2010.11.28 19:00 - Weather Report

The Guardian for this meeting was Calvino Rabeni. The comments are by Calvino Rabeni.

Geo Solari: hello, may i sit here?
Calvino Rabeni: Good evening Geo, Rhi
Calvino Rabeni: Sure please have a seat
Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Cal,
Rhiannon Dragoone: please give me sometime to rez
Rhiannon Dragoone: i'll sit as soon as things rez
Rhiannon Dragoone: I don't even see Geo
Rhiannon Dragoone: he's not even on my radar
Calvino Rabeni: He is opposite my position across the water
Rhiannon Dragoone: ok, i tried sitting and i am blued out
Calvino Rabeni: the sitting worked, but with a nonstandard animation
Geo Solari: What is the technical problem with Rhia? Maybe it is a naive question. Iam new to SL and I see everybody...
Rhiannon Dragoone: it might be bandwidth, Geo
Rhiannon Dragoone: or my wireless
Geo Solari: Oh
Rhiannon Dragoone: ur not supposed to make a connection even on wireless, although everyone does
Rhiannon Dragoone: i can see you now, though ur greay
Rhiannon Dragoone: And now i can't see Cal
Rhiannon Dragoone: i'm beginning to think the Goddess doesn't want me here
Calvino Rabeni: Is that the internet goddess?
Geo Solari: Nice metaphor Internet goddess
Rhiannon Dragoone: ok, i can't sit; i tried clicking on a cushion
Calvino Rabeni: I wonder what percent of talk in second life is of the "can you see me now" variety
Calvino Rabeni: You look fine, Rhi
Geo Solari: I miss Albert
Calvino Rabeni: Never know who will show up
Calvino Rabeni: I think you mean Boxy?
Rhiannon Dragoone: that's true
Rhiannon Dragoone: i find it an adventure coming here
Geo Solari: Yes boxy. I like his remarks. He makes me feel calm
Calvino Rabeni: He's fun
--BELL--

Rhiannon Dragoone: is there any convo going on?
Calvino Rabeni: It might be more relaxing in a way if there were an agenda :)
Calvino Rabeni: Or if there were a way to say - "what's on the list of common things I'm thinking about and you are"
Rhiannon Dragoone: oh, one common thing would be computer connection
Rhiannon Dragoone: Soup
Geo Solari: Cal you are creating an agenda now, I think
Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, that's what a good facilitator does
Calvino Rabeni: Yeah,... it would be nice to have a subset of the common things that seems sort of interesting or unusual or something
Calvino Rabeni: I just have to confess, my mind gets rather numb these days with the talk about technology
Calvino Rabeni: that is, how it doesn't quite work right
Geo Solari: Technology, but it governs our life actually
Calvino Rabeni: Governs is a somewhat kind sounding word
Calvino Rabeni: Almost benign sounding
Geo Solari: I mean technology has a momentum that it is difficult for anyone to avoid it
Calvino Rabeni: Like a fish in water
Calvino Rabeni: There are so many uses and effects of technology - all different varieties
Geo Solari: but water is good for fish, technology for humans?
Calvino Rabeni: Some things creative, some confusing, some fun, some boring and benumbing
Calvino Rabeni: I can barely conceive of a generality about it that makes sense
Geo Solari: I am intersted in discussion about climate change lately
Geo Solari: interested
Calvino Rabeni: I'm interested in that too
Calvino Rabeni: Which angles do you think about?
Geo Solari: First I am confused about the facts. Second i am confused about the solutions that are proposed
Calvino Rabeni: There's hardly anything people do that doesn't have some effect on climate, and the overall effect is the aggregate of everything people do and all their reasons for doing it
--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: Because its an aggregate effect, there aren't narrow causes, and therefore not simple solutions
Rhiannon Dragoone: hi!
Rhiannon Dragoone: what are we talking about?
Rhiannon Dragoone: And sorry i can't sit now; i'm on my text client (again)
Calvino Rabeni: WB Rhi !Just started .. .climate change
Geo Solari: I would like to know the degree of predictability of the climate models. Second what is the net energy of the soluttions that are offerd. Are they real solutions?
Rhiannon Dragoone: Does it bother you, Geo, that i'm standing? If it does, i'll leave
Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, most climate models are GIGO; they only work with the right data
Geo Solari: I do not mind at all Rhia. I told you i find you very interesting
Rhiannon Dragoone: ty Geo
Rhiannon Dragoone: After last night though, i want to make sure i'm not disturbing the group
Calvino Rabeni: hmmm
Calvino Rabeni: hardly any group to be disturbed, at the moment
Calvino Rabeni: what's your feeling, Rhi, do you think whatever happened last night, is a pattern likely to repeat itself?
Calvino Rabeni: Or has some learning and adaptation occured?
Geo Solari: But I am a recent visitor here...
Rhiannon Dragoone: I find it ironic that when ppl are most concerned with climate, it is alwasy a sign it's going to snow
Calvino Rabeni: How did you find this activity in Second Life, Geo?
Rhiannon Dragoone: Cal, well, this morning, i borrowed a computer to position myself behind the pole, knowing i'd be on a text client, and it was fine; although after the meeting, one woman was curious as to why I was hiding
Rhiannon Dragoone: But even Maxine was good with it
Rhiannon Dragoone: And it's happened twice, so yeah, i feel it could happen again; that's why i tried to use a full viewer, so i could sit
Rhiannon Dragoone: And now i feel exposed, standing here without a pole to hide behind
Calvino Rabeni: People read a lot into appearances
Calvino Rabeni: DO you want a pole?
Rhiannon Dragoone: well, if more ppl come, then yes
Rhiannon Dragoone: but if ur and Geo aren't uncomfortable with me, then i'm fine
Geo Solari: I heard about SL in a univesity lecture about a month ago. I decided to explore it. I searched places with discussion . I like this place
Calvino Rabeni: What was the lecture about?
Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, this place has its moments; i keep coming back even when ppl tell me to leave
Calvino Rabeni: There was an article on NPR day before yesterday
Geo Solari: About education, technology and education
Calvino Rabeni nods
Calvino Rabeni: I wonder what the current buzz is about second life in the are a of education
Rhiannon Dragoone: well, universities are upset that the lindens are pulling their special rates
Geo Solari: I usually search the peer review literature about the subjects that i am interested
Rhiannon Dragoone: But there are profesors who come her
Rhiannon Dragoone: *here
Rhiannon Dragoone: I'm~slowly~writing a non fiction novel about my experiences here
Calvino Rabeni: Can you give me an example of that Geo?
Geo Solari: You mean example of the way I search?
Calvino Rabeni: I meant an interesting subject search you did
Calvino Rabeni: who are the peers and reviewers
Calvino Rabeni: There are so many online journals in academic areas
Calvino Rabeni: is that what you mean?
--BELL--

Geo Solari: Recently i made a search about kinds of knowledge Tacit, explicit, codification of knowledge, knowledge managemente
Geo Solari: management. Also the nature of probabilities
Rhiannon Dragoone: that would be interesting, Geo
Calvino Rabeni: that's quite interesting
Geo Solari: Would you like yo discuss anything about these subjects?
Geo Solari: to
Rhiannon Dragoone: Go ahead and talk to us about them, Geo
Calvino Rabeni: Yes please
Geo Solari: About knowledge there several viewe depending on the context. But a dominant view is that of Polanyi that knowledge is like an iceberg. The upper part we can verbally analyze is called expicit knowledge or codified knowledge. But the invisible part tacit knowlede is the greatest part. And the most difficult to manage
Geo Solari: views
Rhiannon Dragoone: The knowledge of the heart that only the heart knows
Geo Solari: This is the sentimental part of the knowledge. But there are issues abut how knowledge is diffused
Geo Solari: about
Rhiannon Dragoone: Diffused?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, actually the idea of "knowledge management" implies a whole paradigm about what knowledge might be
Geo Solari: Tacit knowledge is sticky.
Geo Solari: But all these views count only in specific contexts
Rhiannon Dragoone: So what is tacit knowledge?
Calvino Rabeni: Sticky means, its relevant to specific contexts
Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Hokon!
Rhiannon Dragoone: And Hokon is a friend of mine, Cal; so i won't have to hide behind a pole
Calvino Rabeni: You could say, the notion of "information" is a way to abstract knowledge from as much context as possible. If that is true, than any methodology that is dependent on information, would therefore be more inapplicable to tacit knowledge
--BELL--

Geo Solari: Tacit knowledge is when we know something but we cannot explain it to others explicitly. You listen to note, for example A, and you say it is A. How do you do it? How do you explain it to others?
Geo Solari: music note
Rhiannon Dragoone: Geo, but wouldn't that be covered by the 5 levels of competency?
Calvino Rabeni: Hi Hokon :) Good to see you again :)
Geo Solari: Hi Hokon
Hokon Cazalet: hellos
Calvino Rabeni: Quite the philosophy club that has coalesced here today
Hokon Cazalet: lol
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Rhiannon Dragoone: Cal, yes it has, but that reminds me; i was told that i didn't belong her cuz i was too philosophical; even though i had only texts two lines
Rhiannon Dragoone: So pardon me if i get nervous about that description
Geo Solari: Yes Rhia , my example is about a skill, but if you examine the skill about its dynamic for diffusion it is different
Rhiannon Dragoone: But is Polanyi a philosopher? He strikes me more as a psychologist
Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, i'm not sure what the 'dynamic for diffusion' is
Calvino Rabeni: Well as I see it Rhi, what "belongs" is defined by WHO's here
Rhiannon Dragoone nods at Cal
Hokon Cazalet: yeah ive been here many times, and said philosophical stuff and been ok, my guess is its some rouge moderator
Rhiannon Dragoone: I have to adjust my paradigm; when i come to a discussion, i expect to stay for it, but i guess here, there will be times where i will have to leave in the middle of it; depending on who's here
Calvino Rabeni: however it's true, though, I have some knowledge of philosophy, I don't prefer the intellectual debate pardigm
Rhiannon Dragoone: hokon, wasn't even a moderator, as far as i can tell
Hokon Cazalet: oh
Hokon Cazalet: well youll always get goofballs
Geo Solari: To be honest i dont know too much about Polanyi's life. But i know there are two Polanyis. I do not care so much about him. I just caught some ideas for education
Geo Solari: Cal, is this dicussion boring to you?
Rhiannon Dragoone: Cal, yeah, i think she was making assumptions about me--i was narcissistic, would make everything into a phil debate to attract attention to me
Rhiannon Dragoone: All because i couldn't sit
Rhiannon Dragoone: Geo, i'm just asking about his specialty
Rhiannon Dragoone: Learning theory? Neuropsychology? What?
Calvino Rabeni: Geo, no not boring at all
Alfred Kelberry: hello :)
Hokon Cazalet: hi =)
Rhiannon Dragoone: So what is Polanyi's specialty? Or the Polanyis
Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Afred
Calvino Rabeni: I confessed my main boredom already - technology that doesn't work quite right :)
Calvino Rabeni: Hey Boxy :))
Rhiannon Dragoone: Forvive my standing; i'm on my text chat client again
Hokon Cazalet: hi boxy
Rhiannon Dragoone: Who's boxy?
Hokon Cazalet: oh thats al
Hokon Cazalet: lol
Geo Solari: Polanyi, a polymath
Hokon Cazalet: i checked my radar, no bosy, and realized, alf is a box . . .
Calvino Rabeni: This is Boxy
Rhiannon Dragoone: But what has he published?
Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, ur one up on me, hokon; i'm the little blind girl again
Geo Solari: Cal, i stop this discussion, sorry
Calvino Rabeni: There's a tiny av seat over here Alfred
Hokon Cazalet: why stop . . .
Alfred Kelberry: hokon, yes, it's a new feature of 2.3.0 client. you can change a name tag.
Hokon Cazalet: o
Rhiannon Dragoone: I'll be back in a minute
Hokon Cazalet: i still use 1.23 lol
Calvino Rabeni: OK here's one for you, Hokon
Calvino Rabeni: http://www.integral-review.org/documents/Kupers,%20Phenomenology%20Vol.%205%20No.%201.pdf
Rhiannon Dragoone: Wish i could use 1.23; they no longer let you down load it
Calvino Rabeni: And this one for Geo
Calvino Rabeni: http://triple-c.at/index.php/tripleC
Rhiannon Dragoone: anyway, i'll be back in a coiuple of minutes
Alfred Kelberry: ah, poor aph... is still trapped
Alfred Kelberry: stev! :)
Hokon Cazalet: gimme a mintue to load, my pc is slow
Calvino Rabeni: Might have to do a sit in down in san francisco
Calvino Rabeni: picket signs
stevenaia Michinaga: Hello
Geo Solari: Thanks Cal, looks interesting
Calvino Rabeni: A little knowledge about knowledge is a dangerous thing
Rhiannon Dragoone: i'm back!
Rhiannon Dragoone: hi steve
stevenaia Michinaga: helo Rhi
Calvino Rabeni: WB Rhi
stevenaia Michinaga: wb
Geo Solari: destructive analysis
stevenaia Michinaga: hi Geo
Rhiannon Dragoone: Knowledge aboiut knowledge is the only way you can truly know. It's the 5th level of competency
Geo Solari: Hello Stev
Calvino Rabeni: I was handing out "interesting links" like a pusher of addictive substances
Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, but Geo, there is such a thing as constructive analysis
Calvino Rabeni: Here's one for Rhia http://integral-review.org/documents/Gunnlaugson,%20Intersubjectivity%20Vol.%205,%20No.%201.pdf
Hokon Cazalet: seems interesting calvino, though im personally, not a big fan of ken wilber or his ideas
Rhiannon Dragoone: oh, Cal, could you put it on a notecard?
Rhiannon Dragoone: There's no way for me to copy and paste it or click on it atm
Rhiannon Dragoone: Intersubjectivity *is* an interest of mine; that was a very thoughtful gift
Calvino Rabeni: Sure but Ken has lost control of his ideas, now the cat is out of the bag and an independent community has takien it up
Rhiannon Dragoone: Cal, what???
Geo Solari: Of course Rhia, but if you start thinking about how yoy play a piece on the piano you may destroy it
Rhiannon Dragoone: Barbie's Ken?
Rhiannon Dragoone: Geo, that's contextual
Rhiannon Dragoone: Ur at the 4th level when you play a piece
Rhiannon Dragoone: Then when you teach it to others, you are at the 5th level
--BELL--

Rhiannon Dragoone: ty Steve, Cal
Calvino Rabeni: Hokon doesn't care for the integral frameworks of Ken Wilber, I was saying, but there's starting to be more of a movement of independent work
Hokon Cazalet: well maybe ill look it up again, when i researched ken wilber a year ago . . . well, im not big into new age stuff
Hokon Cazalet: thats good
Hokon Cazalet: ill check it out again then
Rhiannon Dragoone: oh, i'm not familiar with Ken Wilber
Rhiannon Dragoone: Integral frameworks?
Calvino Rabeni: Yeah, frankly I'm not a fan of the perennial philosophy approaches either
Calvino Rabeni: Yes Rhi
Rhiannon Dragoone: yeah, i tend to put my index fingers together in a sign of the cross when i get to New Age stuff
Hokon Cazalet: well the only perennial philosophy i can imagine being legit is ancient greek thought . . . since that was the original philosophy
Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, it takes all kinds, right, Cal?
Calvino Rabeni: http://integral-review.org/abstracts/index.asp
Hokon Cazalet: so yeah, im not inot it much either, since it seems confused, in its use of the word philosophy
Rhiannon Dragoone: Hokon, oh, there's a *lot* more to the history of philosophy than the Greeks
Geo Solari: Rhia, the moment you play the piece, if you think how you do it, you destroy it. Regardless of the fact that you know how to teach it
Hokon Cazalet: the ancient greeks made philosophy a science independent of religion, there are a few spots in the world that did it also; but nothing like what perennial thinkers espouse
Rhiannon Dragoone: It's good for attracting noobs, and prof philosophers alike to have a perrenial philosophy approach
Calvino Rabeni: There's a related question, what constitutes a religion . for example Taoism ... whether it is valid to look at it outside its historical and cultural context as a set of independent ideas
Hokon Cazalet: perennialists typically cite hinduism (thats a religion, sorry), or shamanism (again, religious)
Rhiannon Dragoone: ok, maybe i'm using the term diffferently than you and Cal, hokon. What do you mean by perrenial philosophy?
Hokon Cazalet: shamans def dont use logic rigorously, so its not philosophy, hindus, well they did begin to use logic so . . .
Calvino Rabeni: On the other hand, the academics try to define their fields much more narrowly
Rhiannon Dragoone: Cal, well, i think i know what you mean. Like Salinger's "little tearer downers."
Calvino Rabeni: If that's your definition of the word Logic, then sure
Rhiannon Dragoone: but there is still a play for analysis; to see how the music works; but its neither playing the music or experiencing it
Hokon Cazalet: logic - the rules of proper inference, advanced by aristotle in the west, and no shamans dont use logical thinking often, they appeal more to magic, supersititioon etc
Calvino Rabeni: Thats classical logic
Hokon Cazalet: logic is very clearly defined
Hokon Cazalet: yes, and symbolic logic didnt change what logic was, just made it work better
Calvino Rabeni: Well that's one paradigm defining itself
Rhiannon Dragoone: hokon, 'superstition' is a loaded word; as a logician, you know that
Rhiannon Dragoone: It's the difference between an analytical-mathematical approach and an intuitive approach
Hokon Cazalet: im not a logician :??
Rhiannon Dragoone: both have their paradigms, and are valid within them
Hokon Cazalet: but no, shamans dont use logic as a rigorous method
Rhiannon Dragoone: But i see what you are saying, you shouldn't confuse 'philosophy' with shamanism, or other mystical practices
Calvino Rabeni: I'm usually not impressed by the effort to say - when people use a word, THIS (my meaning) is the only valid one
Hokon Cazalet: yeah thats my irritation, it helps to perpetuate the myth that philosophy is some loose set of ideas about life; it isn't at all
Rhiannon Dragoone: No, they don't use logic as a rigorous method, but they do have their own rigorous methodologies, based in their experiences and tradition
Hokon Cazalet: calvino, check the history of philosophy for 2.5k yrs
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, that is an informal use of the word Logic
Hokon Cazalet: its really only a few on the fringe or postmoderns who are doing weird stuff with logic
Calvino Rabeni: to refer to a systematic conceptual methodology of some kind
Rhiannon Dragoone: well, Cal, Hokon, there are different methodologies, diffferent paradigms, and we shouldn't jude one by the other
Calvino Rabeni: That would be, Hokin, the orthodox view of the history of western philosophy
Hokon Cazalet: yes and it has alot of valdiity to it
Calvino Rabeni: No argument there
Hokon Cazalet: sorry, orthodox doesnt mean bad inherently
Rhiannon Dragoone: hokon, no it doesn't
Hokon Cazalet: i think we can rhia, by their results and methods
Geo Solari: I must leave. Bye everybody!
Hokon Cazalet: bye =)
stevenaia Michinaga: BYE Geo
Calvino Rabeni: Take care, see you later Geo !
Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, hokon, logic is only a syntactic connection, argument always proceeds from a backgroiund of tradition; even the empiritcal sciences build on traditon and paradigms; and 'shamanistic' practices can heal when allopathic medicine can't, can help you remote view, influence at a distance, and get your own subconscious to open up
Geo Solari: thank you all!
Rhiannon Dragoone: Different validities
Rhiannon Dragoone: ur welcome, Geo!
Rhiannon Dragoone: And thank you,Geo
Hokon Cazalet: logic is the canon of proper thinking, it is a apriori and universal, you can do the truth tables to see for yourself
Rhiannon Dragoone: I'm going to look up Polanyi and knowledge management
Calvino Rabeni: Thats well stated Rhia
Rhiannon Dragoone: A fresh approach is always stimulating; i could even get a paper out of it
Rhiannon Dragoone: ty Cal
Calvino Rabeni: Knowledge management is a chimaera
Rhiannon Dragoone: logic is an organizational framework for our sentences, hokon
Calvino Rabeni: You might check out that set of stuff at Triple-C to deconstruct "information" a bit
Rhiannon Dragoone: it is not the canon of proper thinking
Hokon Cazalet: id disagree rhia, thats a new definition by analytic thinkers
Calvino Rabeni: because knowledge management is really an informatics paradigm
Hokon Cazalet: im using the definition since aristotle, which i have found little reason to reject
Rhiannon Dragoone: New? Perhaps. But it goes from Aristotle to Quine
Hokon Cazalet: analytic philosophy adheres to the linguistic turn, which imo was a huge mistake
Hokon Cazalet: logic is not just about language
Calvino Rabeni: an organizational framework for inference
Calvino Rabeni: You might also look up "informal logic"
Hokon Cazalet: ok
Calvino Rabeni: say, in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy
Rhiannon Dragoone: well, if you want to expand he notion of logic, cool, but then what "canons of proper thinking" allow us to reject alpha brain wave training, energy psychology, Chinese medicine, to name just a few things outside of the Western paradigm?
Calvino Rabeni: Logic is a convention for doing inference on formally defined conceptual structures
Hokon Cazalet: um alot should be rejected, that stuff is in a pre-scientific state, and without empirical evidence
Rhiannon Dragoone: Or dismiss millenia of intuitive experience
Hokon Cazalet: logic is not mere convention, show me how the law of nonc-contradiction is just a convention
--BELL--

Hokon Cazalet: alot of inuitive experience led to crazy stuff
Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, hokon, first i've studied it and have confirming evidence, but secondly, if we subject it to empirical science, we are no longer scrutinizing it from apriori and universal principles
Hokon Cazalet: should we reject the christian paradigm of creationism? yes of course!
Rhiannon Dragoone: Once again, it stands outside of logic
Rhiannon Dragoone: Not outside of reason, but logic, as the canons of proper thinking
Hokon Cazalet: yet your making an argument for it, thus contradicting yourself
Hokon Cazalet: you cannot be beyond logic and still use it
Rhiannon Dragoone: hokon, you mean reject the idea that the universe originated in an extra-cosmic being? Why is tht 'of course?'
Hokon Cazalet: no
Calvino Rabeni: Hmmm, isnt that what everyone does most of the time Hokin?
Rhiannon Dragoone laughs
Hokon Cazalet: i refer to their inane theory of creationism, their rejection of evolution
Hokon Cazalet: im not talking theism
Hokon Cazalet: rejecting evolution is absurd
Rhiannon Dragoone: If by logic you mean 'argument,' then sure, nothing is outside of logic, but that broadens the concept to the point where it is synonymous with 'reason.'
Hokon Cazalet: logic deals with the rules of proper argument and reasoning . . .
Hokon Cazalet: i guess we have to agree to disagree, im not a fan of postmodern arguments
Hokon Cazalet: i believe in the authority of the sciences and logic
Rhiannon Dragoone: yeah, this is what lila was worried about; that we'd in up in a debate
Calvino Rabeni: The greater the rogour and power, the more narrow and brittle the domain of application
Rhiannon Dragoone: Let the chat log show--hoken started it!
Hokon Cazalet: lol thts fine
Rhiannon Dragoone: hi friday!
Rhiannon Dragoone: lol
Hokon Cazalet: ill probably for banned anyways, i just critiqued a sacred cow, new age stuff
Hokon Cazalet: well not critiqued, critizied
Rhiannon Dragoone: i'm still a little touchy, being booted from one philosophy sim to risk being booted from another
stevenaia Michinaga: Night all
Rhiannon Dragoone: nite, steve
stevenaia Michinaga: quite the discussion
Rhiannon Dragoone: hokon, they won't ban you here for that; where do you think you are, Philosophy Island?
Calvino Rabeni: We have, ln the Red corner, Hokon ... the Champion of Methods of Proper Thinking
Hokon Cazalet: lol
Hokon Cazalet: Yaaaaayyyyyyyy!
Calvino Rabeni: No actually I agree with something Rhia said earlier - it takes all types - or something like that
Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Tewair!
Calvino Rabeni: We have billions of people, willing to take up and champion all kinds of disciplines and ways of living and thinking
Calvino Rabeni: resulting in a massive, parallel exploration
Calvino Rabeni: and if you don't mind me saying, a dialectic
Calvino Rabeni: I'm grateful I don't have to sign up for the side of logical rigour and anti-subjectivity
Calvino Rabeni: because other people have that well-covered
Hokon Cazalet: im not for anti-subjectivity . . .
Hokon Cazalet: im not even a positivist, empiricist
Rhiannon Dragoone: A dialectic is the essence of philosophy
Hokon Cazalet: empiricism imo is a anachronistic philosophy
Rhiannon Dragoone: There is always a synthesis of opposing viewpoints
Hokon Cazalet: its been debunked again and again
Rhiannon Dragoone: I'm not quite with Nozick, who believes all philosophical explorations ae true
Calvino Rabeni: Unless Rhi you mean "philosophy in the large" which includes complex competition and interbreeding of partly compatible paradigms
Calvino Rabeni: but is not "performed" by any agency less than the colletive
Hokon Cazalet: anyway im gonna go, bye all
Rhiannon Dragoone: I mean by philosophy, the tradition, which has opposing viewpoints, each an exploratin and each having at least a partial truth
Rhiannon Dragoone: bye, hokon
Rhiannon Dragoone: nice arguing with you
Calvino Rabeni: Was good to see you Hokon :)
Hokon Cazalet: btw, im not an objectivist
Hokon Cazalet: hehe see ya all =)
Calvino Rabeni: Yeah come again :)
Hokon Cazalet: im something more insane
Hokon Cazalet: MWHAHAHA!!!
Calvino Rabeni: Ok, next time ....
Calvino Rabeni: Getting back to what you said last
Rhiannon Dragoone: ok, Cal
Rhiannon Dragoone: And Tewair, please feel free to join in
Calvino Rabeni: "philosophy, the tradition, which has opposing viewpoints, each an exploratin and each having at least a partial truth"
--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: hmmm, that must be an informal processs ... An exploration involving paradigms not well defined / understood, not necessarily commensurate, with ambiguous common ground
Rhiannon Dragoone: well, depends on what you mean by informal
Calvino Rabeni: SO I'm not sure in what sense the viewpoints are opposing
Rhiannon Dragoone: yeah, doesn't involve mathematics necessarily, but there are procedures built into the tradtion
Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, for instance, a belief that the world had a beginning and didn't have a beginning
Calvino Rabeni: THE tradition?
Tewair Faerye: my appologies. exuse me my interfering in your converasation.. buttheboard is not telling much about the Place and it's purposes.. is there any notecard or a info board i could learn about here?
Rhiannon Dragoone: well, i'm thinking of Western philosophy
Calvino Rabeni: Yes I'll forward you one
Rhiannon Dragoone: yeah, there's a lot of lag tonight
Tewair Faerye: yes, please.
Calvino Rabeni: The first thing I have to tell a newcomer, is that the chat here is recorded and published on the group web site
Calvino Rabeni: WHich means there's no expectation of confidentiality or privacy
Calvino Rabeni: Most people find that acceptable, but if they don't I can remove their statments
Tewair Faerye: why thank you for the notification.
Tewair Faerye: i tpes tothe location by incident and overheard the discussio. found it interesting
Calvino Rabeni: It looks a little different every time depending on who's here
Tewair Faerye: thank you for the notecard. will read it through.
Tewair Faerye: ok
Calvino Rabeni: but the basic style seems to be more contemplative than discussion/debate
Rhiannon Dragoone: yeah, tonight was very philosophical; other times, ppl just share their feelings
Calvino Rabeni: feelings or experiences
Calvino Rabeni: or their expressions
Rhiannon Dragoone: There was one on the experience of time at 1pm today
Tewair Faerye: mm.. not so many places to be seriouse in SL
Rhiannon Dragoone: And a dozen ppl were here
Calvino Rabeni: This place is intended to find a balance between serious and play
Calvino Rabeni: The name of the group is "Play as Being"
Rhiannon Dragoone: Tewair, would you like to join my group? I give phil discussions 2x a week, and i'm a clearing house for other groups that give serious discussion; i even alerted my group to Play at Being
Rhiannon Dragoone: I estimated tht you could do 20 plus hours a week of "serious" philosophy or public policy discussions
Tewair Faerye: well i still have to learn the backgrounds and visit some meeting before i actually join in.. what i justdo not fit those discussions? i dont' feel like being non contributive
Tewair Faerye: butthank you verymuch for invitation. :)
Calvino Rabeni: Its fine to sit here and not contribut, Tewair :)
Tewair Faerye: :)
Calvino Rabeni: Maybe not *disrupt*, but some people like to kind of lurk
Calvino Rabeni: and sometimes
Calvino Rabeni: this is a meditation group
Tewair Faerye: ok :) then i andmark the place and will come here sometime
Tewair Faerye: o lurking is not about me
Calvino Rabeni: in which silence is perfectly part of what happens
Tewair Faerye: :)
Calvino Rabeni: The group is international, and meets four times per day
Calvino Rabeni: that makes it easy to remember :)
Calvino Rabeni: 1am 7am 1pm 7pm
Calvino Rabeni: 24/365 and all that :)
Tewair Faerye: :) thank you for ur kind attention and for the information youprovided
Tewair Faerye: i appreciate that :)
Calvino Rabeni: quite welcome Tewair
Tewair Faerye: i thik i finally will come :)
Tewair Faerye: bye for now though
Calvino Rabeni: Bye :)
Rhiannon Dragoone: bye, tewair
--BELL--

Rhiannon Dragoone: hi paradise
Paradise Tennant: smiles late late session ?
Paradise Tennant: hiya cal rhia :)
Calvino Rabeni: yes, still here
Rhiannon Dragoone: well, i'm abou to leave, but yeah, it's been fun
Rhiannon Dragoone: Dare I say~philosophical?
Calvino Rabeni: *it happens* what can I say ? :)
Rhiannon Dragoone: And sorry i'm standing here like this; it's a long story about bandwidth and lag and viewer failure
Paradise Tennant: on my screen it looks like you have shower stall on
Paradise Tennant: no worries
Calvino Rabeni: That's my doing I'm afraid
Calvino Rabeni: I think she's mostly disconnected
--BELL--

Paradise Tennant: so another lively session ?
Rhiannon Dragoone: yeah, please take that off, Cal
Calvino Rabeni: You're free
Rhiannon Dragoone: ty
Calvino Rabeni: it wasn't actually on, or containing you
Rhiannon Dragoone: well,i gotta log
Calvino Rabeni: Take care Rhia
Rhiannon Dragoone: well, thank you for that
Paradise Tennant: smiles have a good evening rhia :)
Rhiannon Dragoone: It's my Philosophy Island syndrome; they do put containers around you there
Rhiannon Dragoone: So you can't move
Calvino Rabeni: realy
Rhiannon Dragoone: oh, you 2 Paradise
Calvino Rabeni: humph
Rhiannon Dragoone: So it's not quite PTSD, but having spent almost a year there, i get nervous easily. Why i'm edgy about ppl's attitudes toward me here
Rhiannon Dragoone: But you and Pardise have been just great!
Rhiannon Dragoone: Anyway, got to log
Calvino Rabeni: TY Rhiannon
Calvino Rabeni: How are you Paradise?
Paradise Tennant: very well thanks .. long hectic day
Paradise Tennant: took my mom to Blue's xmas party
Paradise Tennant: 40 dogs in a room ..many dressed up for santa !
Paradise Tennant: bedlam
Paradise Tennant: smiles she loved it !
Calvino Rabeni: hehehe
Paradise Tennant: treat table ... set low for doggie noses
Calvino Rabeni: I know a group that has a weekly dance party
Calvino Rabeni: one time they decided it was "bring your dog day"
Paradise Tennant: doggie dancing
Paradise Tennant: cool!
Paradise Tennant: my dog walker hosted this one does it every year .. really nice event :) bought some baked goods had on pup unzip my bag twice and almost make off with some meat pies! smart pup
Paradise Tennant: there is a place where they have doggie dance classes ie. learn dance routines with your dog
Calvino Rabeni: I knew a dog - cocker spaniel - it acted REALLY DUMB but it turned out it was just interested in food, at which it was a genius
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Calvino Rabeni: I bought a loaf of bread, hid it in my shirt, put that into my pack, put the pack behind the couch and covered it
Paradise Tennant: hiya mitzi this is the late late session gtsy :)
Calvino Rabeni: later when I came back the dog had eaten the whole loaf
Paradise Tennant: lol
Calvino Rabeni: not being troubled by finding it and unzipping it and getting it out of the bag, etc.
Calvino Rabeni: and leaving the pack where it was
Calvino Rabeni: I was impressed
Paradise Tennant: once had a dog eat the bar of soap off the bathtub edge :)
Calvino Rabeni: ack
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hi you two, so glad you're both still here. Sorry for being so very late!
Calvino Rabeni: I knew one that ate a zipper
Calvino Rabeni: Hi Mitzi
Calvino Rabeni: good to see you
Paradise Tennant: butter in the cupboard was fair game ..would only catch her in her later years when she got deaf :)
Paradise Tennant: smiles just got here too
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, dogs eating strange things, very engaging topic!
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Why do they do that.
Calvino Rabeni: Now I have a siamese kitten - it SO wants to get into EVERYWHERE
Paradise Tennant: frozen whole turkey including the brown paper ..
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Calvino Rabeni: that for instance it pulls out the metal sink stopper and then reaches down inside the hole
Calvino Rabeni: just to see what is in there
Calvino Rabeni: there is NO place it hasn't explored
Mitzi Mimistrobell: My neighbor's kitty is very shy ... yet, she was ready to enter my house when I had the door open ... I saw curiosity and fear fighting with each other in her ...
Paradise Tennant: once had a kitten slide down the heating duct to land in the furnace happily in the summer months .. but it meowing echoed through the house like a plaintiff ghost took a while to find her :)
Paradise Tennant: smiles fear and curiosity :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: lucky kitten that you got her out!
Paradise Tennant: had a friend's dog who would answer her calls when the phone rang would not the receiver off and bark at it :) she had to put on call forward when she went to work
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I have a theory about human behavior that this fear/cuiosity reminded me of ...
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Want to hear about it ...?
Paradise Tennant: listens
Calvino Rabeni: yes of course lay it on, I'm curious
Calvino Rabeni: or more than worried what I might hear
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I think our social behavior is governed by layers of fear. So, we're afraid of the dominant leaders of our tribe ... so we conform ... (and probably not consciously aware of this layer of fear) ...
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Then, on top of that is fear of the outsiders. So, we are MORE afraid of them because at least the tribal leaders are on our side ...
--BELL--

Mitzi Mimistrobell: But, peel off the fear and we all are ready to dominate and torture others, as the Stanford prison experiments showed. ...
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Sounds so awful ... but there it is ... Sigh ...
Paradise Tennant: hmmm do not believe that is true of everyone alarming as though studies suggest it is .. but we get easily desensitized .. why I do not watch violence :) do not think it is a healthy thing to do
Mitzi Mimistrobell: This helps explain bullying ... important part of our social conditioning. Find our place in the pecking order.
Paradise Tennant: pack behaviour
Calvino Rabeni: I rather like our PaB "pack" :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes. It's an efficient if crude method of self-organizing a society. There are naturally dominant and naturally less-so individuals ... they sort themselves into a structure and by god, stuff gets done.
Calvino Rabeni: you sounded almost apologetic
Paradise Tennant: smiles you need some dominance in a group
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Ah ... do you see evidence of this in the Pab pack, or is there a glimmer of enlightened group behavior here?
Paradise Tennant: some organizing
Paradise Tennant: looks and Cal and listens
Calvino Rabeni: Pack as Being
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Ha ha ha ha ha!
Mitzi Mimistrobell: (fun with "gestures")
Calvino Rabeni: So I'm thinking, being enlightened is a property of the group also
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Did I sound apologetic? almost? I thought I was being a gritty hard-ass ...
Calvino Rabeni: I thought so :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: an emergent property .... ?
Calvino Rabeni: That you think its "hard ass"
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, emergent
Calvino Rabeni: but what I relate to in your idea, is simply the notion to look at an emotion as being part of a social structure
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, of course, that makes sense. Fractal like ... each level replicates the structure of its components
Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... and adds its own properties as well ...
Calvino Rabeni: Here's what made me think "apologetic" -
Calvino Rabeni: Sounds so awful ... but there it is ... Sigh ...
Mitzi Mimistrobell: (still enjoying the champagne punch, by the way ... all this philosophizing makes one thirsty ...)
Calvino Rabeni: (quoted)
Calvino Rabeni: You missed some hard core
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, I feel a bit of shame for the human race ... disdain ...
Mitzi Mimistrobell: What did I miss, calvino?
Calvino Rabeni likes that topic
Paradise Tennant: shame ?
Calvino Rabeni: Well more the shame than the disdain, although that could be interesting too
Paradise Tennant: so is fear :) that is a challenging one too :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: YOu know, like, reality TV and all ... if some aliens came here, I would try to rush themm past that and show them wonderful architecture, natural wonders, but avoid some of our cruder manifestations ...
Calvino Rabeni: Here's the "theme weather report" .... in the groups around me the buzz is about ... (1) authenticity (or lying), (2) shame (or empathy), (3) intersubjectivity
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Reality TV reminds me of the ancient Romans' spectacles of gladiators, animals, etc. killing each other ina public arena ... I was thinking we are past that, maybe a titch past that ...
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I love that! The "theme weather report"
Paradise Tennant: hmm walked through the forum in january .. it had a very heavy feel to it was happy to go
Calvino Rabeni: The barometer for the theme weather .... is the pressure rising or falling ... meaning, are there some new insights and creative thoughts happening
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Remind me what "intersubjectivity" means?
Calvino Rabeni: it means subjectivity that is shared, part of the "between" among people
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Do you feel the barometer rising? I would say that I feel that in my little corner of the universe here in Boulder, Colorado ...
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Calvino Rabeni: its rising around at least those topics in this little bayou
--BELL--

Mitzi Mimistrobell: To be intersubjective, does it need to be seen as such by those feeling the similar things? Or could it be unconscious but just a manifestation of underlying resonance/connectivity/whatever?
Calvino Rabeni: Excellent distinction Mitzi :) there are emergent and contrasting or complementary models, but some of them indeed look at the influence of collective unconscious processes
Calvino Rabeni: Basically it's hard to think about .. its the water to which we are the fish
Calvino Rabeni: In other words there are background structures that are the "subject" proir to the formation of experience, and that means, not accessible to direct experiential knowing
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Uh huh ... so that's interesting that this topic is even being discussed .... shows people are looking a bit deeper perhaps?
Calvino Rabeni: and some of them collective
Calvino Rabeni: but there's plenty of paradigms to go around
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, it's interesting the different groups that are looking
Mitzi Mimistrobell: But what's high on the "meme-ometer" is what we were touching upon ...
Paradise Tennant: hmm swung by work tonight walking home ..by an lovely soccer field blue and I did a run about .. no one around .. we jumped danced ran .. twirled .. for a moment looking up the black moonless sky . it made me think of just being energy .. corked up in a bottle of sorts :) sometimes think .. that is pretty much it in groups it is just shared energy :)
Calvino Rabeni nods
Calvino Rabeni: energy ... a felt sense of something that exists, but is prior to interpretation
Paradise Tennant: we feel it .
Paradise Tennant: versus think it
Calvino Rabeni: One interesting phrase is "the feeling of knowing"
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I can relate to that image, Paradise - "being cooped up in a bottle of sorts" - yes, that's what it feels like to me sometimes. Or, that I'm the universal consciousness peeping through a tiny, very specific little peephole into a miniature world of wonders, like a dollhouse, or the "Borrowers" that holds a certain fascination ..."
Paradise Tennant: smiles at mitzi and nods yes !
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Like God is fascinated with my life like an amazing fairy world ... tiny things that don't exist at the larger level.
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I feel that the same invisible forces that make us so definitely separate beings even though our energy is identical ... is also structuring these group connections that are hidden from us
Mitzi Mimistrobell: keeping them hidden from us I mean. Not sure if I said what I mean, or even if I *know* what I mean to say here ...
Calvino Rabeni: Is anyone up for a sit - maybe 10 minutes from 10:00to 10:10?
Calvino Rabeni: We could frame one of these ideas for contemplation .. or just do a heart meditaiton
Mitzi Mimistrobell: All right, I like that idea.
Calvino Rabeni: Separateness and connection perhaps
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Paradise Tennant: sometimes think there are strings :) we just do not see :) but our heart knows somehwo
Paradise Tennant: 10 minutes sounds great
Calvino Rabeni: If I fall asleep, the next bell will wake me up at 15 :)
--BELL--

Mitzi Mimistrobell: Can you frame the contemplation for us please Calvino? I think that would help me focus
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Separateness and connection it is.
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Are we still contemplating? (shyly)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: very nice ...
Calvino Rabeni: (ting)
Paradise Tennant: blinks and smiles
Mitzi Mimistrobell: ...
Mitzi Mimistrobell: well I felt connected to both of you ...
Paradise Tennant: smiles a very big smile at mitzi me too :)
Paradise Tennant: nice feeling :) to be still together :)
Calvino Rabeni: a very delicious taste
--BELL--

Paradise Tennant: blows out her candle ..watches the smoke rise from it in lazy spirals ..
Paradise Tennant: sighs and rises to say good night ..the sand man cometh :)
Paradise Tennant: sweet dreams you two :))
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I was thinking that the more refined / "spiritual" our experience is, the more we feel connected, and the more crude and heavy, the more we feel separated.
Calvino Rabeni: Fly well, Paradise :)
Paradise Tennant: very profound thought mitzi
Paradise Tennant: very true
Mitzi Mimistrobell: seeing that reality is like a "pousse-cafe" cocktail ... where
Mitzi Mimistrobell: \the denser layers sink and the lighter layers rise
Calvino Rabeni: A sit like that can create a great deal of those subtle upper layers
Paradise Tennant: smiles :) namaste :)
Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Namaste and sweet dreams to you as well, Paradise ...
Paradise Tennant: thank you mitzi cal lovely session will sleep well :) with thoughts of cocktails and puppy dogs :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Always good to be with you.
Calvino Rabeni: <333
Calvino Rabeni: Thanks for stopping by,Mitzi :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I hate to miss it you know ... it's gotten to be quite the Sunday evening habit for me.
Calvino Rabeni smiles
Calvino Rabeni: Yes same feeling here
Calvino Rabeni: Its the "mix"
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes
Calvino Rabeni: For the log - http://www.amazon.com/Unspoken-Voice-Releases-Restores-Goodness/dp/1556439431
Calvino Rabeni: Its apropos of another conversation on Basic Goodness
Calvino Rabeni: that we were having in a more buddhist context
Mitzi Mimistrobell: That should be a good antidote to disdain and shame for humanity!
Calvino Rabeni: yes it should :)
Calvino Rabeni: I like it being tied into western ideas of mind and body
Mitzi Mimistrobell: So have a pleasant evening and adventurous dreams ...
Mitzi Mimistrobell: See you next time Calvino ...
Calvino Rabeni: Take care, Mitzi <333