The Guardian for this meeting was Zen Arado. The comments are by Zen Arado. Present were Archmage Atlantis, Bertram Jacobus, Calvino Rabeni, Freud Jungsten and myself.

Ted video about Native Americans:

Zen Arado: Hi Arch :)
Archmage Atlantis: Hi Zen
Zen Arado: Hi Freud :)
Archmage Atlantis: Hello Freud
Freud Jungsten: Good morning.
Freud Jungsten: Was just about to try and get back to sleep.
Freud Jungsten: But thought I would stop by first.
Zen Arado: I watched a Ted talk yesterday about how the native Americans were treated
Zen Arado: did you see it?
Freud Jungsten: Get it from Wol?
Zen Arado: yes
Freud Jungsten: If it was that one yes.
Freud Jungsten: Fairly well done.
Freud Jungsten: But evaded some of the more important points.
Freud Jungsten: But good for awareness.
Zen Arado: I didn't realize there were so many native americans 8 million at one time
Archmage Atlantis: And those points were?
Archmage Atlantis: Yes, Zen, the continents were populated
Freud Jungsten: Failed to really mention some of the more important outright genocide actions on the part of the US.
Zen Arado: he mentioned the massacres though
Zen Arado: what they called battles
Zen Arado: and glorified soldiers who died
Freud Jungsten: A lot of them were not battles though.
Archmage Atlantis: I have not seen that video.......but I do know history
Zen Arado: exactly
Freud Jungsten: But italso did not cover how the modern social programs are stil destroying us.
Archmage Atlantis: The biggest destroyer was the diseases that were brought over
Freud Jungsten: As I said to Wol... socialism is what white people do to minorities to keep us servile.
Freud Jungsten: And it works very very well.
Zen Arado: yes - it happens all over the world
Zen Arado: happened in Australia too
Zen Arado: alcohol is a great killer of indigenous peoples
Freud Jungsten: But nothing can change the fact that we lost the war...... and trying to put today's morality on past actions is futile.
Zen Arado: true - but what can be done today do you think?
Archmage Atlantis: Yet you do seem to do so to me, Freud
Freud Jungsten: More self determination, slowy reducing the handouts.
Zen Arado: yes - but that is a problem for everyone too
Freud Jungsten: If I knew... lol. give me a few years.
Freud Jungsten: Maybe when I am 25 I will be able to sort it out.
Freud Jungsten grins
Archmage Atlantis: My ancestors owned slaves, did things that we would consider awful now
Archmage Atlantis: And yet they were small potatoes
Bertram Jacobus: good morning from germany ! :-)
Zen Arado: Hi Bert :)
Archmage Atlantis: Sieg hile......welcome to the battlefield
Freud Jungsten: Gutten morgan.
Zen Arado: social security is not just a problem for indigenous people
Bertram Jacobus: oops - sry for disturbing the silence !
Bertram Jacobus: having disturbed ...
Zen Arado: np Bert
Freud Jungsten: And also, keep i mind that Nativie American tribes were rather violent betwen theselves before the Eruopeans showed up.
Archmage Atlantis: This may not be a morning for silence
Zen Arado: were they - didn't know that
Freud Jungsten: lol
Freud Jungsten: Look at the practices of human sacrifices that were done particulaly in central America.
Zen Arado: I often think that it's the indigenous people's low resistance to alcohol that causes a lot of problems?
Freud Jungsten: And I don't think people understand that saying Native AMerican is about as usefull as saying Eurasian.
Freud Jungsten: A very broad term.
Zen Arado: that Ted prog looked at the Lakota and Sioux specifically
Freud Jungsten: If we had a low resistance to alcohol, those folks must have been completely rmoved from the genepool by now.... lol
Zen Arado: and the Pine Ridge reservation
Archmage Atlantis: Alcohol has been with humanity many eons
Zen Arado: yes but Europeans seem to have a higher tolerance to it
Zen Arado: not so many become alcoholics
Freud Jungsten: I am not sure I agree with that, but then again my exposure is limited.
Zen Arado: because it has been around with us longer probably
Zen Arado: Hi Cal :)
Freud Jungsten: I thin iit just a matter of the volume consumed.
Calvino Rabeni: Hello everyone
Freud Jungsten: A lot of my extended familly drinks to get drunk.
Bertram Jacobus: hello cal ... :-)
Freud Jungsten: most the people I met in Germany and the UK drink becuase they like it.
Freud Jungsten: Probably when our drug issues are so bad as well.
Freud Jungsten: And on that note I am going to try and get back to sleep.
Freud Jungsten: Take care all.
Calvino Rabeni: Bye
Zen Arado: bye Freud :)
Freud Jungsten: do na da go vh i
Archmage Atlantis: That is one of the missing things in google, a cherokee to english translator
Zen Arado: we were talking about a Ted video on native Americans and how badly they have been treated Cal
Zen Arado: I can't seem to find the link :(
Calvino Rabeni: what was the message of it?
Bertram Jacobus: what is a "Ted video" , plz ?
Archmage Atlantis: Actually, I do not know the term either
Zen Arado: http://www.ted.com/talks/aaron_huey....ect-on.ted.com
Zen Arado: It's a site that shows interesting talks
Calvino Rabeni: Anything on that site is a "ted video"
Zen Arado: the speakers are only allowed 20 mins
Bertram Jacobus: ah okay. ty !
Zen Arado: some of them are very interesting I find
Calvino Rabeni: Its an elite lecture venue
Archmage Atlantis: It is a gathering of the perspectives of existing humans
Archmage Atlantis: elite, .......hmmmmmmm
Calvino Rabeni: I think by invitation only, so you're cool to be invited and have to make it seem entertaining as well as informative
Archmage Atlantis: why elite, Cal?
Calvino Rabeni: because its intellectual and exclusive
Calvino Rabeni: trendy
Zen Arado: it was just about how badly the American Indians have been treated by the whites
Zen Arado: nothing new really I suppose
Archmage Atlantis: Hey, Zen is trendy, and here I just thought he was a nice guy *g*
Zen Arado: not sure 'trendy' is what I want to be :)
Archmage Atlantis: ding
Zen Arado: these social issues never seem to have any solutions
Archmage Atlantis: Yes they do, there is one solution
Zen Arado: it's the same problem here in the UK - they are trying to get people off dependence on Welfare benefits and back to work
Archmage Atlantis: We remember the few who saw it as great religious and philosophical leaders
Zen Arado: you want to help people who are poor and struggling but they then become dependent
Archmage Atlantis: Give a man a fish, he eats that day, teach a man to fish, ....
Archmage Atlantis: That is an ancient thought
Zen Arado: a good principle Arch
Zen Arado: not so easy to implement though...
Archmage Atlantis: No, and going the easy way is why we may never achieve our potential as thinking beings
Zen Arado: what would you do about the problems of Native Americans?
Zen Arado: they lost their way of life when the white man came
Bertram Jacobus: take them as all others, as members of the modern american society
Zen Arado: they couldn't return to those ancient ways I don't think
Archmage Atlantis: There is no problem......we have a half and half president......most tribes have casino income
Zen Arado: we destroyed their herds of buffalo
Archmage Atlantis: The world changes
Zen Arado: so they have to change to 'our' ways or else?
Archmage Atlantis: To destroy is easier than to build
Archmage Atlantis: Or ppl build something nes
Archmage Atlantis: *new
Zen Arado: I wonder how they would have evolved without white men's intervention?
Archmage Atlantis: I forget which Indian (India) goddess is in charge of destruction
Archmage Atlantis: But she is revered

How do you help people basically?

Bertram Jacobus: the buddha recommended the path of the middle - that may be the solution here too : members of the modern society AND living their heritage and own culture , perhaps ...
Archmage Atlantis: This is my own thought.......there is no middle......there is only a middle place one passes through many times in life, seeing it is to be blessed.
Zen Arado: think Bert has a good point
Zen Arado: but I don't know really
Zen Arado: there is no clear solution to these problems so politicians steer clear of them
Zen Arado: whatever you do will be wrong
Bertram Jacobus: you know, arch, where that buddha idea came from ? that was, because he didn´t rech enlightenment in his fathers hughe and wealthy home and not as an asket too - only in the middle : giving the body what he needs, that best condition was it, then ...
Zen Arado: people stubbornlt won't fit into schemes designed for them :)
Zen Arado: stubbornly*
Archmage Atlantis: Agree with both, Bert and Zen
Zen Arado: how to give people the drive to help themsleves
Zen Arado: ?
Zen Arado: you can't really
Archmage Atlantis: The flaw I see in that statement is "give"
Zen Arado: yes
Bertram Jacobus: we only can do the things with a good motivation i think. that´s all
Zen Arado: so you leave them and do nothing ?
Archmage Atlantis: Sometimes, yes Zen
Zen Arado: or even reduce their welfare handouts - as Freud said ?
Archmage Atlantis: Yes....but that is not going to produce the society we have here in the US
Zen Arado: but it an unequal society
Archmage Atlantis: Yes, I agree
Zen Arado: why should some be so rich and others so poor?
Archmage Atlantis: I dislike it much
Zen Arado: or is that just the way things will always be?
Archmage Atlantis: Because being poor is at times the only way to make ppl angry enuf to change,to envision a new future
Zen Arado: works for some but others just become discouraged and feel worthless
Zen Arado: conditioned to fail
Archmage Atlantis: fancy that]
Zen Arado: and poor people have less educational opportunitie so the cycle continues through the generations
Archmage Atlantis: There is an old chinese tale
Archmage Atlantis: If i save a man, he is my responsibility for life.....Dude, when I was a child, President Obama could not use the same rest room
Zen Arado: so things have certainly improved in some ways
Archmage Atlantis: Yes
Archmage Atlantis: The hippies made a difference *g*
Zen Arado: and things have improved where I live
Zen Arado: you think?
Archmage Atlantis: Yes, I do
Calvino Rabeni: the civil rights movement made a difference too
Calvino Rabeni: and that was not hippies
Calvino Rabeni: but christians
Zen Arado: maybe the hippie movement raised awareness a bit
Zen Arado: yes - Matin Luther KIng ?
Archmage Atlantis: The way forward is to follow the path
Archmage Atlantis: some are very brave
Zen Arado: or to give up following paths
Zen Arado: :)
Archmage Atlantis: To me Zen,those are the same
Zen Arado: follow our own path
Archmage Atlantis: I do not choose the path

Theory of the overrated influence of new social networking media:

Calvino Rabeni: This article was interesting on the civil rights movement and how much courage and discipline it took, along with using existing social structures (the churches)
Calvino Rabeni: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2..._fact_gladwell
Archmage Atlantis: I only follow it
Calvino Rabeni: This was not a movement of individuals
Zen Arado: interesting Cal
Archmage Atlantis: Nor of the time.....it was a movement that reached it's goals after many decades
Zen Arado: ther is a kind of grounswell of opinion
Zen Arado: groundswell*
Zen Arado: and then a leader often emerges
Zen Arado: the article seems to downplay the role of social networking media - from skimming it?
Calvino Rabeni: the groups do the work .... then certain individuals get the glory
Archmage Atlantis: Is that what you really think, Ca?
Zen Arado: yes - they kinda ride the wave of public opinion don't they?
Zen Arado: but we as humans seem to like to give so much credit to leaders
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, we give too much credit / blame to the leaders
Zen Arado: and they can only do what people allow them to do
Archmage Atlantis: agree Cal
Calvino Rabeni: not seeing the soil that they and everyone else grow from
Calvino Rabeni: another similar view on that issues is
Calvino Rabeni: http://socialcapital.wordpress.com/2...nt-be-tweeted/
Bertram Jacobus: what does the "tweeted" here mean, plz ?
Calvino Rabeni: And yes it is skeptical of the current social media with respect to their ability to support difficult social changes
Calvino Rabeni: tweeted means, a message sent on Twitter.com
Archmage Atlantis: omg. tweeting is everywhere .......
Bertram Jacobus: ah ty cal ...
Zen Arado: Facebook and Twitter are only a means of communication at base
Zen Arado: like newspapers and TV
Calvino Rabeni: There's a fascination with the ability to send messages, the so-called "connection", but not much awareness of where the messages "come from" and mean.
Archmage Atlantis: Have to go.....wonderful morning....alll my favorite peeps. :)
Calvino Rabeni: so they create what's called "weak links" between people
Bertram Jacobus: bye arch ty and same plz for you
Zen Arado: bye Arch
Calvino Rabeni: Bye Archmage
Zen Arado: you don't agree with 'collective intelligence' ?
Calvino Rabeni: A group that was built using weak links can exhibit weak collective intelligence
Bertram Jacobus: but for example - the twitter messages about the iranian protests - would you call them really "weak" , too ? (me not i guess) ... hm -
Zen Arado: only thing I notice is that nasty things are becoming harder to hide in the information era
Calvino Rabeni: Yes according to that article, they were weak ... hardly any twitter messages were used within iran itself
Zen Arado: governments can't manipulate information so easily
Calvino Rabeni: and it was mostly non-iranian chatter about iran
Zen Arado: but governments can manipulate Twitter too
Zen Arado: didn't Obama use it to help his election campaign?
Calvino Rabeni: I think so
Zen Arado: I'm not that keen on Twitter
Calvino Rabeni: I think it's "information" that is being overrated
Calvino Rabeni: New info media give a temporary tactical advantage perhaps
Calvino Rabeni: but when everyone can send information to everyone
Zen Arado: ok but media coverage of a big protest can sway people
Calvino Rabeni: there's still no change happening in the hearts and minds of the people
Calvino Rabeni: and in their groups and relationships
Calvino Rabeni: and in their moral conscience
Zen Arado: media coverage of MLK speeches for instance
Zen Arado: maybe we are influenced more than we think
Zen Arado: and emotional speeches by powerful orators can stir the masses
Calvino Rabeni: If social media for example, had replaced church attendance with Facebook in the sixties, the civil rights movement very likely wouldn't have happened
Zen Arado: but again, the mood for change has to be there as well
Calvino Rabeni: the mood, the courage, the vision
Calvino Rabeni: all more important than the "messaging"
Zen Arado: I guess I better go
Zen Arado: thanks for intersting discussion
Calvino Rabeni: :) I think I must / ought also Zen :)
Bertram Jacobus: [by folks] ...
Calvino Rabeni: Thanks zen, Bert
Zen Arado: bye :)
Bertram Jacobus: tY ! :-)
Calvino Rabeni: Be well, Bert
Bertram Jacobus: ty cal same plz :-9