2011.02.12 13:00 - You Can't Get There From Here

The Guardian for this meeting was Pema Pera. The comments are by Pema Pera.

Pema Pera: Hi Rhia!
Pema Pera: Hi Druth!
druth Vlodovic: there, I think I've established a pattern :)
druth Vlodovic: hi pema, hi rhi
Pema Pera: what kind of pattern?
Rhiannon Dragoone: hi druth
druth Vlodovic: it's important to establich a pattern in seating arrangements, don't ask me why
Pema Pera: what pattern did you find, Druth?
druth Vlodovic: we're a triangle right now
Pema Pera: ah, I see :-)
druth Vlodovic: you're not doing the retreat pema?
Rhiannon Dragoone: triangles are good
Pema Pera: it will be hard *not* to make a triangle here with three avatars :)
Rhiannon Dragoone: oh, there's a retreat today?
Pema Pera: no, I'm not, Rhia, just no time
Pema Pera: sounds like a great exploration though
druth Vlodovic: ah
druth Vlodovic: I look forward to reading about it
Pema Pera: and yes, this may explain the quietness here right now
Pema Pera: me too
Pema Pera: it's the second SL one
Pema Pera: the previous one was two months ago
Pema Pera: we have had seven RL retreats
Pema Pera: once every three months
druth Vlodovic: have you seen the gallery lately rhi? it has a "who am I, and how does my avatar reveal it" theme
Pema Pera: it's a great collection of pictures!
druth Vlodovic: (sorry, all talky today)
Pema Pera: that's fine, Druth!
druth Vlodovic: it's funny to see the difference between what they look like before you read the notecard, and after
Pema Pera: please continue, there are only three of us after all

As soon as I said that, Aubergine and Hokon would make that five :)

Pema Pera: ah, yes :-)
Rhiannon Dragoone: Hi Aubergine!
druth Vlodovic: I didn't see your there?
druth Vlodovic: hi aubergine
Aubergine Mint: hiya
Pema Pera: hi Aubergine!
Pema Pera: and hi Hokon!
Hokon Cazalet: hello peeps
druth Vlodovic: ah, a nomad to restore our pattern
Hokon Cazalet: lol
Hokon Cazalet: yes you civilized folk need help
Hokon Cazalet: hi rhia =)
Pema Pera: :-)
Rhiannon Dragoone: hi hokon!
Hokon Cazalet: Weeee! ^.^
Pema Pera: (now we form a kind of big dipper configuration)
Hokon Cazalet: hehe
Aubergine Mint: :)
Pema Pera: (we were talking about seating arrangements earlier)
druth Vlodovic: I can never remember, it is me or hokon who is the north star?
Hokon Cazalet: =)
Pema Pera: It's neither, it's in the direction I am looking now, across from the pond in the grass
druth Vlodovic: if I get lost in the woods I'll have to take you along...
Pema Pera: hahaha, just let me know a day or so before you get lost
Pema Pera: so that I can come over
druth Vlodovic: I plan all my accidents at least a week in advance
Pema Pera: it reminds me of an earthquake drill in Japan
Pema Pera: in the little neighborhood of Kyoto where I lived
Pema Pera: it was announced to happen at 9 am in the morning, very convenient :-)
Pema Pera: we all walked to the local elementary school, where there was a huge cauldron full of miso soup
druth Vlodovic: lol
druth Vlodovic: nice
--BELL--
druth Vlodovic: when my daughter was in kindergarten they had a fire drill, the teacher was supposed to get their shoes on ahead of time, but didn't check her mailbox

My next line crossed that of Druth, so for a while we had two conversations going on.

Pema Pera: I just noticed in your profile that you like Husserl, Hokon; he's my favorite European philosopher too
Hokon Cazalet: Yaaaaayyyyyyyy!
Pema Pera: ha, so what happened, Druth?
Hokon Cazalet: hehe druth
druth Vlodovic: they went out in the snow in their socks
druth Vlodovic: she got in trouble
Pema Pera: brrrrrrr
Hokon Cazalet: eep
druth Vlodovic: I thought it was a little overblown
Pema Pera: but a more realistic drill !
Pema Pera: What do you like most about Husserl, Hokon?
druth Vlodovic: oh yes, teaches the kids the real meaning of "leave everything"
Pema Pera: hahaha, yes, drop and freeze :-)
Hokon Cazalet: i like his style alot, his ideas, i also like his program of phenomenology, as a sort of first science
Hokon Cazalet: dunno if phenomenology can be a first science, but i like the project
Pema Pera: yes, and like physics, it has both an experimental and a theoretical side
Pema Pera: and the fact that he went back to the drawing boards five times or so in his life is great, very honest, happy to contradict his earlier positions
Hokon Cazalet: =)
Pema Pera: that is the sign of a really honest exploration
Hokon Cazalet: yeah its cool to read different versions of phenomenology from him
Hokon Cazalet: yup
Aubergine Mint: what does that mean phenomenology as a first science?
Pema Pera: as opposed to a game of "look how cleverly I can defend this innane position"
Pema Pera: hi Lucy!
druth Vlodovic: but I like that game!

Hokon gave a nice one-liner describing what phenomenology intends to be.

Hokon Cazalet: its a foundational field of inquiry, studies first principles of thought, and underlies all other scientific inquiries
Pema Pera: hehehe
Hokon Cazalet: lol druth
Lucinda Lavender: Hi Pema:)
Hokon Cazalet: hi lucinda =)
Lucinda Lavender: Holon, Druth
druth Vlodovic: hi luci
Aubergine Mint: hi lucinda
Lucinda Lavender: Hi Ginee
Pema Pera: as an example, Ginee, you can say that everything is made out of atoms and molecules -- and that is true for physics, but phenomenology points out that anything we know about matter, including atoms, is first of all give through the phenomena in our awareness
Pema Pera: so that's the base of any empirical science: phenomena
Hokon Cazalet: yup, objective science rests ultimately on subjectivity: human consciousness
Lucinda Lavender: on my way ...wish I could stay:)
druth Vlodovic: cya LL
Lucinda Lavender: bye for now...must show someone the guardian plot...between a star and a sone...
Pema Pera: bye Lucy!
druth Vlodovic: some reporters have used a similar idea to throw out the idea of objectivity I'm afraid
Hokon Cazalet: yes
Aubergine Mint: so atoms and molecules are so because of our awareness and not really so?
Hokon Cazalet: phenomenology by husserl was an attempt, among other things, to explain the validity of the objective sciences

For a whlle, Hokon and I would speak in rather parallel ways. :-)

Pema Pera: it's not a question of whether or not atoms or matter in general is real
Hokon Cazalet: he didnt want to go the route of empiricist skepticism (like hume)
Pema Pera: hahaha, we form a quatre mains here
Pema Pera: :-)
Hokon Cazalet: yeah phenomenology ignores the question of external reality existing and merely studies phenomena itself, as presented in the mind
Pema Pera: you need a telescope to study the stars, and consciousness to study any form of matter
Hokon Cazalet: (well husserl's version)
Hokon Cazalet: yup
Pema Pera: if you don't understand telescopes, you can't possibly interpret what you see through it
Hokon Cazalet: yup
Pema Pera: similarly our concsiousness is what we use to study anything else
druth Vlodovic: remove the photographic paper and you have no photograph, so to accept the picture you need to accept the influence of the paper
Pema Pera: yes
Aubergine Mint: can we know reality?
druth Vlodovic: I imagine so
Pema Pera: well, what would it mean to know reality, Ginee?
Pema Pera: or not to know it?
Aubergine Mint: I thought I knew when I got here, hehe
Pema Pera: hahaha
Aubergine Mint: seems I have some homework :)
Pema Pera: normally, we consider "knowing" with respect to a framework
Pema Pera: so perhaps your question is "can we go beyond *any* framework"?
Aubergine Mint: yes, that sounds like a good question
Aubergine Mint: can we?
Pema Pera: what do you think?
Pema Pera: hahaha
Pema Pera: okay, you were first
Hokon Cazalet: hehe
Aubergine Mint: :)
Pema Pera: here is my answer, as a sketch
Pema Pera: let us call the world of frameworks the "relative realm"
Pema Pera: and a possible world beyond frameworks the "absolute realm" or "ultimate realm"
--BELL--
Pema Pera: Now, first of all, a disclaimer: anything I say or write with words is by definition in the relative realm
Pema Pera: now the question: how to go from the relative to the absolute?
Pema Pera: I would say: you can't get there from here

I would take that line as the title for today's session.

Aubergine Mint: another good question
Pema Pera: for two reasons
Pema Pera: in the relative realm there is no room for the "there" (the absolute)
Pema Pera: and in the absolute realm there is no "here" . . . any "part" is already the whole -- including all that we experience when we think we are in the relative realm
Pema Pera: . . . but perhaps that was confusing . . . :-)
Aubergine Mint: not confusing, but does sound impossible
Hokon Cazalet: it sounds mystical to me
Aubergine Mint: that too
Pema Pera: yes, impossible to reach the absoluate because there is nothing to reach: we are already there
Hokon Cazalet: which is possible, i have met people who have had mystical experiences like that before
Aubergine Mint: so no homework?
Hokon Cazalet: lol aub
Pema Pera: yes, mystics often had some form of experimental handle on these things, though rarely a good theoretical insight
Pema Pera: well, we can discuss about homework :-)
Aubergine Mint: I was afraid of that
Hokon Cazalet: hehe
Pema Pera: a so-called mystic experience is typically something half-way
Pema Pera: some glimpses
Pema Pera: when seen more clearly there is nothing special
Pema Pera: (as far as I understand all this :-)
Hokon Cazalet: =)
druth Vlodovic: you've lost me, this "absolute" is a single point with no variation or size?

I gave some examples from various traditions, in order to make some connections to what otherwise might have sounded too abstract.

Pema Pera: no, it is everything, as it really is, everyday life seen "in the light of eternity" as Christians would say it
Aubergine Mint: I think I will stop today with "we are already there"
Pema Pera: or "seen as suchness" as Buddhist would say
Aubergine Mint: sounds like enough to chew on
Pema Pera: or "seen as the Tao" by Taoists
Pema Pera: bye Ginee!
Pema Pera: yes, I've told you my whole view
Aubergine Mint: bye
Hokon Cazalet: bye Gine =)
Pema Pera: so there' s nothing left :)
druth Vlodovic: have fun gin
Pema Pera: gin sounds like a good way to have fun :)
druth Vlodovic: ah well, there is no point in being skeptical of something you don't understand, still it sounds like "I got tired here and sat down"
Pema Pera: I do have a longer version, on http://wiki.playasbeing.org/PaB_Books/Magic_of_Time :-)
druth Vlodovic: guess I have some reading to do ;-?
Pema Pera: but I'd love to hear your understanding of reality too
Pema Pera: so that we can compare notes
Hokon Cazalet: hehe my views of reality keep changing the past 7 years
Pema Pera: no, you don't have to, Druth, I already gave the short form
druth Vlodovic: oh I just stayed in subjective reality and compare notes to my senses
Pema Pera: great, Hokon! In what way?
Hokon Cazalet: hehe druth
Pema Pera: sounds like you're a phenomenologist, Druth :-)

I enjoyed hearing about Hokon's adventure in sampling various worldviews.

Hokon Cazalet: alot of ways, i began as a kid into my teens as a physicalist/materialist, then took a intro to philosophy class and ditched that view, began to explore
Pema Pera: and then?
Hokon Cazalet: i first went to idealism for a while, seemed to be a way to solve the mind/body problem; then i got into kant and became a skeptic of metaphysics for about 3 years
Pema Pera: wonderful, you lived through it all !
Pema Pera: and then you found Husserl? Or Hegel first?
Hokon Cazalet: then ive gotten into aristotle's hylomorphism (form + material); then i got into husserl & hegel
Pema Pera: you have great taste!
Hokon Cazalet: no husserl first, ive only begun to read hegel a few months ago
Hokon Cazalet: hehe ty =)
Pema Pera: (haha, that means of course, "a similar taste as me")
Hokon Cazalet: Yaaaaayyyyyyyy!
Hokon Cazalet: lol
Pema Pera: I'm really sorry that I have to go
Hokon Cazalet: aw
Hokon Cazalet: okies
Pema Pera: but we'll get other chances!
Pema Pera: would like to continue this conversation
druth Vlodovic: ah pema, the slave of time
Hokon Cazalet: me too =)
Hokon Cazalet: hehe druth
druth Vlodovic: have fun
Pema Pera: good seeing you both!
Hokon Cazalet: Weeee! ^.^
Pema Pera: bfn
druth Vlodovic: bye both of you
Hokon Cazalet: byebyes =)
druth Vlodovic: I should follow you, see if some of your education rubs off on me :)
Hokon Cazalet: =)
Hokon Cazalet: hehe
--BELL--
Hokon Cazalet waves =)
druth Vlodovic: cya :)