2011.02.05 07:00 - free speech, risks and Nasrudin

The Guardian for this meeting was Bertram Jacobus. The comments are by Bertram Jacobus.

Bertram Jacobus: heyy qt ! :-)
Qt Core: hi Bert
--BELL--
Bertram Jacobus: how are you ? :-)
Qt Core: changing idea too fast to tell ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: okay ...
Qt Core: hi Yaku
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey bert and qt
Bertram Jacobus: but it´s a quality of chat to learn to express seemingly complex things in only a few words i experienced ... (!) ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: hey yaku :-)
Qt Core: even more if you are chatting in another language ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: yess. lol. may be :-)
Qt Core: we are having a little preview of spring, sun and 13,5 C
Bertram Jacobus: yes. similar in germany
Arisia Vita: Hi all
Qt Core: still 1C in the morning
Bertram Jacobus: hey ari - wow - new outfit ! let me take a closer look ... :-)
Qt Core: hi Arisia
Arisia Vita: all male today?
Bertram Jacobus: so far. yes ;-)
Qt Core: (risking my own life)... girls are always late ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: *g*
Bertram Jacobus: very brave qt ! ;-)
Arisia Vita: not much of a risk with only males around to hear you
Bertram Jacobus: no : it will be in the log ! lol
Qt Core: yes, but it got logged for posterity
Arisia Vita: as a former scribe, I could edit it... :)
Bertram Jacobus: so he is / you are aware of the risk - again : very brave qt ! :o)
Bertram Jacobus: lol - all try to help
Bertram Jacobus: nice as usual ... :-)
Arisia Vita: risk....makes me think of a quote...
Bertram Jacobus: and all avatar´s eyes on qt ... ;-)
Arisia Vita: To laugh is to risk appearing the fool. To weep is to risk appearing sentimental. To reach out to another is to risk involvement. To expose feelings is to risk exposing your true self. To place your ideas, your dreams, before a crowd is to risk their loss. To love is to risk being loved in return. To live is to risk dying. To hope is to risk despair. To try is to risk failure.
Arisia Vita: But risks must be taken, because the greatest hazard in life is to risk nothing. They may avoid suffering and sorrow, But they cannot learn, feel, change, grow, love, or live. Chained by their attitudes, they are slaves, they have forfeited their freedom. Only a person who risks is free.
Bertram Jacobus: i read parts of that today in a profile ! ... :-)
Bertram Jacobus: but the way to enlightenment - do you think, that that is also risky ?
Qt Core: nice
Arisia Vita: risk is part of life, which is what one will experience on the road to enlightenment
Arisia Vita: and I've said more here than I usually do... :)
Arisia Vita: wonder why?
Arisia Vita: ah, not so shy around guys...
Bertram Jacobus: sometimes such happens (?) ... :-)
Yakuzza Lethecus: Well, even not taking a risk is possibly a risk in itself as you put it.
Bertram Jacobus: and i´m not so shy, more or "only" : slow ... (and i like it) ! ... ;-)
Arisia Vita: the first girl who shows up will bring my silence with her... :)
Bertram Jacobus: but when you consider the worst cases - is there then still a risk ? i don´t feel it so much ... (?)
Arisia Vita: worst cases of what Bert?
Bertram Jacobus: of everything. when we have to make decisions for example
Arisia Vita: if risk is always with us, then I would say yes
Bertram Jacobus: and we think about how everything might develop
Bertram Jacobus: ok. then it may be that it is possible to have no or much less bad feelings about "risks" ...
Yakuzza Lethecus: i think i am in the need of concrete examples
Arisia Vita: good idea Yak
Qt Core: (silent as guilty of not taking the risk mentioned in the quote)
Bertram Jacobus: when i don´t fear a life in poverty the risk that it might be so is not so bad anymore
--BELL--
Yakuzza Lethecus: in my case it could be ,,the risk" of just starting to study in my sparetime of work, while i fear that the stress result that i fall into old learning habits that didn´t work well with my longterm memory and use of the subjects
Arisia Vita: ah Bert, so the secret is how to tame your fear?
Arisia Vita: does money bring happiness?
Arisia Vita: does poverty bring sadness?
Arisia Vita: what is there to fear?
Yakuzza Lethecus: connectedness brings happyness i think
Arisia Vita: love
Yakuzza Lethecus: at least to some extend
Yakuzza Lethecus: that´s a very special form of connectedness :)
Bertram Jacobus: i think it´s the difference between suffering and feeling well. and yes : fear seems to be the deeper angle to me
Yakuzza Lethecus: play as being means to be connected to a lot of ppl whom are compassionate in their own fields of experience
Arisia Vita: The more connections I make, the further I can reach across the world finding inspiration in every person that I meet - Matt Pyke
Bertram Jacobus: and i agree with you yaku and ari : love and being connected help very much
Yakuzza Lethecus: and especially the abiltiy to COMMUNICATE THESE SUBJECTS IN ITSELF
Yakuzza Lethecus: sry for the caps but it´s an really important point for me
Bertram Jacobus: interesting yaku ... and "accepted" :-)
Arisia Vita: then be glad for the caps, not sorry, they help you express yourself
Yakuzza Lethecus: since i don´t know ppl in real life whom wouldn´t just smile and go away on a lot of subjects around play as being that are contemplative based
Yakuzza Lethecus: while they still go to a bar in the evening and get drunk
Yakuzza Lethecus: the security to communicate the own thoughts and to get criticism
Yakuzza Lethecus: sometimes i´ve been thinking that there should not only be a human right on free speech but the right to have communication on the base of the own experience
Arisia Vita: at PaB we find wisdom in the gentle breeze which blows here, bar are often too noisy...
Arisia Vita: There is probably more meaning in the sighing of the wind than in the screeching of a peacock.
Bertram Jacobus: would would be the difference of those both things yaku pls ? and isn´t the one (free speech) including the other (communication) ? only you need another person for it ?
Bertram Jacobus: what*
Yakuzza Lethecus: no i don´t think it´s the same, because you can say your opinion
Yakuzza Lethecus: but you often don´t get an elaborated answer why ur opinion doesn´t work
Yakuzza Lethecus: a classic example is for me the subject when ppl have a political believe like ,,human beings should get a basic financial income just because they are there"
Arisia Vita: that is the advantage of sharing your opinion with many ears...each has a different viewpoint
Yakuzza Lethecus: my first thought is that ,,it doesn´t work" but i can´t fully explain ,,why"
Yakuzza Lethecus: even tho that i in principle like the idea
Arisia Vita: why would it not work?
Qt Core: the lirics of a song i love (with my translation in english: http://www.stumbleupon.com/stumbler/...view/13937954/
Arisia Vita: I like the idea too
Qt Core: and the relative video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBuP0oBGN70
Arisia Vita: ty Qt
Yakuzza Lethecus: i can´t even explain why, i can´t give away proper criticism and don´t know how to find the exact information where i personally see issues in such a complex matter
Qt Core: i loved it way before pab and it remind me about pab a lot
Yakuzza Lethecus: so often i get cought in things that i have an opinion about but no clear understanding
Yakuzza Lethecus: while seeing that other ppl have an opinion but no clear understanding either
Qt Core: and you don't things that undefined thoughts should be told ?
--BELL--
Yakuzza Lethecus: well i of course think that they should
Qt Core: got it wrong then ;-)
Alfred Kelberry: hey guys
Bertram Jacobus: hi boxy ! :-)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey alf
Qt Core: hi alfred
Arisia Vita: welcome Alfred
Alfred Kelberry: yaku, you keep playing? :)
Bertram Jacobus: but when i come back to the point of allowance of free speech and free communication i still see the one (communication) included in the other (free speech) sry yaku (?) ...
Arisia Vita: ty for that link Qt, I love to hear/see songs in different languages
Arisia Vita: The sounds are all as different As the lands from which they came And though our words are all unique Our hearts are still the same Love in any language Straight from the heart Pulls us all together Never apart And once we learn to speak it All the world will hear Love in any language Fluently spoken here
Qt Core: if you wander around that miniblog you may find a lot of them, especially in italian, obviously
Arisia Vita: ty again
Arisia Vita: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9X8Eb_H0HZQ
Arisia Vita: so nice to see the emotions in their faces as they sing
Arisia Vita: even when I can't understand their words, I feel their emotions
Arisia Vita: italian is a beautiful language
Qt Core: while i understand it it usually distract me too mutch, i may be too used to text only communication ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: yaku ? did you see / read my question ? ... ;-)
Yakuzza Lethecus: i still wonder how to give a proper answer, i still don´t see it as the same since the right on having communication on the base of the own experience is something different for me then the precious right to say ,,what you think"
Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s for me the right on gaining cricitcal reflection as well :)
Bertram Jacobus: but you can´t force others to do so always
Bertram Jacobus: hi dash :-)
Yakuzza Lethecus: exactly and not everyone has an expereriential base to communicate with everyone on all levels
Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s tricky,
Bertram Jacobus: so a "right" of critical reflection seems not possible to me
Qt Core: that's the free speach right plust the free don't listen one, yaku ;-)
Qt Core: Hi dash
Dash Earthboy: greetings everyone
Bertram Jacobus: nods to qt ;-)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey dash
Qt Core: sadly i have to go , bye all and have fun (still no girls)
Yakuzza Lethecus: take care qt
Dash Earthboy: bye Qt
Bertram Jacobus: lol bye qt have a nice time ! :-)
Arisia Vita: bye Qt, be well and happy
Arisia Vita: still no girls here... :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s really a slippery slope for me as well
Bertram Jacobus: hehe. enough girls in my mind ... (!) :o)
Yakuzza Lethecus: ppl of course also have ,,a right on not to listen"
Dash Earthboy: the talk about looking for girls reminds me of Myspace chats
Bertram Jacobus: that´s it !
Yakuzza Lethecus: and of course not to share thoughts with everyone
Bertram Jacobus: yes ...
--BELL--
Alfred Kelberry: meep!
Dash Earthboy: i'm multi-tasking right now: listening to Car Talk on NPR, installing Solaris 11, browsing the Mensa Bulletin, and catching up with y'all
Yakuzza Lethecus: i think we all multitask a lot dash :)
Bertram Jacobus: i try to reduce it as much as possible
Bertram Jacobus: i don´t like it so much
Yakuzza Lethecus: but at least we get reminded of it around here, to mediate at least once in a while
Bertram Jacobus: i even consider it as unhealthy - may be i´m wrong or only old fashioned ... ;-)
Arisia Vita: I agree with you Bert
Alfred Kelberry: solaris? what for?
Dash Earthboy: funny...i think i'm in almost constant meditative state
Dash Earthboy: mindfulness doesn't lend itself to too much concentration on one thing
Dash Earthboy: @alfred...solaris to run NetBeans and MySQL projects on
Alfred Kelberry: omg, netbeans :/
Dash Earthboy: yes and Toad too!
Bertram Jacobus: i heared that scientists found differences in the brains of the older and younger generations related to awareness, but don´t know what it is exactly. sry. fitting (or not) to the "new media" and all the influence amount of these modern times ...
Alfred Kelberry: i thought only sun employers used netbeans :)
Alfred Kelberry: forcefully :)
Dash Earthboy: yes ert and I find it fascinating how some in SL identify me as "younger" and some identify me as "older" when it is usually inaccurate on their part
Dash Earthboy: *Bert
Bertram Jacobus: may i ask how old you are dash ? :-)
Dash Earthboy: i'm a young soul....I caame to this strange world
Bertram Jacobus: pls feel free to say no or nothing lol
Bertram Jacobus: ah. or answer in such a way ok :o)
Alfred Kelberry: *zaps berty* :P
Bertram Jacobus: i´m really old (!) ... at least i feel like that in a way ... :-)
Yakuzza Lethecus: when my problem is to sit down with a book and not to think of the content of the book but about the number of pages i still have to read while i concously think at the same time that i shouldn´t think of the number of pages since i am not thinking of the content and this kind of thinking becomes habitiual but the confusion about the knowledge and being cought up in such a thought feels hard to communicate it and to get for example reflections on how to really change something that is already seen as a problem and the solution is ,,just think of the content" but it doesn´t work so it becomes a metathough on habits and their creation somehow
Bertram Jacobus: hey lugh ! :-)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey lugh
Arisia Vita: welcome Lugh
Dash Earthboy: hey Lugh
Lugh Fehr: hellow
Arisia Vita: (still all males) :)
Lugh Fehr: :)
Alfred Kelberry: hi, lugh
Arisia Vita: wonder why the girls stayed away from this session?
Dash Earthboy: can you expand on that Yaku?
Bertram Jacobus: i try to avoid or at least to seperate such meta ideas as often as possible ...
Bertram Jacobus: chance ari i guess
Yakuzza Lethecus: well possibly with a lot of words but not too much content, it´s about how habits start and at which point i actually change those
Dash Earthboy: pull out a cigar and join the men's club i guess
Yakuzza Lethecus: how to ,,just change" or ,,just do"
Dash Earthboy: :)
Alfred Kelberry: i warn you: i don't smoke nor drink beer :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: getting ,,just started" and not thinking about problems that ,,could happen in the end" before it even started
Arisia Vita: nor I Alfred
Yakuzza Lethecus: well that´s even a reminder to the initial subject of ,,taking risks"
Lugh Fehr: maby let your self just thinck about the no of pages after a while youl get boarded from it all the juice will have run out
Lugh Fehr: is i understood you properly
Dash Earthboy: whee!
--BELL--
Arisia Vita: rl calls, ty all for a very enjoyable session, be well and happy till we meet again, which I hope will be soon...
Bertram Jacobus: i enjoyed this session very much - ty all ! ...
Arisia Vita: bye for now...
Lugh Fehr: byebye
Yakuzza Lethecus: take care arisia
Dash Earthboy: have a good one ari
Bertram Jacobus: bye ari ... :-)
Bertram Jacobus: i leave, too ...
Lugh Fehr: byebye
Dash Earthboy: ok bye bert!
Alfred Kelberry: oops, got distracted in IM for a minute and everyone left :)
Bertram Jacobus: be happy ! ty ! :-)
Dash Earthboy: yep boxy, it's hard to keep up with some changes
Alfred Kelberry: true :)
Alfred Kelberry: ah, lugh is pink today :)
Alfred Kelberry: neat
Dash Earthboy: egypt, tunisia, gas prices, airline luggage
Lugh Fehr: its like a mood ring :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: yes they are suggesting that mubarak comes to germany in the usa
Yakuzza Lethecus: gas prices are 4 cents more expensive then yesterday for disel
Dash Earthboy: so Lugh you are feeling "in the pink" today? :)
Lugh Fehr: not passionet enugh to be red i lack zest for life today i still havent got up from my bed
Dash Earthboy: gas prices here are 4 cents less per gallon than a week ago
Dash Earthboy: i've seen shows where people use their computers while in bed to email and play virt games
Lugh Fehr: :) hehe
Yakuzza Lethecus: Well i used sl in my bed and a lot of ppl consider it as a game :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: Actually sometimes i have the feeling that i should be more playful with secondlife.
Yakuzza Lethecus: But even real life.
Dash Earthboy: yes Yaku, even the graphics requirements for SL are geared toward gamers
Yakuzza Lethecus: I can get cought in unsolvable subjects very easily.
Lugh Fehr: sl is like rl it give you the impresstion its packed whit exitment and things to do ... but it mooves to slow and evrywheres the same hehehe (i know pessemistic)
Dash Earthboy: in 1994 I was watching "A Hard Days Night" on Quicktime running on Windows 3.1
Yakuzza Lethecus: 2 hrs ago someone was telling me that ,,i would have said that computers don´t consume much energy"
Yakuzza Lethecus: but i think and think that i know that i never said that
Dash Earthboy: and I've been watching DVDs on less graphics power since 1998
Yakuzza Lethecus: so i before the start of the session i was even thinking on the validity of our working memory
Dash Earthboy: Yaku, wouldn't it be nice if we could have memory tests like my computer does on each day's boot?
Yakuzza Lethecus: when i had my first computer with DVB card the card had a hardware mpeg2 decoder which also was usable for dvd´s
Yakuzza Lethecus: sometimes i also wonder about the integrity of my memory
Alfred Kelberry: dash, some tests can take quite a while :)
Dash Earthboy: yes alf, some tests take longer than solving the original problems would have :)
Lugh Fehr: well when im happy i only am able to remember hapy memories when im sad i only can remember sad ones
Dash Earthboy: kind of like sex?
Dash Earthboy: @alf, not you Lugh!
Lugh Fehr: hehehe
Lugh Fehr: and when im horny i only remember horny memories
Dash Earthboy: Yaku, how do you measure the integrity of your memory?
--BELL--
Yakuzza Lethecus: not sure i really can
Dash Earthboy: i keep very detailed journals and even save chat sessions :)
Alfred Kelberry: dash :)
Alfred Kelberry: that's a bit too much for me :)
Dash Earthboy: i don't rely on PaB to record it for me :)
Alfred Kelberry: if i remember what i did yesterday, i'm fine :)
Dash Earthboy: hey cybersufi!
Yakuzza Lethecus: well, rl journaling is something i was never able to do but yes in secondlife i sometimes appreaciate the existence of valid chats
Lugh Fehr: hey sufi
cybersufi Resident: afternoon all
Dash Earthboy: oh Yaku I've been journaling since I was a teen, long before I started using computers to help with that
Alfred Kelberry: oh, phone...
Yakuzza Lethecus: since i fear that memory can be changed and shifted and the evalutation of expereinces and subjects based on the appearance of the ppl
Lugh Fehr: do you reread them dash?
Dash Earthboy: hey sunshine
Sunshine Vayandar: hi there
Lugh Fehr: hey sun
Dash Earthboy: i refer to them sometimes Lugh
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey sun
Dash Earthboy: and some have helped me in writing my memoirs
Sunshine Vayandar: how is everyone
Yakuzza Lethecus: i often have the feeling that i can´t get the essence of a moment into words
Dash Earthboy: i belong to a few writers groups in Nashville
Yakuzza Lethecus: my picture of the situation might differ from it´s meaning to someone else
Dash Earthboy: sympathy for you Yaku :)
Dash Earthboy: i think your grasp of things is very important Yaku
Lugh Fehr: most situations ar e half lifeless
Dash Earthboy: it is your perspective...your eyes, your ears, your senses, your life
Yakuzza Lethecus: hello snow
Snow Wolfhunter: hello
Lugh Fehr: hellow snow
Dash Earthboy: hi snow
Yakuzza Lethecus: have you been here before ?
Snow Wolfhunter: no
Snow Wolfhunter: thank you
Sunshine Vayandar: hi Snow ;) Hi Dash ;)
Dash Earthboy: wow, sunshine, snow, ...where's rainy?
Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s all going to be logged and saved on our website
Lugh Fehr: what ever happened to the greek banquets ,free flowing wine followed by orgies?
Lugh Fehr: hehee dash
Sunshine Vayandar: let's say Lugh means rain
Dash Earthboy: your call Sun
Lugh Fehr: :)
Sunshine Vayandar: hm?
Dash Earthboy: see Yaku, that's a perspective thing
cybersufi Resident: A common problem even the best writers have faced , steping down an 5D experience into 2d langauge
Lugh Fehr: 5d?
cybersufi Resident: all the senses, common sense
Dash Earthboy: Lugh, if you'll provide the orgies, I'll provide some Greek yogurt and sparkling grape juice!
Lugh Fehr: the world is to christian flippin pope
cybersufi Resident: actually its more like 8 if you count emotional, intellectual and essential.
Sunshine Vayandar: ;)
Lugh Fehr: essential whats that?
Dash Earthboy: Yaku, your point about committing onther sensory experience to words is exactly what won me a good grade in philosophy class
cybersufi Resident: the essence that Yaku finds difficult to capture
Lugh Fehr: ohh
Dash Earthboy: I showed the prof that I could have a religious experience with my God that I could not put into words that would accurately describe the experience
Dash Earthboy: but that didn't make the experience any less real
Sunshine Vayandar: guys I need to go again ;(
Lugh Fehr: :( bye sun
Sunshine Vayandar: trying to solve some disputes
cybersufi Resident: bye Sun keep shining
Dash Earthboy: okay, bye Sun
Sunshine Vayandar: u2 ;))
Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, actually these things often let me grasp to listen or read a littlebit in the direction of philosophical issues
Yakuzza Lethecus: like the subject of a basic income and quality might let me hear a talk about rawls
Yakuzza Lethecus: then i think about egalitarianism and since we are a global world it can´t work nationwide
Yakuzza Lethecus: a lot of unelaborated fragments
cybersufi Resident: consider this meeting? trying to explain this to someone with no computer experience
Lugh Fehr: a moving painting?
Dash Earthboy: yes cy!
Yakuzza Lethecus: up to things like ,,did we need communism to have a ,,good capitalism" ?
cybersufi Resident: Yaku there is a way round your dilema
Dash Earthboy: and, then there are the techno-phobes who discredit any computer experience
--BELL--
cybersufi Resident: you could call it imprinting
Dash Earthboy: not sure there is a good capitalism
Lugh Fehr: yup dash
Dash Earthboy: imagine all the people sharing all the world
Dash Earthboy: you may say i'm a dreamer
Dash Earthboy: but i'm not the only one
Lugh Fehr: :)
cybersufi Resident: the buddhist use this to maintain there texts, when a copy is worn out another is produced but it must be done by someone in the same state as the original author, therefore transmitting essence into the work
Yakuzza Lethecus: i don´t think ur the only dreamer dash
Dash Earthboy: cy that is something that was lost on bible translators
cybersufi Resident: well not surprizing as it was not written by a single author
Lugh Fehr: i got lust for lust of life
Lugh Fehr: hehee
Dash Earthboy: i like that Irving Stone novel: Lust for Life Lugh
Lugh Fehr: lust for lust for life i dont have lust for life but i lust after it
Dash Earthboy: btw Cy...some Bible thumpers say it is the work of one author: God
cybersufi Resident: well if you put it in the correct context there is no other author lol
Lugh Fehr: hehe
Yakuzza Lethecus: yes :)
cybersufi Resident: do you know Nasurdin?
Lugh Fehr: the singer?
cybersufi Resident: no the character of many jokes
Lugh Fehr: nope
cybersufi Resident: oh well i will introduce you to him
Lugh Fehr: :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasreddin
Dash Earthboy: friends, I must prepare for the Quaker mtg here on Second Life in a little while...gotta grab some breakfast first
Dash Earthboy: so farewell for now...
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye everyone
cybersufi Resident: Nasrudin is a wise man and a fool and his anttic mimic the way the human mind works
Lugh Fehr: byebye :)