2011.02.05 13:00 - Guilt trips

The Guardian for this meeting was Aphrodite Macbain. The comments are by Aphrodite Macbain.

 Holding up the universe

Aphrodite Macbain: Hello Samuo!
oO0Oo Resident smiles at Aphrodite, and sends a hug through the ether
Aphrodite Macbain hugs back
oO0Oo Resident: for a few moments... the universe feels held ....lol
Aphrodite Macbain: By virtual arms
Aphrodite Macbain: four of them
oO0Oo Resident: what more is there really?
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Aphrodite and Samuo :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Only more arms...
oO0Oo Resident: Hi SSL :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Hello SSL
SophiaSharon Larnia: nice balloon Aph! :) (Aph holds a balloon promoting the Art as Being opening on Sunday at noon) 
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes- flagrant promotion
SophiaSharon Larnia: heheh
oO0Oo Resident: want to join arms with us?
Aphrodite Macbain: we're holding up the universe
oO0Oo Resident zooms in
SophiaSharon Larnia: join arms to hold up the universe???
SophiaSharon Larnia: sure! :D I think that's what we're doing already isnt it?
Aphrodite Macbain: Precisely
SophiaSharon Larnia: laughs
Aphrodite Macbain: Helping out Atlas and the rest of the gods
SophiaSharon Larnia: they must be getting tired by now
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes, time for us to help out.
oO0Oo Resident: when being recognizes play as web of hug, all is held in relaxation
Aphrodite Macbain smiles
SophiaSharon Larnia: :D
 

Art as Being project

Aphrodite Macbain: Samuo - are you going to participate in the upcoming Art as Being project?
oO0Oo Resident: Oh Aph, I'd like to, but feel a bit intimidated and not sure quite how to do it
SophiaSharon Larnia: we'll have more exhibits, I'm sure :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes, and everyone is very helpful. I couldn' t have done it w/o the help of Bruce and Storm and Bleu and Sophia
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Bruce :)
oO0Oo Resident: hugs Bruce
Aphrodite Macbain: Speaking of the devil...
Bruce Mowbray: Her he is!
Aphrodite Macbain: Hello Bruce.
Bruce: *he

Aphrodite Macbain: or maybe her..
oO0Oo Resident: lol
oO0Oo Resident: so appropriate to SL somehow
SophiaSharon Larnia: (thinking- ty for the balloon, i thought the thingy was 1 pm slt ooops!) i would've been late!
Aphrodite Macbain: It preceeds the pavilion meeting
Aphrodite Macbain: The balloon is made by Bleu - she gave me one so I can advertise it
SophiaSharon Larnia: heheh
oO0Oo Resident: I write something in a note card, and then the pictures are made how?
SophiaSharon Larnia:  (Samuo) there's a button to take a snapshot in the sl window, free to take to your computer, $10L to upload to sl
oO0Oo Resident: ty SSL
oO0Oo Resident: "her he is"!
Aphrodite Macbain: :-) samuo!
Aphrodite Macbain: Bruce- were you adversely affected by the storm?
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmmmm. . . . not that I know of. . .
Aphrodite Macbain: wondered whether it knocked out electricity
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, it knocked out elec for 84, 000 in Ohio -- but not for me.
Aphrodite Macbain: Lucky you!
 

SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Barcelona :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Lugh - you look magnificent! (Lugh is dressed in gold and white and looks like the sun god)
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Lugh :)
Lugh Fehr: hellow :)
Bruce Mowbray: Lugh - - - hello!
Barcalona Rhapsody: hi all
Lugh Fehr: het bar (=Hi Bruce? A.M.)
Aphrodite Macbain: Hello Barcalona GTSY
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Barca!
oO0Oo Resident: Hi lugh Hi Barcalona
 

Berliner philharmonic

Barcalona Rhapsody: i have watched berliner philharmoniker orchestra just last 2 hours
Barcalona Rhapsody: on the internet
SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
Barcalona Rhapsody: wonderful
Aphrodite Macbain: lovely. what were they playing?
Bruce Mowbray: wow -- great, Barca.
Barcalona Rhapsody: www.digital-concert-hal.com
Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks!
Barcalona Rhapsody: just heavenly
SophiaSharon Larnia: the link didn't open for me :(

Bruce Mowbray: hal shold be hall.
Aphrodite Macbain: Where does it say hal?
Bruce Mowbray: the last word in the URL, Aph.
Barcalona Rhapsody: sorry its www.digitalconcerthall.com
Barcalona Rhapsody: without the stripes
SophiaSharon Larnia: :) thank you!
Bruce Mowbray tries the revised URL. . .
Barcalona Rhapsody: also in japanese
Lugh Fehr: tnx ill tell my dad about it. he's a big fan of classical
Barcalona Rhapsody: sure
Barcalona Rhapsody: its classic concerts
Bruce Mowbray: Mahler's 3rd Symphony . . . Wonderful.
Barcalona Rhapsody: yes wonderfull
Barcalona Rhapsody: also on youtube
 

SL Retreat
Aphrodite Macbain: Is anyone here going to the SL retreat next week?
SophiaSharon Larnia: I am :) I hope I can make in fri evening
Bruce Mowbray: I'm going, Aph.
Lugh Fehr: no thank you

SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Qt :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Ave Qt!
Barcalona Rhapsody: hi Qt ave Ceasar
Lugh Fehr: hey qt
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, QT.
 

Of guilt and its purpose

Aphrodite Macbain: Does anyone want to discuss anything in particular? If not, I have a suggestion.
SophiaSharon Larnia: listens :))
Bruce Mowbray listens for Aph's suggestion.
Lugh Fehr listens to aph
Barcalona Rhapsody: i listen to aph too
Aphrodite Macbain: Guilt
Aphrodite Macbain: Is guilt useful?
SophiaSharon Larnia: thinks thoughtfully
SophiaSharon Larnia: (lol)
Barcalona Rhapsody: interesting
Barcalona Rhapsody: part of ethical thinking
Bruce Mowbray: Guilt. . . .
Aphrodite Macbain: I have been feeling guilty about not being able to truly help a friend but I don't know what to do with that feeling
Lugh Fehr: is a car crash useful .. well no but it pops out every now and agin
Barcalona Rhapsody: guilt is subjective
Aphrodite Macbain: Perhaps I should rephrase my question - is it useful to pay attention to guilt?
SophiaSharon Larnia: perhaps, if you had actually done something that could've been dealt with another way. Probably not, if it was something someone placed onto you.
SophiaSharon Larnia: imho
Aphrodite Macbain: Guilt can be self-generated, it is not always imposed

SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
Barcalona Rhapsody: yes or if you place it on yourself you can change your thoughts
SophiaSharon Larnia: and sometimes guilt is from not knowing the future
SophiaSharon Larnia: in which we had done nothing 'wrong', but wish we had known what was going to happen later
Aphrodite Macbain: Guilt can spur us to action...
Aphrodite Macbain: or make us simply feel horrid if we can't act
Bruce Mowbray: It can keep us from repeating "bad" actions.
Barcalona Rhapsody: but it can also make us inactive
Aphrodite Macbain: how Barc?
Barcalona Rhapsody: a sort of learning effect
Barcalona Rhapsody: when u are lame of fear
Barcalona Rhapsody: or inactive
Barcalona Rhapsody: i dont know the right word
Barcalona Rhapsody: still stiff or inactive
Aphrodite Macbain: traumatized? frozen?
Barcalona Rhapsody: yes frozen
Bruce Mowbray: numb?
Barcalona Rhapsody: maybe numb
Barcalona Rhapsody: comfortably numb
Aphrodite Macbain: guilt can make us numb?
Barcalona Rhapsody: maybe
Lugh Fehr: the action part is useful but it doesn't need guilt to happen. guilt if anything takes away your power of beliving in your self positively
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
SophiaSharon Larnia: a very compassionate person would feel guilt about not being able to help someone
Aphrodite Macbain: Compassion engenders guilt Sophia?
SophiaSharon Larnia: no, sorry, i meant a compassionate person could find themselves in that loop
Bruce Mowbray: I think that one of the major "reasons" for guilt is to numb us emotionally.
Aphrodite Macbain: I personally find guilt does the opposite Bruce; it sharpens me
Lugh Fehr: its like saying "you're a looser, you're a looser, you're a looser" and now go out there and do the best you can :P
Lugh Fehr: Are guilt and shame the same?
oO0Oo Resident: distinguishing between shame/guilt/regret/powerlessness
Bruce Mowbray: Guilt feels to me like a combination of fear and grief.
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes theres a grief component to it
SophiaSharon Larnia: in some cases, i think it may be more grief than guilt
Aphrodite Macbain: how so sophia?
 

Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Chi.
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes Samuo
Aphrodite Macbain: Hello Chi
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Chi :)
Barcalona Rhapsody: hi chi
Lugh Fehr: heyy chi
Aphrodite Macbain: Darren- GTSY
Chi Aho whispers a gentle hello to all
Qt Core: hi Chi
Lugh Fehr: quite so bruce
Bruce Mowbray: a gentle hello to you too, Chi.
Barcalona Rhapsody: dont feel guilty for being late
Darren Islar: hi everyone :)
Barcalona Rhapsody: hi leaping panther
Lugh Fehr: hey darre
Qt Core: hi Darren
Barcalona Rhapsody: hi dar
Chi Aho: hi darren
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi leaping panther, Calvino
Darren Islar: hi Cal :)
oO0Oo Resident: Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Cal.
Chi Aho: Hello, Calvino
 

Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Darren - - - We're talking about guilt. . .
Bruce Mowbray: especially the guilt of not being able to help someone close to us.
Darren Islar: thanks
oO0Oo Resident: one can feel a lack in oneself, to meet what one feels needs to be met, but... sometimes things cannot be 'solved' by us
Aphrodite Macbain: yes, that's what I'm feeling. And also the guilt of being afraid to really help
Barcalona Rhapsody: hi cal
Calvino Rabeni: Good day (or evening :) )
SophiaSharon Larnia: well, maybe thefeeling is grief from powerlessness, interpreted by the heart as guilt
Aphrodite Macbain: Cal - we're talking about guilt and its uses
Calvino Rabeni: thanks Aph
Barcalona Rhapsody: and its misuses
Aphrodite Macbain: yes barc!
oO0Oo Resident: so then to love oneself...even within all that
Aphrodite Macbain: yes- good antidote. And to be compassionate to yourself
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes :D so very hard
Lugh Fehr: is guilt not expecting your  limitations in a dream of omnipotence
oO0Oo Resident smiles and continues to hug universe
Barcalona Rhapsody: sure thats the art of keeping the middle
Aphrodite Macbain: Aph joins arms
SophiaSharon Larnia continues to hold up her arms lol
Bruce Mowbray continues to accept hugs from universe.
--BELL--
Aphrodite Macbain: I have to leave you all as I have another appointment. I will still post the chat.
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye
Barcalona Rhapsody: ok dont feel guilty
SophiaSharon Larnia: aww Aph, nice to see you :)
Qt Core: bye aphro
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye
Barcalona Rhapsody: bye aph
Lugh Fehr: often guilt has two sides to it and the alternaitive is anger
Bruce Mowbray: @ Lugh -- a great phrase to remember: Not respecting your limitations in a dream of omnipotence.
SophiaSharon Larnia: it's a stage towards acceptance of a situation
Lugh Fehr: is guilt anger at your self?
Calvino Rabeni: No I wouldn't say that; it doesn't feel the same
Darren Islar: I think it's a survival mechanism
Lugh Fehr: yes its true it dosn't feel the same
SophiaSharon Larnia: nods thoughtfully
Calvino Rabeni: anger expands outward and confronts ... guilt contracts and slinks away
Bruce Mowbray: guilt and shame are cousins, Cal?
Calvino Rabeni: I think guilt and shame have some different attributions Bruce .. and some similarities
Darren Islar: aggression - depression
Lugh Fehr: but still anger is agressive and to bypass the natural urge to protect your self is hard so maybe it twists in the feeling of guilt
Lugh Fehr: but i have hurt my self in cases of extreme guilt and a thought of self hate. he hee
 

SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Aubergine :)
Darren Islar: hey Aubergine, thats a long time ago :))
Aubergine Mint: hiya
 

Barcalona Rhapsody: but guilt may always give negative energy
Calvino Rabeni: guilt can be atoned for through action (how it feels I suppose) . and is more contextual - something can be made amends for
Calvino Rabeni: shame feels like - about how one IS and can't be as easily resolved
Lugh Fehr nods at calvino
SophiaSharon Larnia: (sorry still using radar)
Calvino Rabeni: Guilty because I DID something unacceptable .. shameful because I AM something unacceptable
Barcalona Rhapsody: ok that may be the difference
Lugh Fehr: so is shame a more aggravated form of guilt?
Calvino Rabeni: shame has a deeper sense of identification
Barcalona Rhapsody: even as fame ?
Qt Core: shame when only you is involved guilt when others were impacted ?
Calvino Rabeni: harder to "drop" or to make amends
oO0Oo Resident: if there is a continuum, I think 'regret' is most helpful, and even then, perhaps not entirely what Aph was experiencing
Calvino Rabeni: Others are involved in shame ..
oO0Oo Resident: yes Cal
Barcalona Rhapsody: ok
oO0Oo Resident: certainly judgements are involved
SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
Lugh Fehr: and after all, is it usefull?
Barcalona Rhapsody: nods
oO0Oo Resident: more or less heavy handed
Barcalona Rhapsody: maybe for education of children
Lugh Fehr: and usefull for what anyway?
Barcalona Rhapsody: a bit of guilt and shame can be helpfull
oO0Oo Resident: seeing cause and effect, one can learn to refine, without guilt or shame
Chi Aho: useful as social control mechanism
Barcalona Rhapsody: oh, i dont like that
Barcalona Rhapsody: but it is true
 

SophiaSharon Larnia: rl interuption, have to go. Have fun everyone!!!
oO0Oo Resident: SSL :)
Lugh Fehr: byes sophia
Chi Aho: Western societies turn on guilt; in the east shame is used to control people
Qt Core: bye ssl
Barcalona Rhapsody: bye ssl
 

Chi Aho: I am looking at it from a sociological perspective
Calvino Rabeni: It's useful to groups for cementing responsibility and membership to a group .. remember it evolved in deep history and biology, before humans attempted moral reasoning with their intellectual capabilities
Barcalona Rhapsody: but TAO says there is no guilt
Chi Aho: ok
Barcalona Rhapsody: and u dont have to (feel) shame
Chi Aho agrees
Calvino Rabeni: In a way, Chi's statement makes me reflect on the different relationship East and West has in relationship to Being and Doing
Qt Core: so taoist feel guilty if they feel ashamed ? ;-)
Calvino Rabeni: where shame is about Being, and guilt about Doing
Barcalona Rhapsody: maybe only religions have guilt
Lugh Fehr: i think shame and guilt are total car crashes of the human system, its only possible because all the components are there,  like a car crash but still is not a desirable thing at all
Barcalona Rhapsody: and good living to set you free from guilt
 

Aubergine Mint: sorry, need to go, bye
Lugh Fehr: bye mint
Barcalona Rhapsody: bye gin
 

Chi Aho: Qt, I think feeling ashamed or not, all depends on the person; some people can do atrocious things and not feel the slightest shame or guilt
Qt Core: sure, chi
Calvino Rabeni: (that is to take a bit farther the idea that shame is about what one IS and guilt about what one DOES) .. the interesting thing in that is ... maybe if the West had more shame, it would have more "Being" ... they correlate
Barcalona Rhapsody: its also a matter of experience
Calvino Rabeni: Then that would be a "useful" aspect of shame .. if it causes one to reflect more on what one "IS", one's being, and seek for transformation there
Darren Islar: h....... not sure Cal.....
Lugh Fehr: in one of the sutras, it says "life is easy for a shamless one in the past."  i interpreted that as a bad thing being shamless but its a formula: no shame = easy life
oO0Oo Resident: What happens in us when a loved one is dying, and we have been staying up attending them, and we ourselves are tired, and perhaps hungry, with our own myriad needs, and we are in that energy, of wanting to be of help and to our loved one, and their family, but feel we cannot be/do enough? So, then guilt takes the form of those thoughts: "I am not able to do enough" "I cannot fix this"
Darren Islar: to me guilt and shame are very close
oO0Oo Resident: the pain added to pain
Calvino Rabeni: I see that, samuo (o00o)
Darren Islar: if guilt is not seen, it tends to become shame
Calvino Rabeni: The "seeing" may turn it more into a Doing, Darren
Darren Islar: a personalized idea of guilt
oO0Oo Resident: shame is a way of leveraging that dynamic
Barcalona Rhapsody: so guilt and shame can be reduced by self respect
Calvino Rabeni: thus shifting it from Shame / to guilt
Darren Islar: yes, but when it is not seen
Calvino Rabeni: awareness can break up identification and make its pieces actionable
Barcalona Rhapsody: nicely said cal
oO0Oo Resident: awareness, or willingness to go inner, rather than outer
Darren Islar: children have a way of surviving by using guilt, since that is the only thing they can do something about
Darren Islar: that can turn easily turn into shame at a very young age
Lugh Fehr: do animals other that humans feel guilt and shame?
Calvino Rabeni: Animals have behaviors that are analogous to guilt and shame and empathy
Chi Aho: I doubt it Lugh, unless they have some kind of moral code; when we violate that we really violate ourselves, damage our own character, the moral dimension of personality
oO0Oo Resident: contextual
oO0Oo Resident: hand in hand, from inspiration to action, then refining with knowledge that we are not perfect beings in a perfectable world
Calvino Rabeni: Myths capture the idea that awareness has a whole arc, a journey that goes inner and then outer (or the other way around)
Darren Islar: hmmmmmm, shame creates guilt, but maybe that guilt is something you can work with
Calvino Rabeni: what the feel of it is a different way of feeling
Darren Islar: so you can get closer to 'shame'
Lugh Fehr: ohh no! brb hopfully in 5 mins
Calvino Rabeni: but the structures can be located by scientific experiments with behavior and biology
Darren Islar: ?
Calvino Rabeni: There's a fascinating and in-depth lecture series on the neuro biology of behavior in humans and animals .. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPYma...DDC3D&index=17
oO0Oo Resident smiles at Cal ty
oO0Oo Resident: voracious learning comes to mind
Calvino Rabeni: That sounds true and existential, sam (oO0Oo)
Calvino Rabeni: Voracious learning ... smiles .. yes the lecture is for students at stanford university .. an environment of ferocious learning
Chi Aho recalls some studies indicating that chimps have a sense of fairness
oO0Oo Resident: cool
Calvino Rabeni: That video lecture is hard core, but full of many such studies
Calvino Rabeni: even rats have something like compassion and justice ... in much less complex ways than humans
Chi Aho: Recall the ape who saved a small child that had fallen into the gorilla cage?
Chi Aho: (it) protected the child from others and left it safely for humans to pick up
Korel Laloix: If only humans protected human children.......
Calvino Rabeni: There are many direct experiences of animal social and moral intelligence ..
Calvino Rabeni: and anecdotes
Lugh Fehr: yeey i am back! and i also got chineese food
Korel Laloix: What sort?
Calvino Rabeni: then science needs to look for objective measurable repeatable patterns and good structures of interpretation, to make the ideas acceptable in that way
Calvino Rabeni: it makes an impersonal story out of something everyday and personal
 

Darren Islar: I need to go, see you :)
Korel Laloix: ciao bello
Qt Core: bye darren
 

oO0Oo Resident: So, say I'm in this situation, where my friend is dying, in a drawn out way, and I have come to visit and want to be supportive to my friend, and the beleagured family, and I feel I am not able to meet all my needs, nor those of the people around me. Then I also feel something like guilt about not helping enough. Please... what is your advice to me?
Korel Laloix: You can not be all things to all people.
oO0Oo Resident listens
Korel Laloix: Just being there and being you is what people appreciate.
Calvino Rabeni: self forgiveness .. doing symbolic acts ... resolving to take that feeling and put it into something else in the world
Lugh Fehr: btw i thought of something: dont really have to do whare you guilty for not being taller?
Lugh Fehr: if not why be guilty about you physical character

Chi Aho: Advice would be to accept the fact that it is you who is responsible for having this negative feeling, not the circumstances which you may be blaming
Chi Aho: are*
Calvino Rabeni: that makes me nervous
oO0Oo Resident: QT? Bruce?
Lugh Fehr: i dont think you should forgive yourself...you've done nothing wrong
Calvino Rabeni: yes lugh, but ... if one thinks one has done something wrong, one has an opinion to be either changed or forgiven on its own terms
Korel Laloix: There is nothing wrong with negative felings though.. they have their place in a healthy mind.
Korel Laloix: Just in moderation.
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Zon.
Zon Kwan: hey all
oO0Oo Resident: Hi Zon :0
Lugh Fehr: hey zon
oO0Oo Resident: :) *
Calvino Rabeni: and maybe it can't be "defined" away
Calvino Rabeni: maybe it can :)
Calvino Rabeni: it's worth a try
Lugh Fehr: yes forgiveness can be helpful
Qt Core: got distracted, need to go. Bye all
Chi Aho: c u qt
oO0Oo Resident: Qt :)
Lugh Fehr: bye qt
Korel Laloix: Forgivenes is highly underrated.
Korel Laloix: Just difficult to do sometimes.
Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps because it cuts both ways?
Korel Laloix: And it is directly agains our animal nature.
Calvino Rabeni: If I wanted to forgive someone for doing violence to me .. I'd need to also forgive myself for being weak?
Bruce Mowbray: self-humbling, yes.
Lugh Fehr: very true cal
Korel Laloix: No...I disagree.
Lugh Fehr: somtimes its harder to forgive yourself for being weak
Bruce Mowbray: forgive myself for being vulnerable?
oO0Oo Resident: well... there's a piece in here about really feeling the depth of affectedness, or attachment, or vulnerability
Korel Laloix: When you are a victim. and you are helpless.. it is purely their fault.
Bruce Mowbray: say more, Korel.
Korel Laloix: I grew up in a very abusive home.
Korel Laloix: Not my fault.
Korel Laloix: I eventually fixed the problem.. but it took years.
Calvino Rabeni: There's something good about a reality check ... the sorting out process of ascribing fault ..
oO0Oo Resident listens
Bruce Mowbray likes "reality check."
Korel Laloix: I think as you say.. ascribing fault is important.
Korel Laloix: But you can't let it consume you.
Calvino Rabeni: true
Korel Laloix: The blame game can consume you.
Korel Laloix: Not sure if I used the word consume correctly, though.
Lugh Fehr: but is it their fault for being mean? doesn't that corrode their live ?
Calvino Rabeni: something to go through and move on?
Calvino Rabeni: where does it come to rest, if anywhere?
Lugh Fehr: wow alph really set the ball rolling today :)
oO0Oo Resident: reality check... popping out of thoughts/storyline, and into the present moment
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Bruce Mowbray: She'll be editing all of this later.

(and she has really enjoyed and valued all these thoughtful comments. Thank you!  Aph)
 

oO0Oo Resident: something about guilt and shame
oO0Oo Resident: really carries the storyline in a heavy way
Bruce Mowbray: reality check is also about checking out others' perceptions of the situation.
oO0Oo Resident: forgiveness lets go
Chi Aho: Things come to rest with me when I accept that I am totally responsible for the choices that I make and not at all responsible for the bad behavior of others which may have left me psychologically scarred.
--BELL--
Lugh Fehr: i find rest in the opposite of what i need rest from
Lugh Fehr: and i need rest from guilt in a faster time than i need rest from self love and it seems that im spending more time loving my self then hating me, altho today hate was in the majority but not the really bad kind, just a light stink in the air
oO0Oo Resident: an appreciable nuance Lugh
Lugh Fehr: sorry o00o. use simpler words for simple guy he hee
Bruce Mowbray: Are we reponsible for the choices that we have been conditioned to make?
Korel Laloix: Mostly.
Bruce Mowbray: conditioned through torture/abuse/shame?
Chi Aho: unlearning is just as possible as learning
oO0Oo Resident: good point Chi
Lugh Fehr: i think yes and no. in one level its yes and in an other its no. we're like onions we have layers
Zon Kwan: we're responsible but not guilty
Bruce Mowbray: Thanks for sharing that distinction, Lugh -- and also your story about today.
oO0Oo Resident: what bruce said lol
oO0Oo Resident: awareness can be the forgiveness, that melts the solidness of guilt or shame
Lugh Fehr: hehee :)
Calvino Rabeni returns from dealing with "cat problem"
Bruce Mowbray: "that little stink in the air" -- self-hate. wonderful.
oO0Oo Resident: yes
oO0Oo Resident: good descriptions
Bruce Mowbray needs to move on. . . . THANK YOU, everyone, for this excellent conversation.
Korel Laloix: Ciao bello
Lugh Fehr: bye bruce tnx for conversations
Chi Aho: see you, Bruce
Zon Kwan: waves
oO0Oo Resident: Ciao Bruce :)
oO0Oo Resident: me too... ty all so very much
Lugh Fehr: tnx ooo byebye
Chi Aho: I too must go
oO0Oo Resident notes Cal's intentional seating change, and smiles
Calvino Rabeni: Farewell everyone
Lugh Fehr: i go too, spend sometime with family. tnx every body. adios
oO0Oo Resident: keep hugging the tapestry folks
Calvino Rabeni: who's leaving?
Calvino Rabeni: adios hasta luego lugh
Lugh Fehr: up up and away!
Korel Laloix: do na da go hv i
Korel Laloix: They don't love us anymore.
Calvino Rabeni: Such short memories of a good thing :)
Korel Laloix: brb
 

Calvino's quotes and comments

Calvino Rabeni: "# The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference. The opposite of beauty is not ugliness, it's indifference. The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference. And the opposite of life is not death, but indifference between life and death." - Elie Wiesel
Calvino Rabeni: For each true statement one can find an equally true one opposing it, an equally true one holding and maintaining its stability, and an equally true one pushing to undermine it.
Calvino Rabeni: The fact that there are brain "mechanism" involved in human moral behavior does not indicate that those can be reduced in complexity or regarded as unintelligent
Calvino Rabeni: There's a constant, in-the-moment, dynamic relationship between the amygdala in the brain, and the frontal cortex, each moderating the other, modulating it, the result being a more flexible and adaptive (i.e. intelligent) system ..
Calvino Rabeni: that's exquisitely sensitive to its human social context
Calvino Rabeni: and as the interactions between these different parts of the brain is discovered
Calvino Rabeni: the paradigm shifts
Calvino Rabeni: so that the cortex is seen more as an intrinsic part of the limbic system
Calvino Rabeni: rather than a seat of a separate "capacity" as Descartes and others decided mind and body, or intellect and emotions, were separate
 

Lugh Fehr: hey agin calvino
Lugh Fehr: their watching a chick flik; onlyso much i could take ;)
Calvino Rabeni returns from dealing with burnt out light bulbs