2010.11.29 13:00 - Layers and Prayers

The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal.
Funnily relevant to this discussion is a recent TED talk: http://www.ted.com/talks/heribert_watzke_the_brain_in_your_gut.html

Yakuzza Lethecus: hey eliza
Yakuzza Lethecus: aggers not there ?
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ya :)
Eliza Madrigal: Yes, I miss Agatha!
Eliza Madrigal: She wasn't feeling well before, but now it has been a while...
Eliza Madrigal: How are you Yakuzza? :)

Eliza Madrigal: Hello Arabella! :)
arabella Ella: Hiya!
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey ara
Yakuzza Lethecus: sry eliza, i was making some food ;o)
Eliza Madrigal: :) That's okay Ya
Eliza Madrigal: (I asked Ya how he was doing quite a while ago, hah)
arabella Ella: has Aphro been freed yet?
Eliza Madrigal: Not that I know of unfortunately
Yakuzza Lethecus: still frozen 106m away
Eliza Madrigal: hah, radar
Yakuzza Lethecus: i love the radar in phoenix
Eliza Madrigal: I continually forget about it
Eliza Madrigal: How are you Arabella? All well
Eliza Madrigal: I hope
arabella Ella: could u tell me how to use radar with phoenix please Yaku?
arabella Ella: cos i dont see Aphro on mine?
arabella Ella: I am fine thanks Eliza but freezing in England at the moment!
Yakuzza Lethecus: you might have to increase the draw distance
Eliza Madrigal: You get to use your nice coats then :) I have to wait for trips to use sweaters and such
Yakuzza Lethecus: which is bad for ur laptop
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Mick! :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: ctrl + p
Mickorod Renard: hii
Yakuzza Lethecus: graphics
Yakuzza Lethecus: heck mick
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey*
arabella Ella: My nice coats are all at home as I am economical with my luggage when I travel :(
Eliza Madrigal: alas
Eliza Madrigal: Hope your trip is fun otherwise?
arabella Ella: i just have to wear nearly all the stuff I have as layers
arabella Ella: yes i really like it here and am enjoying it lots
arabella Ella: Hiya Mick
Eliza Madrigal: with baggage fees now layers makes far more sense than packing for all occasions :)
arabella Ella: yes altho i left home when it was 30 degrees there he he
Eliza Madrigal smiles
arabella Ella: now it is 20 at home and minus 4 here
arabella Ella: LOL
Eliza Madrigal: haha
arabella Ella: big difference
Eliza Madrigal: yes
arabella Ella: do you have snow Yaku?
Mickorod Renard: should be minus 20 by the end of the week
Eliza Madrigal: ooo brrr
Yakuzza Lethecus: yeah, we have snow :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: - 2 degree´s celsius

Eliza Madrigal: Wonderful news re Fef, for those who haven't read email yet.... go peek :)
Mickorod Renard: yes super news
--BELL--
arabella Ella: where should we peek pls?
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, emails...
arabella Ella: ah ... altho i can guess ... excellent news then
Eliza Madrigal: :))
 

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Calvino!
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey cal
Calvino Rabeni: :) everyone hello!
arabella Ella: Hiya Calvino!
Eliza Madrigal: Does anyone have a topic on their mind today?
Mickorod Renard: hi cal
Mickorod Renard: dont feel well enough to think
Yakuzza Lethecus: can we ever stop thinking ?
arabella Ella: owww Mick
Calvino Rabeni: but well enough to feel, Mick :)
Mickorod Renard: :)
arabella Ella: and my brain is frozen with the cold in england at the moment!
Eliza Madrigal: Sorry to hear that Mick, have a cold? :(
Mickorod Renard: i dunno,,tum feels yuky
Mickorod Renard: am now in bed
Eliza Madrigal: Oh :(
Mickorod Renard: :(
Eliza Madrigal: Well we'll all keep you company at least
Mickorod Renard: ty,,but i will go sleep soon
Eliza Madrigal: best thing
Eliza Madrigal: sleep is healing

Yakuzza Lethecus: well, when i have the laptop in bed i often just dooze away :)
Mickorod Renard: has anyone seen pila or bruce?
Eliza Madrigal: yes we know Ya.. haha
Eliza Madrigal: ;-)
Eliza Madrigal giggles remembering homework group and ya snoozing...

Eliza Madrigal: I haven't seen either today. Was there i ching?
Mickorod Renard: i dont know
arabella Ella: i dont think so mick
arabella Ella: our session is on 15/12
Mickorod Renard: yes
arabella Ella: and the other session is generally one week earlier
arabella Ella: around 8/12 approx
Mickorod Renard: true
arabella Ella: may I ask
Mickorod Renard: i havnt seen either for a week or more
arabella Ella: what is the smaller frame near Aphro's?
Eliza Madrigal: I've been slightly more regular with i ching, though always check my throws now with Yakuzza's cheat page
arabella Ella: he he
Mickorod Renard: wow
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, I have no idea about the second poster Ara.. hm
arabella Ella: Yaku's remark reminded me I have that on my phone too thanks Yaku!
arabella Ella: I think it is Aphro too
Yakuzza Lethecus: well, lazyness wins but micks sticks have more style!

Calvino Rabeni is multi-tasking,making an omelette
Eliza Madrigal: yes, can't replace tangibility and texture....
arabella Ella: yes Mick's sticks really have style and class
Eliza Madrigal: :) mushrooms, Cal?
Mickorod Renard: :)
arabella Ella: thanks Mick
Calvino Rabeni: But I do have a topic in mind, one that ties into many other topics
arabella Ella: oh go on then Cal
Calvino Rabeni: As a starting point - the observation that people don't trust their subconscious mind
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey zon
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zon :)
Zon Kwan: heya all
Calvino Rabeni: Separate I guess from the question of communicating with it, using I Ching or many other means
Eliza Madrigal: Well the subconscious mind seems to have a different kind of language?
Zon Kwan: yes one should trust his cuts
Mickorod Renard: that could be because the sub concious also tends to provide some risky thoughts too
Calvino Rabeni: And yet all inspiration and new ideas seem to come from intuition and other subconscious ways of knowing
Calvino Rabeni: what a dilemma :)
Zon Kwan: there is sunconscious and superconscious
Zon Kwan: sub*
Calvino Rabeni: OK, including superconscious
Zon Kwan: first is from memory
Calvino Rabeni: the out-of-conscious mind, or minds in the plural
Zon Kwan: habitual patterns

--BELL--

Zon Kwan: not always to be trusted
Zon Kwan: second is guidance....intuition
Eliza Madrigal: conscious thoughts seem to provide food for subconscious...
Zon Kwan: not based on memory
Eliza Madrigal: but we tend to consume it too early

arabella Ella: oh I lost your chat Cal as I crashed!
arabella Ella: could someone give me a notecard pls

Eliza Madrigal: like 'eating the seeds' rather than waiting for the crop
Eliza Madrigal: Sure, Ara, one sec :)
arabella Ella: thanks Eliza
Zon Kwan: whne u listen to ur cuts..u can make the diffence between habitual behaviour pattern and intuition
Calvino Rabeni: Cal's precariously balanced omelette spills as he tries to scroll back to make a note card
Eliza Madrigal: made and sent Cal :)
Calvino Rabeni: thanks

Zon Kwan: it ur stomach feels good..it was intuition
Mickorod Renard: dont ask about stomach
Zon Kwan: lol
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Calvino Rabeni: It seems sometimes, that many meditation practices could be used to open the door between conscious and out-of-concious minds, to integrate and create a larger mind, to use wisdom and information from outside the egoic mind
Calvino Rabeni: and yet
arabella Ella: there is definitely an interesting paradox there Cal no doubt
Calvino Rabeni: they're often used suppressively
arabella Ella: like i generally trust my intuition lots

Sorry to have missed Ara's next line while in session...

arabella Ella: but a dream emerged from my subconscious last night and it was so realistic ... a disaster scenario to keep it brief
Calvino Rabeni: How much trust ... e.g. enough to do active dreaming, for example? That's a lot of trust
Zon Kwan: ask your stomach..it knows
Eliza Madrigal: I feel it is a trajectory, there is a time to learn and a time when knowledge springs forth...
arabella Ella: enough trust in my intuition to act on what it tells me often enough
Calvino Rabeni: @eliza, sometimes the metaphor that comes to mind is seeds growing in the earth, or soup simmering
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Eliza Madrigal: time
Eliza Madrigal: cultivation, bit of guardening occasionally... appreciation/watching...
Calvino Rabeni: To act on the subconscious information .. after thinking about it and rationalizing it is I think the most common thing to do
Zon Kwan: how do we make decisions
Calvino Rabeni: but what doing things that are more immediate than that
Zon Kwan: its always in the end the feeling
arabella Ella: no Cal
Zon Kwan: that decides
Eliza Madrigal: when one trusts their intuition a great deal, it can create panic when there seems a delay in clarity
arabella Ella: it is not acting after rationalisation or anything
arabella Ella: it is acting spontaneously following what intutiion says
Zon Kwan: yes
Eliza Madrigal nodding... seems to fit the 'springing forth' imagery as well....
arabella Ella: rationalisation is a different matter altogether
Calvino Rabeni: People depend on their feeling - felt sense to double-check their rational decisions. and maybe those rational decisions originate in knowledge that originates in felt subconscious knowing
Eliza Madrigal: "springing into action"
arabella Ella: disagree Cal, unless you remove 'rational' from your last remark
Zon Kwan: after all analyzing of information...there is not all info ever...one decides based on feeling
Eliza Madrigal: I often think we rationalize what we already decided...
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Calvino Rabeni: ok ara can you restate the remark to reflect your understanding?
Eliza Madrigal listens
Calvino Rabeni: what's more true-feeling?
arabella Ella: remove 'double check'
arabella Ella: and remove rational
arabella Ella: some people sometimes act very spontaneously without thinking rationally but rather taking huge uncalculated risk
arabella Ella: acting on intuition
arabella Ella: an inner voice
Zon Kwan: reaction is different than spontanious responding to a situation
arabella Ella: it is not reaction either
Zon Kwan: no..its responding
arabella Ella: yes responding without rationality
Zon Kwan: nods
arabella Ella: but following an inner subconscious voice
arabella Ella: even if it seems irrational
Zon Kwan: answering the now
arabella Ella: yes

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: Responding... love that word
Zon Kwan: ratioanlising comes afterwards
Calvino Rabeni: maybe not "rationality" ... but doesn't it get processed by an egoic mind and made useful and acceptable?
arabella Ella: no Cal
Zon Kwan: rationalising is making excuses, explaining, justifying....intelligence is responding
arabella Ella: it is spur of the moment
arabella Ella: you may rationalise after the event or action
Calvino Rabeni: something like that is shown by brain scanning technology also

Eliza Madrigal: Say more about how you see the connection to dreaming, Cal?
arabella Ella: yes Cal pls?
Calvino Rabeni: mindfulness practices can lead to aware observation of different levels of the mind at once
Calvino Rabeni: and that could be oversight or coordination
Calvino Rabeni: like linking memory with conscious attention
Calvino Rabeni: so e.g. the ability to remember better, what happened during the start of this session
Calvino Rabeni: dreaming is often disconnected, during the sleep process
Calvino Rabeni: if people can dream while awake, it means that more "mind" is present
Calvino Rabeni: and the dream could be more powerful, because both the dream mind and the day mind are having a conversation and working together
Calvino Rabeni: i was reflecting
Calvino Rabeni: do you remember what happened, in experience, back at the time
Calvino Rabeni: when it was asked
Calvino Rabeni: "Does anyone have a topic in mind"
Calvino Rabeni: ?
arabella Ella: to some extent yes
Calvino Rabeni: Then the out-of-conscious mind started talking to the conscious mind or something
Calvino Rabeni: and the conscious mind processed and reacted
Calvino Rabeni: and after some complex but shadowy negotiations, something "sprung into action"

Eliza Madrigal: Cal is making various layers of omelettes today
Calvino Rabeni: lol
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Calvino Rabeni: Spillled some tomato sauce
Eliza Madrigal: hehe
Eliza Madrigal: but yes I see this....
Eliza Madrigal: appreciate the analogies and the mixture of conversation between minds....
arabella Ella nods ... interesting
Zon Kwan: yes ..when we focus our attention to any topic...things start to emerge
Zon Kwan: by themselves
Eliza Madrigal: so a seepping of unconscious into conscious and visa versa fluidly seems part of the 'seeing through dualities' exploration
Eliza Madrigal: hmmm, nodding @ Zon... active allowing

Calvino Rabeni: I keep coming back to .. the issue of TRUST about what goes on within and between these various minds, the ones "inside" me and between us
Calvino Rabeni: Trust seems to come from more than one thing
Calvino Rabeni: relaxation
Calvino Rabeni: and also successful action in the past
Calvino Rabeni: skill in action
Eliza Madrigal: not sure about past.... as one can also remember past dillusions...
Calvino Rabeni: A tree cutter took care of some dangerous leaning tree in my yard... all the other tree cutters were scared to do it... but he simply trusted his ability,and it was easy and no big deal
Calvino Rabeni: he was one with the tree :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
arabella Ella: it is skill and experience
Calvino Rabeni: and if he'd had unsuccessful encounters in the past, he learned from them
arabella Ella: building up trust with time
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Zon Kwan: he was in peace with his stomach
Calvino Rabeni: but he couldn't have reached that trust by taking a calmness pill or just suggesting a mood to himself
Calvino Rabeni: because that wouldn't have been one with the tree
Eliza Madrigal: indeed
Zon Kwan: that wold have been forcing
Calvino Rabeni: There are always exceptions, but they don't disprove the trend
arabella Ella: this is really interesting but i gtg
Calvino Rabeni: like people who have unwarranted confidence and then get injured
arabella Ella: bye everyone and thanks Cal for this interesting topic and chat!
Zon Kwan: me 2, nite all
Eliza Madrigal: nice to see you Ara, thanks for the talk
Calvino Rabeni: :) Arabella
Mickorod Renard: bye ara
Calvino Rabeni: good to see you as always :)
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Zon
Eliza Madrigal: there is a 'moment' often in process between sub/conscious... or the planting and the springing forth...
Eliza Madrigal: a moment of panic or darkness
Mickorod Renard: there is nothing better than experience

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: well is there experience and then 'direct' experience I wonder
Mickorod Renard: i have to go,,feel horrible
Eliza Madrigal: (((Mick)))) Sleep well
Mickorod Renard: nite nite

Calvino Rabeni: I was in a circle with an indigenous wisdom teacher, and talking about different ancient methods of prayer ... one of them was to make a prayer and take a piece of a sacred plant, take a stick, and poke a hole in the ground, and put the prayer down into the earth

Eliza Madrigal tucks Mick in
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Mickorod Renard: :) ty
Calvino Rabeni: Good night :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: sleep well mick
Yakuzza Lethecus: night everyone

Eliza Madrigal: what a wonderful practice Cal
Calvino Rabeni: I used to think it superstitious, until I realized, its simply planting on one's own subconscious, and asking the earth to be part of it
Eliza Madrigal: yes :) in that case a prayer seems a question
Eliza Madrigal: my imagery for meditation used to be of dropping questions down a dark well
Calvino Rabeni: or a resolution, like being free from an addiction
Calvino Rabeni nods
Eliza Madrigal: then letting it go still and black... sea of forgetfulness
Calvino Rabeni: the fertile sea
Eliza Madrigal: then I'd literally walk away and forget :) later something would appear or clarify and I'd remember...
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, fertile sea. hmmm
Calvino Rabeni: in which like our ocean there are 10000 micro species per cubic centimeter
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Calvino Rabeni: all active
Calvino Rabeni: all evolving quickly
Calvino Rabeni: communicating
Calvino Rabeni: in simple ways of course :)
Eliza Madrigal: of course :)
Calvino Rabeni: dumber than us, sure :)
Eliza Madrigal: well perhaps no need to assign value judgements in that way.... more various contexts...
Calvino Rabeni: no just referring to the way we humans like to keep our imagined position at the top of the pyramid of evolution
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, yes :)
Calvino Rabeni: but in truth I'm all for a sense of wonder and humility at the complex intelligences all around
Eliza Madrigal: we think we're safe there
Eliza Madrigal: hehe
Eliza Madrigal: yes no need to conquer anything perhaps
Eliza Madrigal: Thank you for this talk and topic
Eliza Madrigal: much appreciated :)
Calvino Rabeni: YW :)
Eliza Madrigal: You also might be amused by the nov dream circle if you read it... ha... creatures and such
Calvino Rabeni: Oh, I'll check it out
Eliza Madrigal: ok

--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: Good afternoon .. on to wash my dishes :)
Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now Cal
Calvino Rabeni sneaks out during the pause