps.
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Crusty.
Hokon Cazalet: i think freedom can be bruce
Eliza Madrigal: yes notions of anything? ...
Hokon Cazalet: if freedom means autonomy, being-in-yourself
Hokon Cazalet: being-in-itself
Bruce Mowbray takes a closer look at Crusty's prayer wheel.
Pema Pera: We're approaching the hour -- thank you all for your comments!
Pema Pera: next week we will again look at chapter 9
Bleu Oleander: ty Pema!
Maxine Walden: I will need to go soon...nice conversation...
Pema Pera: http://wiki.playasbeing.org/PaB_Books/Magic_of_Time/9._Nothing_Needed
Fefonz Quan: thanks for a wonderful chapter 9
Eliza Madrigal: Thank you everyone, for another interesting discussion... now we have a week for it to settle....
Crusty Goldshark: You are welcome - probably made more sense today than ever before
Zen Arado: thanks all
Sharry Ragu: thank you all :))
Eliza Madrigal: to relaaaaxxxx
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Maxine Walden: thanks everyone
Riddle Sideways: yes, thank you all
Bruce Mowbray: Thanks, everyone -- a multi-levels conversation today.
Pema Pera: I'll have to take off, sorry, midnight here in Tokyo
Adams Rubble: Thank you everyone :0
Fefonz Quan: Thanks all, and a wondeful weekend.
--BELL--
Adams Rubble: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Night Pema, Bye Maxine
Bruce Mowbray: g'night, Pema
Crusty Goldshark: Bye guys
Adams Rubble: bye eberyone, night Pema
Bleu Oleander: bye all who are leaving :)
Pema Pera: night/day everybody!
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Fef, Adams, and all who must go
Crusty Goldshark: I am staying for the fish
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Eliza Madrigal: so long and thanks...
Fefonz Quan: _/!\_
Baeric Constantine: by e :) thoswe leaving
Brian Roop: need to go too, rl life job
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Brian :)
Crusty Goldshark: is that elephant related to ganesh?