2010.11.21 19:00 - Slow... Changes...

The Guardian for this meeting was Calvino Rabeni. The comments are by Calvino Rabeni.

Calvino Rabeni: Good evening Paradise <333
Paradise Tennant: hiya cal :) how are you this evening
Calvino Rabeni: I'm pretty well, if I were the moon I'd be a first quarter waxing moon :)
--BELL--

Paradise Tennant: smiles and nods :)
Calvino Rabeni: And for you?
Paradise Tennant: smiles maybe just black sky and stars tonight :)
Calvino Rabeni: That's a good time for seeing meteorites
Paradise Tennant: what would you like to talk about tonight polyhedrons :)
Paradise Tennant: yes have you seen a meteorite?
Calvino Rabeni: Not since the Perseids in August
Paradise Tennant: big smile mitzi is online !
Paradise Tennant: they were spectacular I heard but did not see :)
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, Mitzi appears like a meteorite
Calvino Rabeni: I was thinking about that state of mind one gets into, to see meteorites
Calvino Rabeni: Good evening Geo and Mitzi
Paradise Tennant: listens
Geo Solari: Hello. Can i sit here?
Calvino Rabeni: The meteorites don't come when I want or expect
Calvino Rabeni: Yes pleas, Geo
Paradise Tennant: welcome geo nice to see you again
Calvino Rabeni: And they don't come very often
Calvino Rabeni: and if I'm thinking about something else I might overlook them
Paradise Tennant: hiya mitzi good to see you !
Calvino Rabeni: And looking in one spot in the sky, easy to miss one in another place
Paradise Tennant: smiles kind of like the really precious moments of life .. they can slip by when you blink
Calvino Rabeni: (meteorite viewing, Mitzi)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hello my dears. Nice to see the both of you tonight.
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Calvino Rabeni: And a kind of relaxed wide angle quiet state of mind is best to see them
Calvino Rabeni: but relaxed and alert and sensitive
Calvino Rabeni: Which implies all kinds of other things
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I've gotten more interested in peripheral vision recently
Calvino Rabeni: like "dropping" the spin or whatever
Calvino Rabeni: Yup, Mitzi that is a fascinating topic
Calvino Rabeni: for meteorites and other ways of seeing too
Calvino Rabeni: what have you been considering about that vision?
Paradise Tennant: hiya blissful :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: well, I do this Gurdjieff Movements practice, and in that class we've been asked to develop that capacity
Blissful Badger: Hello
Calvino Rabeni: Hi Steve and Bliss :)
stevenaia Michinaga: evening
Blissful Badger: Hi Calvino
Paradise Tennant: hiya stevenaia :) gtsy
Mitzi Mimistrobell: in order to be aware of everyone else so we can move forward and backwards together in perfect alignment ... not that that happens all the time!
Calvino Rabeni: Field awareness
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hi Steve, Blissful one
Blissful Badger: sounds like a chorus line!
Calvino Rabeni: and non-distracting too
Calvino Rabeni: maybe like another channel at the same time?
Mitzi Mimistrobell: yes, very much so. I find it helps me in nature meditation. when I broaden my view, somehow I feel calmer.
Calvino Rabeni: In the martial arts its a similar thing - called 8-direction awareness and "soft eyes"
Calvino Rabeni: The peripheral vision can be calming
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Perhaps more related to the whole? Or, as you intimated, it does a different thing in the nervous system?
stevenaia Michinaga: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7430376162567485658#
Blissful Badger: what's that Steve?
Calvino Rabeni: I believe its a pretty separate vision capability
stevenaia Michinaga: Gurdjieff's Movements
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Thanks Stevenaia, that's a wonderful clip!
stevenaia Michinaga: never heard of it till jsut now, thank you Mitzi
Mitzi Mimistrobell: One of my teachers in my class was taught by one of the male performers in that movie.
--BELL--

Blissful Badger: fascinating
Paradise Tennant: wow
Paradise Tennant: just wow
Blissful Badger: a bit disturbing. like automatons
Calvino Rabeni: There is something disturbing in the experience (from my point of view)
Blissful Badger: but will read more
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, robotic in a way ...
Blissful Badger: yes
Calvino Rabeni: However, that's actually a kind of common property of some practices that are unfamiliar at first
Blissful Badger: yes
Calvino Rabeni: and later they get assimilated into a new level of naturalness
Calvino Rabeni: or can, but it might take persiisting
Blissful Badger: like anything that is unfamiliar
Calvino Rabeni: yes,
stevenaia Michinaga: where is it from?
Paradise Tennant: like kata in karate :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I'm no expert but I think each dance performs a specific function ... some embody specific universal laws which might be a reason why they seem autonomic ...
Calvino Rabeni: Or doing musical scales
Blissful Badger: like anything that is memorized
Paradise Tennant: or the sufi whirling dances
Blissful Badger: they are intended to take one into another state of consciousness
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Some are soft and flowing and really different than those ... have a reverent feeling
Blissful Badger: paerhaps these are too
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Others are martial and have very exciting music
Blissful Badger: the purpose being what exactly?
Calvino Rabeni: there is more than one type of approach to developing a larger set of embodied skills .... one is to practice something outside the familar - something weird-seeming, until it gets more familiar
Paradise Tennant: to connect to the flow
Mitzi Mimistrobell: To my limited understanding, the purpose is to align the thinking, feeling, and moving functions of the body, which usually operate independently.
Calvino Rabeni: I could be wrong but I see these movements as that type of practice
Blissful Badger: we canbe made to accept anything?
Blissful Badger: to reach another state of consciousness?
Calvino Rabeni: To develop the bodymind and integrate it
Paradise Tennant: there is also something about moving in a group that is powerful
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Thus harmonizing the function of the human body. These are so difficult they are impossible to do without the participation of attention in these three different capacities of the body.
Paradise Tennant: a melding
Calvino Rabeni: increase its range of competencies and behaviours
stevenaia Michinaga: many similar things can focus the mind and body, most cultures possess things like this
Blissful Badger: yes. but I find it frightening, dont you?
Mitzi Mimistrobell: how frightening?
Blissful Badger: a group is different from an individual
stevenaia Michinaga: that's in intersting take on something new, Bliss
Blissful Badger: the group think quality - it become somewat minless
Blissful Badger: mindless
Blissful Badger: but at the same time I understand the reason for it
Calvino Rabeni: The group mind is in a lot of ways separate and running independently from the individual mind
Blissful Badger: how do you mean steve?
Calvino Rabeni: have you every been inspired by being around a smart and lively group?
Blissful Badger: yes Cal
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Gurdjieff's message was that human beings operate in a wildly disjointed manner, with one and then another temporary "self" grabbing control of the body, with the result being poorly coordinated and even disastrous consequences for the individual.
Calvino Rabeni: its intelligent group think
Blissful Badger: yes but a lively group that has a diversity of ideas and expressions Cal
Mitzi Mimistrobell: So he felt it was of prime importance to become aware of this situation within ourselves, and try to bring our many "selves" into more integration. Quite a challenge I feel!
Calvino Rabeni: surely :)
Blissful Badger: yes but it feels very theoretical.
Mitzi Mimistrobell: In this gathering, we are attempting to build a group awareness and we like it or we would not be here ...
Calvino Rabeni: I can just imagine what he'd have done with modern knowledge of neurophysiology
Calvino Rabeni: which we're only recently starting to get
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Ha! Fascinating!
Calvino Rabeni: the kind of scientific knowledge needed for anything like that endeavor
Blissful Badger: Are we attempting to build a gorup awareness here Mitzi?
Blissful Badger: group?
Blissful Badger: Or are we each trying to understand ourslves and the world a little better?
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Well, we may or may not be attempting to ... but nevertheless I believe it happens naturally
Calvino Rabeni: "May or may not be " ...
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I sympathize with the feeling of distrust of groups. There are few good examples and a lot of terrible ones
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Calvino, is that one of your goals as Guardian and group facilitator here?
Blissful Badger: Yes, perhaps that is what is making me uncomfortable about this
Calvino Rabeni: Well, Mitzi, might it be fair to say, we feel the bad examples and remember them?
Calvino Rabeni: and forget the good ones?
Calvino Rabeni: Which is a primitive human filter I suppose
Calvino Rabeni: but not an objective view of things
Blissful Badger: It's when the group think becomes irresponsible. Like a corporatin where no one is responsible
Calvino Rabeni: the worst case scenarios have the greatest salience
Blissful Badger: corporation
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I don't think that's "fair to say" because some people remember the good ones too. Let's not generalize about this specific topic - people's experiences are too individualized
Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps your're right, but we have general attitudes too
Blissful Badger: yes, but I'm sure we have much in common
Calvino Rabeni: mention "group think" or even "collective intelligence" and it turns up a negative bias
Blissful Badger: the Neurenberg rallies for instance
Calvino Rabeni: Where a lot of people will jump to defend their individuality
Paradise Tennant: hmm not so sure .. at some level we are all one sort of consciouness :)
Calvino Rabeni: against the fear of oppression or something
--BELL--

Blissful Badger: perhaps
Blissful Badger: The collective unconscious? Is there such a thing? Do we change the collective or the individual?
Calvino Rabeni: But then, what Paradise says may be closer to the truth in an objective sense rather than an attitudinal one
Blissful Badger: 2 questions
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Calvino Rabeni: I was noticing during that pause, the tendency to get over-focused on the content and the speech drama
Blissful Badger: over focused?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, narrowed and specialized,
Calvino Rabeni: taking less field awareness,
Blissful Badger: Is it bettr to speak in generalities?
Calvino Rabeni: and taking a kind of posture that's physical
Blissful Badger: ?
stevenaia Michinaga: hello hana
Hana Furlough: Hi everyone!
Calvino Rabeni: Hi Hana :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Calvino are you speaking of your own experience? Or sensing something in the group in general ...?
Paradise Tennant: hiya hana gtsy :))
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hello Hana, nice to see you again.
Blissful Badger: Hana - hi. I'm Aph's alt while she's stuck
Calvino Rabeni: I was doing some self observing
Blissful Badger listens intently
Calvino Rabeni: and also thinking of recent studies that look at that kind of thing from the third person view
Paradise Tennant: smiles at bliss ..and hopes aph is freed soon :)
Blissful Badger: /bliss grins back
Hana Furlough: Poor Aph!
Blissful Badger: We are having a really interesting discussion
Blissful Badger wonders how to summarize it
Calvino Rabeni: Linguistics is pretty conservative as a discipline
Blissful Badger: How conservastive?
Calvino Rabeni: but seems to be moving into the ability to consider language as embodied
Blissful Badger: as action?
Calvino Rabeni: that is to build theories that allow for language as an activity of the body and mind together
Hana Furlough: language as embodied.... is that like performance?
Calvino Rabeni: both correlated
Mitzi Mimistrobell: language uses muscles and the body, so yes, it's embodied ...
Calvino Rabeni: which brings us back to what Mitzi was saying about the idea of integrating the different functions of the bodymind
Blissful Badger: through language?
Paradise Tennant: and movement
Calvino Rabeni: but it's good to see the linguistic paradigms usedd in academia slowly incorporating that idea
Calvino Rabeni: Yes language as movement, language as acet
Hana Furlough: not quickly enough it seems :)
Calvino Rabeni: *act
Blissful Badger: the fact that it is slow makes it conservative Cal?
Calvino Rabeni: not quickly enough - ... yes that's what I meant by conservative
Calvino Rabeni: very careful, not changing until things are proved, or until somehow an idea as seeped into the entire coulture
Hana Furlough: it can be a bummer sometimes
Calvino Rabeni: sometimes it takes a generation, influenced by outside cultural changes
Calvino Rabeni: that don't have anythhing to do directly with the discipline
Hana Furlough: or more than a generation
Hana Furlough: i think that's the key, cal
Blissful Badger: yes.but thinking things through well is not a bad approach
Calvino Rabeni: more like change comes from outside the discipline and it adapts
Hana Furlough: plus the humanistic disciplines are very enamored with scientific paradigms
Blissful Badger: it all interconnects though Language teory has influenced other fields of thinking
Blissful Badger: theory
Hana Furlough: not that there is anything wrong with that, but it is just one "way of knowing," so to speak
Calvino Rabeni: The scientific paradigms are often the way that things that are anomalous get incorporated
Blissful Badger: or one way of organizing our concepts
Hana Furlough: exactly
Hana Furlough: can you say more, cal?
Blissful Badger: as new facts come in the structure changes to accommodate them
Blissful Badger: we are constantly adapting and changing in eternal feedback loops
Calvino Rabeni: When the existing theories can't explain observations in a satisfactory way, the scientific philosophy is stressed and challenged
Blissful Badger: /me cant believe she just said that
Paradise Tennant: not knowing ..
Paradise Tennant: can be stressful :)
Paradise Tennant: but mostly we do not know we just pretend otherwise :)
Paradise Tennant: smiles :)
Blissful Badger: but coming up with new explanations can be fun
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Blissful Badger: but not necessarily correct
Hana Furlough: it's all part of the endless play
Calvino Rabeni: Never truly correct
Calvino Rabeni: However not completely arbitrary either
Hana Furlough: exactly
Calvino Rabeni: but somewhat systematic
Hana Furlough: it is not an arbitrary kind of play exactly
Hana Furlough: something beyond random?
Blissful Badger: It's just the group think that makes me nervous. I've just been reading a book that discusses the McCarthy era.
Paradise Tennant: horrible time
Blissful Badger: People were brainwahsed
--BELL--

Blissful Badger: and indoctrinated with the fear of communism - without their really knowing what communism was. To speak out against this group think was considered unamerican and treasonous.
Calvino Rabeni: So for example, the classic theories of linguistics have been too arbitrary to deal with embodied cognition, meaning, and social speech acts
Paradise Tennant: many did though :)
Calvino Rabeni: The mccarthy era was also the behaviorist era of psychology
Blissful Badger: yes?
Blissful Badger: meaning?
Blissful Badger: was this when Behaviourism was studied?
Paradise Tennant: sigh I have a very early morning .. going to look forward to reading this log :) thank you .. namaste my friends :)
Calvino Rabeni: So as a cultural shift, the view that people had a public right to their interiority, was part of the liberalization both of psychology and political values
Blissful Badger: using the events of this era as a case study?
Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
Calvino Rabeni: <333
Blissful Badger: ?
Blissful Badger: interesting thanks Cal
Hana Furlough: must run for now
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I agree that the human race when it acts in groups seems to most frequently manifest that group energy in unthinking, defensive and often violent ways that seem either fear driven or intolerant of nonconformity ... so these days we are just possibly wiggling out of the cocoon maybe, so to speak, to explore how else we could manifest energy in groups ...
Hana Furlough: thanks for a great short chat
Hana Furlough: and see you all soon!
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Bye Paradise! Oops she's already gone ...
Calvino Rabeni: Great to see you Hana
Blissful Badger: Bye Hana
Mitzi Mimistrobell: So long, Hana
Blissful Badger: nicely summarized Mitzi
Calvino Rabeni: Yes Mitzi
Calvino Rabeni: how are we wiggling out of the cocoon in this time in history?
Blissful Badger: I'd love to think we are but I ahve my doubts!
Calvino Rabeni: Everyone has a part to play .... each individual and each discipline ... but might not know they are working together around common themes
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I am just as leery of groups as anyone! But I've also found that the synergy of working, combining energy with others, produces results just impossible to achieve by a single individual ... also, as social animals we can't resist hanging out with each other. So I've decided to keep looking at all that to see what's good and how to play with that more ...
Calvino Rabeni: So the linguists see it one way, the dancers another, the writers another, etc.
Calvino Rabeni: Yes it's worth it, Mitzi
Blissful Badger: As there is some process within the group dynamic to allow for alternate opinions, I see no problenms
Calvino Rabeni: worth getting into ... what did someone call it .. the uncomfortable zones
Blissful Badger: Alling for diversity of ideas, actions, values that achieve a common cause?
Blissful Badger: Allowing for
Calvino Rabeni: A synergy of common causes
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I've also seen organizations where consensus=based decision making process bogs down all action to a total standstill. Because people just have different opinions. So how does one move forward with action in a group considering how different everyone's opinions ar?
Blissful Badger: yes! allowing for uncomforable zones!
Calvino Rabeni: which may, I hesitate to say, incorporate some conflicts and dialectics
Blissful Badger: yes. and get a good facilitator!
Blissful Badger: and allow for a lot of time
Calvino Rabeni: I'd say, everyone can learn a little facilitation, or a little of the ability to respond
Blissful Badger: debate is great within a safe space
Calvino Rabeni: The safe container yes
Blissful Badger: what did Habermas call it: the ideal speach situation?
Calvino Rabeni: in a lot of ways the safe container has more to do with experiences and relationships
Blissful Badger: Theoretically that's what democratic governments are
Blissful Badger: can you say more Cal?
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Calvino, here's a question: about the safe container. For some, the same safety where they can express freely produces expressions that other's perceive as attacking and unsafe.
Calvino Rabeni: The idea of a group is often artificial ... if it forms for a specific purpose its often a brittle structure
Blissful Badger: how brittle?
Calvino Rabeni: on the other hand, if the people in the group have a great deal in common otherwise, includeing personal relationships, that involve trust, than that group will be much more resiliient
Mitzi Mimistrobell: People have differing self-defintions of "Safety". Vastly differing! Somewhere people have to sign off on an agreed upon way of resolving conflicts and making rules to govern the group.
Geo Solari: Cal, can you explain why it is brittle please?
Calvino Rabeni: Its brittle because its formed by an "idea" rather than by emotional commitments people have to each other
Calvino Rabeni: there was a good essay on the civil rights movement recently in the New Yorker
Blissful Badger: I agree that trust is an essential oil that moves the wheels of consencus
Calvino Rabeni: pointing out what a difficult and challenging movement it was
Blissful Badger: consensus
Calvino Rabeni: It absolutely depended on the pre-existence of the web of relationships of the southern churches
Calvino Rabeni: the way the people knew and trusted each other
Calvino Rabeni: and also some good organizational leadership
Calvino Rabeni: but without the web of relationships, the leadership would have not been effective
--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: because the structure would have been too brittle
Blissful Badger: which southern churches are you referring to
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Black southern churches
Blissful Badger: Oh, of course
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Calvino Rabeni: this essay got people thinking / talking about this matter
Calvino Rabeni: http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&num=10&hl=en&q=lcolm+gladwell+civil+rights+new+yorker
Blissful Badger: Being from Canada the reference is a bit obscure
Calvino Rabeni: about what it takes for change, what the container might be
Calvino Rabeni: its social dimensions
Blissful Badger: the social context
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Calvino Rabeni: its not like some individual decides - I'm not gonna take it any more, I'm going to rock the boat
Calvino Rabeni: there's a lot more to it
Calvino Rabeni: although typically the leaders and individuals get valorized
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Thanks, Calvino, that's very insightful about the pre-existing web of relationships (and trust) being the necessary underlying structure .. the resilience, etc. ...
Blissful Badger: It happens when there is more than one voice in the wilderness, a collective
Calvino Rabeni: Like Rosa Parks ... well she'd been attending support groups for interfaith dialogue and race relations for some time, gathering group consciousness and support
Blissful Badger: for the benefit of all. Trouble is those movements often turn ugly - look at Germany, China,
Calvino Rabeni: so in a way she and her actions were an expression of those groups
Blissful Badger: and vice versa
Calvino Rabeni: And I'd guess, a lot of the time it looked pretty pointless to the participants
Calvino Rabeni: thinking - what the **** good will this do?
Calvino Rabeni: As they struggled out of their cocoons
Blissful Badger: she was doing collective action long before she sat in the front of the bus
Calvino Rabeni: exactly
Calvino Rabeni: And when someone knows ... that a radical change is needed, it's not well-defined and clear to think about
Calvino Rabeni: quite the opposite usually
Calvino Rabeni: awkward, chaotic, troublesome-seeming
Blissful Badger: It's fuelled by passion and not rational thought?
Blissful Badger: that's where good leaders are needed
Calvino Rabeni: Theres something to be said for that I think
Calvino Rabeni: the rational thought is often, an after-thought
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Martin Luther King educated his movement to stick resolutely to the non-violent approach of Gandhi, and how powerful that turned out to be! So that's a great example of strugging out of the cocoon ... and a good reason why King is so praised and admired - justifiably so in my opinion. Also he was a fantastic orator, very amazing.
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, but so were any of the individual who got up to speak in their small groups
Calvino Rabeni: they were the cocoon breakers
Mitzi Mimistrobell: No doubt.
Calvino Rabeni: King was a focuser
Calvino Rabeni: of the light that was already there
Geo Solari: I think that passion gives the necessaty energy toa group to exist. Reason reduces the entropy or better disorder
Blissful Badger: One would need a leader with passion and clear plan of action in order to sustain the energy
Calvino Rabeni: Reason seems to go along with systems and theories ... when those need to change, then reason can be a conservative force
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, Geo, I agree. Both are necessary. The art of the leadership is to create a good recipe with the right amount of each and apply the right amount of heat at the right times to bake the cake
Calvino Rabeni: Except perhaps for visionary leaders, but even there, I feel they only make coherent, other people's thinking, the collective thiniking
Blissful Badger: and to pass on the recipe to othrs
stevenaia Michinaga: sometimes the power of the simple message soars higher
Blissful Badger: so it is sustainable
Blissful Badger: Can't just bake the cake once
Calvino Rabeni: When a paradigm changes, the new way or Tao appears as "chaos" at first ... later it looks simple and obvious
Blissful Badger: That's what the Mad men say too!
Blissful Badger: (Madison avenue men)
Blissful Badger: The more you hear the message, the more convinced it is true
Blissful Badger: Sorry - I'm being argumentative.!
Blissful Badger: But IS it true?
--BELL--

Blissful Badger whispers "this skeptic is going to take her leave now. Thanks for the wonderful discussion everyone"
Calvino Rabeni: That sounds like one of those multi-sided questions :)
stevenaia Michinaga: bedtime for me too
Calvino Rabeni: And the skeptic might leave before its well formulated
Blissful Badger: :-) good
stevenaia Michinaga: night all
Calvino Rabeni: but glad to have you here :)
Calvino Rabeni: Bye Steve ... Bliss
Blissful Badger: :-) we'll talk more- for sure
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Blissful Badger ... have a blissful night ...
Mitzi Mimistrobell: who's he skeptic?
Geo Solari: Good night!
Calvino Rabeni: Badger the skeptic
Calvino Rabeni: might have been trying to steal the argumentative role
Calvino Rabeni: for tonight
Calvino Rabeni: Not that I mind, because it's a thankless job
Geo Solari: Your conversation was very thought provoking. I am excited!
Calvino Rabeni: I was thinking yesterday, what makes a conversation that people say is "a good one"
Calvino Rabeni: being provoked I think, a little, maybe excited, but for me also within the realm of getting some things to settle back down
Geo Solari: For me personally, when it makes me see a new aspect of things.
Calvino Rabeni: like a whole cycle of excitement ... frorm kind of dull, to interesting, to exciting, to accepting, to a little satisfying
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I'm curious, Geo, what specifically sparked your interest?
Calvino Rabeni: right seeing a new aspect of things is part of a learning process
Calvino Rabeni: Yes that's a good question
Calvino Rabeni: Mitzi is good at taking things to specifics, thanks :)
Geo Solari: You know your discussion brought new things to my mind. I usually think from a systems perspectivee
Calvino Rabeni: I like a systems perspective too
Geo Solari: if a group becomes large its dymanic is so large that leaders can do only little
Mitzi Mimistrobell: A kind of a self-organizing system, rather than a leader-led one? (if that makes sense ...) ,..
Calvino Rabeni: thats why we have many subgroups working in diffferent directions
Geo Solari: Yes
Calvino Rabeni: and having their conflicts
Geo Solari: Subgroups but there is not any person in the group who can feel everything that happens in the group
Calvino Rabeni: I'm trying to think of instances of that idea
--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: You're tempting me Mitzi ... :)
Geo Solari: Excuse me, Unfortunately I have to leave. Time to go to my work. I really enjoyed the discussion! I feel you are remarkable very remarkable people
Geo Solari: Bye!
Calvino Rabeni: Thanks for coming by Geo, take care, talk to you later
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Thanks Geo ,... hope you come again. I usually only come to this Sunday evening meeting. I hope to see you again another time.
Calvino Rabeni nods
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Tempting you in terms of ...???
Calvino Rabeni: Well I think you might be asking for a general idea about the difference between generality and specificity :)
Calvino Rabeni: So in other words, something like, in general, there's a reciprocal relationship between specificity an generality
Calvino Rabeni: but you might easily find specific cases to the contrary
Calvino Rabeni: As the saying goes, "in theory there's no difference between theory and practice, but in practice ... there is"
Calvino Rabeni: Anyway, I thought you might be interested in that work on embodiment in linguistics
Calvino Rabeni: because it may relate to your practical interests
Calvino Rabeni: in a theoretical way of course
Calvino Rabeni: Well I'd say specifically, I do care what "the linguists" generally think.
Calvino Rabeni: for example
Calvino Rabeni: I know a guy who is kind of pushing the envelope
Calvino Rabeni: and talks to academics in these fields
Calvino Rabeni: and notes that frequently, well they are interested in talking outside the box
Calvino Rabeni: and find it stimulating and even influential in the long run
Calvino Rabeni: but they can't justify it for public discussion within the bounds of their discipline
Calvino Rabeni: so the real changes happen in the gray area outside the box
Calvino Rabeni: What I like to do is scan the leading edges of those disciplines
Calvino Rabeni: and then try to intuitively correlate them with other changes in other disciplines
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Cool ...
Calvino Rabeni: For instance, this:
Calvino Rabeni: http://psychology.emory.edu/soundsymbolismworkshop2010/
Calvino Rabeni: They are challenging part of the dogma of linguistics
Calvino Rabeni: which assumes that language can be studied in its own abstract sphere
Calvino Rabeni: as if its an arbitrary formal system
Mitzi Mimistrobell: is that like a hidden underlying assumption?
Calvino Rabeni: and that words bear no relationship, except an arbitrary (conventional) one, to the real world things being signified
Calvino Rabeni: Yes its not very well hidden, it's part of the standard as far as I can see
Mitzi Mimistrobell: This is a lot like the whole artificial intelligence thing of meaning being the manipulation of symbols versus my own view that there is no such thing ... it's all an emergent property of a very huge complex system that emerges out of reality (Gibsonian perception) ...
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I am so glad I didn't enter academia where all the career tests say I should be
--BELL--

Mitzi Mimistrobell: The "Synaesthesia" topic looks fascinating!
Calvino Rabeni: You'd probably have felt intellectually oppressed or confined...
Calvino Rabeni: I'd say, you're just thinking a generation or two ahead of things
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I'm kind of surprised that such a perspective still persists, actually ... Yes, I checked out grad school and saw that one would be tied to a specific narrow research interest for quite a while
Calvino Rabeni: not a comfortable place to be
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I was more interested in the broader bigger quesstions ... and grad school seemed to go the exact opposite direction.
Calvino Rabeni: Right, I felt the same way in computer science
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Good thing we don't care about stuff like, money, security, health insurance, fame or fortune!
Calvino Rabeni: I've been enjoying the TED video talk collection lately
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, I'm a generation or two ahead of the bell curve. In fact, I was thinking about taxing soft drinks and junk food twenty years ago, and now that idea is getting some air time ...
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I should check that out! Do I just google TED?
Calvino Rabeni: I noticed Scott Kim has a talk on that site ... haven't watched it yet
Mitzi Mimistrobell: He DOES?!?! I will definitely watch that. He's a wonderful guy who is pretty ahead of his time as well.
Calvino Rabeni: http://www.ted.com/talks/scott_kim_takes_apart_the_art_of_puzzles.html
Calvino Rabeni: And theres a worthwhile talk on Positive Psychology
Calvino Rabeni: http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/martin_seligman_on_the_state_of_psychology.html
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Just checked out the Scott Kim video - he looks older but the same. Very confident speaker!
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I won't watch the whole thing yet though.
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Calvino Rabeni: There's also a funny talk on the Virtues of Slowness, in which the speaker talksonrealllyreallyfastandtriestogeteverythingsaidinahurrycrammedintohistimeslot
Mitzi Mimistrobell: very timely topic!
Calvino Rabeni: http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/carl_honore_praises_slowness.html
Calvino Rabeni: slow .... food .... slow .... sex .... slow ...studying at school ...
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I'm in favor of popularizing slowness. There's slow food, slow travel ... how about just slow life?
Calvino Rabeni: Yeah
Calvino Rabeni: let me think about that for a month or two
Mitzi Mimistrobell: O O O O . . . . K K K K . . . . .
Calvino Rabeni: remember
Calvino Rabeni: that
Calvino Rabeni: sto
Calvino Rabeni: ry
Calvino Rabeni: by
Calvino Rabeni: joh
Calvino Rabeni: nny
Calvino Rabeni: moses
Calvino Rabeni: about
Calvino Rabeni: the
Calvino Rabeni: sloooooow
Calvino Rabeni: ....
Calvino Rabeni: ....
Calvino Rabeni: man?
Mitzi Mimistrobell: ringing a vague bell ...
Calvino Rabeni: I'd tell it, but it would take another three hours
Calvino Rabeni: but I think one takeaway (the basic idea abstracted for speed)
Calvino Rabeni: is that the native storytellers would have these stories and story arcs
Calvino Rabeni: that went on for
--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: hmmm not sure, maybe 20 hours for a story?
Calvino Rabeni: Just guessing
Calvino Rabeni: Homeric, in other words
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Well they had nothing else to do anyway!
Calvino Rabeni: Well we do ...?
Calvino Rabeni: But could say - SAY that is ...
Calvino Rabeni: that what's happening at Play as Being is just one story
Calvino Rabeni: that's been going on four times a day for at least a couple years
Mitzi Mimistrobell: And it's all being documented for posterity which is very nice ...
Mitzi Mimistrobell: So Calvino I think I'll fly away slowly
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Thanks for yet another excellent session!
Calvino Rabeni: Disjointed as it might seem to appear ... its unity purely (but validly) a matter of perspective
Calvino Rabeni: I shall fly also - the moon's still rather full
Calvino Rabeni: Thanks as always Mitzi :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Indeed it is~!
Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Bye Cal!
Calvino Rabeni: Bye !