2011.02.08 13:00 - "Why?"

The Guardian for this meeting was Bruce Mowbray. The comments are by Bruce Mowbray.

Archmage Atlantis: Hello, Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Hey Arch.
Bruce Mowbray: Just been to a birthday party for Mickorod.
Archmage Atlantis: That explains the party hat
Bruce Mowbray: oh yes, the hat. I almost forgot.
Lugh Fehr: hellow
Lugh Fehr: :)
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Lugh!
Archmage Atlantis: Hello Lugh
Lugh Fehr: wow nice wings
Archmage Atlantis: My 2 favorite trees
Archmage Atlantis: They are the wings of a phoenix
Bruce Mowbray: Beautiful necklace thingie, too.

--BELL--
Archmage Atlantis: A gift from a seer Bruce
Lugh Fehr: today i had a philosophical discussion whit my mum brother and his wife that went terribly wrong! and it got me thinking what is the rule of a good philosophical discussion what's the formula.
Bruce Mowbray listens carefully. . .
Archmage Atlantis: That everyone wants to discuss philosophy, would be my guess........
Lugh Fehr: what i think is its more of a spirit than a law that needs to be clear and the spirit is similar to a boxing match as opposed to a street fight
Archmage Atlantis: That others wished to influence by emotion sounds like what happened
Lugh Fehr: it needs to be done in the spirit of enjoying and learning the other's state of mind , yes !!!! arch!!
Lugh Fehr: exactly!
Archmage Atlantis: Hello, O
Lugh Fehr: no emotion and no abstract thinking nothing is out of bounds, yet you reserve the right to tap out of a discussion
Lugh Fehr: it's still hazy in my mind
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Samuo.
Lugh Fehr: the exact formula but i think it something one does lines
Lugh Fehr: hey o and Samuo
oO0Oo Resident: Hi
Archmage Atlantis: Where are the tiny cushions Bruce?......Did Storm disallow them?
Bruce Mowbray removed the cushions. . . so that the seating here will be more flexible.
Bruce Mowbray: like this. . . .
Archmage Atlantis: hmmm
Archmage Atlantis: We just lost Lugh
Archmage Atlantis: That is Not Flexible
Bruce Mowbray: yes. . . I think she poofed. But now she's back.
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Brian.
Bruce Mowbray: Good to see you again.
Bruce Mowbray: wb, Lugh.
Brian Roop: hi guys
Lugh Fehr: hey Brian -  long time :)
Brian Roop: yep
Brian Roop: busy rl and had to rebuild my gallery and house too
Lugh Fehr: the pond is gone :)
Bruce Mowbray: global warming, Lugh.
Bruce Mowbray: evaporated.
Lugh Fehr: hehehe
Lugh Fehr: :P
Archmage Atlantis: Yep, the pond of all life, it is gone
Brian Roop: ok this is beyond me a bit
Bruce Mowbray listens for more from Brian.
Brian Roop: what's the pond we're speaking of?
Lugh Fehr: exactly
Lugh Fehr: ohh
Archmage Atlantis: You are here Brian.....so it is not beyond you....so it may frighten you
Lugh Fehr: now im wet!
Bruce Mowbray: Now you see it -- Now you don't.
Brian Roop: oh just rezzed in
Archmage Atlantis: ty, the full circle
Brian Roop: sheesh are we on aerosol lsd?
Archmage Atlantis: very Disney
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Lugh Fehr: :) check the pupils
Brian Roop: can't find them
Bruce Mowbray dies from laughing....
Lugh Fehr: :P
Lugh Fehr: hey Zon
Zon Kwan: hey guys
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Zon.
Brian Roop: hey Zon
--BELL--
Bruce Mowbray will now bring back the pool -- since others are arriving.
Bruce Mowbray: Thanks for observing the bell. . .
Brian Roop: gotta get out of there, will rust my braces
Brian Roop: oops, levitating, what brought that on?
Lugh Fehr: do you guys think that the mind is programmable making the character programmable or do you think more on the lines that there is a 'real you' character ?
Lugh Fehr: if any one fancies to answer :P
Archmage Atlantis: Lugh, may I say 'yes' to both?
oO0Oo Resident waves and smiles
Lugh Fehr: in what way ?
Bruce Mowbray: bye, Samuo.
Lugh Fehr listens to arch confused :P
Archmage Atlantis: confused, perhaps that is the only answer when one's self inquires
Bruce Mowbray wonders if there is no "real self," who will do the programming of mind?
Lugh Fehr: the program will :)
Brian Roop: the program? Sounds Orwellian to me
Archmage Atlantis: Some self wrote the program
Bruce Mowbray: So, is it 'programs all the way down,' or is there a "real" programmer somewhere?
Archmage Atlantis: Turtles, Bruce, all the way down......get the quote
Lugh Fehr: you know if two babies are switched how much of the character will still remain if they hadn't been
Lugh Fehr: ?
Bruce Mowbray: Lugh's question is an excellent one - - -
Bruce Mowbray: If one finds a clock, does that mean there is a clock-maker?
Bruce Mowbray: also, this raises the theme of "emergence...."
Bruce Mowbray: Do complex things emerge out of simple conditions?
Lugh Fehr: is something that grows a construct?
Brian Roop: Darwin thinks so
Archmage Atlantis: Darwin is dead
Bruce Mowbray: Surely you jest, Arch.
Brian Roop: but his thought lives on
Archmage Atlantis: Oh, really, Bruce?.......something of us lives after?
Brian Roop: at least in the minds of those who come after us
Lugh Fehr: and if a man can learn to be more compassionate and learn to be moor humorous and if a certain formula can be traced in all rapists and serial killers, Is there a distinct formula for every aspect of us ?
Zon Kwan: Darwin didn't explain the evolution
Brian Roop: but it's there
Zon Kwan: just the mechanism
Zon Kwan: not the 'why'
Brian Roop: no
Brian Roop: the 'why' was not his business
Brian Roop: unless he wanted to make it so
Archmage Atlantis: rapists and serial killers......I have wondered about that path
Brian Roop: but he just observed and described phenomena
Brian Roop: the 'why' questions are more risky
Bruce Mowbray: My best friend is a serial rapist -- now doing five consecutive life sentences....
Brian Roop: hmmm
Archmage Atlantis: My thought is we are able to see, to become a vision
Lugh Fehr: he didn't have a pleasant childhood, did he?
Brian Roop thinks about moving away from bruce
Bruce Mowbray ponders, "Why?"
Zon Kwan: but more interesting
Brian Roop: unmoderated passion
Bruce Mowbray: He was my inmate clerk at the prison when I taught there... and has been a wonderful correspondent for over 25 years.
Bruce Mowbray listens intently to Zon.
Bruce Mowbray also ponders Arch's  " we are able to see, to become a vision."
Brian Roop: do we become what we see?
Archmage Atlantis: Sometimes, yes, we do Brian
Brian Roop: and/or perceive with the other senses
Archmage Atlantis: Sometimes, we find another way to peace
--BELL--
Alfred Kelberry: hey guys
Lugh Fehr: and what about brain washing ? is that a clear sign of the programmability of a mind? and can it be used in a beneficial way?
Zon Kwan: if i see a clock i don't think its probable that blind forces of evolution have made it without any purpose...so the question 'why?' is relevant and interesting ... more interesting than 'how?' ... and Darwin didn't answer that
Lugh Fehr: hey alf
Bertram Jacobus: hey guys :-)
Bruce Mowbray: Hey - ya, Boxy.
Brian Roop: it wasn't Darwin's to answer
Zon Kwan: that's why he isn't interesting to me
Brian Roop: he described what he saw, and the logic of it
Archmage Atlantis: Welcome to the ...... Alfred
Brian Roop: the "why" is for others to answer
Zon Kwan: alf
Brian Roop: far more difficult
Bertram Jacobus: i think, the question "why" only leads to infinity finally ...
Brian Roop: and i think without definite conclusions to be reached
Zon Kwan: all is infinite
Brian Roop: but we can never escape the question
Brian Roop: that's what makes us human
Archmage Atlantis: I once said to a friend "what about infinite do you not accept"
Bertram Jacobus: so "why" never can give a final answer
Zon Kwan: no
Zon Kwan: it just makes things interesting
Bertram Jacobus: but that is not satisfying ! (?)
Zon Kwan: there is no final answer
Zon Kwan: its not meant to be¨
Brian Roop: not to the "why" questions, no
Brian Roop: it's an infinite exploration
Bruce Mowbray: Hey-ya, Bert.
Zon Kwan: the why is just a tool to play with
Brian Roop: no i think it's more serious than that
Lugh Fehr: maybe there is no reason at all in nature - only a logical mind has reasons for doing things and there are more possibilities than answers
Bruce Mowbray: I think the mere "fact" that a species has evolved that can ask "Why?" is very interesting -- all by itself.
Zon Kwan: all is by itself
Zon Kwan: isn't that marvelous
Bertram Jacobus: i think, i find the question "how" more interesting ...
Lugh Fehr: if you do like an annoying kid and keep asking why but why it always leads to i don't know that's why parents get irate
Zon Kwan: why ?
Zon Kwan: lol
Bertram Jacobus: i think "how" may solve problems . and why is "only" exploration -
Zon Kwan: why is there a problem?
Lugh Fehr: heh :)
Zon Kwan: one creates problems to solve them
Bruce Mowbray ponders:   I . . . . Why?
Brian Roop: so the problems are not out there already?
Zon Kwan: no. we create them
Bertram Jacobus: i find, it is not necessarily to "create problems" - suffering, pain and such are problems enough to solve i find ... physically , psychological ...
Bertram Jacobus: hi chi :-)
Lugh Fehr: hey chi
Bruce Mowbray: Hey-ya, Chi.
Brian Roop: hi chi
Lugh Fehr: but why are they a problem?
Chi Aho: Hey, Lugh, Bruce, everyone
Lugh Fehr: why is health important? why do we need to survive? 
Zon Kwan: problem = in front of us is cast a task we must solve
Brian Roop: because all those cells we are made up of resist death
Lugh Fehr: why?
Brian Roop: demand nourishment
Zon Kwan: play of the universe
Zon Kwan: why do children play games
Alfred Kelberry: 'why' is an infinite question :)
Brian Roop: where does instinct come from?
Lugh Fehr: why do footballer kick the ball in the net when absolutely nothing comes of it?
Alfred Kelberry: but 'how' has a scope
Zon Kwan: for the money
Brian Roop: for the pride
Bruce Mowbray: for the fun.
Zon Kwan: why do we ask 'how ?'
Brian Roop: oh no we don't do fun - we are too serious for that!
Archmage Atlantis: sometimes we don't grasp an answer.....sometimes we listen to the music and dance
Zon Kwan: who is serious ?
Bruce Mowbray: Hey-ya, Wol.
Lugh Fehr: how do kicking a ball in a net generate money and pride hehehe
Brian Roop: does that get us in trouble?
Lugh Fehr: hey wol
Alfred Kelberry: what is the topic anyway? :)
Chi Aho: Hi, Eva
Bertram Jacobus: hy Evangeline and Wol :-)
Alfred Kelberry: woly :)
Bruce Mowbray: Hey-ya, Evangeline.
--BELL--
Lugh Fehr: hey eva
Alfred Kelberry: hi, eva
Brian Roop: hi
Evangeline Allegiere: HI Bertram, everyone
Wol Euler: hello everyone, sorry I'm late
Evangeline Allegiere: ty chi:-))
Chi Aho: yw
Zon Kwan: wol
Zon Kwan: evan
Bertram Jacobus: late ? ;-)
Lugh Fehr: what has life and the universe generated up to now? what has it accomplished so far?
Brian Roop: us
Lugh Fehr: drama i think
Zon Kwan: who are we ?
Lugh Fehr: and what did we accomplish?
Zon Kwan: a nice discussion ?
Brian Roop: brb, nature calls
Lugh Fehr: hmm nothing but stories
Bruce Mowbray adds [for the record] that Evangeline has given her permission in IM to publish chat.
Wol Euler: ty
Zon Kwan: what else is there but stories?
Chi Aho thinks there is a natural tendency in the universe toward development, and that is the course we (many of us) tend to take
Lugh Fehr: everything becomes history in due time]
Archmage Atlantis: I apologize for the old tale, but we were created in the image of the creator....after all, what else was the to build on?
Zon Kwan: where does that development lead us ?
Chi Aho: intellectual, emotional, social, moral and spiritual fulfillment
Alfred Kelberry: ants were created by the ant god
Zon Kwan: and then..?
Wol Euler: :)
Lugh Fehr: to weirder and more far fetched stories hehee
Brian Roop: is not the universe all one life form?
Archmage Atlantis: and then along came
Bertram Jacobus: i agree chi ...
Lugh Fehr: i would never have believed that the universe exists if im not part of it
Zon Kwan: u r lugh..no doubt
Chi Aho: You would not think if you were not a thinker?
Brian Roop: or is one not a thinker because one thinks?
Archmage Atlantis: very Descartes of you, Chi
Brian Roop: thinking is a function of what.....?
Alfred Kelberry: Brian, when someone poses that question, i like to think of the string theory. it helps to relate.
Lugh Fehr: what is raining but rain and what are thoughts but thinking?
Zon Kwan: thinker is the other pole of thought
Chi Aho: But I don't think that way, Arch - I just left a discussion that convinced me that "I" do not exist at all
Brian Roop: we don't just think, we think about something
Brian Roop: we process perception
Alfred Kelberry: chi :)
Zon Kwan: something exists
Archmage Atlantis: Then I deny that you exist Chi
Chi Aho: Correct
Brian Roop: so why was Chi not just annihilated?
Lugh Fehr: what if there was no law to create and no law to hold back creation? will their be something and nothing at all at the same time?
Zon Kwan: something exists in us, and we call it I
Alfred Kelberry: here we came to the question what is reality :)
Zon Kwan: a word
Brian Roop: that describes what........?
Zon Kwan: this..aaaaaaaaaaaaaah
Brian Roop: nice tonsils Zon
Zon Kwan: ty.. i try to keep them fit
Brian Roop: lol
Bruce Mowbray considers the space around each thought . . . as at least as "necessary" as the thought itself.
Zon Kwan: bows and goes. if he exists..
Bertram Jacobus: bye friends - have a nice time pls and ty
Brian Roop: silence is as important as sound
Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Zon and Bert -- Be well -- exist well -- think well.
Wol Euler: bye bert
Wol Euler: bye zon
Lugh Fehr: if in the beginning there was absolutely nothing that could hold back creation
Wol Euler: take care
Chi Aho: bye
Brian Roop: yes zon, keep existing
Lugh Fehr: bye bert:)
Brian Roop: bye bert
Bruce Mowbray: Bye Bert.
Bertram Jacobus: ty again :-)
Bruce Mowbray ponders "Nothing that could hold back creation. . . ."
Alfred Kelberry: *crunches on a cookie*
Bruce Mowbray holds breath.
Alfred Kelberry: mmm, nice
Alfred Kelberry: want some, bruce? :)
Lugh Fehr: there is no cookie ..but it sure tastes good hehe :P
Bruce Mowbray: sure!
Wol Euler: nice wings, arch.
Bruce Mowbray: First there is no cookie. Then there is.
Brian Roop: yes, cool
Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Archie.
Alfred Kelberry: *hands bruce a yummy crunchy butter cookie*
Wol Euler: my dears, I'm going to move on as well, I'm really tired.
Wol Euler: goodnight, take care, be happy.
Lugh Fehr: bye wol
Alfred Kelberry: whatever there is, there sure is taste :)
Chi Aho: c u later Wol
Bruce Mowbray: OK, Wol. Bye for now.
Alfred Kelberry: aww, woly is leaving :(
Alfred Kelberry: so soon
Alfred Kelberry: *cries*
Lugh Fehr: brb
--BELL--
Alfred Kelberry: *thinks of Corel Draw* :)
Bruce Mowbray: Hey-ya, Korel.
Alfred Kelberry: hi, kor :)
Chi Aho: Hi Carla
Lugh Fehr: and everything is created in the form of the creator everything is yin and yang ! nothing existed so everything existed because nothing could stop it !
Lugh Fehr: male female day night happiness sorrow
Bruce Mowbray: Nothing existed 'yet' that was capable of stopping "it."
Lugh Fehr: but it still doesn't exist that's why its an illusion
Bruce Mowbray: ... nothing existed with the need or desire to stop it.
Korel Laloix: Hey
Lugh Fehr: everything is by default
Brian Roop: doesn't seem logical to me
Bruce Mowbray: Everything is by necessity.
Lugh Fehr: now tell me that's not a fool-proof creation myth
Brian Roop: default would be non-existence
Bruce Mowbray: consider Existence as imperative.
Brian Roop: then why are existent things discrete?
Bruce Mowbray prefers the word "Being."
Brian Roop: separately perceptible
Brian Roop: ?
Bruce Mowbray: because discretion is the better part of valor?
Brian Roop: why are they not just one big blob of Being?
Lugh Fehr: yes and a complete non existence will lead to everything existing because nothing is there -  no rule to say something cannot poof out of thin air and no rule to say that it can
Alfred Kelberry: i imagine how ancient people came up with frying meat. it must had been a neat discovery :)
Bruce Mowbray: In one "vision," they are "all" one big blob of being.
Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps "separation" is the Original Sin (quote - unquote).
Lugh Fehr: they are and are not because nothing says that they have to be one blob
Alfred Kelberry: they didn't even have a notion of reality
Lugh Fehr: everything that could be is so everything is infinite
Brian Roop: then why do we perceive them as individuated?
Chi Aho: Maybe things only appear to be separate and distinct because that is the way that we perceive things.
Lugh Fehr: because everything exists -  they are individual as well
Bruce Mowbray: Buddhism would say, perhaps, that we see them as individuated because WE are deluded.
Brian Roop: why would we perceive them so if they were not so?
Brian Roop: i think that's an unjustified assumption
Bruce Mowbray: We perceive a LOT of things as "so" that as not so.
Chi Aho: look at it all as an insect would see things
Lugh Fehr: and what makes a delusion un-real?
Brian Roop: because no one else sees it
Lugh Fehr: no one else sees my thoughts
Brian Roop: ah bruce is retreating to the inner child
Lugh Fehr: aren't they real?
Brian Roop: no but when you describe things that no one else sees, as real and objective, then you got problems
Evangeline Allegiere: lol:-)
Bruce Mowbray -- Inner child it is!

Lugh Fehr: what problems?
Brian Roop: if you describe an object that no one else sees, others have a right to say you are deluded
Chi Aho: Lugh, aren't you just saying that we cannot claim that the world *is* the way we perceive it?
Inner child of Bruce remembers that ALL of his RL friends think SL is delusional.
Lugh Fehr: im claiming that everything is because nothing could hold it back from being created
Brian Roop: but your sl friends know there's a real Bruce behind the avi
Brian Roop: being created by whom, for what?
Chi Aho: not "by whom"; creation is a process
Chi Aho: continuous, but we view things discretely
Lugh Fehr: that's my point for any reason at all it must be created because their is nothing holding it back
Brian Roop: does not every process have a beginning and an end?
Lugh Fehr: they are all true
Korel Laloix: If it is a cycle, no.
Brian Roop: so you assume the process of existence is a cycle?
Evangeline Allegiere: ty all so much-have to go for now
Evangeline Allegiere: :-)
Lugh Fehr: aint it obvious and totally makes sense that nothing exists but their is something that's the weird part and i have to be there because nothing means nothing no law to say that nothing exists
Bruce Mowbray: Byeeee, Evangeline.
Brian Roop is getting a headache, retreats to inner child
Bruce Mowbray: Come back when you can.
Lugh Fehr: if nothing exists then everything exists by default and that's where we are
Bruce Mowbray finds fishing in the fountain with marshmallow stick easer if standing.

Brian Roop: will Bruce's marshmallow toast over the water?
--BELL--
Bruce Mowbray: One can hope.
Brian Roop: wrong element
Alfred Kelberry: steamed marshmallow :)
Bruce Mowbray feels he should have ordered "fire element."
Lugh Fehr: okay i take a rest from it but i really thing it the obvious creation story and it falls perfectly with the latest quantum theories
Bruce Mowbray resorts to fire element to roast marsh's.
Korel Laloix: It is silly cold here so the idea of having some roasted marshmallows sounds lovely.
Brian Roop: Brian's inner child wonders if Bruce's will share marshmallows
Bruce Mowbray: I shall give you some, Korel. Anyone else?
Lugh Fehr: :D
Bruce Mowbray: Of course, he will!
Korel Laloix: wado
Brian Roop: yum, yum!, thanks bruce
Lugh Fehr: oh now i really want marshmallows
Korel Laloix: With graham crackers and chocolate.....lovely thoughts.
Chi Aho: Thanks Bruce
Alfred Kelberry: thank you, bruce :)
Bruce Mowbray: yw yw yw yw
Korel Laloix: There is nothing phallic about this at all.... lol
Chi Aho switches to Oreo cookie

Lugh Fehr: tnx bruce :P im roasting them on water :P\
Lugh Fehr: ahh brb i go grab something to munch
Brian Roop: yum, yum, oh! oh! Oreos!
Bruce Mowbray: Time for Brucie to eat RL food. . .
Bruce Mowbray: Thanks to you all and be well.
Brian Roop: Brian too, alas!
Bruce Mowbray dies from laughing....