2010.11.01 01:00 - Religious propaganda related to animals and animism

The Guardian for this meeting was Cosmicflower Ushimawa. The comments are by Cosmicflower Ushimawa.

         Traditions;

Qt Core: Hi cal... you are making me feel underdressed ;-)
Calvino Rabeni: QT - hello - I like the casual look you're wearing
Qt Core: ty
Calvino Rabeni: Do they play with these large orange squashes, where you live, QT?
Qt Core: no, sad;y the only thing i may like about halloween (i don't like it as it isn't an italian tradition and we get only the commercial part of it, we have many similar traditions almost entirely forgotten
Qt Core: i was thinking about that yesterday when i sam many plastic ones in a shop
Calvino Rabeni: Can you mention one of those traditions?
Qt Core: the most common are visiting cemeteries and having prayers or mass in them
Qt Core: but there are more ancient ones that involve group of people going around singing songs in which you can spot an "upper" level of catholicism and a lower level coming from pre-christian rites
Qt Core: all of this is tied with the earth going to sleep/dieing for the winter
Qt Core: the brief period between the end and the restart of the "agricultural year"

--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: Many traditions have those layers.
Calvino Rabeni: Carnival perhaps also.
Qt Core: yes, most christian celebration (and even the days we celebrate the "stronger" saints) predate pagan celebration
Qt Core: or in some cases just celebratye the same things, usually tied with nature rythms
Calvino Rabeni: There are some traditions where things get turned upside down or reversed
Calvino Rabeni: Or the shadowy things are released for a night
Qt Core: there is this book: http://www.amazon.com/Ours-histoire-...599737&sr=1-22 (can't find it in english now) that speak about the thausand years long fight of the chirch to detrone the bear as the "mightiest" animal in europe, substituting it with the lion and its religiois substrate (being the bear almost a god in celtic/pagan mitology
Qt Core: it start with an interesting fact, europe is the only continent which "mightiest" animal isn't from the continent itself (not in historical times, that is)
Calvino Rabeni: The Lion not from europe
Qt Core: that's the point
Qt Core: it's not "natural"
Calvino Rabeni: So it was a classy import, a little like having Ferrari cars in the USA

--BELL--

Getting know to Zitkala-Sa

Qt Core: more like inposing italian suits to native american based on western civilization superiority
Calvino Rabeni: I can't see the analogy
Calvino Rabeni: didn't they find the lion in foreign lands and bring it back, perhaps with the crusade wars?
Qt Core: yes, but the idea of it being a better "animal king" was pushed by the church to fight the pagan animal king
Calvino Rabeni: The bear was no doubt all too common
Calvino Rabeni: and earthy
Calvino Rabeni: a scavenger even
Calvino Rabeni: omnivouous
Calvino Rabeni: not so noble and finicky as a feline
Qt Core: so paesant and common people would know and fear it not knowing what and what he could do about the lions
Qt Core: thinks about 1000/1500years ago with the big forests, the bear would be a wild beast not a thief
Qt Core: hiu Freud
Freud Jungsten: osiyo
Calvino Rabeni: Good evening, Freud
Freud Jungsten: So what is the topic for today?
Freud Jungsten: Good morning.... frowns
Freud Jungsten: 3 thrity am here.
Calvino Rabeni: Religious propaganda related to animals and animism
Freud Jungsten: Sounds fun.
Qt Core: bear vs lion, how the first was dethroned by the latter as the "animal king" of eurobe (with the helo of the church) http://www.amazon.com/Ours-histoire-...599737&sr=1-22
Qt Core: anmy orrendous typing
Freud Jungsten: Sounds like it would be an interesting read....
Qt Core: but sadly i have to go now as i have quite a heavy day approaching :-(
Freud Jungsten: But not liketly to make it to the top of my list anytime soon.
Qt Core: bye all and have fun
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Hi <3<3<3
Calvino Rabeni: Bye, Qt
Freud Jungsten: ciao.
Calvino Rabeni: And hello Cos <333
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ahh, here is halloween things ;)
Freud Jungsten: osiyo
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Hi Cal and Freud *** <3<3<3 ***
Freud Jungsten: I ended up babysitting last night.
Calvino Rabeni: What's likely to make the top of your reading list, Freud?
Freud Jungsten: Was good really.
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ah ;) how come Freud?
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: how old baby is?
Freud Jungsten: Right now, I am fninishing off teh works of Zitkala Sa.
Freud Jungsten: Then I have some reading to do on the history of statistics... smiles
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Zitkala Sa? what is that, please?
Freud Jungsten: My neices and nephews are between that ages of 6 and 1
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;) asked about baby, because I do babysitting all the time, I have soon 8 months year old baby boy <3
Freud Jungsten: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zitkala-Sa
Freud Jungsten: I have no kids myselof.
Freud Jungsten: She was one of the pivitol Native American Academics.
Freud Jungsten: Also known as redbird.
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ah, now I see, thank You Freud ;)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I have not hear from this, but White Eagle is very familiar with me
Freud Jungsten: One of my heroines.
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: <3

--BELL--

And White Eagle

Freud Jungsten: Which White Eagle?
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm, this white eagle what I see, is as an light being also in human body
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I have feel its been lived huge long time ago
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and there have come other white eagles after this one
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: some people have channelled some books from this white eagle
Freud Jungsten: There were a couple of famous White Eagle Navitve Americn tribal cheifs.
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ah, I do not know the history, but I have only the name and knowledge
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: awareness of it
Freud Jungsten: OK.
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: wondering if this one was some of these two
Freud Jungsten: Could be.... One was Ponca I am sure.
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I have a feel this one have been huge long time ago when having that life time
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: on earth
Freud Jungsten: But I am sure there were many other White eagles before the two famous ones.
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I have feel this one have been before
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and nowdays someone is challenging this "light being`s words" to books
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I once wondered if they know this person is living a normal human life these days

About enlightement
Freud Jungsten: What do you mean?
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: not only being in "light body"
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: well
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: people do think them masters
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: live in light
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: not rebirth anymore
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but in my opinion, we are in light, but also in human body
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: at the same time
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: thinking
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: what kind of master do not come "down" here to help others
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: lol
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: this point of view might be a little different from original enlightened beings -thinking
Freud Jungsten: I think enlightenment is relative...
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes, there might be many different kind of enlightements
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and many in life time
Freud Jungsten: And not really sure I see the value of it either.... seems sorta selfish to me.
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hehe
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: how come selfish?
Freud Jungsten: I can seek enlightenment..... and I alone get the rewards.... If I seek a cure for cancer, I help many.
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ah, I disagree
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: if You find enlightement
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: its not only You who get rewards
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: you became to be Love
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and all others also get that love from You
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: its radiation
Freud Jungsten: So you are saying you can't love unless you are enlightened?
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: no
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I did not say so
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)
Calvino Rabeni: Plus I think, no one managed anything like enlightenment without walking that path together with many others and thus at least being good company or help
Freud Jungsten: Oh OK.
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes, thats right
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: people Need each others
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: thats why we are here
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: to help
Freud Jungsten: OK.... but I still see teh curing cancer thing as more about others than self.
Freud Jungsten: But I understand that standard has its own problems.
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm, but it is also needed to help one-self too,
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: so that can help others
Freud Jungsten: True....
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I do not see it selfish
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and also raises up a question
Freud Jungsten: Maybe you cant get to a point of really wanting to help others unless you have reached some point of enlightenement.
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: why someone is needed to help others huge much
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: meaning, does it gives one-self satisfaction?
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: helping can be also selfish
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: feel to be importat
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: important when "helping" "others"
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I think
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: In everything there is the most important to be genuine
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: unconditional giving
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: without reasons for own good

--BELL--

About cacer
Freud Jungsten: Yes, a lot of charity is down to make the giver feel better, not to actually do good.
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hehe, yeap
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: there seems to be many sides on things ;)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: on week-end I got some news from my mother
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: they have found something from her brests
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and she is needed to go again to doctor
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: to futher analysis
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: we do not know if its cancer
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: or not
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but might be
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Hey Yaku
Freud Jungsten: My mother has beat breast cancer twice now.
Calvino Rabeni: Mine has it now
Freud Jungsten: Made her even more arrogant.
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and I started to think of it
Yakuzza Lethecus: good monring
Calvino Rabeni: but decided not to do treatment
Freud Jungsten: lung cancernot breast sorry.
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: it might come from gulty feel
Freud Jungsten: oisyo.
Calvino Rabeni: as it is slow growing
Freud Jungsten: Strange.
Calvino Rabeni: just to keep an eye on it and not try to "eradicate" it is the best policy
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I have heart all cancer comes from feeling guilty
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: breasts what comes to motherhood
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: so I just said to my mom
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: You are the Best Mother on the Earth
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: what if people start to heal that reason where cancer comes
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: not the symptom
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: people should realice they are not guilty
Freud Jungsten: Glad you have that relatinoship with your mom.
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: before they get ill
Freud Jungsten: Guilt is a very odd thing... very different to many people.
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yeah, but so easy to blaim one-self
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: from something what should not
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: its good to be aware of it
Freud Jungsten: And alot of folks feel it easier to blame others.
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: for sure, yes
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and them others think its truely their fault if someone feels bad
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: should be aware not to suffer from others suffering
Calvino Rabeni: Or from one's own
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: also yes, Cal

Empathy;
Freud Jungsten: But I value empathy.
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: empathy is different ;)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes
Freud Jungsten: So I think there are good things about sharing guilt.
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: its like a angel wings to tye around to people who is suffering
Calvino Rabeni begin_of_the_skype_highlighting     end_of_the_skype_highlighting: Sharing would put a different light on it
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: its more like comforting, than getting into suffering
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: its like taking away the suffering
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: healing
Freud Jungsten: Ok... I think we mean the same thing then.
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hehe, yes ;)
Calvino Rabeni: If I may ask ... what do you do when the baby cries ..?
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I take him into my arms
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: pet him and kiss him
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: give him love
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: put my arms around him
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)
Calvino Rabeni: :)

--BELL--

Breastfeeding;
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: babies get ill many times
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: when getting know to them viruses
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I am today also going with baby to doctor
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: he have that "thing" in his nose
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and he do not know how to get it out
Freud Jungsten: IF you breast feed them, their imune systems avoids that sort of things.
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and then it goes to lungs
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I have brest feeded him now almost 8 months
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but I have to say he have not been so much ill than others I have
Freud Jungsten: Great then.
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: with this one I have had milk more
Freud Jungsten: Much more natural that way and I think healthy long term.
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: maby its gone to his ears
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ear infection
Freud Jungsten: And great for teh mother as well.
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes, its wonderfull thing
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: baby is still kind of part of mother
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: with that connection, eaven if already got born
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm, how are You Yaku?
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: not seen for a long time
Freud Jungsten: I was not breast fed and I htink i suffered for it.
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: every mother makes the best they can I am sure
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: if I remember right I was hard to take that breast
Freud Jungsten: You would hope so.
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: not big ones, and full of milk
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: was not able to suck
Freud Jungsten: I have not and probably won't end up having my own babies....
Freud Jungsten: But I think it is important.
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I am not sure how much there is that importance in it truely at the end
Freud Jungsten: I think it is a big nutritional thing.
Freud Jungsten: It is healthy for the mother to return her to normal weight.
Freud Jungsten: And healthy for the bond.
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm, but I also know some illness they come earlier or later at the end finally
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: people get to know them viruses
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: like tasting them
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: to get know them
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and resistance
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: immunity
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: sorry
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I think maby its more about feeling safe
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: with babies
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: when brest feeding
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: more
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: maby it affects more to emotional way
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: does it makes any sense?

--BELL--

Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ahh, but now it seems to be 11.30 am here in finland and I need to bring my baby to doctor
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;D
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: we have appointment at 12
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: so
Freud Jungsten: OK.. take care... and hope he gets well.
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: it was good to see You all ;)
Calvino Rabeni: <333 Cosmicflower :)
Freud Jungsten: do na da go hv i
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: *** <3<3<3 ***
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: bye
Calvino Rabeni: I need to go also .... the hour is late
Calvino Rabeni: Goodbye Freud, Yaku, take care
Freud Jungsten: Ciao
Freud Jungsten: Small crowd as this time.
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye cal

Thoughts about parenthood;
Yakuzza Lethecus: i don´t plan to be a parent still it´s interesting to read sometime
Freud Jungsten: I think I want ot have kids..... but I would not be the mother in the relationship.
Freud Jungsten: I just dont ever see using my uterus.......
Freud Jungsten: But we will see when the biological clock starts ticking.
Yakuzza Lethecus: i once talked to someone who mentioned that her mother was 47 when she was born
Freud Jungsten: wow
Freud Jungsten: so I still have 24 years to think about it.
Yakuzza Lethecus: i am not sure if i should even think about parenting roles, i know to many relationships that didn´t work out and being children surrounded by patterns where parent´s can´t show how to communicate and solve issues very well is harming for children as well
Freud Jungsten: Agreed.
Freud Jungsten: And being a same sex couple with children has its issues... so something that weighs on my mind.
Yakuzza Lethecus: i often think that parent´s shouldn´t live ,,for the children" my mother always uses that as an excuse that she didn´t do anything with her life
Yakuzza Lethecus: and i only recall her sadness and the negativity in their relationship
Yakuzza Lethecus: it was good when they split and got divorced
Freud Jungsten: Some women are forced into roles that are not very good for them.
Freud Jungsten: But you can be a good mother and a good woman of business as well.
 

--BELL--

Freud Jungsten: You just have to have support from your partner.
Yakuzza Lethecus: you don´t have to be a good business woman, still openminded and reflective towards the phenomena we´re surrounded by
Yakuzza Lethecus: like my parents both complain about there computer skills, here in sl i usually meet ppl whom are by far older then me and even my parents still they don´t seem to have these technological issues and aren´t complaining about their age so much
Freud Jungsten: It is a cultural thing.
Yakuzza Lethecus: subcultural
Yakuzza Lethecus: germans aren´t generally like that
Yakuzza Lethecus: i have a rough time finding socio cultural layers that describe this well
Yakuzza Lethecus: anyway, i am a bit back and forth towards complaining about myself, not taking enough responsibility and the sense of what exposure changes me implicitly
Yakuzza Lethecus: well, nice to see you this morning
Freud Jungsten: You have to learn to live.
Freud Jungsten: Ok... ciao.
Yakuzza Lethecus: take care, i got to go
Freud Jungsten: Take care.