2011.02.24 01:00 - Sleep, Zazen and Trust

The Guardian for this meeting was Zen Arado. The comments are by Zen Arado. Present were Alfred Kelberry, eggsalad Ormstein, Kit Ciaco, Korel Laloix, Mickorod Renard and myself

Getting up early in Zen retreats:

Kit Ciaco: Hi, zen
Zen Arado: Hi Kit :)
eggsalad Ormstein: hi gang
Kit Ciaco: Hi ya, egg!
Zen Arado: Hi eggsalad :)
Zen Arado: how are you both?
eggsalad Ormstein: hi kit&zen
Kit Ciaco: good!
eggsalad Ormstein: I'm swell
Zen Arado: great
Zen Arado: I'm tired :)
Zen Arado: I've been getting up very early all week
Zen Arado: but not going to bed early enough
eggsalad Ormstein: oh, I try to avoid waking before noon!
Kit Ciaco: LOL!
Zen Arado: I'm goig to a Zen retreat tomorrow
Zen Arado: at the retreat we get up at 5.30 am
Zen Arado: so been tring to work towards that all week
Kit Ciaco: sounds like fun!
Zen Arado: well....fun...hmmm
eggsalad Ormstein: well, I work in the evenings
Zen Arado: mostly just sitting looking at the wall in front of you
Kit Ciaco: hmmmm
Zen Arado: but there's something about it I like
Kit Ciaco: Heck, I sure hope so!
Zen Arado: can't put into words
Zen Arado: yeh
Kit Ciaco: no need for words
Zen Arado: otherwise sheer masochism
Zen Arado: :)
Kit Ciaco: lol
Zen Arado: something about the peacefulness of silence
Kit Ciaco: I was always intrigued by the notion of walking zazen
Kit Ciaco: yes, there is that
Zen Arado: walking meditation?
Korel Laloix: Heya
Kit Ciaco: yes
eggsalad Ormstein: hi korel
Kit Ciaco: hey, Korel
Zen Arado: Hi Korel:)
Korel Laloix: bozho
Zen Arado: zazen actually means seated meditation
Zen Arado: za = sitting
Zen Arado: zen = meditation
Kit Ciaco: uh huh - I've actually heard it called walking zazen
Zen Arado: kinhin is walking meditation
Zen Arado: yeh maybe
Kit Ciaco: Well - I bow to your expertise
Korel Laloix: How about running meditiation?
Kit Ciaco: not much
eggsalad Ormstein: or skipping meditation?
Kit Ciaco: LOL
Zen Arado: sometimes they walk fast outside
Korel Laloix: My real meditation and prayer time is when I run.
Kit Ciaco: yes, Korel!
Zen Arado: you can make anything into meditation I guess if you do it mindfully
Korel Laloix: One of the big reasons I don't run on roads.... ...
Kit Ciaco: or mindlessly sometimes
Kit Ciaco: ie - emptying
Zen Arado: o yes Korel
Zen Arado: and there is a rhythym element too I think
Zen Arado: yeh
Zen Arado: if you concentrate on the body sensations it empties the mind
Korel Laloix: I do try to keep things steady.
Zen Arado: it's good if you are worried or stressed about something
Zen Arado: Hi Mick :)
Mickorod Renard: good morning
Korel Laloix: heya
Zen Arado: half term holiday?
Korel Laloix: way too early morning.... frowns
Mickorod Renard: yes :)
Mickorod Renard: thought i would see who comes on at this time of the day
eggsalad Ormstein: hi mick
Zen Arado: yeh getting into body sensations and away from mind churning can be good I think
Mickorod Renard: hi egg

Sleep problems:

Korel Laloix: My insomnia has been rather strong recently, so been here for this one a bit more.
Mickorod Renard: well, i have work to do here at home,,but I thought I could delay it for another hour
Korel Laloix: Sounds like a plan.
Zen Arado: Eckhart Tolle recommends concentrating on a part of your body if you can't sleep
eggsalad Ormstein: I have somnia
Korel Laloix: I have tried that one.
Kit Ciaco: lol, egg!
Korel Laloix: Does not really work for me.
Mickorod Renard: I used to have insomnia
Korel Laloix: I did a sleep clinic and it helped a lot.
Mickorod Renard: both ends
Zen Arado: yeh me either must admit
Korel Laloix: But still not what I need.
Korel Laloix: brb
Zen Arado: I have a friend who has big sleep problem
Mickorod Renard: I couldnt get to sleep and then at the end i couldnt stay asleep
Zen Arado: what did you do about it Mick?
Mickorod Renard: that was quick
Zen Arado: faster in the mornings Mick :)
Mickorod Renard: I came to terms with what my subconcious was trying to get me to do
Zen Arado: I just accept that I am not going to sleep all night
Mickorod Renard: thats one aproach I guess Zen
Zen Arado: did it work?
Mickorod Renard: my method is now working
Zen Arado: good
Mickorod Renard: although i can get it sometimes when i try and lie in in the mornings
Zen Arado: if you think 'I must get some sleep' it makes it worse
Mickorod Renard: fortunately my life style doesnt allow me to lay in long anyway
Zen Arado: if I lie in I can't sleep when I go to bed
Zen Arado: next night
Mickorod Renard: I get haunting recollections of past events
Zen Arado: even naps stop me sleeping at night
Zen Arado: oh?
Mickorod Renard: and my subconcious wants me to do something about them
Zen Arado: a bit like PTSD then?
Mickorod Renard: but whats past is past
Mickorod Renard: yes
Zen Arado: flashbacks
Mickorod Renard: almost wanting some redemption
Mickorod Renard: I guess
Zen Arado: I tend to think about what I did that day
Zen Arado: or what is coming tomorrow
Mickorod Renard: I can control the getting to sleep bit,,but when awaking there is a lack of control of thoughts
Zen Arado: I suppose that really you can't control sleep tho
Zen Arado: it just happens or not
Mickorod Renard: here lies the problem,,the subcon is trying to sort out unfinnished business through dreams i guess
Zen Arado: yeh
Zen Arado: I dream a lot
Mickorod Renard: and it keeps churning them up
Mickorod Renard: time is a healer
Zen Arado: meditation helps me a bit I think
Mickorod Renard: but as well as that one has to recondition the mind to accomodate some sort of resolve
Zen Arado: I can kinda detach from the thoughts
Mickorod Renard: either something like forgivness or similar issue
Zen Arado: ah yes
Zen Arado: maybe some things do need to be sorted out
Zen Arado: dealt with
Mickorod Renard: yes
Zen Arado: the things we repress coming up again
Mickorod Renard: for sure
Mickorod Renard: viewing from diferent perspectives deal with much during the periods of woken state
Zen Arado: this is what I do in meditation
eggsalad Ormstein: soup!
Mickorod Renard: how do you do this Zen?
Kit Ciaco: lol!
eggsalad Ormstein: gotcha, kit
Zen Arado: soup?
Kit Ciaco: LOL!
Mickorod Renard: when one has an issue, its like some oil spill
Mickorod Renard: it sticks to all sorts
Zen Arado: ok
Zen Arado: yeh
Mickorod Renard: and it needs breaking up and washing away
Zen Arado: I kinda watch the thoughts that come up
Mickorod Renard: yes?

Meditation technique:

Zen Arado: " We can begin to watch our thoughts and emotions without necessarily being affected by them quite as powerfully or vividly as we’re used to. We can still feel our feelings, think our thoughts, but slowly our identity shifts from a person who defines him- or herself as lonely, ashamed, frightened, or hobbled by low self-esteem to a person who can look at loneliness, shame, and low self-esteem as movements of the mind."
Zen Arado: from an article I was reading this morning
Mickorod Renard: interesting Zen
Zen Arado: http://www.tricycle.com/dharma-talk/...ntion?page=0,0
Mickorod Renard: thankyou
Mickorod Renard: I get the feeling though, that there is some energy attached to the problem
Zen Arado: it's a kind of depersonalizing process isn't it?
Mickorod Renard: yes
Zen Arado: yeh but the mind adds energy doesn't it?
Zen Arado: that's the problem
Zen Arado: it makes every thing so important
Mickorod Renard: I think it has held back some reserve to address the issue yet the issue is not being addressed in a way that the energy is allowed to escape
Zen Arado: yeh
Zen Arado: how to let go of that energy
Mickorod Renard: yea
Mickorod Renard: and I am not sure i want to,,it seems like lowering the barrel of your gun
Zen Arado: but just observing thoughts instead of adding more fuel by keeping thinking should allow them to dissipate
Zen Arado: yeh we want to cling to the thoughts
Zen Arado: often they are very repetitive
Zen Arado: not constructive
Zen Arado: round and round in the same channel

Historical clinging to ideas:

Mickorod Renard: it must be similar to alot of conflicts,,that have long since passed but the memories still make nations apprehensive, defensive and so on,,
Zen Arado: (wish I could type)
Zen Arado: yeh
Mickorod Renard: :)
eggsalad Ormstein: maybe you need the koan of typing
Mickorod Renard: he he
Zen Arado: or something
Zen Arado: :)
Kit Ciaco: LOL!
Zen Arado: the theory is easy
Zen Arado: you heard all this before I'm sure
Zen Arado: it's doing a daily practice that counts
Zen Arado: I think
Mickorod Renard: I think of nations like israel and even ireland ..where there are these attachments to nation boundaries,,which seem to be expensive on human life
Zen Arado: yeh
Zen Arado: they still relive 300 year old battle here in N.Ireland
Mickorod Renard: like they say,,no man is an island
Zen Arado: the Battle of the Boyne
Mickorod Renard: yes
Zen Arado: 1690 it was
eggsalad Ormstein: also, no man is a roast beef sandwich
Mickorod Renard: he he
Zen Arado: yummy tho
Kit Ciaco: I suppose some folks reckon some battles are okay to prolong
Kit Ciaco: because of the value behind it
Mickorod Renard: well, thats my point Kit
Zen Arado: preserves old divisions and hatreds tho
Kit Ciaco: exactly
Mickorod Renard: when trying to resolve mind issues
Kit Ciaco: well, it's about the stakes, I think
Mickorod Renard: that too
Kit Ciaco: which each person must assess for themselves
Zen Arado: supremacist positions
Kit Ciaco: I'm not going to determine which battles a person or nation should or should not wage....
Zen Arado: we are the people
Mickorod Renard: well, we are all for saying things like forgivenes is a strength,,but on a national level why doesnt that work?
Zen Arado: funny how groups of people can think themselves superior to others
Zen Arado: maybe it is fear
Kit Ciaco: depends - freedom over tyranny?? I don't know....
Mickorod Renard: yes, there are so many questions here,,like trust
Zen Arado: the ruling classes are always afraid the underlings will revolt
Zen Arado: as is happening now in Middle Eaast
Mickorod Renard: yes
Mickorod Renard: but if the revolt was in the past why defend against it
Mickorod Renard: or even fight it or look for revenge
Mickorod Renard: oops
Zen Arado: the upper class want to retain the status quo
Zen Arado: their privileged way of life
Zen Arado: hmmm....starting to sound communist
Korel Laloix: lol
Mickorod Renard: but what say that of individual issues of the mind?
Mickorod Renard: is it all about control?
Zen Arado: we are part of a group consensus too tho
Zen Arado: we take our values from the people around us don't we?
Mickorod Renard: mm yes
Kit Ciaco: not always
Zen Arado: maybe more than we admit
Zen Arado: true Kit
Zen Arado: I am a nonconformist
Zen Arado: I hope
Zen Arado: but.....

Unresolved issues:

Mickorod Renard: but if we are suffering insomnia from some unresolved issue,,what are the real routes and how do we resolve them without the loosing of whatever
Zen Arado: maybe needs psychoanalysis Mick?
Mickorod Renard: its the loop like these other national scale loops that get stuck
Zen Arado: or psychotherapy
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: 'stuckness'
Mickorod Renard: he he
Zen Arado: habitual patterns
Mickorod Renard: yes
Zen Arado: we have to see them first tho
Mickorod Renard: habitual patterns,,they are so stuck in our lives
Zen Arado: tell me about it
Mickorod Renard: that is a great subject Zen
Zen Arado: they give us seeming security
Zen Arado: it's a habitual subject for me :)
Mickorod Renard: but stop us experiencing freedom
Zen Arado: yeh
Zen Arado: chained by our habits
Zen Arado: seesm so daft too
eggsalad Ormstein: time for bed
Zen Arado: nite Egg
Kit Ciaco: g'night, Egg!!!
Zen Arado: sleep well
Kit Ciaco: Always good to see y!
Mickorod Renard: just think if they took the walls down in Israel,,and everyone chose to b''nite egg
Mickorod Renard: missed him
Zen Arado: he went quick

Freedom and trust:

Mickorod Renard: everyone chose to enjoy freedom
Zen Arado: yeh but what is freedom?
Mickorod Renard: freedom comes with a price to respect others
Kit Ciaco: good point, Mick
Zen Arado: my freedom might impinge on the freedom of others
Zen Arado: yes Mick
Zen Arado: Hi Alf:)
Kit Ciaco: It's Boxy!
Kit Ciaco: Hey!
Mickorod Renard: Hi Alf
Alfred Kelberry: meep!
Alfred Kelberry: oh, sorry, korel
Alfred Kelberry: landed on you :)
Alfred Kelberry: hi guys :)
Zen Arado: Meep Meep ;P :p:P :p :P
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Kit Ciaco: Meep Meep ;P :p:P :p :P
Alfred Kelberry: meepers :)
Zen Arado: free to meep
Zen Arado: the right to meep unobstructed
Alfred Kelberry: well, how are you today?
Zen Arado: the meep revolt
Mickorod Renard: so I guess thats it then,,if there is no chance of trusting the other side to respect oneself then keep the barrier up?
Zen Arado: ok ty Alf
Mickorod Renard: meep meep
Mickorod Renard: :)
Alfred Kelberry: the topic is trust?
Kit Ciaco: good point, Mick - at national and personal levels
Zen Arado: trust is the key isn't it?
Mickorod Renard: sort of
Mickorod Renard: yes
Zen Arado: freedom and trust
Alfred Kelberry: i think the key is an open conversation
Zen Arado: trust places expectations on people
Zen Arado: good point boxy
Zen Arado: give and take
Kit Ciaco: hmmmm
Zen Arado: openness
Zen Arado: open climate
Mickorod Renard: if you dont trust the opposition then one suspects it may not be open Alf
Alfred Kelberry: lack of which leads to suspicion and assumptions
Zen Arado: but trust means I expect you to behave in a cetain way
Zen Arado: an implied 'you should behave this way?
Alfred Kelberry: no
Zen Arado: if you don't I won't trust you any more
Mickorod Renard: but i assume if there is a conflict its based on past infringements
Kit Ciaco: Trusting someone else may be more about saying "I am trustworthy" and inviting the other to also be trustworthy
Zen Arado: yes like that Kit
Kit Ciaco: I find myself becoming very suspicious of others who are suspicious - otherwise, I am very trusting
Alfred Kelberry: trust is a confidence in one's judgement
Mickorod Renard: yes, thats sometimes the only option left Kit
Kit Ciaco: exatly, Boxy!
Zen Arado: be trustworthy but don't force it on others
Kit Ciaco: it has nothing to do with the other
Kit Ciaco: it has all to do with self
Kit Ciaco: and there is no place for force in trust
Alfred Kelberry: meep!
Mickorod Renard: if judgement has been decieved before then it is likeely to be weak
Mickorod Renard: oops
Zen Arado: yeh you have confidence in your judgment that your expectatins will be met
Alfred Kelberry: mick, are you talking about how to gain trust in an already ruined relationship?
Mickorod Renard: but there is still no resolve,,cos what we have gotten to is ..the cost of not being trustworthy is that there is a penalty of having a barrier put up
Zen Arado: maybe it comes back to 'if you want to change the world start with yourself'
Alfred Kelberry: mick, anyhow, it can't be resolved without a conversation :)
Alfred Kelberry: be it open or in a form of a contract
Mickorod Renard: yes?
Kit Ciaco: Boxy - that sort of implies that neither "side" posture for "leadership" or "expertise??
Zen Arado: openness is only the start
Zen Arado: ?
Alfred Kelberry: it only implies an ability to listen and be heard :)
Zen Arado: but a good start
Kit Ciaco: agreed, boxy!
Mickorod Renard: I would liken it to having a contract with someone who renagues on it
Mickorod Renard: would one trust again?
Mickorod Renard: and should one penalise the renager
Zen Arado: actions are what count in the end
Zen Arado remembers a famous zen teacher say not to trust anybody
Mickorod Renard: yes?
Zen Arado: really we should 'not know' anyone
Zen Arado: stay open to them
Kit Ciaco considers that one who is unable to trust others is unable to trust self
Alfred Kelberry: zen, i ignore such utopistic claims in application to rl :)
Korel Laloix: ok... sleep finally... ciao all
Mickorod Renard: bye korel
Zen Arado: bye Korel
Alfred Kelberry: but it may be good for a philosophical debate
Kit Ciaco: We can know others incompletely....
Zen Arado: no think it is important in RL too
Mickorod Renard: I try and work on the basis of..its better to trust all and be ripped off occasionally than never to trust at all
Alfred Kelberry: as for renege, i'd first try to understand one's actions that led to it
Zen Arado: we place an image of people in front of them
Zen Arado: and expect them to live up to our expectation
Mickorod Renard: thats a good point Alf,,but ultimately it would come down to greed
Kit Ciaco: I'm not sure
Zen Arado: yes Alf
Alfred Kelberry: mick, it's good to be cautious, yet i do believe that there are far more good people in the world :)
Mickorod Renard: we do judge others from our own thoughts,,and sometimes from the innocence of our own beliefs
Zen Arado: I suppose you have to trust people sometimes
Kit Ciaco: I do, too....
Alfred Kelberry: mick, it's your assumption
Alfred Kelberry: or perspective
Alfred Kelberry: it can be anything really
Mickorod Renard: but if you repetitively trust and get suckered in then surely you are a fool?
Kit Ciaco: who's to say?
Zen Arado: wondring if I trust myself...
Mickorod Renard: he he
Zen Arado: don't think I do
Mickorod Renard: If anyone really knew what I thought noone would want to know me
Zen Arado: I have let myself down so often
Kit Ciaco: I think one probelm would be to get slammed by one or a few people and then be untrusting of the world
Kit Ciaco: I know a lot of folks who do this
Zen Arado: yeh Kit
Alfred Kelberry: mick, um... you have to be careful who you choose to trust
Zen Arado: retire into a safe cocoon
Zen Arado: and become bitter
Mickorod Renard: ok,,so the cost of not trusting someone or some place would be exclusion?
Zen Arado: staying open but wary might be best
Kit Ciaco: I would not want to live my life warily
Zen Arado: there's a middle way I think
Mickorod Renard: its a very emotive subject..grin
Alfred Kelberry: either exclusion or a contract based relationship
Zen Arado: warily not right word.....
Mickorod Renard: so the contract should include penalties?
Zen Arado: exercising discernment?
Alfred Kelberry: um, if you're the boss :)
Mickorod Renard: a middle way
Mickorod Renard: :)
Zen Arado: there's always a middle way
Mickorod Renard: the problem is with repercussion,,there is no cost attached to doing wrong
Zen Arado: :)
Mickorod Renard: public flogging should be brought back
Zen Arado: :)
Alfred Kelberry: i had a quite annoying peer at work. i first tried to fight him, but then figured out it's just his nature and adapted to the situation (you could say i decided to "be present and observe" in a pab way :) eventually, i rather enjoyed his company :)
Zen Arado: retributive justice
Kit Ciaco: good example, boxy
Zen Arado: yep
Mickorod Renard: yes, nice Alf
Zen Arado: going with the flow
Kit Ciaco: more than that - listening with openess and respect for possibilities
Zen Arado: but you can't be a doormat either
Mickorod Renard: as with discussions re wok etc..anger is only harmful to the self
Zen Arado: yeh
Alfred Kelberry: zen, not that, it's ultimately in you, not the flow around you
Kit Ciaco: hehehehe
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Zen Arado: in you and around you I think
Zen Arado: all part of the same thing
Kit Ciaco: we can't control the flow around us - we can control the flow within
Alfred Kelberry: mick, yes, anger can be very distructive
Zen Arado: it's when we separate we have trouble
Alfred Kelberry: sadly, most of the time closed ones are those who suffer most
Zen Arado: yeh but the two are intertwined I think
Mickorod Renard: I have noticed that some folk that are a bit dodgy do end up with issues,,at least I am happy,,and that must be a gift
Kit Ciaco: perhaps - but it begins within....
Zen Arado: ever notice how anger separates
Alfred Kelberry: yay for mick! :)
Zen Arado: people stop speaking
Mickorod Renard: :)
Alfred Kelberry: meep!
Mickorod Renard: is it greedy to want to be more happy?
Zen Arado: they stop meeping
Kit Ciaco: it is not, mick
Zen Arado: no of course not
Mickorod Renard: :)
Zen Arado: yeh cheaters never win
Zen Arado: as they say
Zen Arado: only temporarily
Alfred Kelberry: wakaon
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Alfred Kelberry: wakaoff
Zen Arado: you woke me up Alf
Alfred Kelberry: hehe
Alfred Kelberry: sorry? :)
Mickorod Renard: ok guys ,,,gotta go,,rl summons me
Zen Arado: I better go
Alfred Kelberry: alright
Mickorod Renard: :)
Mickorod Renard: good chat
Zen Arado: haven't had breakfast yet
Alfred Kelberry: it's been a nice conversation. thank you.
Mickorod Renard: thankyou
Zen Arado: yes thanks for coming
Alfred Kelberry: meep!
Zen Arado: bye