2010.11.25 13:00 - enlightenment beyond dualism?

The Guardian for this meeting was Lia Rikugun. The comments are by Lia Rikugun.

Lia Rikugun: heyhey yaku
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi, nabend
Lia Rikugun: wie gehts dir?
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey zon
Lia Rikugun: (Yaku eine frage dein goc slot ist noch freitags 1pm oder?)
Lia Rikugun: hello zon
Lia Rikugun: hi barcalona
Yakuzza Lethecus: yeah, right
Zon Kwan: hyea all
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi barca
Lia Rikugun: hi qt
Barcalona Rhapsody: hi all
Qt Core: Hi all
Yakuzza Lethecus: last friday i couldn´t make it to my spot but i talked to bleu at the same time as i posted the message in the mailinglist
Yakuzza Lethecus: so she took aver right away
Lia Rikugun: it was just to fill the google calender up again, which somehow got lost
Lia Rikugun: :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: yeah, i still cover ur old spot :)
Lia Rikugun: ahh ok, not the calender is up to date :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey qt
Lia Rikugun: now
Zon Kwan: do u know if there is a discussion in Kira today ?
Lia Rikugun: there will be wok as i understand
Yakuzza Lethecus: it´ll be in an hour
Yakuzza Lethecus: at 2 pm, the wok meeting
Zon Kwan: can anyone participate ?
Yakuzza Lethecus: yeah, of course
Zon Kwan: do you have a LM anyone ?
Yakuzza Lethecus: http://ways-of-knowing.wik.is/
Zon Kwan: thx
Lia Rikugun: so what is the topic for today?
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey steve
Lia Rikugun: hi stevenaia
stevenaia Michinaga: waves

using mustard for enlightenment

Yakuzza Lethecus: well, any updates on ur mustard method of enhanced enlightenment ? :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: that could be a fun subject at first :P
Lia Rikugun: haha
Zon Kwan: wow
Qt Core: ?!
Lia Rikugun: i actually tried it out!
Qt Core: hi steve
Barcalona Rhapsody: interesting
Zon Kwan: impressive sight
Lia Rikugun: we thought of a recipe how to get enlightend during the stuttgart retreat
Lia Rikugun: it involved mustard and singing guantanamera
stevenaia Michinaga: recipe?
Barcalona Rhapsody: oh
Zon Kwan: i understand singing but how mustard ..?
Lia Rikugun: yes some recipe to follow where you know afterwards you will get enlightend
Qt Core: i see that working making new, very random, cobbections in our brain
Qt Core: bb=nn
Lia Rikugun: so let me see if i can get it back together:
Lia Rikugun: mix one cup of sugar with mustard
Lia Rikugun: hello avy
Dash Earthboy: hi everybody!
Barcalona Rhapsody: hi avy
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey avy and dash
Avy Runner: hi everyone :)
Lia Rikugun: the you out that mixture on your little toe
Lia Rikugun: when the full moon is
Qt Core: hi dash, avy
Lia Rikugun: you stand on your head and sing 3 times guanatanamera
stevenaia Michinaga: hi Dash
Qt Core: you don't eat it ?
Lia Rikugun: then the i will drop off and you will be enlightend
Zon Kwan: did it work ?
Barcalona Rhapsody: wow
Lia Rikugun: haha, no this was the secret
Barcalona Rhapsody: when u believe in it it will work
Lia Rikugun: guess
Lia Rikugun: :D
Barcalona Rhapsody: the power of suggestion
Zon Kwan: good, so im with enlightened beings...
Barcalona Rhapsody: i feel enlightened now
Zon Kwan: it might catch
--BELL--
Lia Rikugun: this reminds me of what pema always says: starting at the end, we are already enlghted and how does the world look like if you are enlightend
Lia Rikugun: oh hi dash i didnt see you
Dash Earthboy: heh heh
Lia Rikugun: dash i think i have met you before right?
Dash Earthboy: maybe
Qt Core: something like the opposite of the devil's advocate ?
Lia Rikugun: i am very bad with na,mes, sorry!
Dash Earthboy: no prob :)
Qt Core: and not limited on one topic but "all seeing" ?

expectations of enlightenment

Yakuzza Lethecus: i wonder what the implicit expectations of enlightenment are, i really liked storms presentation at the last art of being presentation about ,,before enlightenment, chopping wood and carrying water"
Yakuzza Lethecus: ,,after enlightenment, chopping wood and carrying water"
Lia Rikugun: yeah probably we expect something completely different what it really is
Zon Kwan: is there such thing ?
stevenaia Michinaga: if we all ahve that capacity, then it is within us (the choping and carrying)
stevenaia Michinaga: jsut a matter of time
Lia Rikugun: hey by the way.. we are already enlightend ;)
Zon Kwan: ao lets juts have fun
Yakuzza Lethecus: well
Zon Kwan: no more striving
Yakuzza Lethecus: onigokko
Barcalona Rhapsody: taking everything light
Avy Runner: the chopping and carrying are already there, but they won't leave, I guess is meant here
Yakuzza Lethecus: stop
Zon Kwan: Chocolate Disco ♪
stevenaia Michinaga: wear this
Dash Earthboy: makes me wonder if the words I hear/read you say, is it more important to you that I understand how you see things OR why you see them that way?
Avy Runner: theanks steven

ONIGOKKO!!

stevenaia Michinaga: onigokko
Lia Rikugun: yeah!
stevenaia Michinaga: stop
Lia Rikugun: but boxy looks weird
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: boxy good legs :)
Avy Runner: that looked really weird
Yakuzza Lethecus: onigokko
stevenaia Michinaga: I knew that wasn;t Alfred in there
Lia Rikugun: stop
Avy Runner: omg, I have a pink tail !!!
Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
Zon Kwan: it means u r enligtned
Zon Kwan: its a sign
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, the tail is yours to keep
Lia Rikugun: yeah!! who else has a tail?
Avy Runner: hehehe
Barcalona Rhapsody: wonderful
Barcalona Rhapsody: its like friday
Barcalona Rhapsody: the weekend feeling
Lia Rikugun: one more day
Yakuzza Lethecus: well, not that many hours to go till then :)
Lia Rikugun: thats true, 1,5 for me
Yakuzza Lethecus: vacationday ?
Zon Kwan: there is now time if ur enlightened
Zon Kwan: no
Barcalona Rhapsody: sure
Zon Kwan: its always weekend
Barcalona Rhapsody: enlightment is timeless
Yakuzza Lethecus: well, correct i always stepp out of timeless time

who can see the enlightenment in you? yourself, others, both?

stevenaia Michinaga: is enlightenment something you are and know it, or don;t know it, or something others see in you (or both)
Barcalona Rhapsody: well i go again time to sleep
Dash Earthboy: where does my time go when it runs out?
Lia Rikugun: there is no I or you
Yakuzza Lethecus: nice to have you back here barce
Barcalona Rhapsody: loks like timeless night
Yakuzza Lethecus: sleep well
Barcalona Rhapsody: bye all
Qt Core: 'night Barcellona
Lia Rikugun: byebye
Zon Kwan: who others ?
Dash Earthboy: bye Barc
Avy Runner: bye Barc
Dash Earthboy: makes me wonder if the words I hear/read you say, is it more important to you that I understand how you see things OR why you see them that way?
Zon Kwan: perhaps what u see
Avy Runner: I think you will know when you are enlightened
Lia Rikugun: just throwing in some ideas
Zon Kwan: how and why are mind things
Lia Rikugun: no idea if anything is true :)
Avy Runner: but I also think there are people around who think they are enlightened :)
stevenaia Michinaga: do you walk around saying, hey, I;m enlightened
Avy Runner: probably not
stevenaia Michinaga: nods
Lia Rikugun: sure and everybody laughs ;)
Dash Earthboy: then again enlightened may be a misnomer
stevenaia Michinaga: I think it;s more the effect you have on others
--BELL--

measuring enlightenment on a scale of 0 to 1 :)

Lia Rikugun: i think now how this term distiguished enlightened and not enlightened
Lia Rikugun: and that cannot be it
Lia Rikugun: we must have it already
Lia Rikugun: we dont need to reach anything
Lia Rikugun: and after all its just a term
Lia Rikugun: otherwise we start building up a scale of who is more enlightedn than who etc
Lia Rikugun: HAHA
Avy Runner: "it's just a term", that sounds right
Lia Rikugun: *than whom, right?
Dash Earthboy: is any word not "just a term"?
Avy Runner: a lot of words dosen't tell us what it is really about
Avy Runner: *doesn't
stevenaia Michinaga: or means different things to diferent people
Avy Runner: yes
Avy Runner: I guess that is one of the reasons we have those meetings :)

enlightened and not enlightened? is there both?

Lia Rikugun: yes but with one term there is again the contrary, so enlightened and not enlightened
Lia Rikugun: and i dont think we have the not enlightened or at least this would not be logical
Dash Earthboy: everything contains its opposite
Lia Rikugun: but we always say Being has no opposite
Lia Rikugun: what is the opposite of Being?
Dash Earthboy: not being
Avy Runner: why shouldn't we have the not enlightenment
Zon Kwan: we have darkness
Zon Kwan: and light
Lia Rikugun: who would be not enlightened? you, me?
Zon Kwan: night and day
Zon Kwan: being non being
Lia Rikugun: i thought Being means it contains everything there is
Avy Runner: To me enlightnement is understanding something I surely don't :)
Lia Rikugun: a complete fullness
Zon Kwan: deppends on definitions
Avy Runner: everything and nothing
Lia Rikugun: and somehow I see parallels to this term enlightenment
Zon Kwan: words have the meaning we give it to them
stevenaia Michinaga: parallels of what?
Lia Rikugun: so this is i guesss what i want to say
Avy Runner: if there is everything, then it is nothing
Lia Rikugun: so is there an opposite to Being?
Zon Kwan: depends what is being
Dash Earthboy: not Being
Avy Runner: I think the term is introduced to be everything and nothing, beyond dualism
Lia Rikugun: what is not Being?
Dash Earthboy: the opposite of Being
Lia Rikugun: hm
Zon Kwan: not being a form
Avy Runner: whats a form, is justice a form?
Zon Kwan: yes its an idea
Lia Rikugun: i think we talk about different things :)
Zon Kwan: of course
Lia Rikugun: being as a verb
Lia Rikugun: or maybe I dont really understand
Lia Rikugun: and Being as everything and nothing
Avy Runner: being as verb is to me something different then everything and nothing
Lia Rikugun: anything you can think of and beyond anything you cannot think of
Lia Rikugun: yes
Avy Runner: hmmmm, we should ask the ones that came up with the word
Dash Earthboy: where does my time go when it runs out?
Zon Kwan: but what is stillness then
Zon Kwan: a verb ?
Avy Runner: yes, a process, not something that is there in itself
stevenaia Michinaga: non-verb
Lia Rikugun: hi mick
Mickorod Renard: Hi Lia
Dash Earthboy: hi mick!
Zon Kwan: tao that can be talked abou is not the tao
Mickorod Renard: Hi Guys
Avy Runner: pndering, maybe it is the same, need to think it over, interesting question though
Lia Rikugun: we are talking about being as verb and the difference to the term Being
Mickorod Renard: ok,,ty
Zon Kwan: mick hi

confusion

Lia Rikugun: i confused myself
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey mick
Mickorod Renard: hi:)
Lia Rikugun: hehe
Avy Runner: hi Mick :)
Mickorod Renard: :))
Zon Kwan: let us all be concused
Zon Kwan: confused
Lia Rikugun: actually we came to Being from enlightenment
Avy Runner: I think being confused is a good thing :)
Zon Kwan: yes
Dash Earthboy: i don't know how to be confused
Lia Rikugun: and I thought this temr enlightenment could also be understood beyond any dualism
Lia Rikugun: turn in cirlces for 10 minutes and you will be confused :)
Avy Runner: enlightenment in itself, yes maybe
Lia Rikugun: i do this sometimes
Dash Earthboy: sounds like a song
Avy Runner: a probably even
Avy Runner: a = or
--BELL--

enlightenment beyond dualism?

Lia Rikugun: but if enlightenment is beyond dualism
Zon Kwan: words have the meaning we give them, what is contains all our words ad is bigger than words
Lia Rikugun: then there cant be not-enligtenment
Avy Runner: why not?
Lia Rikugun: if our hypothesis is enlightenment is beyond dualism
Dash Earthboy: anybody else here in Mensa?
Zon Kwan: yes..it we agree the use of the word that way
Avy Runner: that means that if you're not enlightened you are still living in a dualistic world
Zon Kwan: but the dualistic world is
Mickorod Renard: are we not living in a dualistic world?
Lia Rikugun: puh very confused
Zon Kwan: by that definition
Zon Kwan: so there is dulastic world = non elnlightned world ?
Avy Runner: maybe Mick, don't know, but enlightened people are saying (I think) we are not
Dash Earthboy: in what way is a dualistic world not enlightened?
Avy Runner: we only perceive it that way
Mickorod Renard: I dont think I know an enlightened person
Lia Rikugun: haha me neither
Lia Rikugun: or lots of them
Lia Rikugun: everybody
Avy Runner: you don't know, ther emight be one around :)
Avy Runner: *their might
Zon Kwan: didnt we just agree we all are
Avy Runner: I don't think they reveal themselves in most cases
Yakuzza Lethecus: the budda nature is within us, still i am looking for it :P

recognising if we are enlightened..

Mickorod Renard: maybe we are enlightened to some degree?
Avy Runner: I didn't Zon, sorry
Lia Rikugun: but how would you know
Dash Earthboy: gee and I thouht Mensa was a club for the enlightened
Lia Rikugun: maybe you are enlightend and you dont know it
Avy Runner: if your in a tradition you probably learn to recognize it
Avy Runner: if you're not, I don't know
Zon Kwan: i odnt want to be enlightened i want to have fun
Lia Rikugun: :)
Avy Runner: so enlightened beings don't have fun??
Lia Rikugun: what should we play?
Mickorod Renard: again, that brings us to question our definition of enlightened
Dash Earthboy: i find enlightenement very much fun!
Zon Kwan: i dont know but im after fun
Yakuzza Lethecus: well, fun is a slippery slope
Yakuzza Lethecus: maybe a calm and aware moment can be fun too ?
Zon Kwan: yes
Avy Runner: right
Zon Kwan: there is time for everything
Mickorod Renard: I think I enjoy travelling a path towards an enlightenment that fits my definition,,whatever that is
Dash Earthboy: which reminds me, where does my time go when it runs out?
Mickorod Renard: I will have to let you know what it is when i recognise it
Zon Kwan: to experience joy
Zon Kwan: is enlightenment to me
Avy Runner: don't know Dash
Qt Core: have to go, bye all
Mickorod Renard: by QT
Zon Kwan: bye qt
Avy Runner: bye QT :)
Lia Rikugun: byebye
Dash Earthboy: bye Qt
Mickorod Renard: me too,,bye everyone,,and happy thanksgiving to ypou who celebrate it
Yakuzza Lethecus: night qt
Lia Rikugun: bye mick happy thanksgiving
Avy Runner: bye Mick :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye mick
Zon Kwan: bye all
Avy Runner: bye Zon :)
Dash Earthboy: i believe it's time for me to fly...reo speedwagon
Yakuzza Lethecus: and zon
Avy Runner: bye Dash :)
Lia Rikugun: byebye zon and dash
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye everyone who´s leaving :)
Lia Rikugun: i like your avatar
Lia Rikugun: avy
Lia Rikugun: :) cute
Avy Runner: I really need to laugh if I'm walking like this :)
Avy Runner: thanks Lia :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: onigokko
Yakuzza Lethecus: stop
stevenaia Michinaga: hmm that woke me up
Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
Lia Rikugun: ZZZZZZzzzzzzzz
Avy Runner: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: nap time for me,
Yakuzza Lethecus: well, i move over to wok
Avy Runner: me too
Avy Runner: is that at Kira cafe?
Lia Rikugun: byebye thn i will go to sleep :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: schlaf gut lia
Yakuzza Lethecus: the wok session
Lia Rikugun: nice to see you all
Avy Runner: sleep well Lia :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: night avy and bye steve
Avy Runner: bye Steve
Avy Runner: you look beautiful